My Climbing Training Secret (Dave MacLeod Response)

[@climbermacleod]

Hi Mani, Thanks for the discussion. It was great. A couple of quick stats since you were discussing this. I wish I was 176cm tall! I'm 172cm and 69kgs on a mixed diet if I am careful with calories. If I am not careful with calories then I go to mid 70s kgs and don't stop rising! I was 73kgs at 16 years old. A lot of fat. On a ketogenic diet I maintained 62-63kgs ad-libitum with no effort to control calories whatsoever, for as long as I do the diet. I feel that this presents a challenge to the idea that set point is purely genetic (not to mention the population level changes!). My ape index is plus 3cm which maybe helps a bit to offset being short and heavy. I would add a couple of points: 1. The concept of my secrets video was not that breadth of experience was important in place of finger strength, body weight, technique and the other factors in your formula. I don' think those things are secrets. They are a given. Rather, the idea of training secrets was something 'else' on top of rather than instead of these factors. Of course I absolutely agree that finger strength is absolutely core in ability to climb hard and that is why I go to such great lengths to optimise it as we all do. 2. I think it is important to be careful with the definition of breadth of experience which is distinct from experience itself and perhaps I could have underlined this in my video. Its not numbers of moves, time spent climbing. Its those things multiplied by the different situations ad environments in which that experience is gathered. This is a critical distinction. 3. Breadth of experience sits 'upstream' of the fundaments of climbing. It exerts an influence on several of the factors in the formula you displayed. It improves your finger strength by exposing you to different hold types and balancing your strength across hold types (to give one example). It assists with the conditioning by allowing you to provide a more even stress across different muscle groups, energy systems etc, and of course it impacts technique the most. Technique is underrated!

[@ManitheMonkey]

Thanks so much for your input Dave! I just realised I translated 5,8feet into cm (which apparently is 176cm), instead of 5foot8inch, which is around 172cm, thanks for clearing that up, I'm a dumbass with height scales :P Good points all the way! Greetings from another short and heavy dude, and keep up the amazing video work!

[@Jeremysamways1]

@@ManitheMonkey this just shows what an awesome guy Dave is. You two guys have the best climbing content on KZbin.

[@ivancsoisti]

And how do you pronounce your name, Dave? 🤓

[@projectshoe]

Istvan Ivancso if you say 'mac loud' quickly you'll just about have it

[@Baum17]

Surely top level performance is highly genetically influenced. However there is also the factor of hard work. The best of the best usually have both the genetic gift and the work ethic of trying hard and pushing themselves. When you compare Chris Sharma and Alex Megos it seems like they couldn't be more different. Sharma claims he never did any structured training when he was at his prime while Megos started following a structured training regime quite early. However what matters more than how you structure your training is that you are trying hard and pushing yourself which is something both of them do or did. You can show up to the gym 5 times per week if you aren't challenging yourself it won't yield the results that someone gets who goes to the crag and just crushes the hardest routes or boulders. Most people aren't even close to their genetic potential and the way they could change that is by getting into the habit of trying hard. The caveat of this is that there is also the flip side of trying too hard and getting injured or burning yourself out and getting tired of climbing. Most of us aren't aiming to climb 9c anyway so we can allow ourselves some time to reach our goals and improve in a healthy kind of way that allows for longevity in the sport as well.

[@alexandreevrard9219]

Amen

[@samferrec6255]

Magnus Midtbø often talks about trying really hard. And about continuing through the pain when he wants to quit. Both of these things show how important mental fortitude is.

[@seanmacdonald8476]

I will be wrapping up my first year of climbing come the new year. I've bought in pretty hard to Dave's philosophy, and yours too, that to improve as a beginner time on the wall is of utmost importance. I have held off on finger specific training since I still find gains while projecting. I like the factors in your equation, all topics in Dave's book that you mentioned. Something you and Dave seem to be quite good at is timing. Knowing yourself well enough to gauge where you stand with each of the performance requirements necessary and making micro adjustments in your training to maximize potential. It's a logical but also abstract concept to me since I'm still so new I can't say I've experienced this. I don't think I've committed to knowing myself well enough physically and mentally before (oh and being honest with myself!). Videos like this help get me one step closer thx Mani!

[@suezix8689]

'Mac-loud' (as in 'the music is too loud') for pronunciation. Like Highlander. He's not just a multiple 9a climber, he's a super hard trad climber and soloist (8b+, the hardest solo in terms of grading, equal with Alex Huber).

[@grigorbrowning]

Sue Zix 🙂 👍🏻. He's arguably one of the best all-round climbers in the world - with particular strengths in trad and winter/mixed. Sport 9a (solo 8b+) / boulder 8B+(8C?) / trad E11 / winter XI-11. The short film "Dave MacLeod: 24/8" is well worth a watch - great wee showcase of him, his talents, and Scotland too.

[@seanmaguire9950]

I think Mani should have done a bit more research to be honest, saying Dave M has values good finger strength when he sells his own fingerboards sounds a bit silly.

[@charlottenordset3180]

Thank you for another great video. I love it when you use formulas and equations!

[@Benkkuful]

Hey it's me. The optimistic guy. Great video. I always love listening to these talks.

[@ManitheMonkey]

optimism is good! (:

[@evankimber5131]

I can't say I agree. I think the reason Dave posted his video under the vagueness of breadth of experience is because there is alot of wierd shit when it comes to being good at something. I think someone could train for their full life but never reach the 9a limit or 8c, E9 lines. I guess it depeneds where you feel good and excellent seperate as well. Like Achmed said if you compare Sharm and Megos they have very different structures. I feel like there is a huge unknown in alot of sports that cannot be trained for and that is the will and desire to push past human conditioning. I think this will never be quantifiable and same with human genetics at that these will be far more at the core of how far someone can go then, reach or finger strength. I think we are in an era where there is far too much focus on how strong my fingers are and I think a big reason is because we have put so much focus onto sport climbing overhanging routes.

[@keyboardathlete]

Great content as always Mani! My personal experience (185cm, 80kg, apeindex + 15cm, outdoor focused): weaknesses include low starts, endurance (leverage sucks!) and crimps. Fortitudes are reachy moves/dynos, compression and slopers. Being flexible compensates for crammed up moves very well.

[@DrEru]

What da hell +15 ape index. What are you an ape ???

[@MikkoHaavisto1]

Reach can't be just a positive... There are a lot of downsides. 1. the more reach you have, the more strength you need. Longer fingers --> holds are smaller for you, longer levers require more strength. You can't hang onto the same holds as a guy with same strength and mass as you but smaller hands. Longer arms --> longer levers require more strength. For example you do less pull-ups than a guy with shorter arms and same strength as you. 2. Longer limbs make it harder to do cramped moves.

[@dorisfranzmayr3855]

There's that..but with 1,53m I could have the strongest fingers, on a reachy move they wouldn't do me any good. I would say 1. the LESS reach you have, the more strength you need --> e.g. to hold on to those tiny/non existing holds i have to grab instead of the reachy one.

[@ManitheMonkey]

In my experience reach is mostly a positive. Obviously the trick is to be strong AND long, which is not easy I agree.

[@Baum17]

Reaching for a better hold is just a more obvious advantage than being able to have a more advantageous body position because of being smaller. Usually there is a sweet spot of having just enough reach for each individual problem. I'm over 190cm and it's definitely not better than being around 180cm most of the time. There is a reason why a competition climber like Jan Hojer is considered quite tall with 187 which is still 6 cm shorter than me and he often times struggles with his height on certain problems while other times he is able to skip complete sequences. Being so tall makes you less versatile but being 153cm isn't optimal either that's for sure.

[@rocknsnowryan9400]

There's a lot of variables with height and reach. That makes me think that some of these real young climbers might have an advantage due to their small fingers... and how are they going to react when they hit a plateau and then their fingers become adult sized.

[@didin9315]

I think the key point might be, that strength is trainable... reach not...

[@yushy5816]

Very interesting discussion. I enjoy these types of videos, great work as always.

[@saiyanveg]

9:14 "if you have heavy bones, you're screwed". I felt that in my soul. I'm 170cm weighing at 68kg with 7% body fat. I've tested multiple weight loss diets like being in caloric deficit(1500 cal per day), ketosis and carnivore-diet to name a few, to get my weight down to 62-60, but the lowest I could go was 67. So yeah I concluded my bone density must be high for someone my height, but I'm not gonna let that stop me.

[@Zhelyo]

I think you guys should do a collaboration : ) Would be some fascinating videos! Thanks for the insightful content as always.

[@danielbuijs8647]

My left finger is Injured now... Irritated tendon, not too bad. But I'm not at that 8a level you talk about yet, so other factors like endurance and power/body strength I also lack. Technique has always been my nr1 and I got really far with it. I'm young myself but not very strong in climbing naturally. In the beginning all the other guys I climbed with pulled themselves up 6c's and I was struggling on 6a (also yes, of course I was and am a bit jealous at their strength 🤣😅). However they never really used or trained proper technique, and I first perfected my technique before any strength/power training. Now, I'm getting stronger+technique very on point, and though I'm still not as strong as those guys, I'm able to send harder. Yeah being young and strong is cool, but a lot of young climbers then never take the time to learn good technique, and some of them don't even want to. So yes I feel like when you get into high 7's in sport for me (and higher of course) strength is getting more and more important, but strength, now that bouldering is so popular nowadays seems a little overrated, and technique underrated, and I feel like that sets a lot of climbers back. Especially when I see people campusboarding fanatically after half a year of climbing. Also I think proper movement is what makes climbing an authentic sport, where as a lot of non-climbers think it's just about pulling with your arms, it's so much more! Anyways, way too long of a comment 😅 great video! (Note: This comment and my experience with strength/proper movement account for sport climbing!)

[@scvrush]

Damn that was actually a really insightful and honest analysis. Haven’t seen a video like this in the community in a long time.

[@starfish258852]

Collab with Magnus Mitdbo

[@MrHerbRoller]

Excellent points brother. Down to the essence. What about moonboard substituting outdoor bouldering?

[@ManitheMonkey]

probably the closest it gets, as well as a well set 45degree system wall, but still it's quite far from actual outdoor bouldering I think.

[@Jsoccer1999]

Moonboarding will do it

[@Baum17]

Since you mentioned outdoor bouldering which are the best outdoor bouldering spots close to Vienna. I just moved here recently and it would be great to get some recommendations.

[@BrunoS1917]

That ovation is so beautiful

[@Ptitviaud1337]

Oh and : i definitely agree with what you say ; look at the results. But i would add, put them into context. What we're looking for isn't necessary absolute results, but more probably progression. For example, lets take Magnus Mitdbo : the guy is able to pull 50 one armers at the end of his session, which is really impressive in itself. He recently onsighted an indoor national final route. But he is also honest about the fact that he has been able to do a one armer since he's 12 yo and that he won those nationals 8 years in a row. Which suddenly shows that he is on an "usual" level for him. Also, sometimes, i'm a bit "skeptical" when i see training regimen that has been followed by "total beginner" for 6 months and that leads to a super huge progression in grades. The guy may just be a genetic freak in some cases :)

[@olivierdlc1833]

Tomoa Narasaki, one of the best boulderer in the world is 5 foot 8. Do you think bouldering required less ranged ?

[@ManitheMonkey]

5foot8 is pretty exactly my height which is not so bad for outdoor climbing, although not ideal which I think is between 5ft9 and 5ft10. Actually bouldering requires more range quite often. Of course you can also simply be very selective with your boulders, avoiding reachy problems and crush the rest with epic finger strength to body weight ratio. Indoors it's a different story since problems are set to be doable by all athletes.

[@olivierdlc1833]

​@@ManitheMonkey My bad he is actually 5 foot 7. I think in the modern kind of bouldering indoor setting, dynoland and gymnastic moves, height is less important. That where him and a lot of short japanese pro climber beat everyone else.

[@stephanlehner1989]

@@olivierdlc1833 He also has a + 10 apeindex ... so thats that

[@rudolphteperberry3888]

What's the advantage of outdoor bouldering over indoor bouldering for finger strength? I always feel I can get a lot more done in a session when indoors (but that also means I'm more likely to overdo it indoors). Is there something outdoors has that indoors doesn't that benefits finger strength?

[@darkdoom5324]

Hi Mani, I am a climbing teacher from France and I have a question. How to hold the 45° degree sloppers from the beatsmaker 2000 in order to be better at sloppers in general. I just did a 3 week training and I am looking for clues to improve the next one. Thanks you from your vids and grongrats for Modeselektor.

[@py2706]

Would flexibility be included in the "strategy/conditioning/mental" category??

[@AMM1998]

flexibility is rarely a limiting factor in someone's overall climbing unless we're looking at an outlier. If there are basic moves you can't do because you're immobile you need to fix that, but once you don't feel inhibited by your tight hips for example I wouldn't be sacrificing climbing time for it. I'm sure if you look at the top 20 best outdoor boulderers you'd find they all have solid base levels of flexibility but not many of them have out of the ordinary flexibility. Being able to transmit power throughout the entire range of motion is much more important than being able to reach exceptionally far but struggle with moving off of position.

[@sherif53790]

Should the formula be multiplied by Quality Rest? other sport disciplines and general welbeing require a strong focus on quality rest, however climbing culture still seems to embrace a no pain no gain motto. I understand that if you started climbing in your teens maybe your body doesnt need as much rest to recover but for climbers that started training in their 20/30s rest should play an essential part in getting consitent gains in fingerstrenth, power etc.

[@nathannelson1041]

Mani, I probably need to watch your video again, but where do things like core strength, power, endurance, and flexibility fit in to all of this? Are they under the header: “conditioning” in the catchall lump of “mental strength, conditioning, and strategy?” Not challenging you, I really like the formula and I’m thinking about how I can leverage it for improving my outdoor performance.

[@Astilath]

Oh my god. I'm 187cm and a reasonably lean 95kg! If you're a "heavy b@$¥@£d" that must mean I qualify as a "huge fat f#€%€r" 🤣🤣🤣

[@HatoriHanzo1]

Since you are asking for comments I generally agree; however, I disagree on the 'reach' argument. Reach and height are only relevant (negative) at the very very extremes (dwarfs and giants). Its pretty clear as if someone takes a look a large enough sample of elite climbers, will see that they are of all heights and reaches. Soooo many tiny tiny climbers are climbing 9a's so can't see why reach is a factor. Maybe its a factor in the beginning/intermediate climbing grades on only a tiny fraction of routes before finger strength is developed, but definitely not a factor in the bigger picture. I subscribe more to Adam Ondra's recent vlog on body types. We all have different body types and each come with strengths and weaknesses. It comes down to how someone learns to use strengths and work on weaknesses.

[@MacHalaG]

reach is definitely relevant, even Adam Ondra says that in that video, that most pro climbers have above average ape index. He shows there climbers with the ape index of +10 do you know about any decent climber with ape index -10?

[@HatoriHanzo1]

MacHalaG I don’t think ondra said reach is so important. He explained that it helps in some things. Not all. Ape index is not the same as reach..it’s related but not the same. I was talking about reach and I made it clear that extremes are not good. A very very negative ape index will probably not do anyone a big favor, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Ondra has a neutral if not slightly negative ape index. Muriel Sarkany is 1.53 and has a negative ape index but still climbs 9a. Maybe we hold a different opinion and that’s fine. My opinion was to the video creator.

[@timmurray9543]

What about endurance in this formula?

[@grinningcat396]

If you let yourself get psyched too much, breathing can also become a deciding factor. Regards !

[@proteinsnjazz7522]

Since body weight is inevitably increasing with reach, you can pretty much cross these out of your formula, if anything the influence of bodyweight is much more important than reach. Looking at all the professional climbers out there, there are hardly any exceptionally tall people.

[@mehrad4907]

Yoooo wtf mani u look like an actor with a mustashe yoooooooooooo

[@ManitheMonkey]

haha

[@DanielDavies-StellularNebulla]

@@ManitheMonkey And the hair for sure!

[@stevebarratt888]

I find it incredibly hard to believe your technique has not improved since you climbed your first 8a.. No improvement in 7 years??

[@stevebarratt888]

I also suspect that climbing longer style routes, even in the redpoint style, would more greatly benefit from the technique, and intuition in climbing movement that experience gives you. One might argue that little depth of knowledge of technique is needed to figure out how to climb a small number of hard moves perfectly (like in modeselektor) because you would have the luxury of being able to take plenty of time to perfect each movement. Compare this scenario with climbing something like an Oliana-style stamina fest in the same grade. In the latter I'd speculate that intuitively climbing with ideal efficient movement would would be far more important, something which might only be developed through accumulation of moves on rock over time. Thoughts?

[@dariorivas3579]

Big question: how do you balance guitar and climbing? I keep hearing that climbing stiffens the hands, which hinders guitar playing. I just started climbing and I probably consider guitar more important to me, but would hate to drop either.

[@onzeit1822]

In the videos I watched on Dave's channel, he supported what he said with some evidence. What you say may be true to some extend but how do you know (or even better: do you have evidence) that max finger strengh and bodywight is determined by genetics in such a way that some a "made" to send V15 and others couldn't ever reach V10?

[@lukasg6504]

How would you rate flexibility and mobility? Is that a deciding factor for climbing performance, or did you account for this in conditioning? I've got a pretty serious hip impingement and often I have to compensate for this with more finger strength, as I can't get my (center of m)ass as close to the wall as others climbers and very often I have to come up with an alternative beta.

[@Michael_Schmatzberger]

I really related to your thoughts. However, nobody will reach his/her limit if they don't climb/train hard and consistently for year(s) - and this is actually something, most people won't do. They get distracted, demotivatied, injured, or stop because of other reasons. Your formula, even though pretty good in my opinion, remains "in a theoretical realm", because other factors already sort out almost everyone. If we are talking purely about reaching ones limit. Good video!

[@Goofygreyhoundgoober]

I am in my second year of climbing, and have made what feels like huge finger strength gains this year (from +15ish kg to +52kg recently with 77kgbw). I do find however, that all my strength tends to be in half crimp (what I train), and I can barely hang body weight in full crimp. Would you recommend training full crimp, or doing my best to keep it out of my repertoire of grip types to avoid injury (I know you have a philosophy of avoid full crimp at all costs indoors for that reason).

[@keyboardathlete]

MacLeod suggests the opposite: Train 4-Finger and 3-Finger open grip.

[@Astilath]

Possibly old news or apocryphal but here goes... I've always heard and practiced open hand grips for strength of muscles. But full crimps are more about joint and ligament/tendon strength than muscles (as I understand it with a pretty good (Msc) level of biology knowledge). So maybe start over light or even use a resistance band from the hangboard to reduce your effective body weight and work on full crimps for a few months. The fibrous tissue involved takes longer to strengthen than muscles. Ive heard and it makes sense that this is why finger injuries are so common in climbing training. Very little muscle in the fingers themselves but tons of ligaments and tendons. Train them slowly.

[@Tyzfim]

What sweater is that?

[@lu-banger]

Really good video man! A lot of useful information but one thing is putting me off a little - weight/height/finger strength...I'm 178cm at 80kg... I need a diet recommendation :D :D :D Thanks !!!

[@onzeit1822]

That's a little heave for your height indeed. (Though Jan Hojer for example is 188cm and 77kg). I'd suggest "just climbing", eat carbs mostly after climbing and not to much at other times (maybe cut "non post-climb carbs" to 50%) and favour not combining fat and carbs when possible. Steady protein, healthy fats, listen to your body, some cardio, done.

[@victordemoor5007]

You really think being at your lowest healty weight is the best? for example: I'm 1m72 / 52kg, fighting against 7C for the moment. when i did my first 7a's, my weight was around 50. those 2kilo's came naturally through climbing, in only muscles (52kilos is no room for fat i guess haha). But i have the feeling it's more interesting to gain another few kilo's of muscles, to make the hard compression and dynamic moves easier. Or am i wrong here? I just came to that conclusion by seeing lots of pros being around 1m75 / 58kg

[@robmcg1712]

Hi, My skin seems to be tarrable I spit a tip everytime I climb outside and it can peel even on wood I use a jam when they split but otherwise not . Any advice?

[@grigorbrowning]

Rhino Skin Solutions are well worth a look. I don't exactly the same issues as you but have found their products to be excellent. They make a variety of creams for different skin types.

[@Astilath]

O'keefes hand cream (very little) and sand down any callouses before they get too thick and dry. I used to treasure my callouses but then discovered they come off way too easy. Keeping them low and the skin supple and thick all over seems to really help me.

[@Squagem]

I was confused when Dave posted that video too. Clearly variety of experience helps, but the PRIMARY predictor of climbing performance is without a doubt finger strength to weight ratio. I'm so glad someone is finally talking sense!

[@janaw1230]

I think you and Dave have a very similar climbing style. If we are to break this down, how overhanging the wall is changes the equation, imho.

[@juandelacanal]

im 1,83 and my weight is 79kg how do I lose weight? :(

[@javierrequenairimia]

Hay que dejar las facturas Juan jaja. Ahora en serio, la única formula es mediante el déficit calórico. Yo tiro de muchas frutas y verduras, y cuando pica el hambre trato de engañar la panza con el mate. El ayuno intermitente también me ha ayudado a bajar los excesos de criollos. Abrazo

[@ManitheMonkey]

that's actually a pretty normal weight for that height I think. other than that there are so many ways to lose weight.. lots of diet tricks obviously, but I don't want to spend the rest of my day writing this comment :P I might make a video at some point.

[@TheValinov]

have you tried vegan? fasting? what other sport do you do? skip all the leg and bodytension training. there are a lot of ways... (1,90m 83kg, dropped from 90kg this year)

[@bodha99]

Keto and intermittent fasting. Listen to your body above all. Some people function quite well with a bit of weight because they feel good.

[@TesterAnimal1]

Dave McCleod has a good interview with Neil Gresham where Gresham explains his diet strategy.

[@littlevahn]

Genetic borders, I mean, how the heck would you ever measure that? Especially with new research on Methylation and how it affects your DNA. That alone could point to factors in how some experience and training could change your genetic make up to 'over achieve' at climbing? Hard to say

[@Ptitviaud1337]

I dont think this is...this true ;) First of all, i dont think that climbing is such a genetic dependant sport, if we compare it to the field of all sports. Clearly, there isn't really a body type for climbing, even outdoors climbing : we have lots of guys and girls that have very different bodies and still perform well, if not elite. However, there is certainly a genetical factor that impact your climbing. Then, we can see that the way we climb now shifted quite a lot in the last 30 years : we went into much more overhanging terrain, which made the requirements for climbing those routes quite different for climbers, which maybe enabled different climblers to perform at high grades. Maybe we will see a similar shift again in the following years, because of new ways to climb that we dont really think of today. And last, i think that : -one factor will have a very different impact depending on where you're already, in terms of grades. I do agree that in higher levels (8a and more, roughly ?), finger strength get more and more important. -what you climb will impact much more the qualitiers required. Climbing on granite without much edges, or climbing on limestones pockets will change a lot the important factors.

[@pinkyfull]

heavy sixties is heavy. I'm starting to think my 6'4" frame with ~85 kg of predominantly muscle just isn't cut out for particularly rancid boulder problems and hard sport routes.

[@loouis33]

Outdoor bouldering :)

[@earlgrey2130]

Or you can just have an epicondylitys from one fucking mistake in training and then be no longer able to climb for the rest of your life -.-

[@largeformatlandscape]

MaCloud ;-)

[@largeformatlandscape]

I won't talk for Dave but I think his point also took for granted all of the usual things you have to do but the 'secret' was enquiring about the things that make him capable of being a multi-disciplinary climber and also, his ability to work the very hardest (and boldest) routes. His very bold climbing seems to come from a very high level of knowledge about his own limits - he knows when he can or can't do something and hence when he climbs boldly, he's worked the percentages through knowing himself and his medium (the rock). i.e. Because he's talked so much about the 'usual' training patterns, the only things left that are "secret" are his intimate knowledge of himself and the rock he's climbing on which can only come from lots of experience (and self-analysis).

[@jacksonswilde]

@@largeformatlandscape very true. i think that's an excellent summary/overarching point of the two videos.

[@skullsRS]

xD