My Problem with PROGRESSIVE METAL

[@realobama1100]

Opeth is my Favorite because it’s always serving the song with them, yes there are odd time signatures and 10 minute songs and riffs that are by no means easy, but it always serves the song

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I agree about Opeth. Pale Communion is a fantastic prog album

[@rohitl7636]

One of my favourites too. Mikael is just an astounding songwriter and Opeth in my opinion is probably one of those very few bands that really have the mettle to come up with something as beautifully melancholic as Damnation and then unleash something as intricately visceral as Ghost Reveries. I think it also has to do a lot with Mikael's love for music as a listener. I often listen to Him and Steven's interviews and there are times where both have said that "writing has never been a problem because we always listen to a lot of non-metal and non-guitar music." which I think is a quintessential element that I have seen missing with so many "metalheads". They just don't listen to a lot of non-metal music. I discovered Autechre, Comus, Throbbing Gristles, Magma, Nils Frahm from Mikael and Steve.

[@davidcromwell6805]

Bravo, Andy! Quite possibly your best, most heartfelt and incisive commentary yet. I was chuckling and nodding my head all the way through your video. You nailed it when you said the truly great musicians have virtuosity, but also that human frailty and lack of ego that enables them to encapsulate and express what it is to be human. That means that we, the audience, can fully engage with the music and be *moved* by it at a deep level. Thank you for putting all this across so well!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks David :)

[@adude9882]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I think the word you were looking for was vulnerability. We are vulnerable in the real world so seek invulnerability in the world of art. To reach a zone where the rug can't be pulled from under our feet. Freedom if you like. We live in an age of wage slavery with no sign of that ever changing and music, like sport, is one of the rare areas where we can reach for spiritual freedom. Freedom in the real world of wage slavery can only be approximated by the bosses, business owners or the rich. The rest of us are just told what to do. People have been duped to think slavery is only chattel slavery when it is about lack of control over actions and aims. Even Frederick Douglas admitted wage slavery was similar to chattel slavery in important aspects. In art people try to be free by on the one side going the avant garde route where nobody can tell if you made a mistake so can't pull you down or the technical mastery route where you literally do not make a mistake and people can hear that.

[@DrMetalpin]

Spot on with this one. I do like some of the new metal bands, but the main things I hate about music the last 20 years is the lack of real drums and the use of filters to make everything sound the same.

[@scottmcgregor4829]

To me if musicians stop being curious, the music becomes a formula. When there iis no longer a need to search beyond what musicians know their creativity becomes sterile. There are a few quotes that I love Dizzy Gillespie: "I would rather be the world's worst innovator than the world's best imitator" . Rick Wakman's father telling Rick to glean from as many styles of music that he could:"An author is only good as the words that he knows".

[@kcydm9725]

You just said exactly what i thougt, i felt exactly the same when i jumped from jazz (Like you, i was and still am a huge ECM fan) and prog to prog. metal. I'm glad to hear it from an actual musician ^^ And you're absolutely right to remind us that metal and prog are linked from the very start.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks KCY DM

[@rocketshiptoaltair]

Everything you say in this video is so accurate. I guess because I was learning guitar during the 70's Punk scene I had no illusion of being a good guitar player. It was all about joining in and making a noise. As I grew as a player and my tastes changed I was lucky enough to hear the ECM artists. This was a new level entirely and I didn't expect to be able to do this overnight so I plodded through at my own speed and I got to where I needed to be over time. As a music tutor I have seen and heard students of all instruments missing the point that you can get there if you take your time. It all needs to be now otherwise they give up. The Prog Metal thing is like a new pedestal that can never be reached and kills off the ambition. I could never understand that. If you love music and want to play music then do it. Forget trying to be as good as whoever. Be yourself. Create something new and as Ian Paice once said in an interview, "Enjoy it!"

[@adam872]

Some fair points made here. I've had an affinity with both metal and prog right from my early teens in the 80's. When DT came along, I was smack bang in the middle of a serious metal and prog loving phase and they seemed to combine everything I loved about both genres. I still love their music now, though I don't listen to it as much as I used to. There are a heap of other bands I got into as a result of them though: Fates Warning, Savatage, Queensryche, Opeth, Porcupine Tree and Haken. Love them all. With all of this said I get where you are coming from and some prog metal is overly academic and technical for its own sake. Ultimately it's the songs that count, no matter what the genre. The great prog metal bands have great songs, the not so great ones just produce a bunch of notes. And for the record, Rush are my favourite band for precisely the reasons you stated: prog + heavy rock + great songwriting.

[@rohitl7636]

Extremely well said! As a prog metal aficionado, I totally understand your point, and to be very honest, there are so many bands no matter how virtuosic they are sound absolutely the same. It really irks me sometimes. There are very few players and bands that have really intrigued me in recent times. Stephen Taranto (greatly inspired by Holdsworth) of The Helix Nebula, An Endless Sporadic, Counter world experience, Thank you Scientist and Haken. You might find them interesting if you give them a listen and if there is one significant player that really felt raw and visceral at least to me in the contemporary prog-metal scene is the mighty Ron Jarzombek, though he has been around for quite some time.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I like some Meshugga, I do like Animals as Leaders and Polyphia...and I like Haken, Opeth...theres a lot I like about it but i don't love it

[@rohitl7636]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I absolutely love the fact that you love Opeth Sir! When can we expect a video about Indo jazz fusion? :)

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@rohitl7636 I think I could just about do that one...and I love Pale Communion, one of the great modern prog albums....

[@rohitl7636]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Would be waiting for it. Looking forward to the philosophy of music and the music education video Sir and Pale Communion is indeed a landmark prog album.

[@paulcowham2095]

Thanks Andy, great video :) The discussion about the differences between being a great technician and great musician reminded me of a theory of the learning curve which I think can be applied to music. The theory says that there are 4 stages of learning; subconscious incompetence (when you start learning something you don't know how bad you are), conscious incompetence (later on you understand what you don't know and need to learn), conscious competence (you can play/do it but need to think about it), and finally subconscious competence (you can do it and don't need to think about it). I think that great music has to be made by people who have reached the level of subconscious competence, i.e. playing with no effort. How difficult the music is, is irrelevant. E.g. an aspiring classical, jazz, prog musician, who is trying to play something very difficult and needs to really thing about it, will never sound as good as a less "serious" musician who is playing something "simple" but straight from the heart.

[@sdrandazzo]

Thank you Andy for a very interesting and insightful commentary. Would love to see you express this on Pete Pardo’s Sea of Tranquility youtube program. I am trying to expand my non-musician ears to the best prog and prog jazz fusion music ... love Van Der Graaf Generator songwriting and unique sounds as well as the Italian prog pastoral band Celeste. Regards, Sal.

[@tonyanderton3521]

I agree. As a fan of metal and prog rock first time around (70s), some years ago I thought I'd try to come a little more "up to date" with some prog metal. I'd watched a few videos on YT of Tool playing live and was very impressed so I thought I'd try three of their albums. I listened to their middle three albums (Aenima, Lateralus, and 10,000 days) about 6 times each to really get familiar with the music. What I heard was some highly accomplished technical skills. But, the music didn't move me or affect me in any way. There was no emotion. I didn't FEEL anything. Furthermore, I found that just about every song on these albums sounded alike, and there was no discernible progression from one album to the next, despite their being several years between each new release. If anyone can recommend any prog metal bands from the last 20 years or so that can actually move a human soul, I'm still prepared to give them a try.

[@TheBeeRescuer]

I must say that I agree with you 100%. I'm just sick of drums that sound like overproduced drum machines.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yep....the worship of perfectionism....

[@Glornt]

I think what you're describing may not be so much prog metal as much as *bad prog*. The emphasis of virtuosity over musicality is also present in some classical music, particularly Romantic era concertos, which can be more impressive than enjoyable. That said, I don't like all prog metal, but then I also don't like all prog, despite being pretty much a prog head. For example, I'm not wild about KC's first incarnation after their first album; the next few albums don't do much for me. But then came the rebirth of KC, which went out on a high note with Red, and then a re-rebirth with Discipline, which has some math rock elements but not so much metal.

[@themadmattster9647]

Well I would say Fates Warning, Voivod, and Watchtower prefigured Dream Theater by a number of years. Not to mention Queensryche

[@richard8417]

The reason why Nirvana Unplugged is such a great album: the imperfections, the organic sound. It would not be so great if it was perfect.

[@devereauxclandestine1272]

I think much of what you say here Andy can be applied to a lot of contemporary music across the board. High on technical accomplishment but lacking in emotional resonance. However I do remember much the same description being applied to the likes of McLaughlin, DiMeola, etc. back in the seventies so I've got to allow for the fact that maybe I'm just getting older and things ain't what they used to be! Having acknowledged that possibility I would say that whenever I listen to the latest new much touted musical marvel I often experience an irresistible urge to stick on an album by BB King or Howlin' Wolf! Seriously though if any commentators can point me in the direction of newer musicians who might be defined as 'soulful' I would appreciate it. Also can someone please define 'Djent'!

[@Alfred_Domke_antispace-sounds]

Hi Andy, I can understand your point of view. I like a lot of Progressive Metal. But for me it‘s not about the skills of the musicians. There are many bands that sound generic and focused on their incredible playing abilities. There are also bands that can write really good songs. What do you think of the band Threshold for example? I always thought the grid thing happens more in pop music than in rock of prog.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I know the guys in Threshold and I have worked with them over the years. They are more like a British Dream Theater to me

[@johncahill985]

For me I have a totally different experience. In 1980 I discover bands Like Diamond Head, I saw them support April Wine and play Woolwich after the riots. But I go a different route. I start exploring Gypsy Jazz and start to get into Fusion, but I prefer bands like Gamalon. I start to enjoy how Queensryche develop from a Maiden clone to writing Operation Mindcrime. Listening to When Dream and Day unite and just expecting the band to fade into obscurity as it was so against what was poplar at the time. You need to remember we are now in the midst of bands like Faith No More, Alice in Chains and Temple of the Dog. For me Images and Words is a classic. it gets me back into my metal routes. But the band would not be denied and release Images and words. You also need to remember how unusual it would be for a song like Pull me Under to become a commercial success. I think its not a age thing, but more about what music moves us. I do not expect others to agree, music is a subjective experience and I have no issues being the odd one out on this platform.

[@pablohoward7127]

Hey Andy, have you ever listened to the band Oceansize? I would love to hear your opinion about them.

[@oliviergeoffroy9823]

very interesting ...i was like you in the 80's an ECM label jazzz...good catalogue but quickly disapointed when i saw jazz fusion band on stage demonsrate their technique with weak songs in my opinion and in progressive metal it's a bit the same ..got respect to bands like dream theatre but too academic for me ..overproduced ....at the same time i discovered Opeth recently with "sorceress" and their last .... which is so brilliant and prog metal at the same time ..by the way what do you think about opeth there are different phases in their catalogue ....thanks for posting ...🙂

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I really like Pale communion by Opeth...

[@pillsareyummy]

I don't fully buy the 'adolescent technical' argument. Some people enjoy complexity in music. However, I get his point. For example, Yngwie Malmsteen got boring the older I became. Eddie Van Halen was great, however so were the songs. And I completely agree that Metal can be a gateway into other genres of music, such as Jazz and Classical.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Check my video out on Complexity in Music where I really argue the case for it. But adolescents don't like Xenakis or Conlon Nancarrow....

[@pillsareyummy]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I'll check it out. However, I don't know if you'll win me over. For example, Jazz 91FM, the soundtrack to my home/car is filled with technical/Bravura musicianship, it's one of the defining qualities of Jazz (especially some of its more complex subcategories). Some Jazz fans seem to gravitate towards complexity, some are consummate musicians, while others don't play an instrument. I love complexity. I love it in art, everything from music to hard Sci-fi literature. At the end of the day, art is subjective, thus what we enjoy is bound to be different from what others enjoy.

[@RogueReplicant]

​@@pillsareyummyHoldsworth and Zzzzzzzappa fanboy detected 🥱

[@pillsareyummy]

@@RogueReplicant I won't take offense. "Broken hearts are for assholes".

[@paulv22]

I'm surprised you didn't talk about Tool, but you make a great point about the depression phase.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I have spoken about Tool elsewhere...Great players but boring and dull...

[@ArjayELevin]

I'm a more recent fan. Still catching up on all of the vids you've made so far, Andy. Congrats on 30k subs! To my mind, it ought to be 300k or more. I feel like you get me and I mutter things like, "Exactly!" and, "Andy is the source of objectivity in an otherwise entirely subjective industry. Even when I don't agree, you have got me thinking and considering it all from a new angle. Thanks for what you do!

[@mattf9076]

Math Rock caught me off guard and I was entrenched in it for about 1 month, but just like bubble gum, once it loses its flavor you spit it out. Math Rock all sounds the same to me.

[@callmeal3017]

Often i would agree, but... Tool Pneuma? Mahavishnu Vital Transformation? Yes Siberian Katru? Crimson Niel and Jack and Me? An old friend said of things like math rock etc. You have to learn it and then forget it and just play. But you have to learn it before you can forget it! I guess it's not math rock anymore by then.. just odd times with odd guys

[@somedude3443]

A part of why I like the band Jinjer so much is their humanity. You're welcome to disagree, but I think they blend songcraft with technical proficiency very well. Sure, each member of the band is incredible on their respective instruments (being a bassist and often voluntold to be a singer, I love Eugene's bass work and Tatiana's incredible vocals; but Roman's guitar style is very unique, and you would probably love Vlad's drumming, Andy). Every song has its own flow and structure, yet every song sounds like "them". But they're not necessarily a "perfect" band. Not every note is 100% correct. Their lyrics can have these little "Bjork-isms", as they write in their native tongue and then translate them into English. But they don't stop, they keep pushing forward with every release. And I'll gladly take an album by Jinjer over Dream Theater any day of the week. Just 3 dudes and a chick from a war-torn country rocking out. I don't expect them to be everyone's cup of tea, but they are a fascinating band

[@alexeyulko]

Glory to Ukraine, they are fantastic.

[@princeneumator]

I agree about bands like Animals as Leaders and Polyphia as being more technical olympics. I also have always felt the same way about Steve Vai and other "guitar gods". Like watching them play live can be fascinating and impressive, but listening to an album is just ... it's super technical muzak almost. I do however love the early Between the Buried and Me albums (before it got too much into the technical perfection obsession) as well as the insanity of Dillinger Escape Plan, and even the frenetic silly space sci fi of a band like Vektor. I also find quite a lot of Meshuggah's albums to be really emotionally compelling. It's a fine line for sure. Curious where you land on The Mars Volta as to me they are such an incredible blend of genres and progressive tendencies (especially the De-Loused, Frances, and Bedlam albums) without losing sight of song/story/emotion

[@Xplosive59]

This is very interesting, in the internet age we have seen a split form between young Musicians, those who are into the flashy, throw a cover up of a difficult song on KZbin type technical purist Musicians and those who appreciate it as an Art form. The former speaks for itself but the internet and our ability to access a Pandoras Box worth of information, has lead to a generation of young people who have way more ecclectic taste on a larger scale than any generation before it due to the level of freedom a search engine gives us. Luckily, it's the latter that are being relatively successful now that easily digestable critics like Anthony Fantano have become tastemakers for alot of young people. I mean the former does have it's people that stick out, you mention Polyphia and Animals as Leaders, I would say Periphery. But their importance to music will never be as important as Yes or King Crimson simply due to the fact that trying to be a musical innovator in Prog Rock/Metal has become more granulary which ultimately means you have to treat it more as a science than an art. Just my take, great video

[@unityproject2279]

Spot on. I gave up guitar for a good long while really because of the competition aspect. Guitar wars and all that. Who can shred better than the next. I lost love for music really, it had become about the skill so much more than the sound. Happy to report, as you mentioned in your video, that I am back in love with the fragility and playing more guitar than I ever have and focusing more on composition than anything else.

[@terryjohnson5275]

Thnaks Andy, I was a big Dream Theater fan when they first started out mainly becasue back in the mid 90's there wasnt a great deal of prog style music around - at least not that I was aware of, I'd bought a couple of Pendragon albums that I felt were a bit derivative, and MArillion were veering away from the prog of the Fish era, and then I heard Images and Words and was caught up with their melding of prog and metal that, yes was quite Rush like, and mixed in bits of Metallica and Maiden alongside Yes and Genesis. All was well until Train of Thought came out at which point I felt I'd had enough of them. I had also started to get more into the likes of Mahavishnu, RTF, Miles, Coltrane, Santana, so I think that around the early 2000's was when I moved from that 2nd stage into the third stage, I also turned 40 in 2002 which could also have had something to do with it.

[@whitneyjacobs7874]

Excellent analysis. I have never found the progressive metal I have heard very interesting. It seems like an exercise in virtuosity that serves to guard against vulnerability. Whereas much of the greatest music conveys the vulnerability of the artist, makes their experience relatable, and makes their music indefinitely relevant.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Well said!

[@drummondaikman]

Well said. That's why I'm often so disappointed with modern recorded music, esp prog - it's too precise, lacks feeling, emotion. I listened to the new Porcupine Tree album, meh. Then I went to see them the other night, wow! Those new songs are great live. Sure they made mistakes, there were a few tech issues, it was less polished, fantastic! It sounded like music, played by humans, delivering a message. FFS put that ragged emotion on the album.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Nail hit firmly on the head.....

[@robertkubica4873]

I was also struck by how some of the songs I wasn’t really into on the album were much more effective live.

[@edljnehan2811]

I think the birth of progressive metal could probably be pointed to the Barbarian by Emerson Lake and Palmer😮

[@zakpullen8113]

I don't think frailty is necessarily whats needed (I dont get that in Van Halen), but an emotional commitment is, as is the risk of failure.

[@cbarbe02]

Have you checked the rest of Dream Theaters catalog? Great channel I may not agree with you on some things but your honesty is well appreciated and by the way your work with IQ was phenomenal.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I do like some of Dream Theaters other stuff. I toured with them in 2008 so I heard them a lot up close. Incredible musicians but I think I was a bit too old to be blown away. If I had heard them when I was 14 they would have been my favourite band...

[@willemmoller6736]

I agree fully with your analysis. I tend to switch off to music that's perfectly timed and tuned, it doesn't emotionally connect with me. The prog I grew up with - Yes, King Crimson, Jethro Tull etc - was often very complicated and required great skill to perform well. Those musicians were always striving to do it as best they could, and it's that striving that gave it humanity. Same with the jazz greats with great skill, they were always striving to up their game. That comes across to listeners as humanity and emotion. You say music is not the Olympics, I always say it's not an Eistedfodd. Equally important is what you say about discovering your individuality and expressing that through music. 'Perfection' does not come into it, and music that's produced to be 'perfect' instead of individual expression of our humanity just doesn't do it for me. Great talk, thanks!

[@valuablesandwich]

I like you a lot, glad I found you. Cheers from WV, USA.

[@elbib2446]

good points again andy.we have similar tastes.fusion/jazz/bit of metal,though was huge metal head as a youth/space rock/funk/latin jazz/bossa/deep house etc etc tons of stuff thats hard to categorise also skipped the prog metal scene,was listening far more to other stuff,heard a couple of math rock bands,was ok didnt move me.it was more psychedelic rock bands that got me back into raucous,loud rock guitar playing,not technically in the prog metal camp,but bands like earthless, awesome hendrix experience/early sabbath/early zep,with a bit of krautrock thrown in mash up,no corporate image,like lots of metal these days.just raw 20 min jam outs,and it moves me,drummer Mario Rubalcaba. is one of my fave rock drummers .i also do a lot of mostly programmed house tunes/dub reggae tunes etc but one must get out of the studio/cabin at times,and play with live musicians,totally different vibe.one phase,im still in it lol i went through was listening to loads of afrobeat fela/tony allen/antibalas etc do you dig afrobeat

[@TheJohnmb46]

Great video! I think that one of the greatest (to coin a phrase) "Prog Metal" albums is 'Sounds Like This' by Nektar! Why? Firstly because Nektar were not normally that heavy, think of 'Remember the Future' and 'A Tab in the Ocean' but they certainly were PROG! Then along comes 'Sounds Like This' and it's a different kettle of fish, as I said before, it's a lot heavier but what makes this album so great is that it was recorded 'live' in the studio, mostly in one take! As you said, no overdubs, no chance to go back and edit or double track the drums, it is what it is! The errors are there, the calls to each other are there and it just feels fresh and invigorating! Probably not Prog Metal, but definitely on the heavier side of Prog and one of my favourite albums! BTW I also love 'Live' albums for the same reason!

[@johncahill985]

I agree I have always seen Nektar as early pioneer of this music. The drummer is really underrated Imo. On More Live Nektar you get a sense of their heaviness as well.

[@luisdiego22002]

So, I agree that music is a language and learning that language well (excellence) is not even the main requirement for being a trailblazer (innovation), much less a communicator of ideas/feelings but, why not appreciate just the musical aspect of the composition? I’ve increasingly (especially with metal) concentrated on hearing the music instead of the lyrics, which are, for the most part, unintelligible. I know that your message is targeted towards young, aspiring musicians (don’t belong to either) but, I don’t think your commentary is somehow always applicable. I concur that exhibiting “mistakes” (roughness) is a way of showing our humanity (dare I say, divergence/emergent qualities?) but, virtuosity is also very enjoyable. Can you not enjoy a virtuoso violinist who can handle a piece by Paganini, just because? Maybe, not everyone’s cup of tea and not always but, nonetheless it may also have it’s moments.

[@OMW66]

I agree with most of what you´re saying... and if you take reaction and feelings out of the tunes and the performanses (too rehearst and rulebound), the only thing left is the machine of things...

[@alexhamilton4084]

Have you ever pondered the vague similarities of the albums, Court of The Crimson King and Paranoid? I’ve been pushing this theory for years. Such as; Schizoid man = Paranoid Epitaph = Electric Funeral Moonchild = Planet Caravan Etc. plus some musical similarities. I’m guessing that Black Sabbath were influenced by King Crimson. After all the albums came out quite close together. A year or two apart. What’s your thoughts? Am I just clutching at straws? 😂

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I think I hint at this in the video...I think the same thing...KC invented prog AND Heavy Metal...!!!!

[@alexhamilton4084]

@Andy Butler who said it was?

[@alexhamilton4084]

@Andy Butler I didn't say that Sabbath WERE influenced, I said I wonder IF they were. I also never said that Paranoid was the first album. Hence me saying "who said it was"?

[@alexhamilton4084]

@Andy Butler No problem. Enjoy your day. Cheers.

[@spacedebris566]

My dog is into funk and disco

[@LR-oo8hq]

I think Polyphia is being some fresh new stuff in. I wished they were more prone to improvisation because that’s how I personally get to connect to the music and the musicians (I can’t really separate these), so I don’t fully connect with Polyphia because of the lack of it (that’s also the reason I can’t connect to Yes as much as I do with Led Zeppelin for instance). But despite that I think their last album has some great stuff and it is pushing to a new direction in music in my view.

[@naderzekrya5238]

I agree. Polyphia's latest two albums are well worth a listen for what they are

[@Fogeyspasm]

I quite agree with everything you said. I bought Images and Words. I loved it at first but agree it had been done already by Rush, it sounded a lot like a Rush n metal hybrid. Progressive Metal I find incredibly irritating. It's like listening to a machine track that's been over quantized completely devoid of any feel or ebb and flow. Saying that there are some amazing players but it does just leave me cold.

[@loud7070]

Great podcast and I am on the same page with Andy. The current progressive metal music is non organic, almost unnatural.

[@MauriceHotblack]

That's exactly the problem I have with a lot of modern prog and prog metal. I've tried to listen to it but it's all flash and no substance. It all feels like perfect virtuosity and no heart, no soul, no vulnerability, especially the American bands. However I have a lot of time for Steven Wilson's work both solo and in ensemble.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I agree completely

[@wietzejohanneskrikke1910]

You owe it to yourself to check out Plini

[@gokhanaya]

100% spot on!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Johnnysmithy24]

My problem with a lot of the modern Prog Metal/Djent/Math Rock is that it sounds like AI generated music. It lacks the human factor, it’s hard to explain

[@colinburroughs9871]

the nub of all of those styles was taking something basic/simple and then expanding the idea out.. folk to prog, blues to metal ect. The new stuff isn't organic in it's starting point. The 4 chords and truth part of the songs aren't the point or even evident. Being technically brilliant is the point and sometimes that works, lot's of times it can't carry a tune for very long. And this is coming from someone who probably likes more of that type of thing than most who notice these issues. Honestly, it's all in the family tree of the Ynigwie Malmsteen paradox. Would I hire him to take a jaw dropping 45 second solo? Yes, a thousand times over. Would I want to listen to that jaw dropping solo for 45 min? Not really.

[@themadmattster9647]

(cough)Polyphia(cough)

[@Johnnysmithy24]

@@themadmattster9647 Yep lol

[@RobertSvilpaMusic]

LOL the deep breath at the start...

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I had to say it....

[@RobertSvilpaMusic]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer with respect to many of the "prog metal" bands, especially Dream Theater - much respect for the skill and discipline they bring to the table as skilled technicians, but when rock music is too perfect (or jazz, or any music really) it loses that edge that excites and grabs at your soul. DT and so many others out there live by "the grid" and nailing the click so much that once you ignore the pentuplet 32nd note run that just happened you are brought back to the feeling that it's a midi track all quantized into perfect place. That plus the last few albums from them and a few other bands feel like adverts for the new gear their side companies or endorsement deals are selling embossed with their names on it. As much as I believe a guitar designed in conjunction with a great technical guitarist yields a fantastic instrument that many people want, that shouldn't be one of the prime motivations to release new material simply because you have a contractual obligation to play it in wide distribution in order to sell it. I might be stretching the actuality of the situation, but that is just what it felt like when Octavarium was released, and there was a 3 minute solo prelude on the Haken Continuum, which was a brand new instrument Jordan was endorsing at the time. Perception is 9/10 of what is believed in the end... Back to the idea of "perfect music" - I really like Opeth, but I don't really consider them truly metal anymore, which is fine I think since Mikael's moved on to incorporate other influences in his writing. Bands like Polyphia, Animals as Leaders, Periphery, Crack the Sky, etc... I listen to KZbin Music and put on the Supermix channel when I drive, and while there are moments that feel inspired, most of the time everything they do feels rigid and brittle to me. Boomer Bends might be so last generation, but the imperfect nature of performing music rooted in jazz, blues and incorporating elements of classical and avant garde is the breath of life in any music, not just prog. I read something not too long ago referring to Alex Lifeson's lead guitar work as "teetering on the edge of falling down - frenetic that somehow managed to land on the one all the time" - being able to be on the edge of disaster and land successfully is the excitement in music, much like watching gymnastics, or an amazing pass and one timer in hockey/soccer(football), or that hail mary catch in american football. Holding your breath and hearing someone just put it all out there playing and stretching beyond their confident abilities and somehow land it - that was what prog was and should be for me. Forget a flubbed note here and there, but stretch and reach beyond especially live such that everyone in the room feels it. That's what I myself try to aspire to.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@RobertSvilpaMusic Yes, I agree Rob. And I'm glad you mentioned boomer bends (I should have) The thing with Polyphia is that Tim Henson looks like a doll, I think that is part of the attraction, the video is really important for these bands, it's not all about their virtuosity, it's their virtuosity packaged and made pretty and attractive without any rough edges or edge to upset the adolescents that follow these bands. I always feel these bands are pretending to be something they aren't really, and using digital technology to create a veneer of perfection which is really the cover for a kind of hollowness. Yes, they will laugh at boomer bends, as they are evidence of the blues, and the blues represents something they just won't get. For fundamentally, this genre lacks something...it's too safe

[@RobertSvilpaMusic]

There is a newer band that has grabbed my attention - Gojira are really interesting 🤔

[@victormendez8811]

I agree with you 100% !!! These Bands are not Metal and for sure not Progressive ( Prog ) at all !! Actually, I find Progressive Metal Bands predictable and after 10 minutes into a song BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Music designed to impress teenage boys

[@thaibride4690]

Terminal Redux by Vektor is just good music, I don't care how virtuoso they are, the music makes me feel something which is all that should happen. I'm a musician and have zero desire to play any type of metal at all. Same goes for plenty genres. That doesn't stop from enjoying straight up good music. I don't like the dream theatre style if prog metal, not my bag

[@glennbateman4483]

I am a bit of a Haken fan , The Mountain is a cracking album

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I do like that album...like metal Gentle Giant...

[@mikereiss4216]

To me it's not part of prog it's part of metal. I like it sometimes but feel I have to be in the mood for it.

[@MettleHurlant]

I love metal but I can’t listen to the growling vocals. I get recommendations for bands I don’t know and get 2 minutes in thinking it’s pretty good, then the growling starts and I turn it off with a big nope. I don’t need perfect autotune vocals either - this was the appeal of folk and punk. Bob Dylan and Lou Reed had mediocre vocals but wrote good songs.

[@RogueReplicant]

There are some great singers out there who don't growl like the friggin cookie monster. Dio, for example.

[@sspbrazil]

Well said Andy, I’ve akwys felt the same about Prog metal. I don’t connect to it at all.

[@dennismason3740]

Yes sings "...and You and I..." a few times then they go to...the least expected chord! Is it a key change? I hate that chord...sometimes I think dudes are just showing off.

[@contrabandivory]

Spot on Andy. Good show! Metal: Big Dumb and Knuckle-dragging Prog: Big Mind expanding and Forward moving The contrast should remain, and never the Twain shall meet.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

'Never The Twain shall meet'? (picture Rush looking sheepish...)

[@MetalMan73100]

I am not a musician, but have always been an avid listener, moving between a few choice genres. With regards to Dream Theater I became a massive fan in the mid-90s, lasting until the early Noughties. By that point I had had enough of them, especially the mathematical and nonsensical rhythm parts. There is only so much I can take of that. A friend of mine once tried to convert me to Meshuggah by showing me a few live clips on YT, explaining the amazing rhythmical aspect of their music, but that was all I heard; a growling frontman, accompanied by extremely downtuned guitars and overly complex rhythmical structures. No melody anywhere in sight, only a rhythm section showing off in perpetuity. Imagine suffering through a whole gig, or a whole album, of that. And yet they have their share of devotees, much like Tool, completely unable or unwilling to dislike a single note uttered or played by these exalted creatures.

[@ganazby]

Perfectly put.

[@HaZZb97]

Just a question: why do you say “the big three” and not “the big four” when referring to thrash metal? Do you acknowledge the existence of Megadeth?

[@cbolt4492]

7:50 me too 😎

[@guillaumechabason3165]

I prefer bossa nova...

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nX2ZlHaEht-CgcU

[@wm-nu1yf]

I like some of it, but a lot of it is exactly as you described. Early Dream Theater was good, but sometimes it's just too much. I can't listen to bands like Polyphia. To me, they sound like stoned robots making music for stoned robots.

[@wahid-lg1kk]

The long hair is a much better image.

[@JohnMacRae23]

I'm a big fan of IQ and Frost (much props to you as a musician) but I really think you're doing a slight disservice here, I think your over generalizing... there are A LOT of great progressive metal bands that really have progressed styles in the actual definition of the word. Especially in the last couple of decades. In fact I think a lot of progressive metal bands are much more adventurous than much of the so called "prog bands/neo prog bands" there are currently. Although Dream Theater/Fates Warning get a lot of credit, there are bands that do no tredge through that style at all. Same goes for Animals as Leaders, thats just one band. I dunno man, maybe it's not your thing, but I think there are dozens and dozens of incredible prog metal bands that serve the song rather than just the musicianship.. bands like Green Carnation, Voivod, Between the Buried and Me, Mastodon, Gojira, Sun Caged, Caligula's Horse, Haken, Opeth, Myrath, Devin Townsend among just a few.

[@philipwittke8491]

Check out Riverside...they'll make "your problems" go away..

[@malanthrope]

I always knew Vai was an adolescent

[@colinburroughs9871]

Dream Theater is funny in that they were legitimately awesome in the 90's and the critiques I found to largely be wrong as there's plenty to chew on and the songs are there. Then as they've gone I think the critiques are basically correct. Just not very good songs with high degree of technical playing. Poliphya is the greatest offender of this. Those songs suck. There's no art there. Tool is for the psychedelics. If you know, you know.

[@EdgardoPlasencia]

Everybody copies DT ?

[@RIPMMD]

Sounds like you've never heard of Fates warning who you skipped right over even though they started the genre in the '80s before DT even came along. Frankly, Fates is a lot better than DT in a lot of ways, one of which is the singer.

[@pandstar]

The first one of your videos I disagree with. There are quite a few progressive metal bands that have loads of technicality and musicianship, AND loads of emotion. The Contortionist - Language Tesseract - Altered State Pain of Salvation - One Hour by the Concrete Lake, Perfect Element, Remedy Lane Wolverine - A Windows Purpose, Communication Lost, And just to note, I am in my 60's, and not a Dream Theater fan.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I worked with one of the guys associated with Pain of Salvation...I left the project because they wanted to program my drums pretty much. They for me are a great example of over edited, pro-tooled to death prog metal

[@elementsofphysicalreality]

I wouldn’t call math rock or prog metal virtuosic. Pictures at an exhibition by Yamashita… that’s impressive. Joe Pass? John McLaughlin solo guitar in India? Anything Shawn Lane or Allan Holdsworth? Yeah not a fan of metal. My music might sound like metal but it’s not what I’m listening to. I like animals as leaders, btbam, and that’s it. Just those 2 bands.

[@vcp93]

Uh.... (cough.... cough.... "MEGADETH".... cough... cough.... "Dave Mustane".... cough.... cough...) 🤘👽🤟

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Incredible band and exempt from this analysis

[@thekeywitness]

Spot on. Consider also how fans of progressive metal (and modern metal in general) may also be playing a lot video games and watching extreme fighting matches. It’s a culture of aggression born out of economic insecurity and inequity. For these people, it’s all about brutality and control.

[@stewarttiley9683]

Dream Theater rule!!!

[@jefferysimpkins366]

As my friend , a bassist and fan of progressive music, says " Dream Theater are great, but they can't write a hook like Rush"

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes...Rush can write a hook, that's it in a nutshell

[@richard8417]

I don't really like any form of metal. Iron Maiden? Horrible! Metallica, meh. '80 metal in general is horrible to me. Can't like everything 🙂

[@RogueReplicant]

What about 80's hair metal? There were some decent songs (Round and Round, Metal Health, Looks That Kill, etc.) Not masterpieces of music composition but at least fun and goofy 😊

[@rakeshadhin]

Prog metal is usually impressive but often lacks soul.

[@edljnehan2811]

And it's just too damn bad Rush couldn't have kept that up past the 1970s. I'm a huge fan of Rush but for once I would like to hear a video without dwelling on the altar of Rush for the whole damn video😢

[@howlinginsburg7412]

Yes, metal is failed prog.

[@martinjacks5631]

It's shit?