My Favorite Steel Choices

[@vincentedgeworks]

Love this chart! A very interesting guide to categorizing heat treating goals!

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Glad you like it! Keep in mind that there is more to heat treat than just hardness but assuming all things are done decently this chart seems to be how it shakes out in my use

[@bl4596]

Thanks for making this video - great discussion points and views! I enjoy reading the comments from people who have considerably more experience sharpening/using knife steels.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Glad you enjoyed! Plenty of good discussion in here for sure!

[@DullPoints]

Surprisingly helpful list!

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Glad you like it !

[@dimmacommunication]

It stuck in my head your positive review of REX 45 / HAP40 , will for sure buy it in the future 👀

[@sharpwhits0167]

I can see you carrying this graph around a knife shop. "No, no, no, maybe, nah, YES" 🤣

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Got it memorized!

[@ryman4760]

Interesting and refreshing way to look at steel ratings. 🤙

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Thanks man

[@stevegraves8416]

I like your breakdown but have had a completely different experience with 3V. My Benchmade Leuku must be hardened well over 60. It’s edge retention and toughness seem equal to or better than my K390. I tend to judge steel according to how many deer or hogs I can process before losing the edge. S35VN is dismal - I have D2 knives that are better. 3V and K390 are the best I’ve owned so far.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Benchmade did update their heat treatment and hardness target after a bit of a snafu. I believe they advertise it at 62HRc target. Adore K390

[@mlwarrior]

Edge geometry and angle are the cause of that difference.

[@ericasedc]

Great video as always!

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Thank you!

[@FreedomFox1]

Am I correct in assuming that hardness generally correlates with edge retention and carbide volume generally correlates with toothy aggression? I’m still trying to wrap my head around this stuff… as always, your videos are really helpful!

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Long story short, high hardness allows for thinner edges that cut better. It also significantly increases the "front end" or "fine edge" sharpness that will shave hair. Carbide volume mostly helps with the "working edge" retention which is more like a paper cutting edge that will continue to cut for a long time. There is overlap but maybe save that for another time. The best overall discussion is in this article. knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/ Fruit for thought: Hardness is one of the biggest factors in determining edge retention but there are several that make up the whole picture. Edge angle is actually the biggest factor which is limited by the strength and toughness of a steel with its particular heat treatment. Generally harder steel gives greater strength to support an edge from rolling but then it must be tough enough at that hardness to avoid chipping. So having a steel that can get very hard and remain tough is key for high performance because it addresses the two biggest edge retention factors. Generally non-stainless steels are the only ones that can really do that like: 4V, Rex45, M4, K390, 10V, Cruwear and more. Magnacut is the only exception for stainless steels really that can achieve non-stainless performance. Carbide type and volume are also significant factors as discussed in the article.

[@cryptomnesiac]

Many of the steels just under your curve are worth exploring, aside from stats some of them have characteristics that give them a unique "personality" figuratively speaking. Sometimes the particular bite or the enjoyment of sharpening accounts for something in regards to the experience.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

For sure and I speak to some of those as well! LC200N, AEB-L, white and blue steels are good examples that come to mind!

[@jmarsh667]

Yes one of the less popular or less widely used is Nitro-V I love that shit and BD1N! Sharpens beautifully and gets such a razor edge and holds it for a while

[@jmarsh667]

Oh and super blue at like 64-65 HRC is awesome. Sharpens so easily and doesn't roll easily. I hate when steel's blunt/roll.

[@tjjonsom]

Thanks for this video. Where would you place S110V?

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Check out my video on S110V where I dive deep into it. Long story short, I prefer S90V even though S110V is pretty cool

[@Outpost_76]

Cruwear, that's one that 1.5 to 2 points is huge. Early on Spyderco ran the early Manix and Military in the 63 to 64 range. Then it seems everything up until the most recent runs were 61 to 62. Now I've found the mid 2021 to current stuff is low 63 to almost 65 rc. 63+ rc Cruwear would fit what you like, especially the the newest PM2'S and KC Manix that ranged from 63.6 to over 64. How does mid 63 and harder Cruwear compare, it's everything 62 rc M390 is with a better up front sharpness life span, equal working edge ability with edge stability that M390 can't match. It's definitely one you should check out.

[@theodorosmalliopoulos7231]

Elmax from Fällkniven is also very nicely done. Really tough at 62rc and the edge it takes is just incredible. Should you ever get one in your hands, i believe you would not be dissppointed. LC200N is an excellent steel. One that everyone should have in their collection of tools. I do not know about the Colorado lc200n, but the Japanese do treat it really well.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

I hear ya! What's really held me back is having so much Rex45, 4V, M4 and 61-62HRc Cruwear already that I'm not sure if it's worth adding another blade in that range. With those choices is the 63+ Cruwear your choice? Honestly, before the Crucarta PM2s came out I was very close to buying a Mini Adamas just to try out the heat treat but knew I just wouldn't enjoy it with that geometry. Now seeing that Spyderco is back in the game my eyes are on that PM2 but like I said I can't quite pull the trigger yet.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

@@theodorosmalliopoulos7231 Still haven't tried Elmax but I do love LC200N. I have two Golden, CO examples and both are really good. Seems like they got as much performance as they could out of them

[@CNYKnifeNerd]

@@theodorosmalliopoulos7231 Elmax would be my favorite stainless, if s90v didn't exist. I haven't used Fallkniven's (or any production Elmax, for that matter) but I have 2 customs at 62hrc and it reminds me of a much higher edge retention LC200N, with the difference in sharpening being directly proportional to the increase in edge holding. The only thing I didn't like about lc200n was the near total lack of edge retention in everyday use, Elmax fixes that.

[@JMcConnell]

I’ll second the Crucarta PM2 recommendation. I think we have pretty similar tastes in steel and I’ve been really happy with the harder Cruwear, though the knife is still new to me, so take it with a grain of salt. I love the look of the Adamas (both full size and mini), but the geometry and likely softer heat treat have kept me from pulling the trigger. I don’t think it could kick the AD20S out of my pocket for the use cases I’d put it towards.

[@KumaBones]

An engineer's tier list for knife steels

[@EngineersPerspective701]

You bet

[@dheller777]

I am looking for a good deer hunting knife in Cruwear or something with very good edge retention. I want a Bark River, Fox River EXT1 but that knife is in such high demand, and they no longer are making it in Cru-wear currently. Is there another hunting knife of similar size and blade type with as good of edge retention that you would recommend for my purposes of deer hunting? Thx!

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Sorry I'm just not in this realm enough to make a recommendation. All I can say is that geometry is extremely important. Depends on your processing style but I would look for

[@dheller777]

@@EngineersPerspective701 Thanks for the reply.

[@MattieXMoto]

This was the end of my youtube "steel rabbit hole" journey. Truth is majority would be well served with simple vg10, 14c28n or lc200n. Ability to field sharpen or strop easily is often overlooked.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

I hope it was the end in a good way! I think as many of us that dive into the "steel rabbit hole" are looking for more than good enough or just getting the job done. Sure many could drive a 1995 Pinto and get where we need to go most of the time but why do that? In a day an age when a person can get into K390 and S90V for roughly $125-150 I just don't see why not go that route unless you're really abusing the edge to the point of total failure. Diamond abrasives are very affordable now, a work sharp field sharpener can be had for $30 or less depending on the model and sharpens the ultra high end stuff with ease.

[@MattieXMoto]

@@EngineersPerspective701 it was def a good video. I love my lc200n salt and my m390 lionsteel too. But i also dont mind my vg10 blades. And i do have magnacuts on the way. How do I get out of this hole 🙈

[@EngineersPerspective701]

@@MattieXMoto dude there is no way out! You’re already in too deep!

[@FreedomFox1]

Justin, are you interested in any of the new Mules Spyderco announced? They suggested the Rex 76 mule could be treated as hard as 68-70 HRC!

[@EngineersPerspective701]

I am but not at the same time. I just don't have much real use for the blades themselves. I find it hard to really enjoy and experience steels without a genuine use for the blades they're in

[@JaggedJack1]

I have always heard that M390, 204P and 20CV are essentially identical. You are the first person I have seen differentiate them. Is M390 always a harder steel than 20CV, or is it safe to assume that would depend heavily on heat treat?

[@CNYKnifeNerd]

I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding what he's saying. It's the HRC that's relevant. The m390/20cv/204p are essentially interchangeable on the chart. They would all perform (for simplicity's sake...) the same at equal HRC. Heat treat is always the determining factor. Quality of heat treat and blade/edge geometry (and finish) are what determine performance.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

CNYKnifeNut nailed it. Heat treat is the key.

[@mikegreen2214]

Would be useful to see the raw carbide volume broken down by type, since elements such as vanadium, tungsten and niobium form much more desirable carbides than chromium does for a knife-blade application. The size of the carbide particles also strongly affects the steel’s performance.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

They absolutely do make a difference in how they sharpen, edge retention relative to carbide volume, the quality of the working edge. That said from my own use that does not change how this chart works out. When I was making it I assumed I would have to do such a breakdown but I saw the curve fit perfectly with my preferences in its simplest form which is best for a high level discussion! For the kind of breakdown you're talking about. Check out my steel discussions that dive into the different carbide types for the particular steels.

[@tacticalcenter8658]

You can have 3 brands of knife... Let's say they are all m390. All of them are at 60hrc. One will perform like 8cr13mov (lionsteel), one will perform like s35vn give or take (China m390) and one will perform the best (spyderco USA). The reason why they perform different is the microstructure and carbides. This is dictated by the heat treatment protocols. How the heat treatment was performed and the time at temp. Whether liquid nitrogen was used etc. I hope that helps

[@tacticalcenter8658]

@@EngineersPerspective701 how they sharpen could just be up to how much retained austinite, hrc and the microstructure. So it can vary with the same steel.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

@@tacticalcenter8658 yep we’ll understood. Go check out my video on M390 and it’s analogs for a specific discussion on it. I have quite a few videos across the channel discussing the effects of heat treatment as well.

[@FreedomFox1]

@@tacticalcenter8658 Very interesting. I didn’t realize heat treatments mattered beyond making the steel too soft or hard, but that makes sense.

[@jtallday31]

You might mention that you only cut basic stuff. Your steel preferences speak volumes about your use to a knife person but not so much to a newb.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

I definitely use utility blades when it comes to cutting drywall, bags of thinset, etc. Just not worth the constant sharpening to use a normal knife in those applications says me. All depends on what sharpness standards a person has. Lower standards really open up the world of cutting possibilities with a blade.

[@timkelly522]

It may all look good on paper....there are many outdoorsman that will readily disagree with you. In real life situations folks will carry their pet knives that will never be trusted by the number of rope cuts, but by real experience when a knife is truly a serious implement.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

It’s all about the context and use case. Outdoor is going to be completely different than say a kitchen knife. Even then what are you doing outdoors? Skinning a deer, backpacking or bush craft or all three at the same time? That’s a massive spectrum of requirements there.

[@troilism]

That’s why the video is titled “MY favorite”, not “best steels ever”

[@pericodelospalotes5738]

I wonder, why nobody talks anymore about the excelent ZDP 189? That is one of my favorites and yes, I also have CPM S110V, CPM S90V, CPM 20V, Maxamet and K390 blades to compare with but the first is still wonderful. It just seems faded away. .

[@EngineersPerspective701]

I think for pocket knives, it’s been a long slow death based on new options available along with Hitachi pulling back their production of the steel. For kitchen knives Hap40 almost seems to have replaced it. Unfortunately I’ve never tried it out. Spyderco updated their heat treatment years ago so that turned me off to it and now it’s challenging to get.

[@turing2376]

Seems you've been alluding to this idea in other videos. Interesting to see it in a graphical representation sort of format. Always love these sort of idea representation/quantifications that you do. Just curious, what about that s30v benchmade fixed blade you had, it was a hunting type knife i think, I think you said you liked that quite a bit, just the geometry, or higher hrc making it better?

[@EngineersPerspective701]

A good visual is a very nice communication tool indeed! The S30V BM I had was the old steep country. By far the worst part was it's super thick geometry for a blade meant to cut meat. In my own cardboard cut tests it performed lower than pretty much any other PM grade steel I had at the time and less than others like V-Toku and White #1 for fine edge holding. Honestly it was fine for the 1 white tail deer it saw but me being a nerd just wanted something a little better. An that turned out to be the new steep country. The geometry is much improved, 0.015" BTE at 17dps. Feels way better processing game but I've only used it on ducks, geese and pheasants. From previous use I thought the S30V was enough for my game processing but I will say this knife feels WAY less gummy so I think the heat treat is improved.

[@turing2376]

@@EngineersPerspective701 hmm, interesting. I used to not like s30v that much but i have recently surprised myself by how i have been enjoying edge on minibugout. BTW, that reminds me of something. I had told you before that my ashi ginga white #2 didn't seem that great. Turns out that after a couple sharpenings and more use I am really starting to appreciate the edge it takes. Just thought I'd share.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

@@turing2376 You’ve inspired me to put the big out back in the pocket today! About a year ago I made a concerted effort to really understand my feelings on S30V for EDC with my bugout, mini crooked river and leatherman charge. Findings were that it really wasn’t my jam though. We’ll see this time around!

[@turing2376]

@@EngineersPerspective701 well hopefully it isn't that newer ones have better heat treat or just something with me but I would be curious to hear how it goes anyway. Dont know if there is any particular info out relative to our conversation but it is specifically the CF elite minibugout.

[@apex_alchemy_knives]

Interesting 😎

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Hope it was informative

[@apex_alchemy_knives]

@@EngineersPerspective701 I enjoy hearing everyone's perspectives. I am no engineer, but I do use knives. It's cool to see how all of our miles vary. I've had great luck with s35vn and s30v ...but you know..ivlike the way Larin puts it. Steel type means nothing without a good blade geometry. He said a well heat treated 8cr blade with great geometry and design would blow any super steel out of the water if it finds itself attached to horrible design and geometry. There is so much to factor. I like the way you did it..your basis was purely your enjoyment. That's interesting. I like it. 😎

[@MichaelSmith-ti6qc]

M390 is better than cruwear ?

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Depends on what you mean by better and what the heat treat is

[@ArthurHerbst]

Interesting. I would pick the complete opposite.^^

[@EngineersPerspective701]

That’s the beauty of it. Everyone has their own uses and preferences

[@ArthurHerbst]

@@EngineersPerspective701 Just like to abuse knifes i guess. But of course you're right :)

[@stuartdavenport2952]

Yeah I am sorry, but this chart means nothing to me. At all. Just because a steel has an overall carbide % higher or lower than another doesn't tell you much. 154CM does indeed have a higher carbide % than say, CPM M4, but M4 has small MC and M6C carbides whereas 154CM has solely large chromium carbides. Meaning, CPM M4 is not only quite a bit tougher than 154cm, it has overall better wear resistance due to those primary vanadium carbides and the M6c vanadium/tungsten chromium carbides. The chart that makes sense would show toughness vs wear resistance at a single given hardness, and those properties are not only dependent upon carbide volume, but more carbide type and size. But, to each his own I suppose. I wonder where you are getting the hardness values from for a given steel. CPM 3V at 58HRC? As a knife maker and heat treater, 3V wouldn't be let out of my shop below ~62-63HRC.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

All it’s supposed to mean to you is a slick visual to discuss my own steel preferences. So when someone asks what I think of a steel they can plot it and figure it out. When developing this I discovered that for the most part the carbide type does not effect the outcome. So it is technically built into the analysis. In terms of significant factors affecting the discussion, this is the simplest representation that captures them all. As for 3V you have to watch to that part and listen

[@ashmerch2558]

alot of the "budget" 3V is well blow 60 HRC .... I've seen both the Benchmade 200 Puukko & the 202 Leuku come off the tester between 56.9 to 58.6 over the course of 8 tests on 5 puukkos and 3 leukus all the tests were done on a Gowe brand tester, and the tester was calibrated 3 separate times because we thought there was no way that Benchmade was letting a high end powder formed steel like 3V out of their door at that hardness. Also with 3V I am a fan of the Crothers-Delta heat treat protocol for 3V.

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

Try a blade in Elmax. I'd like to see where you decide it fits on your chart. Your guess is as good as mine who does the best heat treat, but Spyderco would be a safe bet. Cool break down. ✌

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Assuming 18vol% total carbide volume from Larrin's book an 61-62HRc it may be up my alley. I'd expect to appreciate it more in the same vein as solidly done M390 which has its ups and downs but still very nice

[@tacticalcenter8658]

The ruskis use a lot of elmax and usually take it to 62-64hrc. Though they tend to be more expensive and custom knives. Or semi custom.

[@EngineersPerspective701]

@@tacticalcenter8658 custom is a while different conversation. Whole new world of performance opens up!

[@rileycoppicus1128]

DUDE!!! where is the CTS XHP !???

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Plot it! My only experience with it is my Microtech LUDT and I’m pretty meh about it. Like the edge it takes but it doesn’t get much work done. Depending on heat treatment it can have 21vol% mixed Cr carbides. So theoretically it wouldn’t have to be that hard to enjoy for me. But alas either their microstructure is off, super soft or the lack of Vanadium carbides makes it just okay.

[@rileycoppicus1128]

@@EngineersPerspective701 no spyderco.or.cold steel experience with it then eh? using it for landscaping work with my manix 2 LW in XHP is the bomb. a 600 grit toothy edge plus a good stropping at 17* it gets such a great "bite" and i find for a stainless steel its one of the best "allaround" steels. stainlessness. pretty.nice to sharpen for.how much edge retention you get for it :)

[@anteck7goat]

I’ve got 95% of the steels. XHP is still one of my favorites. It gets wicked sharp and does better than you think it would. Xhp is the surprise steel.

[@chevyv.2281]

Agreed… Living here in Louisiana, I’d love to be able to reliably carry M4 everywhere, but the upkeep can be a nightmare. CTS-HXP has done very well!

[@SixArmedPriest]

S110V?

[@EngineersPerspective701]

Did not enjoy the example I tried from spyderco. I have 1 or 2 videos on it.

[@SixArmedPriest]

​@@EngineersPerspective701This seems contradictory according to your graph lol It would literally be on your "blue line" no?

[@EngineersPerspective701]

@@SixArmedPriest depending on hardness yes. The curve ain’t gospel though. Just a general guide to my preferences

[@ZPositive]

Wonderful visualization! But you hurt LC200N's fee fees.

[@mikegreen2214]

Sure, if the feelings exclusively depend on carbide volume vs. guess-of-hardness, without considering properties like toughness, corrosion resistance or carbide type. 🤔

[@EngineersPerspective701]

😂 I have LC200N a shoutout! She just needs to remember that although beautiful, she’ll never be a Rex45 and K390 or Maxamet always wins the pageant!

[@ZPositive]

@@EngineersPerspective701 I'm confident my LC200N blades will recover from this crisis, but it's going to take an awful lot of me complimenting them and nurturing their self esteem.

[@tacticalcenter8658]

I dislike charts and steel ratings. You know why... Cause most mass manufacturing will not be similar to those charts. They have different heat treatment protocols and some vendors still burn the edges so bad it might not even matter how good the heat treatment is. The heat treatment might have the right hrc but a poor microstructure. One brand might have great heat treatment while the rest are sub par for the course. Spyderco usa m390 class of steel at 60hrc supersedes most at 61-62hrc. Cause of its microstructure due to its heat treatment protocol. The chart and this discussion is just going to be useless. Sorry. No one wants to hear that. If you were to say this is all just spyderco knives. But even then, the spyderco USA vs spyderco Taiwan are different performance).

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

So true . I'd like to see a test of a new Artisan Cutlery S35vn blade vs the pioneer of the recipe, a Chris Reeves Sebenza. I would expect differences.

[@tacticalcenter8658]

@@jamesbarisitz4794 in cardboard cut testing most s35vn is give or take around 150ft cut vs Chris reeves around 200-210ft cut. 14c28n generally cuts around 200-215ft cut for those around 59hrc (not all were this good but a decent amount were).

[@tacticalcenter8658]

@@jamesbarisitz4794 a lot of m390 was between 130ft cut to 180ft cut. While spyderco USA at 60hrc was over 300ft cut. And spyderco USA at 62hrc was around 600ft cut. There were some brands with m390 class of steel in the 200-250 range, but those were not acceptable either because its far lower than the 350 +- they should be performing at. Just showing the perspective of how close the performance is to s35vn and manufacturer's are milking your pocket book for little to no improvement over the prior steel it replaced (s35vn).

[@tacticalcenter8658]

Here's your s35vn from artisan cutlery 1 yr ago... 130ft cut give or take. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnyVh2lvZ9VkY9E

[@EngineersPerspective701]

I 100% see where you're coming from but I respectfully have to disagree. The chart was made as a visual aid to discuss my own steel preferences and I can attest, it matches 100% with those preferences. Moving on, I'm unsure if you actually listened to the video. I don't think I could have made it any clearer that heat treatment is an important factor. The 2 axis are physically some of the most important measurable factors for performance that result from heat treatment. 3 times I discuss nuisances around that within the same grade or analogs. You also seem to suggest that generalizations are useless in regards to educating a steel choice and for discussion yet you then proceed to make a generalization to discuss those things in the case of Spyderco. I absolutely agree with your assessment on that front by the way! All that said, I will never claim that I can guarantee the performance of a steel or a knife because the exact knife that's been used/tested only represents that exact knife. However, as stated above, we can make some quality guesses.