My (first) longsword fight with Martin Fabian

My (first) tournament fight in longsword with Martin Fabian, during the 8th round at HEMAC Hemathlon in Athens, Greece.
I lost - but it was an awesome bout that drew out probably the best fencing I've shown in a tournament. Martin is more adaptable than anyone I've ever fought, he went on to win gold, as he tends to do :).
Here is the ruleset under which he had the fight - hemathlon.com/ruleset/

[@keithb4077]

Outstanding performance. Great video/edits as well!

[@FalseEdgeHEMA]

Good match

[@edwinpoon]

Go go Boris! Awaiting your S&B video. Btw, is the venue really air-coned? It looks like a normal training hall...

[@desdicadodog8452]

Great fight

[@timoteosoares3118]

awesome match boris wonderfull moves

[@GloomyPineapple]

Fantastic fight. Lovely to watch. Beautiful recovery and one hand shot to the body at 2:36 , lovely faint at 2:11 with superb passing step footwork ! well done. To my eye there is definitely false edge to the throat at 0:45 , but I am guessing this one would have been hard to see for the judges ! Great bout.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

I am not sure if the false edge connected that well with the throat there, it might have just brushed the mask bib, it might have done something, too many mights, so I didn't say anything. Thank you!

[@maritimeswordschoolmoncton6513]

Great match! You both look fantastic!

[@deniz_thfa]

Cool ⚔️

[@wielkiolkus]

cool fight guys!

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Thanks, mate!

[@dequitem]

I'm not sure about some hits, can you make a final count?

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Something like 7-4 according to the judges - I don't remember exactly. The ruleset - hemathlon.com/ruleset/

[@chrysmartiale4719]

final score 7-4, 5 strikes for Martin, 1 for 3 points and 4 for 1 point! 2 strikes for Boris, 1 for 3 points, 1 for 1 point. On doubles fighters gain no points...there was only 1 double in this fight.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@chrysmartiale4719 I'd judge it a bit different, but it won't change the final result, so it doesn't matter :)

[@chrysmartiale4719]

@@borislavkrustev8906 I am sure I, personally, would probably judge it in a different way, but I cannot express a fair opinion, since I consider motions captured on camera a bit tricky. Even if I was the judge, I would probably question myself if I took the right or the wrong decision in some situations. We did some work before the tournament at school recording with cameras and there were so many times where on vid we were seeing 'strikes' which were not at all valid or even strikes. Only you and Martin know 100% what really happened there.

[@TyLarson]

Nice fencing

[@PoorMansHEMA]

One thing I've noticed Martin do is a flat strike to the wrist. I presume it is just too fast for judges to notice? He does it in his sparring videos as well

[@borislavkrustev8906]

I am assuming he does it for safety. If a hard blow like that enters the wrists, it could do a lot of damage with the edge. Either way, fencing-wise he caught me there.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

If you want to enter this into "real fight" territory, such a blow even with the flat would've hurt a ton and given him the tempo to finish me off. Just like my hit to his face would've done the same. But there is no point of entering into those discussions, a HEMA tournament can't fully simulate that and it is not meant to.

[@ericnesbitt1734]

Thank you for posting this awesome fight. Side note, I'm a bit dissapointed there is so many keyboard swordsman in this comment section complaining there is only flat hits, there was only 2 and one was deliberate for safety of the wrist. The swords flex after impact and it often looks flat later, also from the side its very hard to tell the edge alignment of certain blows, a 30 deg rising cut or short edge strike can look flat. Anyone who fences a lot will also know phone cameras don't tell the cleanist story either, and these guys are so damn fast even the slow mo is quick I had to keep replaying.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Thank you! Yep, we are using three different phones of very different quality. The first is my Xiaomi Mi 11, which is quite good, the second is the old gen iPhone SE, which is decent, the third though is an old mid-class which is quite shitty. I only used the third because it was another POV. And we are not that fast, just efficient.

[@sulphurflame2508]

obviously you were very focous on this fight and you did a good job when your opponent is Fabian

[@D4l4m4r]

Can anyone tell me, which stance the fighter to the left is using in 0:21? Most of the time, fighters seem to prefer a Pflug-like stance but that one looks unsual 🙂

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Lower Vom Tag. It's useful but risky - you need great footwork to be sure you can escape if pressed, and quick arm extension to throw a cut from there. Keep in mind it doesn't work so well with a shorter sword with a shorter hilt. Martin has both skills and a looong sword, so...

[@D4l4m4r]

​@@borislavkrustev8906 - From which school of fencing is the lower Vom Tag? I dont think a lower vom Tag is part of Liechtenauer or Meyer (although i am not so sure about Liechtenauer).

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@D4l4m4r You are treating guards as fixed positions, that is a mistake. All guards have numerous variations. Just check the different ways Vom Tag is illustrated in different manuscripts all within the Liechtenauer tradition and you will see it both low, at the shoulder, to the side of the head, and above the head, etc. Guards are just pedagogical tools and ways to classify starting platforms, they don't actually exist in fencing. You can learn more on this from Martin's video on the topic, actually - kzbin.info/www/bejne/jHzTpZ19fsuIrpo

[@ericnesbitt1734]

@@D4l4m4r Its from Liechenauer as said below, Meyer shows it above the head but his middle gaurd is similar to low vom tag.

[@HatiTheMoonChaser]

@@borislavkrustev8906 I think Vadi has a specific Lower Vom Tag guard, but I'm not a 100% sure from the top of my head

[@StarBoundFables]

Great sparring match, the clips were assembled very well... but the primary camera person was filming with a very smudged lens. 2ndary & 3rd angle footage was much clearer

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Probably sweat. All operators were also fencers :D When shooting at events, you gotta check the lens for smudges all the time. Doesn't help that its also Greece in the summer :)

[@KaVeikiaSimas]

Starting at 2:09 was that a duplieren?

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Yep. With bad edge alignment.

[@petritzky]

​@@borislavkrustev8906"dupliren" - when you want to leave the bind, but accidently get caught on your opponents blade

[@AdventuresOfLilaTheHusky]

What are the rules here?

[@borislavkrustev8906]

hemathlon.com/ruleset/

[@antreaslainis2627]

whats the rouls

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Link in the description :)

Bobo is showing some sweet distance management.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

There really is no other option when fencing people in the top 100s :) Doesn't help most of them are also taller than average.

[@Ryo19zintkd]

@@borislavkrustev8906 Having freakishly long arms has helped me a lot in longsword.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@Ryo19zintkd I hate you people :P

[@miroslavm2503]

1:40 A clear and intentional hit with the flat to the hand in order to win cheap points.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

If he can hit with the flat, he can hit with the edge. Also, such a hit to a bare arm would easily allow a second hit with the edge.

[@miroslavm2503]

@@borislavkrustev8906 If someone can hit with an edge then they should, I don't understand this attitude of, if he can hit with a flat then he can hit with an edge. You are just justifying bad fencing. The tournaments, especially longsword are touring into a flat slapping and hand sniping fest. It's as martial as Olympic fencing is.

[@miroslavm2503]

@@borislavkrustev8906 Also, a hit with a flat in order to distract an opponent and then finish with a edge on hit is just fine, it's a valid tactical approach. But that's not what they are doing, they finishing with a flat hit because they don't know any better, they are fencing at a speed at which they have no controll and/or precision.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@miroslavm2503 Safety. You simply haven't experienced a full intent cut to the forearm. Even with good protection. Handsniping is one of the most martial action in fencing - you attack the closest target in the safest way possible. Ask the Bolognese. Flat hits don't count in 2/3 of Olympic fencing weapons, so you might rethink that :)

[@miroslavm2503]

@@borislavkrustev8906 We cannot fence with full force since there is no possibility to do that safely and more importantly there is no point to it. Working at 70% is all that you need to do, to know, all you need to know, and plus a actual weapon will cut effectively at far less speeds but you must align the edge properly, and there lies the problem. This fantasy of expiriencing an actual fight never goes away for some, me as well, but the desire to abandon martial sense does for others for some reason. Last time I was in a military drill/exercise they didn't divide us into two groups and gave us live ammo, so the ones that make it are good to go. There is only so much we can do to prepare for an actual fight with weapons. We cannot fence at full speed in a friendly manner and not make the whole thing a travesty. I recently had a similar discussion and I was told that: if I am not hitting with a flat I am not fencing fast enough. Next time I drive I will remind my self that if didn't crash I wasn't driving fast enough.

[@azizz8151]

This would not be fighting like this if they were using sharps! I feel Martin had the right idea. The other guy wanted hit Martin at any cost. It was messy.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

We had zero doubles, so I am personally quite happy with the cleanless of the bout. And we are not simulating using sharps. We are fencing in a HEMA tournament.

[@tarquiniussuperbus21]

@@borislavkrustev8906 I think you had a lot of doubles. They were just not registered as such. I would argue the crossguard both of you received to the mask is such an instance. But whatever it was a cool fight anyway. Thanks for sharing it.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@tarquiniussuperbus21 The crossguards - possibly, but if we get into the "real fight" debate we have to start asking if the masks being far from the face matters and if something that hit the mask a bit would hit the head, if that hit would 100% stagger you, etc... do you see why these get a bit pointless after a while? I personally didn't see any other doubles, I don't know which situations you consider so.

[@gregoryford5230]

Looked like quite a few blows landed with the flat?

[@sarougeau]

I've noticed that happens often in videos with Fabian. People have explained it as a safety measure which is understandable at this intensity, but I think it can be a grey area if your opponent has a very flexy blade. I've seen situations where a flat strike catches a mask by just bending over the opponents sword in a bind.

[@gregoryford5230]

@@sarougeau I understand why it gets tournament points, it hits and makes a sound. Line judging is hard, it's difficult to rule them out in situ. I get why you'd explicitly have them score points too, there's historical precedent etc etc. Not sure if flat hits are happening more than average in these exchanges, seems like it's a fairly ingrained technique. Personally, I try not to hit with the flat, but hey, who am I?

[@ericnesbitt1734]

Nah its just the blade flex after the blow, watch the multiple angles closely and pause the frame just on contact, most are edge. Its hard to tell on a no pause watch becuase they are so fast the sword as blurry haha.

[@gregoryford5230]

@@ericnesbitt1734 I slowed it down and paused at various intervals, it looked like the blow was coming in flat from the start- which I think is pretty common for a quick zwerch to a low line, it's easy to throw that flat round.

[@thomastucker7317]

@@gregoryford5230 In training at my club a lot of the time when targeting the wrist in drilling we will use the flat as it is much more polite, in sparring I would do the same thing, it bloody hurts getting raked across the wrist with good edge alignment in Sparring Gloves. Longsword tournaments my club hosts allow flat hits to score, I imagine there would be other tournaments around the world where that is the case as well. It might be a part of the rules, rather than a failure of the judging. I also doubt that fencers at this level wouldn't be able to cut with better edge alignment if they wanted to, I would bet that the rate of flat hits is mostly out of politeness

[@Druid_Ignacy]

While Martin is awesome and very inspiring fencer, he accquired a lot of bad technique from his country ruleset which award hits with flat. Many of his attack would be judged as ,,no quality flat" in Poland. This is something that can sink even very experienced fencers in competition - as it should be; it's not thing to be ignored.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

I honestly think that with the level of most judges in HEMA now, they can't reliably distinguish between flat and good edge alignment, so I am fine with that sort of mistake. Also, it depends on where the flat lands - if it's a slap across the torso, yeah, I wouldn't count it. If it is a direct hit to the face... that blow to the head might not kill, but it will certainly deliver enough stopping damage to allow the fencer to deliver another blow. But yes, we should strive for good edge alignment.

[@mikeprendergast8946]

Great fights! And yeah, I was wondering about the number of flats counted. Were they valid under the ruleset?

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@mikeprendergast8946 Not on paper, yes in practice. It was like a silent agreement :D I don't think anyone in LS really threw out a hit that was flat.

[@MartinFabian]

I'm pretty sure I didn't acquire any bad technique from my country ruleset and I'm also not sure if we are watching the same video: first exchange - long edge strike to the arms second exchange - thrust that slid over the shoulder third exchange - no valid hits but the original cut went with the edge as seen in the multiple angles fourth exchange - attempt to parry overcome by extremely close distance fifth exchange - i'm used to do this flatwise because that's how we do it in practice not to hurt the other's hands sixth exchange - a zwerchhaw from below in a steep angle lands with the edge followed up by pulling for a block, 1:52 the angle of the crossguard is visible, after the impact naturally the sword rotates a bit seventh exchange - borislav's dupplieren / aussere nym eight exchange - i don't remember how this was evaluated but i think it was the last strike for Borislav (which came flat) ninth exchange - provocation to the hands and an attemped crooked parry/counter which hit by accident on the way to another parry So in total being used to throw flat to the hands because that's how we usually practice it and one flat accidental hit at the end.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@MartinFabian I think a lot of people also don't realize how flexible swords behave immediately after the cut lands - they bend to the flat. They are so used to seeing only stiff murder sticks that they read flat hits even in slow mo. This is IMO what happened to my cut in the 8th exchange too, cause it was going in with the edge quite straight, it just bent on impact. And this also makes it harder for judges to distinguish, of course, which is why I have changed my mind on the topic as far as tourneys go.

[@spicketspaghet7773]

I hate those flat hits. I don't care about the tiny safety aspect. Not using the edge is practically losing 3/4 of the art itself. I wonder if this is how he becomes such a low rank? He disregards the weapon he uses and turns this into nothing more than MOF.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

If you think that is 3/4 of the art, you have zero understanding of said art. And if you think 4th in the world is a low rank, you have zero understanding of competitive HEMA as well. In conclusion, your comment is mostly an indication that you can't fence your way out of a paper bag.

[@spicketspaghet7773]

@@borislavkrustev8906 Perhaps there's a communication issue. Low rank means better in regards to skill. The lowest rank being #1 in the world. Nonetheless, I do find issue with over sportification. Tournaments are fine. It's when actual technique starts to get abandoned, ie, flat hits being PURPOSEFULLY thrown, that I take issue. As I understand it, the tournament rules Martin seems to use do not punish flat hits. Almost all U.S. tournaments will not award points if they see the sword flex too much on a cut. Vice versa, if the sword doesn't flex on a thrust. I can't help but notice how he flicks his very light feder around guards. Much the same as MOF. If a stiffer sword wouldn't have hit, I don't consider it to even be a point of contention. If this continues, longsword and this style of competition will completely diverge. Following the exact path that MOF underwent as they started to factor speed and "safety" over technique.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@spicketspaghet7773 Yeah, that was unclear. "Actual technique starts being abandoned" - I don't think a few flat hits can be called that. "Almost all US tourneys... If they SEE the sword flex too much" Two issues - they don't see it, and that's a stupid measurement. The vast majority of judges cannot reliably tell flat from edge. And with a flexible sword, almost every strong cut will bend the blade. I didn't see him "flick" his blade around a guard even once - against me or anyone else. That just won't make a significant impact. All his blows were solid, even when delivered with the flat, and sans gear they would be painful and felt clearly.

[@Overdrawn_]

Fight was cool, but these Fabians flat hits...

[@borislavkrustev8906]

Happen to everyone.

[@SirKanti1]

Anything Happens. Halt!

[@Tkoutlosh]

Lol, that flat slapping.. most hits with the flat from both very competent fencers... this is why I pretty doubt the HEMA tournaments are usefull in reconstruction...it is just sport.

[@borislavkrustev8906]

You are mixing two different things. No, this is not a reconstruction, and HEMA tournaments (most of them) are not reconstructions. They are a sport. "Just a sport" is a stupid thing to say, as any and all martial arts in history have been practised as sports. Hell, the Olympic games were just practice for war that was formalized. But the claim they are not useful in reconstructing the martial arts of Europe is just ridiculous. They are in fact key to that. Tournaments are one of the best ways to pressure test techniques against high-level fighters, which is key in confirming the veracity of any interpretation. That doesn't mean the tournament fight itself is a good representation of period fighting (although it can be). Rather, it is one of the many tools we use for reconstruction to get the full picture. In addition to that, you have sparring, sparring without gear, test cutting, different simulations and games. It's a multi-faceted puzzle, so it requires multiple tools that test different aspects of it. And if you don't think a flat strike to the face would do the job (specifically - to open up for another, better edge strike), you haven't been hit with one in the face.

[@chrysmartiale4719]

They had tournaments back then and we cant have HEMA ignoring one important aspect and element of training. Tournaments were part of their training and thus, tournaments are part of our modern training. Sport is good, the Martial Art is good and for me, putting these together you have a whole complete HEMA. If you ignore one of this two, you will either end up with an irrelevant sport without a base and a background, or with an art without performance, that is a more theoretical than practical one.

[@Tkoutlosh]

​@@borislavkrustev8906 "Rather, it is one of the many tools we use for reconstruction to get the full picture." It simply isn't. It is entertaining, it brings competition into HEMA world, it could attract many other people into it, it is awesome as any sport coz it brings people together and it is healthy and so on.. it is reason why many competent fencers meet each other and can discuss and share their experiences, and like BUHURT, it is awesome and admirable activity and many participants could be awesome fencers and important and well known persons in reconstruction world, yet the activity itself translates into reconstruction fencing very vaguely and bad habits (as we can clearly see) will prevail... it isn't tool, it max help to create related opportunities...

[@Tkoutlosh]

​@@chrysmartiale4719 Yeah but those tournaments looked quite differently...

[@borislavkrustev8906]

@@Tkoutlosh Have you ever competed in a high level HEMA competition? I am not asking as a gotcha ya question, I genuinely want to know, because it will help me understand where you are coming from better.