My Reactions to The CES Letter - Haleigh Everts

[@alicruz4900]

Isn't it fun how the church is like, "Hey, members! You need to be 100% transparent with us, your money, sins, and in general your life, but we don't have to inform you what we do with tithing money, membership numbers, our history or even transparency with what is going on in general regarding the church currently. You better not question or criticize us. Perfect obedience from YOU is all we ask..."

[@freedomfriday2.040]

For the record 😉 The church only asks that I disclose 10% of my income not 100%. They only ask that I disclose my egregious sins not 100% of them. And I’ve always been encouraged to ask questions! I have asked lots of them. And I’ve read the CES Letter. I sincerely wish you well! I think so much of what is happening is people are wanting to walk by sight and not by faith. I’ve always found it interesting how many Exmos who exit the Faith for all the reasons you and this video and the CES letter cite; and leave for Christianity in many cases also find themselves exiting Christianity as well. Do you know who Authored the CES letter? Jeremy Runnells. Who is now an agnostic/atheist because after applying similar criticisms and core intellectual processes to the Bible.. it left him with emptiness. You know famous Ex Bishop Lee Baker. He too left the church for all kinds of reasons. He too is an atheist now lol Wherever you’re at and whatever you believe Ali, I wish you happiness, good health and prosperity. Faith is the first principle of the Gospel because the Lord expects us to walk by Faith. If everything was a clear as day and met all of our 2022 expectations. Then people would be unjustified to live outside of any other mode because then agency would be influenced too heavily on knowledge. The Lord purposefully has left holes, gaps and questions in everything he has left us because ultimately the only question left is… are we willing to walk by Faith??? Much Love! Keep The Faith!

[@Wolf.88]

Exactly. Touché.

[@paigelee1434]

Holy crap, I’m so happy for her. I watched her videos when both her and I were still Mormon, but I stopped watching nearly a year ago when I started seriously questioning the church. I’m so happy to see that she’s made it out!!

[@jordanalexander8099]

These don’t feel like doubts, these feel like facts..dang that’s deep.

[@toryduke200067]

Book of Mormon central CES Letter Reply: Faithful Answers For Those Who Doubt.

[@paulgregersen3570]

CES No, they aren't facts click KZbin video titled Book of Abraham part 9.

[@jordanalexander8099]

Studied it. Yeah, made it worse for me actually. There are no good explanations for these things. That’s why the first presidency and 12 completely avoid anything to do with these questions unfortunately.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

The CES Letter is a pack of lies.

[@Rockyrocks2112]

“that’s sketchy as heck” i literally love her😅 i’ve watched her videos on youtube when she was a strong member and i really like her vibe. even now that she left the church i love her, she helped me when i was struggling with the church when she was in the church AND now out of the church

[@TheShodan92]

I was raised in the Church to believe that Joseph Smith translated the gold plates " by the gift and power of God ". The closest we were led to believe was via the Urim and Thumbim. NEVER were we told about the peepstone in a hat story. Now the Church has been forced to tell the truth on this issue only it's become too late for them to backpeddle.

[@firesondiego7666]

I find it hilarious how people believe that it is easy to create an entire historical document while staring at a rock in a hat. If someone is able to look into a hat for 3 months, dictating for hours and hours a coherent story that, in its timeline, doesn't contradict itself, utilizes ancient gardening methods not known to the world at the time, reviving doctrines that were lost to the world, guessed correctly the name of a son of an ancient king, as well as an undiscovered site in the middle of the Middle Eastern desert, and one that has "duped" millions and millions of people--then yes, I would think they are either one of the smartest men to ever live, or was called by God to do just that.

[@rebeccaryan2391]

@@firesondiego7666 Or had demonic help

[@firesondiego7666]

@@rebeccaryan2391 Yeah, because demons would write a 500+ page book testifying of Christ, His divinity, containing explicit admonishments to do good works, to reject the devil, and many other things contrary to Satan's plan. Nice try though.

[@yevz6360]

God spoke to Moses from a burning bush and you’re central concern is with Joseph looking into a hat?

[@selinaogorman8380]

Yes the Mormon church should have been honest but it will never be and many members are discovering the truth for the very first time thanks to the Internet and others that left it’s sad it’s built on a lie and it’s still going on today I left it am more happy being out of the Mormon church sad some still believe in the lies.

[@denz4133]

Thank you for sharing Haleigh. The whole time I was listening to your video I was just nodding my head in agreement. I completely understand.

[@joshuadavis6010]

Love the “why the Frick!?” 😂😂😂

[@anzbatman2297]

Mormons are always telling me to remember how I felt because that's what was drummed into you as a member. Now I make informed decisions based on information, not feelings.

[@christiea.6778]

I’m curious why everyone talks about the CES letter and never mentions “Letter to my Wife”. I thought it had more info and the overall tone was more neutral. It really helped me during my faith transition and I wish it was talked about more.

[@danielmeehan1756]

Haleigh mentions that in another video.

[@derrickscrubblarson]

Frickin' heck... If the facts don't fit your faith....just have more faith. 🤦🏻‍♂️😂

[@traceuse13]

Exactly! Don't let the facts lead you to H E double hockey sticks /s

[@s.a3099]

My feelings don’t care about your facts 😂

[@derrickscrubblarson]

Since feelings can not be measured, tested and/or demonstrated they are irrelevant. Follow the facts & make your own decisions.

[@danielmoore4024]

@@derrickscrubblarson So called facts are not simply facts, facts change as time goes by, by further investigation and evolution. Science is not about truth. Science = What is most likely true according to the information we have up to now. Science does not equel truth. Those who say they believe in science and think science is true are doctrinated just like any religious person. There's science as a belief system, and the separate actual method of science which is never ending investigation and research. I encounter extremely few critical thinkers, there's extremely few critical thinkers in this comment section and the comment sections of other videos. The CES Letter poses no threat to the testimony of actual critical thinkers who don't lose their breath when bombarded with so much negative sounding and unheard information.

[@jordanalexander8099]

Be specific on which parts you’re talking about. There are hundreds of issues.

[@mikeoyler2983]

What is it about the CES Letter? Years ago when I had my crisis of faith I began reading Fawn Brodie's, No Man Knows My History. I was amazed at all of the issues that she researched. For me personally, what really got me was the story about Zelph, among others. However, when I finished the book I felt that I had an intellectual basis to leave. Interestingly enough, Richard Bushman's Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling gives credence to Brodie's research. In some ways it is kind of written in a passive way which confirms Bordie's conclusions but doesn't use any negative wording about Smith or the Church. Yet, No Man Knows My History was published in 1945 and did not cause a mass exodus out of the Church; it brings up many of the same topics that the CES Letter does. Why did the CES Letter have such an impact?

[@shalimardamere302]

Most active Mormons view both of those books as opinions or an outsiders interpretation of and due to their passive nature not very convincing compare to the “I know this is true testimony”. The entire elders quorum read both of these in my ward growing up along with many other church history books and this would be my description of why not a single one left the church based on convos with my father. Now I’ve shared the CES letter with my mom (who I feel had an unshakable testimony potentially stronger than my dad) because she asked me to when I told her I was done with the church. She has now left as well. Jeremy’s letter is clear and to the point while reminding Mormons of some very beloved truth and faith quotes from the prophets. Such as “if we have the truth it aught not be harmed if we do not the it should be harmed”.

[@mikeoyler2983]

@@arianae6706 Thanks for your answers. I agree with your point about its accessibility. That is probably what has given it such widespread attention and readership. Also, as you say it is based from the perspective of the author's personal experience. There is only one point of yours that I want to quibble over. Fawn McKay Brodie was David O. McKay's niece. She was excommunicated after the book was published. The Church tried to refute it. Hugh B. Nibley had a short rebuttal published in fact called "No Ma'am that is Not History." Laughable indeed! That there is no retort to the CES Letter shows that the Church has simply learned not to do it. Brodie's No Man Knows My History is not about her personal experiences but is a deeply researched history book about Joseph Smith. Thus it is probably to academic or of little interest for most people going through a faith crisis. If you haven't read it, it is still worth reading.

[@evansmind244]

@@arianae6706 www.debunking-cesletter.com/

[@evansmind244]

@@arianae6706 Thanks for sharing your link. I found that there are faithful answer to all these points. The rebuttals to all these points are in the eye of the beholder. I find the CES letter depending on way too many facts out of context, or completely fabricated lies from disaffected members. That in it's self is Not Faithful and deceptive. Faithful members who try and reply to this stuff make mistakes, assumptions, and redactions as more information is found. This show's honesty, and a faithful strife for answers to difficult questions. Debate and apologetics isn't something I want to be involved in. The interesting thing for me is that I can read CES letter and have my Testimony strengthened while others lose their Faith. Why? For me the restored Gospel has brought me that Truth. When I was disaffected from the Church I felt the same way many do reading the CES letter but now I am putting my Faith in God, receiving answers which change me from the inside out. This is the greatest gift God gives me. Self Mastery and a desire to help ease the burdens of those who suffer!!

[@evansmind244]

@@arianae6706 Have you read the Faithful reply by Bennett line for line all the way through? Thanks for all the time and energy you have in this discussion. For me I look at how I learn from God. I make a LOT of mistakes. I've blessed people and there weren't any miracles, and I have blessed people and there were miracles. I have had challenges with sin, and then overcame those things and found new, deep, and profound changes in my life. So have many other people of different faiths, but that doesn't negate my Faith or the Truth God is revealing to me. I know that the Restored Gospel is True apart from Joseph Smith and the varied ways he translated the Book of Mormon. We have very details of what happened, and we all over reach when assuming facts that took place 200 years ago. Joseph Smith made many mistakes, but he remained faithful to the end. That is the point. None of us will get out perfect, and all of us are headed for, and deserve death for our sin. God doesn't reveal all Truth once and for all. Each generation carry's the Ensign of truth forward. Where do you go for Truth? If you go to the Bible what do you think a look at Isaiah's life would look like if we had as much information about him as we do Joseph Smith?

[@sensiblesoul1840]

Wooow I remember coming across her videos a few months back, she seems so much more confident and free now

[@AJ-et3vf]

I haven't gotten around to watching the full interview because of my hectic schedule, but I just finished watching this and thank you very much for this interview, John! I love hearing about other people's stories about finding out the truth about Mormonism. I haven't heard of Haleigh Everts until John featured her here. I'm glad and happy for her discovering the truth and for her insights about it and the lds church. and she

[@etcomehome39]

The BOA really got me plus polyandry. Had I known this shit I wouldn’t have joined but then it meant I would not met my husband at BYU. Can I say God works in mysterious ways?

[@traceuse13]

Lol

[@randyjordan5521]

Hear that. My first serious doubts (shock, really) came when I read about Joseph Smith with Fanny Alger in the barn.

[@richardholmes5676]

Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist info presented in the CES Letter.

[@prayerwarrior7778]

6:30 really spoke to me. It is delusion to believe in something you CAN prove is false. Yes, I agree.

[@patricksullivan2397]

My wife and I are happy to see this gal and notice how pretty she looks without all the heavy makeup as she is naturally pretty.

[@saltandiron3379]

She is wearing makeup, and she looks great.

[@nickkraitor6560]

Truth will always remain the truth, no matter what that turns out to be.

[@marksandsmith6778]

Truth is Not LDS

[@nickkraitor6560]

@@marksandsmith6778 No matter what mental gymnastics a person tries, its impossible to see truth coming out of a con artist.

[@paulgregersen3570]

Lies can be made to look like the truth. Let me show you how these deceavers trick people against the church. Watch how they trick you by clicking onto the KZbin videos by me.

[@nickkraitor6560]

@@paulgregersen3570 Thanks, I'll check out your videos when I have some time

[@paulgregersen3570]

@@nickkraitor6560 First of all my KZbin video titled "Book of Abraham part 9" exposes the lies in the CES letter about the book of Abraham. The second half reveals the timeline in Daniel chapter 2 that leads biblical history to exactly 1830 where Joseph Smith only could fulfill the restoration. Grab your calculator and add up God's timeline. The Bible alone resolves Joseph Smith therefore. Thanks.

[@findingcraigie]

Please keep making these! I don't have time to watch the full length mormon stories interviews and also it's too much information anyway lol

[@DepPatel]

I didn’t know Teresa Giudice was a Mormon. Makes sense why she was arrested for fraud now. -Dep

[@chipsthedog1]

What a world we live in where South Park is more honest than an actual religion

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

I sent 2 comments to the CES Letter informing on the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the arrogant Egyptologist opinions by presenting proper interpretation. I gave a basic rundown on how Paul Gregersen demonstrates on his pro Book of Abraham videos that Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong. The CES Letter ignored my comments.

[@sharbear4248]

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, if you’re a young LDS member please don’t take for granted the resources & support available to you. 30+ yrs ago we had no CES Letter, John Dehlin, let alone internet. Yup! Apparently I’m old! I relied on a library that carried little in way of “LDS history.” Thankfully, with the guidance & inspiration of my first openly gay & incredibly intelligent friend (1995) I “thought” my way out of the church. Every struggle when losing religion is hard; but the plethora of information available today was created by extremely brave people! Keep thinking critically!

[@joetaylor8687]

I've come to believe that "the Church" is mostly a social thing that most members have been steeped in since birth, and there's little incentive for most of them to back up and take a hard look at all the facts . . . but once they do, it becomes a completely different ball game. I guess that's why after nearly 200 years of proselytizing, 99.995% of the world still thinks it's horse feathers. Too many things are just miles away from adding up.

[@harleyenjoytheride1324]

You were just wanting to hold on to your club membership.

[@firesondiego7666]

Quite the expensive club membership...

[@sadieesther9721]

It’s all based on feelings and faith!! But in what? Joseph smith being a prophet? Sharing “the gospel” of Joseph smith not the real gospel that Jesus was born a man and died for our sins!

[@susiervo1]

Mormonism veils people from learning about the true Jesus

[@yevz6360]

Actually it does the opposite. You’re misinterpreting the core values of Mormonism

[@grumpygrapeape]

I love hailey followed her for years.

[@mspolicecall]

Wait she left?

[@kelleygall3644]

Yes. She explained it on her channel

[@jeaninecookson167]

I have known all that stuff for decades and I have never been Mormon. It is pretty common knowledge to the rest of us. There is no proof none.

[@cappiece3786]

Now read the salamander letters book

[@scottbrandon9390]

Given her critique of the Book of Mormon, I would be interested to know Haleigh's opinion of the stories of the Bible. Are they all true? How do we know this?

[@shalimardamere302]

She did say in the full interview that she is still Christian very briefly

[@Lavenderbaby]

@@arianae6706 if you look on her Instagram she just got a tattoo that says “faith” and I think she’s pretty certain that God is real and has come to an understanding of the Jesus that the Bible teaches is vastly different than the church haha

[@kentthalman4459]

It's only a matter of time before Haleigh runs into Bart Ehrman

[@Fotomadsen]

@Oswald von Baden If a thousand years from now, a Spiderman novel was found. You would also be able to find artifacts supporting those stories. Just because a story takes place in a real place and is describing contemporary situations or events, does NOT make the extraordinary claims true!

[@MsCaterific]

❤️

[@marjanahjaiyana5272]

You can feel same thing when you run also , that burning in the bosem as they call it

[@quacks2much]

In the early 70s, I gathered anti-Mormon literature from Salt Lake City General Conferences to refute the literature. When I found out the church is a fraud, like a fool** I threw the literature away. **After all, I was a Mormon fool. Later I became an atheist, which also calls me a fool. I can't win.

[@kentthalman4459]

Truth crisis

[@RobertJensen-v1n]

When you hide the truth, then you deceive. Deception is not the way of the Lord.

[@markrunnells5642]

Those who are deceived never understand how they are deceived. (Rev. Mark Runnells.

[@j.pitkin2883]

For those of you trying to find the CES letter, it's not a letter but a book. Pretty sad to discover a belief system based on lies. The end result of the beliefs is being honest, selfless, considerate, compassionate, law abiding, dignified, polite and hard working. Not saying you can't be all those things or raise your kids to be all those things without religion. It's just hard to explain why dishonesty, murder or any other crime is wrong without God in the picture.

[@grumpygrapeape]

Thats whats else i was going say....how in the heck was he able to lift those so called plates...he would not be able to period

[@momaw627]

"Sketchy as heck"... no truer words spoken.

[@CadillacBunner]

I thought he lost the plates so he couldn't actually translate them

[@pacificcab]

Imagine if People had a page that was focused on wasting their life bashing you?

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

The CES Letter is a pack of lies.

[@richardholmes5676]

Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist info presented in the CES Letter.

[@danielmoore4024]

If you think you're critical, assess yourself and see if you actually are. The CES Letter poses no threat to the testimony of actual critical thinkers. Adam is God, people living on the sun and moon, The Book of Abraham etc. is absolutely no threat to The testimony of actual, true critical thinkers. The author of the CES Letter is no critical thinker, to true critical thinkers the CES Letter is nothing but a negative viewpoint of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, negative viewpoints are not the same as criticism.

[@byuisgreat9800]

Don’t be deceived by this. The Church is true! Read the Book of Mormon.

[@scottbrandon9390]

You don't prove or disprove something. The correct scientific term is the degree of falsifiability.

[@coliostro1006]

If we are bringing science into the conversation, a major tool that is used throughout many fields are anachronistic traits. The BoM has many anachronisms, including the horses as mentioned already. Only a single anachronism is required to be scientifically "highly falsifiable". The BoM has many.

[@scottbrandon9390]

@@coliostro1006 Yeah, I often wonder about horses and steel. Both were not present in the new world.

[@Elaphe472]

1) Besides the "proof" matter, what is the purpouse of all this irrelevant, meaningless story about the plates, the rock, the sombrero...? It looks so stupid that makes me wonder about the sanity of people overall -- since maybe all religions have absurd beliefs. 2) I looked at the video because the beauty of this woman; gosh...

[@nostoppingit7827]

There is not a church I know of that when someone wants to join says wait let me tell you every bit of our churches history before you join. You are joining the church in it's current state. And people join churches because of what they currently teach and have to offer, not because of what they did or didn't do, taught or didn't teach, 100's of years ago. This whole complaining because you didn't take the time to research the history before joining, if that is important to you, is just ridiculous.

[@shalimardamere302]

Truth is just as important to Mormons as family and worthiness it is one of the things we are conditioned to value by a church that doesn’t value it nearly as much as we should

[@nostoppingit7827]

@Oswald von Baden The only people complaining about the wrongdoings of the catholic church are those against it. I guarantee you will never hear the complete history spoken of at Mass and if someone wants to join the catholic church no one sits them down and says let me tell you our history first. Nor do they teach it to Catholic children. Churches teach current doctrine, they don't focus on teaching history. If the history of a church is important to an individual, it is up to them to research it.

[@nostoppingit7827]

​@@ugominnie Yes, I was referring to adult converts specifically. How could those brought up in the church learn the history? By using their agency and doing the research just as many have done. To expect a church to spend it's time making sure every member knows it's history, especially the things that are no longer applicable, is just ludicrous. I was born and raised in the church and was never taught to never question. I was taught to avoid anti-mormon literature but I was also taught I had agency and I used that agency as a youth and an adult to look into things that were important to me. I was also taught to take personal responsibility for my life so if I chose to be lazy and just rely on others or to believe blindly that would be on me. Let me be clear I am not defending the churches history or the lies found therein. I am just sick of people acting like it's the churches responsibility to inform them of the history when that is not what churches do. So what Haleigh says at 2:30 - 3:06 and what John says at 3:50-3:55 is what I am speaking to and is just ridiculous especially where adults, who have the ability to question and research, are concerned. If I decide I want to join the baptist church or the catholic church I wouldn't expect them to tell me every detail of the history of the church before I join. I have enough common sense to know that any church is going to focus on telling me what they believe currently and what they have to offer, if their history is important to me, it is on me to find out about it. What John said is beyond ridiculous.

[@coliostro1006]

I understand and agree to a certain degree in regards to "Church History". Events that took place throughout the history of the church, it shouldn't be expected for every organization to get everyone "up to speed". Where I no longer agree with you, is where the church SPECIFICALLY teaches events that aren't true or at a minimum didn't happen the way they are portrayed. The rock in the hat is the go-to example because it is (or at least was) so blatantly washed away, yet, can be so easily shown to be true. Another is Joseph Smith's involvement with polygamy. It's not that they were silent on the issue, they all out taught the practice began with Brigham Young. That isn't something that's simply "the church in its current state" - that is all out lying. This becomes infinitely worse if you are born into the church, as you are groomed from birth to believe these certain things, along with the warning to NEVER look at un-approved sources of information. "There are dangerous parts of the internet that is full of lies, we are the only ones you can trust."

[@nostoppingit7827]

​@@coliostro1006 As I said I was specifically speaking to Haleigh and John's comments that it is the churches responsibility to make sure you know the history. Not sure what you mean by they taught it began with Brigham Young. As I stated I grew up in the church and was never taught it started with Brigham Young but yes Brigham's wives were the only ones talked about. Not sure how you can say it started with Brigham if you believed or believe D&C 132 came from Joseph. And the destruction of the Expositor was well known as was the accusation in the Expositor that Joseph practiced polygamy so yes, adults could have looked into it. All that being said the church wasn't lying or being deceitful by not bringing up Joseph's alleged wives. If you have ever read D&C 132 you would know there are mistakes in there that Joseph never would have made. You would also know that it is the only teaching/revelation that doesn't sound like any of his others. You would also know that Enid DeBarthe did a writing analysis of D&C 132 and found it to not be from Joseph. Had you thoroughly researched you would also know that not one of the alleged 30+ women made any record of being married to Joseph until years later. Now some will use the excuse that they were commanded to keep it a secret but it isn't logical to believe that not one of them would have written it in their diary that they were so special to be chosen to be the wife of a prophet and Mayor. More importantly when Brigham made polygamy public in 1852 not one of the women spoke up, then or in the years to follow, and said they had been married to the prophet. In fact they didn't make those claims until Joseph's sons showed up in Utah in 1869 and were telling everyone their father didn't practice polygamy. All of the sudden women started making claims that they had been Joseph's wives. Two things of interest about that is that these women were knee deep in polygamy by that time and a large number of those women were married to Brigham or Heber at the time they made the claims. Here are some other interesting facts: Joseph denied having more than one wife up until his death Joseph excommunicated those found preaching or practicing polygamy (stupid move if he was trying to conceal it and if it came from him) Emma stated until her death that she was Joseph's only wife In an interview Emma stated that the first time she had heard of the polygamy revelation was when it was she read it in the Seer in 1853 DNA tests have proven Joseph had no offspring except those born to Emma None of Joseph's brothers had more than one wife. They all preached against polygamy Joseph's mother who wrote his history after his death and who lived with him in his last years made no mention of other daughter in laws or a revelation on polygamy. There isn't a single contemporaneous account by anyone allegedly involved with Joseph's polygamy. There is no credible evidence to support that he practiced polygamy. So no the church didn't lie before 2014 about Joseph's involvement with polygamy. And FYI I was born into the church and I looked at all the unapproved sources of information on the subject of polygamy. So the fact that they encourage you to avoid it, which those sources don't always give you the whole truth either, doesn't override your agency to do so.

[@martinandersen9810]

So - it is a little confusing when you say you accept the CES letter, yet you contradict that comment by saying you also believe in the Bible. Are you just selective in what parts of the Bible you are willing to believe? I know the CES letter claims the Bible is a myth, that Adam and Eve never lived, that there was never any great flood or man named Noah who built and arc, that there was never a tower of babel that caused languages to be confounded, etc.. Just be careful that you don't toss out the baby with the bath water. For me, personally, the CES letter is destructive and purposely deceptive. I believe in the Bible as well as in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Book of Abraham - the whole ball of wax. I believe in the principles of the restored gospel - in living prophets, and revelation, and modern scripture, and chastity and virtue, and priesthood, etc. It is a safer bet by far.

[@darrylkirky]

you believe in the book of mormon, like the bible says JESUS CHRIST IS THE ETERNAL GOD NONE FORMED BEFORE OR AFTER HIM. yet by modern revelations and living prophets above the scriptures now say JESUS is OUT BROTHER???????the brother of satan???????? Also the book of mormon says those who not keep the commandments (613 jewish pharisee laws restored) a hewn down to the fire of hell whence there is no return. Yet that was changed to 3 degrees of glory...... So if the book of mormon is true, then why to latter day saints IGNORE what it says...... Jesus chastise Peter after he said to jesus go destroy a people and city and jesus said I have not come to destroy.. Around 2 weeks after his crucifiction death, he appears to the city of Zalahemlia of the book of mormon, and instead of saying behold inhabitants of the earth this is jesus christ, he just says WO WO WO I have come to DESTROY you people.... Mothers, children everyone destroyed by fire, earth quakes and swallowed up unto death..... ?????? What a hypocracy the book of mormon and worse the D&C revelations that even changed many things, and also lds prophets disagree with each other not in harmony after the bible says prophets must be in harmony with each other and any predictions , prophecies must come true or they are false prophets.. Brigham young by revelation teaches for 10 years that adam was god the father of our spirits?????? That was rebuked the list goes on..1 Galitians verses 6-9 let that man be accused for accepting another gospel and another angel. Even paul the appostle said if he came back and preached any thing else besides this grace, REJECT HIm .. See 1 corithians 15:1-4 the gospel according to the bible that saves and gives eternal life... accepting grace means to surrender our filthy rags of rightousness and enter into christ rightousness thus the enabling power of the holyghost becomes our strength to live obedient. Grace is a free gift activated before works. latter day saints teach we must earn grace, climbing half way up the ladder to meet jesus christ half way and hopefully then grace kicks in.....This is hypocracy teachings, blasphemy. shame on mormons.. ex mormon Australia.

[@martinandersen9810]

@@darrylkirky My comment was about how the convoluted CES letter does not stop at my faith but attempts to refute all faiths, including the Bible. I guess you and I agree that the CES letter is trash in a bucket, because I cherish the Bible right along with my Christian faith. Now as to understanding the Bible and coming to know Jesus Christ, now that is something that the Book of Mormon can help us with. Jesus Christ is known as The Eternal God, and has always existed. His Father sent Him to atone for our sins so that our efforts to follow Him can mean something. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ blood, all our efforts to be righteous would ne as filthy rags, but through Him, all our efforts glorify Him. When is the last time you have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover, or read the Bible cover to cover? They offer incredible insights, but living prophets offer additional insights as well. Taken together, they combine to help us know God and Jesus Christ and to know how we can become daily more like them, as they said. I love my friends down in Aussie land. There have been many converts to the restored gospel in your wonderful country, when you aren't all making sport your god. These blessed saints have been a great strength to the church. How long were you a member? Do you know why God sometimes destroys entire cities, including men, women and children? He has done it multiple times, not just in America. IF you don't believe that you do not believe the Bible. But He also gives them the chance to come to Him and be saved. The Book of Mormon is amazing. Modern prophets are amazing. The true Gospel of Jesus Christ is amazing.

[@martinandersen9810]

@@arianae6706 Hi Ariana. Thanks for commenting here. No one should be bound to the LDS faith by force, by birth, or by any physical or psychological restriction. Each is and must be free “to enjoy that which they are willing to receive...” (D&C 88:32) and to make up their own minds of their own free will and understanding. I do indeed want you to be happy with your choice, not just now but eternally, so forgive me if I seem to overstep my bounds through my enthusiasm for the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It just makes me so sad to see anyone forfeit any of it due to their own misunderstanding of facts or misrepresentations of others of what actually exists for them in the eternities or in any historical event. Most leave the church due to such misunderstandings, which misunderstandings certainly abound. When you think about it makes sense that we cannot obtain the glorious, promised blessings without getting past the efforts of Satan to overthrow us. He makes war with the saints and with those who strive to “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ,”at every turn. (Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:7). Take the Book of Abraham for instance where you post your own such misunderstanding. I am not sure if you are perpetuating someone else’s error, or if this is entirely your own, but nowhere that I have discovered does Joseph Smith ever say it is a “direct translation”. Instead, what he says is it is “a translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands, from the Catacombs of Egypt, purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt, called the BOOK OF ABRAHAM, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.” ((“The Book of Abraham,” Times and Seasons 3, no. 9 (March 1, 1842): 704). “A translation” is very different from a “direct translation”, but you obviously know that. You might contend that the Book of Mormon translation was a “direct translation” since multiple scribes mentioned such a process, but no such process is mentioned relative to the Book of Abraham. Joseph Smith and the early saints acquired three lengthy scrolls and some other parchment scraps, however only the scraps exist today. The Book of Abraham came from these scrolls. Many critics try to say that these scraps are all he needed, but these are not all that he had nor all that he used. I cant help that. It is the truth. The papyrus that was in Kirtland was an ancient copy of the record written by ABRAHAM. Its translation, which was only possible through the gift and power of God, adds light to our premortal opportunities, and to our post mortal potential. With the efforts of many to try to discourage us from reading The Book of Mormon, they dismiss the many efforts of Joseph Smith to translate the Golden Plates as well, and they want to impose upon us the idea that he only used a seer stone in a hat, but in reality, this was only one of his methods. He also used the full Urim and Thummim as represented in artwork for many years behind a curtain. When the idea of the seer stone in a hat emerged, it inappropriately crowed out the other methods. As he became more comfortable with the translation process, he moved from the full Urim and Thummim to the seer stone in his hat. Without the plates, he never would have been able to progress to that stage and we would have nothing. When the plates were taken back by the angel, he could not translate at all, so he needed the plates nearby. Women anoint and give blessings in the temples, but not outside the temple. They can, however, heal the sick through faith, which is a gift of the spirit. John and Jeremy and even Nemo all apply their misunderstanding to issues, and they spread falsehoods thereby. Then unsuspecting people come along and eat it up. It makes me sick and weary, but it is all part of the effort to unseat you. I am glad that as a LGBTQIA person yourself you have a place to go where you feel comfortable, but it is not right in the sight of God to abuse your procreative powers. It is what destroyed Rome anciently, and it is destroying America today. As for people of color, my personal belief is God reserved them for this time to add strength to the church. They are coming into the church with such outstanding faith and strength, and it is so exciting to welcome them in. While you reject this faith, they are embracing it, and I love them so much.

[@martinandersen9810]

@@arianae6706 What I forgot to say was that I love the Book of Mormon more now than when I previously only understood the translation process which incorporated the full Urim and Thummim. Once I learned that a hat was used, I know for sure that no reference materials were used. This actually strengthened my testimony. The words of the book remain the same, but the possibility to cheat the translation process were eliminated. I have read the Book of Mormon many times, and I still get chills and confirmation of testimony with each subsequent reading. Both times I read it last year it lifted me, and it is lifting me again this year. DO you ever read it any more? How about the Bible? I read the Bible this year and I still love it, however I think the Book of Mormon is a better guide to come to Christ.

[@martinandersen9810]

@@arianae6706 Like I said, Only 5% of the Kirtland papyrus is available today. When they find the rest we can debate the Book of Abraham. Until then, faith is left to triumph over deception. Translation is making one authors words and meaning available to another people of another language, and in another time. Both The Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham do that. The translator, Joseph Smith Jr, barely knew English alone. His translation, however it occurred, was strictly by “the gift and power of God.” He admits he was not a professional linguist. Anachronisms only hold value until they are refuted by a single discovery. Be patient. Don’t jump ship too early. I remember when they used to say Alma was not an Egyptian or Hebrew name, until it was discovered on the Dead Sea scrolls. The others will fall in like fashion. The so-called unique idiosyncrasies are the English words that make translations flow in their new language. Too many people forget that Joseph Smith was not translating the gold plates into the time period of the Book of Mormon people, but into the language and time period of 1829, so everything is exactly as it should be. I do however think it is funny that you do not think those who said Joseph Smith translated with the seer stone in his hat were honest. Perhaps they made up the whole hat thing then. Chuckle. The internet is in Africa. I have used it there. The church grows there because the people are hungry for the truth and hungry for the word of God, and hungry for the promised restoration. No doubt John will dissuade some from the faith as he does, and he will likely chuckle about it when he reads this, but that will be upon him. All I want to do is to bring people to Christ, the living Christ who has restored His church to the earth. Be as happy as you can be. I know I will too in my own way. Yes I love this faith, and I love the bridle it applies to my passions. I know it is true. You will think that trite, but I don’t. It is true. May you find eternal peace.

[@sixtwooneninety4865]

Next: Haleigh starts an Only Fans and begins her crusade to prove that the LDS church ruined her life!

[@sixtwooneninety4865]

@@arianae6706 Did you leave for the same reasons? Because of questions that have already been resolved satisfactorily?

[@sixtwooneninety4865]

@@arianae6706 I doubt my comment will do as much damage as the regurgitation of third hand stories and faulty logic that plagues ex-mo circles.

[@sixtwooneninety4865]

@@arianae6706 My initial comment surely came off as the satire it was intended to be?

[@sixtwooneninety4865]

@@arianae6706 I'm not sheltered from the world purely because I'm a member of the church.

[@DiCollard]

Do you know what really bothers me about all these anti-Mormon videos, lectures… Etc.… Is that you don’t even listen to your own stories. Because all of you testified of having the truth of the Holy Ghost bear witness to your souls. If there is truth, you feel the spirit testify to you. Then you exercise faith. Faith. Not a knowingness. As your faith grows like a seed…then the fruit of that faith produces fruit- which you all tasted. But then you tossed it away… You felt the truth-fullness of the Book Of mormon. And you let others and Satan talk you out of it…..The very fact that the book of Mormon exists is a miracle! Everything about it is a miracle!To even consider that it was plagiarized makes me sad for you. All of you. And then you decided… To disbelieve. That is a choice you chose to walk away. Because of your own pride full Ness you chose… Yes the church has imperfect people as Prophets and leaders! That’s who God has to work with. Just like Missionaries- young and innocent. I hope you love all of the notoriety that you’re getting. Hope it’s worth losing your souls over. You’re all so SURE you’re right! Pride comes before the fall…..pride and ego. Take it from one who was mislead and deceived from Satan. I know.