My One Problem With Marvel Champions' New Rules

[@matthewcowan1475]

Excellent idea for a fix. We definitely need some kind of fix that lets "trap" cards work the way they are intended to work. Ill prob use this idea going forward.

[@VillainTheory]

Sounds good!

[@Bumbum_Inspector]

Black Widow is my argument for them needing to revisit some of the old heroes with either a hero pack reprint with updated text and/or new mechanics. That being said, my main issue with Black Widow still is that she wants to flip down a ton but the majority of her preparations and preparations in general (outside of justice) can't trigger while you're in alter-ego which just feels terrible.

[@VillainTheory]

Yeah, the hero-locked triggering of preparations definitely hurts her. Especially in solo. Tricky!

[@tttopolis]

Not as mad about hero response on cards, it feels a lot like Nebula to me when I play her. Just not a fan of the debuff to trap cards. Less fun!

[@Bumbum_Inspector]

@@tttopolis The thing with Nebula is that her techniques feel more universal and trigger no matter what once you're in hero form. It feels really bad on Black Widow when a minion comes into play when you're in alter-ego and your prep cards just can't do anything for no reason even though they're supposed to be traps essentially. You spend resources putting her preps out and in a lot of cases they never end up doing anything because you were in alter-ego during the times when those preps could trigger.

[@TAC3O]

I love FFG's new ruling. It's simple to understand and there are no contradictions anymore (Toe to toe). I'm fine with that the Quickstrike fires first, at the end its "QUICK"strike so even thematically it fits as a really fast attack without time for reaction. Your ruling for Quickstrike is fine, but it's less elegant and more convoluted. Definetely not ideal solution from designers perspective.

[@VillainTheory]

That's fair, appreciate the honesty. The thing is though I think the whole point of preparations is that you were prepared. I dunno. It's a feel-bad change to me for a card that isn't that powerful on a hero who pales compared to most of the modern ones in power. And I do feel there are multiple ways around it if they looked for it. Totally fair if they don't want to, but it's not to my taste personally as is

[@Champion_Leon]

⁠I agree with Villain. Most player find it more intuitive with Bite going first. That’s how it is for the longest time. It also makes the most flavor sense. Adding a line of sentence probably works better than whatever they’re doing with arrows, or deal/take.

[@kitsunin4690]

But I mean, as argued, we already have this for consequential damage. It's more convoluted in terms of raw logic steps involved, as if we humans are computer programs. But it's way more elegant in the sense of, it just works how you expect. If elegance were the only concern of the designers, rather than making keywords get priority over reactions, they should make like most cooperative board games and just let players choose the order for effects with the same timing trigger. Now there are obvious reasons that's not good for this game, but it does prove that "elegance" in rules text for its own sake is not a desirable goal.

[@TAC3O]

​@@kitsunin4690 So, what you are saying in short is "We already have some convoluted rules so we can have more convoluted rules". I don't agree with it at all. Designers should (and they do) try to make it as simple as possible in as many cases as possible.

[@kitsunin4690]

@@TAC3O Nope lol. Just because I think you're wrong doesn't mean I think the opposite of what you said is right. My point was that you can't use that argument, you need to use a better one.

[@e3m88]

I'm fine with quickstrike as it is now, you take surprise damage, you respond, that's it.

[@SteveLEKORodrigue]

That's also my opinion. The ruling is now clear. Quickstrike Minions are meant to be harder on the player. Widow's Bite is still valuable. FFG will need to start making cards with the text "Before a minion enters play...", if they want players to prevent a/any/some Keyword(s) to trigger. The important thing is not what we would like, but how clear and streamline the rules are: Keywords before Response.

[@filosan17]

I agree I thought quickstrike was supposed to be like the minion being faster or catching the hero off guard so it would make sense, and just ups the difficulty of encounters with those minions

[@felipepinto6960]

It's simple, I make my own house rules and everyone has a happy ending😉 As far as I know, there is no MC tournament. Only on MAGIC.

[@jcec]

Totally in agreement here on the "it's just more fun" approach. I love the simple rule adjustment to the Quickstrike keyword as well, hopefully they pick that up for a future rules update 🤞

[@shawnvaljean9260]

I actually have been playing this way the whole time. I always assumed that quickstrike and anything that triggers when the minion enters play would happen then the "after" window happens.

[@anthonychaplin6232]

I think this is not a change from 1.5, the timing chart is pretty clear to me. Agree with the clarification from FFG. IMO minions get knocked out way too fast, I'm glad they didn't totally nerf quickstrike.

[@VillainTheory]

I'm glad you like it, truly! I will say that this is a change, there's a very similar bit of wording in 1.5 about Widow's Bite and it did change to what I put on the screen for 1.6. But in both cases, Widow's Bite is weaker than it used to be in the old days.

[@DMWaldo]

Honestly, you're right. 1.5 rules already did this. It was only because there was this old ruling that Widow's Bite triggered in the middle of a Quickstrike attack that there was any question about how to do this correctly, and it was reflecting poorly on Toe to Toe as well and making it too powerful if you used the same interpretation as the old Widow's Bite ruling. 1 cost card. Enemy attacks, but before it hits me, I do 5 damage. It dies. I take no damage or other nasty effects. I win. In order for Toe to Toe to work as intended, they had to backtrack the old Widow's Bite ruling.

[@ironcladz2]

Might this phrasing be a little clearer? (Current Quickstrike from Rules Reference v1.6) After a minion with the quickstrike keyword engages a player whose identity is in hero form, that minion attacks that player. (Alternative Quickstrike) After a minion with the quickstrike keyword engages a player whose identity is in hero form, resolve each triggered after a minion enters play or engages a player ability. Then, that minion attacks the player.

[@VillainTheory]

That works, though I've become less certain about the whole thing since I posted the video since changing the Quickstrike rule doesn't affect Teamwork which also suffers here compared to the old rules!

[@owenneilb]

TIL I was doing consequential damage too early, and was depriving myself of a final ability trigger.

[@jungle_94]

I really don't have a problem, I think is thematic Heroes take hits. They are not aware of everything all the time. But I know what you mean it would be very fun to stop it and be prepares because its a "preparation" so yeah! But it's fine!!

[@VillainTheory]

I mean... I could argue that I don't think Black Widow is known for taking hits and her thing is being a savvy spy and thus aware 😅 I think Widow's Bite is among her weaker cards and she's not exactly a powerhouse overall in the way newer heroes are, so it feels really weird to me, but it isn't the worst thing as it is. ...I just don't like it!

[@shanepheeney9029]

Quickstrike is the minion doing a "surprise", sure. And the average hero get hit by it. But traps/preps are (situational counters) "you fell into my trap that i had made ready (paying game resources upfront) for that exact 'surprise'." Its like playing wargames in the dense jungle. Put a pile of caltrops and mines round your camp and you dont have to see an stealthy enemy for them to work.

[@foxandfrogboardgaming]

I like the suggestion. If they don't do something like this, I will be playing based on the spirit of what should be happening anyway.

[@GonzaloErloi]

Well, unbeknownst to me, I always played Widow's Bite the way the 1.6 rules stated. It always seemed logical to me and I never really wondered about it.

[@marvinp90]

I recognise the council has made a decision, but given that it's a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it. I feel this is an issue of rules lawyers overcomplicating things and ruining the fun. I will continue to play it the way I always have. Quick strike just means it doesn’t activate but doesn’t get the stun

[@VillainTheory]

Totally fair. They're your cards, play how you want that's fun for you!

[@Badnewzbadgers]

That's probably how I'm going to play it ! To me there cost isn't right now with the new ruling. Not that I've been playing long

[@wkylegreen]

Agreed. This one doesn’t make sense to me. I feel like there should be a distinction in the timing chart between “enters play” and “engages.” So Quickstrike could be after engages and all these cards would be before it with the enter play timing step. I don’t understand why enters play and engages are simultaneous. Outside of that, I like what you said. Changing Quickstrike to be after enters play and engages steps.

[@VaultBoy13]

This solves everything, and I can't think of an interaction that this would break.

[@VillainTheory]

Mm there are a lot of things that are simultaneous which makes priorities hard to deal with

[@draecodefan]

This wording for the rule is completely right. This is a great proposal. Please FFG do take it into account!

[@tromdial7719]

I am with you, Villain Theory. This is likely the way I will homebrew, going forward. Wouldn't be the first time.

[@iggy8u]

Agreed - the rules are now cleaner, but I was sad for BW when I spotted this. Maybe they just need to print a new preparation card that will help this? Something like "Sneaky": play only if you control a spy character. Interrupt: When a quickstrike or toughness keyword would activate, discard this card to cancel that keyword.

[@adamholt5395]

FFG has the Golden Rule to use for cards. If FFG really wanted to make a card work 1 particular way, they just need to put "this card ignores minions with quickstrike." Problem solved. This make it a special case for that one card, they didn't break their rules, and everyone is happy.

[@tttopolis]

That really sucks, those cards were already situational now the debuff makes me not want to include them in decks. How many enemies with 2 hp have quickstrike, sort of a lame rework of the rules, it makes iceman and Hawkeye ally even less appealing. I like your clarity and rewording around Quickstrike.

[@batmansmk]

You try to salvage powers that block what the encounter deck is trying to do. Having experienced those stun lock decks without steady and stalwart, or chump blocking without overkill, they actively make the game less interesting. Quickstrike is the counter of enters play effect, and stun locking. Thats okay in my book if control decks have some leaks.

[@VillainTheory]

Totally fair. My only counter would be to say I don't think Black Widow's Widow's Bite or the Iceman ally etc are really causing problems and seriously weakening any villain or encounter deck. These tools are pretty rare and underwhelming outside of quickstrike in my eyes.

[@batmansmk]

@@VillainTheory call your losses, and focus on making new good cards or errata the problems. Adding a rule exception to make a very old character’s card (and a few others) work is what happened in LOTR LCG, and the rules are impossible to navigate now. It means less players in the end.

[@underthewronghat.0101]

I agree with VT. Quickstrike shouldn't be some special "get around everything" strike. It's just a regular attack that triggers this round instead of waiting til next round.

[@Pokephantom]

Yeah it feels like they're trying to make the threat deck stronger which I get. But this change definitely comes at the cost of making these hero responses way less fun/cool. I like your change.

[@VillainTheory]

You know I never considered that it was intentional to make the encounter deck scarier, it always seemed to me like a casualty of them trying to figure out consistent timing. But that is interesting to think about. If so, I think they targeted some odd choices for it here. But who knows? Thanks!

[@zeroisnine]

It's so weird that they are changing rules, more or less without an immediate cause that requires them too, just out of nowhere.

[@DMWaldo]

This timing window is NOT new. However, Toe to Toe was kind of broken if you used the widow's bite ruling that you could "interrupt" an attack after it initiates but before it resolves, then deal damage and kill the character before it hits you. 5 damage for 1 cost is supposed to be offset by the fact that you get attacked. If you can safely kill a 5 hp minion without taking any damage for 1 cost, it wasn't really working as intended. So they fixed it by saying attacks have to fully resolve before you can do the next thing, in Widow's Bite's case a response to entering play. In Toe to Toe's case, reading the next line in the event, where you do damage. I don't really have a problem with the suggested house ruling from VT although it might be cleaner to just make entering play and engaging a player two separate timing windows. Then Widow's Bite, Iceman, and Hawkeye would trigger before Quickstrike. But Lying in Wait would still happen after the Quickstrike. There might be other unintended consequences that I'm not thinking of out there, I suppose.

[@bradymccann]

I like the simplicity of 1.6 but I do understand your argument. They could keep it the exact same except put one more step in the order and say something like “preperation” trained cards happen right before quickstrike. I don’t think it would stop quickstrike or nerf it as prep cards aren’t super popular

[@bradymccann]

Basically, widows bite should be before quickstrike, but Hawkeye and iceman wouldn’t. They still get their damage right away but they have to get hit first. Look at it like “preparation” for the villain!

[@rickmel09]

i always interpret the "quickstrike" keyword to mean the minion starts an attack when it enters play, and you can trigger widow's bite before the attack resolves pretty sure that's how it was intended to work anyway... and it's not like BW is a super powerful hero to begin with

[@VillainTheory]

The way you describe it is mostly how it worked before, yeah

[@MauroHernandezEDU]

I think it makes perfect sense. I wonder if the people calling it a dumb change would be alright with a future villain, that did damage to allies coming into play as a response, ignored Toughness, or would they prefer this new revision of the rule instead.

[@YourTamedLion]

Did you just play the Marvel Rivals Beta ( as Hulk) or did someone "steal" your name in the game? 😅 If it was you, cool to have met you ingame. We won and I got MVP on Peni Parker aka SP//dr 😅

[@VillainTheory]

HULK SMASH! That was me! Replying to this as a new match loads! And grats on the MVP!

[@DMTip]

It makes several cards weaker, but ultimately I'm okay with the change. It makes Quickstrike minions much fiercer and more difficult to handle without consequence. That said, I'd love for there to be a new *keyword* that could go on hero/aspect cards in the future that would set a 'response' in the same timing window and allow you to choose which one fires off. It would be stronger than a response, but perhaps more situational or rare. It could be *Reflex* or *Trap* or anything similar...in fact, there could be multiple keywords that do different things.

[@VillainTheory]

Reflex is a good keyword, I like it. I'm not 100% sure a new keyword is necessary but ah well. I don't expect anything to change for Widow's Bite or these other cards but I think they are very few, and not the strongest cards to begin with, which makes punishing them this way feel bad to me. Even if it helps smooth the rules elsewhere - I'm sure there's a way.

[@Anondod]

I was thinking something similar, though with a modifier to Response like "Response (Immediate)" or something similar. Either way, it's adding more rules complexity to avoid changing the text on the cards. I'm honestly not sure which is better, but I know I'd prefer for these cards to resolve before quickstrike.

[@scydrex7828]

I really like your Quickstrike ruling proposal. Go ahead and submit it to FFG!

[@Brinn12]

I think I'm definitely in the minority, but I really don't mind the quick strike ruling. I think the intention of quick strike is to take you off guard, no matter how prepared you think you are. I feel like this is the biggest distinction between Quick Strike minions and others. I feel like trying to find ways to alter the effect of quick strike is just honestly removing the reason for having the key word in the game in the first place.

[@danthecrow1701]

Love the fix…. 👏

[@jace76ful]

This is why mtg created what's called the stack. Hydra JT comes into play hydra is on top widows bite trigger now widows bite is on top of the stack now they resolve widow happens first since it is on top of the stack so on and so forth. I know this isn't mtg. But it don't make sense. Quickstrike, although being an ability triggers an attack so.....MC is telling me that widows bite ability that says when a card enters play is slower than a card that entered play and then triggered an ability which triggered an attack? I just ain't buying the theme of it. Seems counter intuitive. I think MC developers definitely didn't quite understand what they was creating and didn't come from a card game back ground.

[@IRatchetI]

Welp, looks like FFG just gave us another house rule XD

[@knighthalcyon1]

If Quickstrike was a Forced Response none of this would happen, because it would take priority before you could respond and we wouldn't be here.

[@VillainTheory]

Well, since it's a keyword, it takes priority now anyway. It's tricky. Part of it stems from me playing with it so long before they ever changed it and it's just felt less fun ever since. But it looks like a lot of people actually prefer the change.

[@Nazzers]

Spiderman is a Web Warrior and Preparations activate first. You can't convince me otherwise.

[@mitosfive]

@FFG, please hire VillainTheory as a rules consultant. I think this would be beneficial for our entire community.

[@EvanSnowWolf]

The future is now, old man.

[@NolanTrapp]

I'm totally with you. I hate that they have attacked BW like this and nerfed a solid hero with these rulings.

[@VillainTheory]

I feel like it's more of a byproduct of them trying to make other cards function and consistent. Which is fair. But I do think there are ways within that system to make Widow's Bite work as intended, whether it's errata or little rule tweaks elsewhere.