MY THOUGHTS ON THE SPIDER GENE

[@chiefjawhawki911]

I was originally against the spider gene, but NERD slowly convinced me that the neurological issue was blown out of proportion. This led me to buying an Enchi Spinnerblast proven-breeder male from them and the second I opened the bag, I decided I wouldn't breed him and that I would never buy from NERD again. He's beyond screwed, easily gets panicked if his entire body isn't touching the ground (no sense of up or down), and takes over an hour to eat. He's also never successfully grabbed f/t rats two inches in front of him. He'll live a long life and has never given me any real problems as a keeper, but it still revolts me that they bred him.

[@Amehdion]

I am looking into getting my first ball python and honestly, being so new to the world of ball pythons, didn't know what to think about the whole spider gene issue. I have seen people on both sides of the argument, but the more I see the less I want anything to do with spiders or the breeders who sell spiders. There is a clear ethical problem at play here, money vs the health of the animals these people claim to love. I find it hard to trust companies like NERD, to me they seem more interested in making money than producing quality animals. After watching their video where they showed their "worst" spider named lefty (named for the fact her neurological issue makes her tilt her head to the left), I was appalled they would breed that snake. They claimed "there wasn't an issue," while in the same sentence calling her obvious neurological problem "cute."

[@rasmachris94]

That must have been heartbreaking to experience.

[@ogalbo4435]

@@Amehdion Before you start saying that spider is being breed for money please understand that literally nobody on this Earth is making a living selling spider ball pythons. It's an old gene that has had it's glory days and is only breed because it's just there half the time. And the other half of the time it's because people just like the way it looks. Not because of money.

[@Amehdion]

​@@ogalbo4435 ALL these snake morphs are being bred for money. That's how the business works. Spider is not special in this regard. Just because spider isn't as popular today as it once was, that doesn't mean companies like NERD didn't make tons of money off of them. If you think that there is no money to be made in spiders then it shouldn't be a big deal to stop selling them, right?

[@ogalbo4435]

@@Amehdion You're talking to someone who breeds balls pythons and also has a deep appreciation for the different color and pattern mutations. First of all yes NERD made their money back in the day and so did other people. Also I have less then 2 spiders in my collection out of the 40+ snakes I have. There is currently almost no money to be made breeding specifically for spider. I think it's a big deal to stop breeding them because of the love that people have for the pattern. I personally don't like the thin lines that spider makes so thats another reason I don't breed it. Do you understand what craze the bumblebee(spider pastel) made?? How many people that one combo alone got into the hobby? Thats why it would be a shame if people stopped breeding them. At this point spider literally has nothing to do with money unless you are selling hundreds of spiders a year.

[@rebeccagoldsmith991]

I really struggle when people try to justify breeding spiders by comparing them to autism. Autism does not cause that kind of neurological issue. If people were breeding dogs that couldn't stand because of a severe neurological issue there would be hell on. It makes me question if they truly care for the animal. I'm severely disabled, I wont have kids cause the thought of bringing something that cannot thrive is something I cannot live with even if it's just a chance. People who still insist on breeding morphs they know combined may only survive a year are the same. Spider/kinking/dog inbreeding are all in the same boat to me. My snakes are my babies and they deserve the best chance in life not risk a life of internal turmoil.

[@tracym6297]

I understand what you're saying. And I feel the same way. I would never breed something that I know has a poor chance at thriving. But to bring the government in, like people are wanting to do, is a dangerous thing. I rescue and take in sulcata tortoises. They've been bred to the point of being dumped and pretty much to the "a dime a dozen" category. People keep posting how bad breeding is and how people should have to have breeding licenses. Once government gets involved, animals get banned. It isn't a good thing at all. I couldn't imagine not being able to have my tortoises. I don't breed any animals but believe people should have that option. Most will opt not to. 😊

[@tamaraarcher855]

Spider ball pythons would be more like if people used invitro/designer baby methods to create Autistic children and your only justification for doing so was because they thought Autistic children were cute. People with disabilities can live just as fulfilling lives as those without, the same goes for animals. The issue (at least ethically) comes when we consider WHY we are doing it. For spiders, it is because they look cool and make money. You're right though it is a nonsensical comparison.

[@sinokoperkowa]

I agree with you. But breeding dogs is as troublesome. Maybe not dogs that could not stand but breeding dogs that have trouble breathing (pugs, English bulldogs) and need a caesarian to give birth is still a norm. There is outrage from true animal lovers, but they are sadly still one of the most popular breeds. It really says something about people, that want "cute" or fashionable animal instead of healthy one. It is sadly as prevalent in dog breeding (if not even more) as in reptile breeding.

[@queenmelisandre1442]

@@sinokoperkowa the thing about the "unable to walk" vs "pug nose" analogy is that the breathing issues isnt "visible" so to speak. people can have those dogs for years and not even notice the breathing issues. but if people were mass breeding dogs who literally just couldnt walk because their legs cant stop wobbling or something, then you bet there would be more outrage than it is about some of the other "below surface" defects that come with breeding dogs. people lose their minds over defects they can see and are unsightly.

[@niedas3426]

In addition, autism does not cause any suffering and does not impede people's lives in any shape or form. Autistic people just work differently and that's completely ok. The main issue for autistic people is that our society has valued certain things, like picking up on subtle social clues, more than others. If an autistic person suffers, it's society's fault, not theirs. Compare that to spiders, who sometimes can't even properly move because of corkscrewing, or who bite themselves when feeding. It's a very stark contrast.

[@cryin.gfrog222]

My cat had his eye removed as a baby, and the surgery site got infected. Though we treated that infection, it apparently spread to his brain, because he now has moderate-severe neurological problems. Seeing the change in his demeanor from before this issue to now, I can't imaging INTENTIONALLY creating animals with this kind of problem. It DOES affect their quality of life and nobody can change my mind.

[@whifflingtit9240]

Comparing brain damage from injury and infection to an inborn neurological disorder is like comparing apples to oranges. They have completely different causes and completely different effects on the animal and their quality of life. That said, people need to do their best to AVOID breeding known health problems in their animals. The animal clearly isn't going to do as well as an animal who doesn't have the issue, everyone should choose to bring the healthiest animals possible into the world and minimize the numbers of less healthy ones.

[@Herp0]

ok?

[@wes788411]

Whiffling Tit your comparison is a little ridiculous.

[@mavel2038]

@@whifflingtit9240 can compare it to CH. A neurological condition dogs and cats are born with. None of them are being bred because they have cool markings. Those animals also have a much better quality of life than Spiders even with more severe cases.

[@victorthevloggerrr8127]

Finally someone who thought about the health before the beauty,much respect

[@ClintsReptiles]

Thank you for expressing your thoughts on this sensitive subject. I agree with your thoughts about the dangers of banning spider ball pythons. They do better in captivity than the vast majority of species we keep in this hobby. If we ban them, we open the door to widespread bans.

[@thejunkyarddogman4608]

Clint's Reptiles I agree love you Clint.

[@bettymorgan4737]

I agree with Clint and I think the people who want to make a ban should take a hard look at themselves. A lot of animals raised for food are bred very poorly and treated really bad, but hey cheap eggs and chicken. Ever heard of Tumbler Pigeons ? How about French bulldogge... I could go on. Spider ball pythons are the "in" rant in the reptile community just now .

[@jackp9570]

Betty Morgan I’m not sure of your point. Because there are some other awful breeding habits in the world based on financial gain and a desire for “cuteness” it’s okay to do it to snakes?

[@IrieRogue]

Indeed sir, always appreciate your two cents Clint!

[@bettymorgan4737]

@@jackp9570 I don't believe breeding spider ball pythons is cruel, Clint and Matt at Olympus reptiles helped me to come to that viewpoint.My point is that many of the people on the “ban the spider band wagon " are hypocrites.

[@sherrybrzeczka7966]

You hit the nail on the head. Moral Compass or a quest for financial gain. I appreciate your insights and your championing of our Freedoms. Thank you.

[@FreedomAnderson]

Freedom disagrees with Spider Ball Pythons.

[@teofiloljubisavljevic7943]

@@FreedomAnderson 😂😂 good one freedoom

[@guardiansanimalrescuestate7289]

Finally a person who cares more about ethics and the animals life, rather then money. Thank u Dave. I’m a brand new sub and so glad I found your channel recently. I feel the same way about breeding pugs and French bull dogs. They all have smashed faces and can’t breathe right. Many think they r so cute when they snore and breathe loudly. It’s not cute. They can’t breathe. The only way to fix this problem is by surgery. And most owners don’t get the surgery. They don’t want to pay for it. And then they turn around and breed them and make more dogs who can’t breathe. Wow. Blows my mind away. Thanks Dave. So much respect.

[@FreedomAnderson]

As someone in a wheelchair, I don’t support breeding animals known to have genetic defects. I don’t understand how anyone could knowingly do that.

[@moopleaf]

I had a BEL ball python that somehow had a severe wobble since day one. She recently passed due to unrelated causes, but the entire time I had her it looked like she was suffering. She would hit her head into things, flinch extremely hard, could hardly strike straight or even stay rightside up. Despite her eating and shedding fine, no matter what I was told I could NOT believe that she was living a comfortable life. It’s sad to say but when I froze and buried her it was almost relieving to not see her head moving like that anymore. Even though her case was much more severe than most, I honestly can not imagine wanting to breed an animal with an issue like that of any magnitude of just for a nice pattern and some extra cash. I feel that there’s SO many other genes out there that breeders could work with. That being said, yes it IS ultimately their choice. I think expos can be allowed to ban the sales of certain morphs considering they run it as a private event, but it definitely is ridiculous to outlaw such a niche issue.

[@moopleaf]

@Austin Mark yep, neither me nor the breeder could figure it out and he had never noticed. I'm assuming something went wrong during incubation. Thankfully it has nothing to do with the spider gene but I've still seen the extent of the wobble either way 😬

[@amaravega838]

Even though you probably didn't know then, please don't freeze your snakes to euthanize them. :( It's not a painless death for them like once was believed. Snake Discovery made a wonderful video on the best way to euthanize, which is I believe titled How to Euthanize. But yes, it breaks my heart seeing the spiders suffer. Super Cinnamon has horrible kinking. :(

[@moopleaf]

RicaXIII Vega oh sorry I should clarify, she passed on her own before I froze her! She went relatively quick and I made sure that she hadn’t moved for over an hour before freezing to make sure she was completely gone first. I’m a huge fan of snake discovery!

[@digitalice7875]

Your BEL I'm sure had the spider gene. It was hidden by the combination of breeding 2 snakes each having the lucistic genes. 2 lucistics will create white snakes no matter what the other genes in the snakes have for color combos. I don't think the lucistic genes eliminate any internal defects, only the color.

[@Viridoviperas]

Personally, I am perfectly fine with a general ban on the reproduction of all animals that have inherent health issues that lead to a reduced quality of life, including dogs with stubbed/short noses or similar.

[@scalesinthesnow6457]

Ok but where do we draw the line? while the brachy breeds have issues they are not the only ones. Dalmatians have urinary issues and stones. Cavalier king Charles spaniels have a skull too small for their brain in some cases which as you can imagine is painful. Golden retrievers, Dobermans and other deep chested breeds are prone to genetic heart conditions that they can drop dead from. Boxers almost always die from cancer. Some before their third birthday. This issue with banning blindly is that it doesn't leave the door open to improve the animal in question. Sure I don't mind not having a spider in my collection, or an enigma leopard gecko. or a jaguar carpet. But where do we draw the line?

[@2cheetahseatingapumpkin502]

Scales InTheSnow You can’t breed the wobble out of the spider morph. The double merle gene in dogs almost always leads to blindness and/ or deafness and should 100% not be bred for. You CAN breed most of the issues mentioned in your comment out of dogs. Responsible breeders breed healthy dogs with no hereditary issues and that’s that. Animals with severe hereditary issues should not be bred. That’s not responsible breeding and is both unfair to the animal and completely nonsensical. All spider morphs have a wobble, and the wobble is hereditary along with the morph itself. Even if you breed a spider with a wobble so slight it’s by all means unnoticeable, it’s offspring could very well have extremely severe neurological issues. Spiders cannot be ‘improved’.

[@scalesinthesnow6457]

I disagree. At *this* time, we have not taken the time to breed out those traits. Something like 50% of Golden Retrievers have hereditary DCM and if not hereditary the are susceptible to food related DCM. I think there are only 2-3 lines of Dalmatian without the issue with urinary stones and it is because they were outcrossed to another breed of dog. But the sport world doesn't accept them as 'pure' due to the outcross. Rhodesian Ridgebacks are sometimes born with dermoid sinus. You can't 'breed it out' of the breed as it's caused by the ridge itself and obviously it's not a ridgeback without the ridge. It can cause infections, pain and so on long term. While not a wobble it is linked to the gene that causes that breed of dog to be that breed of dog and isn't bred away as right at this time - we aren't sure if you breed two healthy unaffected dogs if they will never produce a dog with that component. Again - I have 0 plans on breeding spiders, but I don't think they should be erased from the hobby. There is a possibility that we will have the opportunity in the future to correct this issue. And like albinos the first spider did factually live in the wild. So while some are bad, it's a naturally occurring gene that has survived in the wild in the past. They cannot be improved right now, just like so many other animals we breed. But that doesn't mean the technology isn't going to develop.

[@MichellePieon]

I 100% agree. We are knowingly breeding issues and that needs to stop. We should be improving the breeds not destroying them for vanity. It saddens me when I see so many animals with health issues because of how we’ve bred them. Harmful Defects in the wild do not survive. Survival of the fittest.

[@Delta-ei7im]

Scales InTheSnow ok so then yeah we shouldn’t breed them? I don’t understand your point. If you’re going to ask where do we draw the line and then point out the cases where animals are bred with debilitating illnesses, I’m just going to say that yes they do go over the line.

[@SkyeSpider]

I am new to snakes. That said, I’ve been keeping and breeding tarantulas for around 20 years and have a graduate degree studying them. My wife and I decided that we wanted to get a ball python for our pet family. We did lots of research about all the basics and got ourselves ready. The spider snakes caught my attention, mostly for the name, but I learned about their issues quickly and we decided not to get one of those. We went to a reptile show to find our snake and left with a really beautiful one. Despite knowing to avoid the spider morph, we ended up with a spider cross. Since we didn’t know to learn every morph that has spider in it, we just asked if it was a spider. Nope, it’s a bumblebee. All seemed well and we brought him home. It’s been a few months and he’s doing well, but we do see some issues here and there (every once in a while, his head rips upside down briefly). It doesn’t seem to bother him much, and we still love him. We never intended to breed snakes, so he’s going to be just a pet. We’re both autistic, so we just look at him as if he’s just like us: disabled, but still awesome. My point in this, we knew to avoid this gene and still ended up with a snake that has it. Unless you’re deep into the hobby, it’s hard to keep track of all of this stuff. Even doing our research, we didn’t know what we didn’t know and walked right into what we were trying to avoid. As far as the government getting involved: NO. I’m as far to the left as you can be, politically, but I’ve seen the results of this stuff first hand. Unless legislators know first hand about a topic, they’ll screw it up. Two examples: I grew up in Florida. When I was younger, I worked as a body piercer for a while. Florida decided to regulate tattoos and piercings. They got an “expert” (the head of the professional tattoo alliance or something similar) and had this one guy draft the bill. A big tattoo group was going to fight against it, but we’re able to strike a deal where tattooing would stay mostly unregulated in return for them not fighting the piercing stuff. The law was written and it did nothing to help close filthy shops. The regulations were just loopholes you could jump through with a little money, and all piercers had to pay a lot of money every year for a license that only verified you knew how to put gloves on. It also straight up banned several body art practices that were safe in the right hands- forcing them into underground sources (usually hotel rooms at tattoo conventions), taking away any hope of sterile conditions you could get before the law. Second example: Also in Florida, they have issues with invasives. No surprise. So they wanted to ban multiple animals common in the pet trade. While Burmese pythons were a good add (look at what they’re doing in the Everglades if you disagree), they added many things that made no sense- praying mantises, scorpions, degus (I may be misremembering that one), etc. you couldn’t even get a permit to keep them, despite them being no risk. They went in to handle a ban on Burmese pythons, iguanas, and red eared sliders. They came out with a ban on Burmese and many other things, but not iguanas or the turtles. The whole bill got warped by irrational fears like, “I saw a picture of a mantis eating a bee, so they might destroy the honey industry!” Mantids almost never eat bees, so there was no reason for that ban or most of the others (I won’t argue for Nile monitors given the ease at which large reptiles establish there). Point is, taking this stuff to government rarely ends how you intend it. That’s a risk you have to accept when you do it. If you think they’ll ban one morph, you’re wrong. It’ll include other stuff. Also, the hobby should do a better job of putting out info on these morphs that have the spider gene. I wish we’d been able to make a more informed decision on our snake. The most I would ever consider is asking shows to ban those morphs from being sold. That would really cut into their presence, I think.

[@Jarblyy]

Perfectly stated.

[@ryanawilson8549]

Thank you for thinking of the wellbeing of the animal first

[@DanMaganoSnakes]

I’m so glad you posted this. I also hated seeing the babies suffering like that. It wears on you. Ethically and emotionally. So inspire of all the people posting this I’m glad you did it too!

[@AnneHughesVaderMom]

We need more moral and ethical breeders that are educated in genetics out there ... more heart in the industry like you

[@andylydon8416]

I wouldn't expect anything else from you but professionalism, honesty and intelligence. You did not disappoint. Thank you for this video!!

[@BlitzkriegStaffords]

when you place the health of animals over your own wants and desires as a breeder you can tell that you truly love and respect an animal. this is called ethical breeding! beautiful snake and great video. you have my respect sir!

[@Shadow61616]

After watching this video, I grew more respect for any person who loves animals. There are little to no people who would want to bring pain onto their own kids, and your snakes are your family. Huge respect as a man and animal enthusiast.

[@herpermike_]

I was a very healthy and active 34 year old man and I randomly had a stroke and now I'm 41 lol and I now have seizures which I had never had before! But I'm telling you, that the way that the spiders act is exactly how I feel when I'm having a seizure! And it's terrifying to go through! I can promise you from first hand account!

[@fwiffo]

Actually, people CAN tell you what to do with animals. You can't torture your animals; that's animal cruelty, and it's against the law. You can't hunt endangered species. I'm not saying that breeding a particular gene is animal cruelty. I know it's not black and white. If you knowingly produce animals with serious disabilities, in my opinion, you're damaging the hobby. Enigma leopard geckos are awful. You're projecting an image that reptile keepers are cruel people who don't care about animal welfare. It's irresponsible. You're not protecting your liberty by abusing it.

[@Shorn_]

I think the thing that you're not connecting is that as the information gets out there, more and more people will share it until the majority opinion will shift and the market for spider ball pythons will dry up, forcing breeders to stop making them. Spread the word that the animals' welfare should always come before aesthetics, don't ask legislators (who are not as informed as people in the hobby) to solve a problem that's already being corrected as more and more breeders make videos like this.

[@fwiffo]

@@Shorn_ I don't think there should be a law, that sort of legislative micromanagement is always silly. But if private organizations running shows want to ban breeders from selling sick animals to uninformed buyers, I'm all for that.

[@Shorn_]

@@fwiffo True. I think that's another example of the free market correcting itself, and the way it should be.

[@fwiffo]

@@Shorn_ Then why are people so pissed at the IHS's ban? It's a private organization. That's the free market working, right? That's not the heavy hand of government. Maybe the whole libertarian "freedom" argument is just more bullshit used to rationalize irresponsible and deceptive behavior.

[@Shorn_]

@@fwiffo people are pissed because there are 7 billion of us all told with varying degrees of understanding on the what the spider Gene actually does. As people gain more and more knowledge on the subject and realize it's detrimental to the welfare of the animals, they'll stop wanting spiders in the first place. Once that happens, the companies' choice to self-police the breeds of animals will seem a matter of fact, but still only ever to the informed. That's the problem with the internet - you'll always hear every opinion and every shade between.

[@ReptileMountainTV]

Amen. Liberty is the most fundamental aspects of this country. It shall not be infringed. The idea of a governmental ban is a classic symptom of self righteousness and the Dunning-Kruger Effect sadly. I support private expos enforcing their personal beliefs (which is what the IHS did) as much as I support private breeders exercising there freedom to breed. Education and social pressure has been more effective to change culture than any law as you know. Thanks for this video. Your stance for freedom has really been awesome to see.

[@nikobiege7015]

Great video Dav! I have many spiders but I’m currently holding onto a few that have some neurological issues. They eat fine and they would breed fine if I let them. As Kevin said it’s a roll of the dice when you breed them and the offspring of my rather severe animals might be completely normal. I would just rather not risk it as one of my severe animals had a severe mother, a beautiful bumble enchi who was my breeder for years.

[@datgurl12121]

I think there needs to be more awareness. I would be fine if they mandated that all breeders have to inform customers that spiders need a bit of an extra keen eye when it comes to husbandry because stress can cause further issues. I'm shook that it took me years of looking into balls before finding out about the spider issues.

[@datgurl12121]

@M K well where does banning start? I'm sure there's thousands of clutches of spiders right now. Do you throw em out? I'm not opposed to banning them personally, but there needs to be some nuance involved. Start with a warning, let sales naturally die down, then ban.

[@waitnformyedward]

I think it’s important to remember that it’s NOT a ban from a government but rather from a company who is only banning spiders within their own events. I also don’t think a law is going to solve the issue because it would be incredibly difficult to enforce, and what would happen to the snakes that already exist? The important question here is: does this impact the snake’s quality of life? It’s not possible to say that this egg is going to have a severe wobble and that one isn’t. So we should focus on educating those who do not understand the risks, and encourage people to make an informed decision. And I think that we should 1000% also talk about the other morphs with traits like the spider. But while I don’t think a law is the answer, I do think that the snake is the most important part of the conversation. Not that the pattern is beautiful, but that we as keepers are doing everything we can to give our animals the best life possible from creation onwards.

[@rustyolgun]

Well said Sir 🙏

[@jdm8702]

Missed this video on my normal KZbin binging. Most intelligent breakdown of the conversation about them. Nice.

[@WildLife_Perspective]

This is probably one of the best videos on the spider bp controversy that Is on YT in my opinion. I agree with you! The idea of banning them in the US is crazy! Like you said we have the ability to police ourselves. Personally I think they can be bread if they have little to no wobble. I'm hopefully going to be taking part in breeding a female spider to a banana male next season which is very exciting! But if I find that the offspring have anything severe or just don't do well than I will obviously no longer take part in that breeding project.

[@caitwn8548]

Not replying to give you a hard time, but just to share some info: from what we know of the spider gene(s) so far, there's just no way of predicting the severity of the neurological issues in offspring, regardless of how severe or mild the manifestation is in the parents. Maybe someday we will understand more, but right now we aren't even clear on how many genes may be involved, much less more specific details. So breeding a snake that has the gene(s) but has little to no wobble is no guarantee of what will happen with offspring.

[@WildLife_Perspective]

@@caitwn8548 Yes I don't know how severe the babies will be if they have any head wobble at all but like the mother I'm hoping that they will have basically no head wobble. I'm not really sure how it works when you're talking about the babies having the same thing as the parents or even worse. Obviously if the baby's don't do well then I won't continue with that. I guess you could say that I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge with the spider gene but that is why I'll be breeding them so I can see for myself.

[@calamitynatalie8590]

People need to be aware too that spider isn’t banned here, you just can’t sell them at expos

[@WildLife_Perspective]

@@calamitynatalie8590 yes I would say that that gets mixed up a lot in the reptile community.

[@inhumanlypatient]

Your stand on freedom is truly American, and you're a true animal lover. You are a great spokesman for the hobby in America.

[@firedrake7179]

Excellent example of how when left alone, We The People will make the right decision for the common good. The U.S. Constitution is the world’s most brilliant libertarian document ever put into force. There will never be another like it. American is the best experiment in self governance to ever happen. Thanks for your insite and thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me in Anaheim today. I was the one who mentioned the anaconda pic on LinkedIn that got so many people riled up. You’re the best my friend. I hope the natives here in Cali were good to you this trip. Safe travels. And did you just mention a colab with Run DME? So insane! I think it is the colab video you did at Kusko’s house that I commented on that yours and Dan’s channels were my most favorite underrated and under watched of all the HerpTube channels! Boy do I know how to pick ‘em! Peace my brother!!!! Until we meet again...

[@grettelguerra7511]

Hi Dāv, thanks for making this video and better late than never. With all the conflicting information out there on this topic, I think it’s important for newbie ball python breeders to hear this kind of first-hand account from someone in the hobby as experienced, highly respected and well reputed as you. As much as I respect Kevin and Brian B, they’re speaking from their “in-the-best-of-circumstances” first-hand experience when clearly there are others who are having a very different experience with this gene and the resulting catastrophic aftermath. This is one case where I feel a gene ought be judged by its worst-case-scenario of which anecdotally there are plenty of examples. Too many. Breeders are striving for beauty and market success but at what cost? I can’t help but think of that admittedly stunning albino leopard gecko you recently featured at an expo that literally couldn’t open its eyes from the discomfort. Would any of us want to go through life unable to simply open our eyes in a lit room? If you don’t see an issue there, then clearly there’s a lack of empathy at play. We’ve appointed ourselves stewards of these reptiles and every individual life ought be precious and cherished.

[@lsuhillary]

Grettel Guerra VERY well stated!!

[@ophidianexotics8439]

I love that you are so reasonable and logical. I agree that it’s a personal decision you have to make as a breeder. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who need everyone to think as they do so if they are against the spider gene they want to stop others from breeding it as well. It’s definitely a slippery slope like you stated. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[@lorih6375]

I know this comment is a super simplistic response to your video, but you’re a really nice guy. I really appreciated this video. So well done.

[@stefanpdreid1364]

Finally a responsible breeder. You really care for the animals. Thank you very much You can breed beautiful snakes without the terrible gene.

[@douglasbeauchamp9161]

Well said Dav anybody who thinks the government should be involved needs their heads examined. I also want to thank you for mentioning the other morphs that have issues and I agree that it seems that the spider gene gets all the attention and it drives me crazy. I do have one spider axanthic female I love the look of the spider but have been leaning more towards the pinstripe as of late. Do more vids like this when you have the time. Thanks again for a great discussion on a hot topic.

[@timfoil2319]

I really like were your head is at when it comes to bans or government encroachment for that matter. I’m so tired of the man pissing all over my rights. You are quickly becoming my favorite reptile channel on KZbin. Great talk. Love this video

[@leogeck7350]

As I mentioned in many other comments, if you get a Spider which has a bad loop, you could be stuck with a special needs pet for around 30 years if you're lucky/unlucky (depending on how much you treasure your snake). And that's why so many rescue Spiders have that problem. I have one, I love him and I struggle now and then. I'd love to do research on the topic, but I don't have any idea where to start. I adore your Pieds, btw 💕! Thanks for being an awesome, fact based guy and channel!

[@caitwn8548]

Very good video - better than almost all of the others I have seen on the topic. You put the facts out there in a concise and balanced way. I agree that bans are not a good solution, but I get really sick of some other youtubers that dance around the problems and try to rationalize that it's OK to propagate them. Much respect for your integrity.

[@PhinClio]

I appreciate your opinion on spider ball pythons. And fwiw I don't own ball pythons and I don't have an opinion on whether or not they should be banned. But I do have a PhD in U.S. history. And the notion that the government banning the breeding of a particular morph would somehow be a violation of the founding principles of this country is off base. Laws against animal cruelty existed in the colonies. After independence, New York passed an animal cruelty law in the early 19th century, when some of the founders were still alive. Liberty was a key value for the framers of the constitution, but it was not an absolute one. Whether or not spider ball pythons should be banned cannot be resolved by invoking the Founding Fathers.

[@thebelovedtree]

Agreed. I don't want government regulation because the reptile laws we have so far are counterproductive and clearly written by people with no understanding of the industry or animals. We're protected from turtles under 4" so instead they give away baby iguanas at our local fair. That is not better! The reptile industry could certainly use more regulation and reptiles shouldn't be excluded from animal cruelty laws but nobody who knows what they're doing will be funded and put in charge.

[@vomrabenauge]

Excellently said. I've had a handful of spiders now and I've yet to see any issue with them, but as someone who's owned such a small number compared to people who've bred the gene for years, my scope on the situation is very narrow. It's the current climate in dogs and whether we should be banning tools or Greyhound racing or sledding and it's just such a slippery slope. I run my dogs on a treadmill but I'm not a dog fighter. I do schutzhund with my dogs, but they are not beaten into biting. It requires ethical and moral insight to decide what you, personally, are comfortable with, but you should not impart those on others or expect a governing body to impart those things on others. Thank you for your time and your opinion. It's good to hear from all sides, honestly, so we can all form our own opinions.

[@crystaltripi7574]

You really are an inspiration, it’s so obvious you have such a passion for every critter in your personal care or out free roaming around. Thank you for your knowledge and taking this gal out of West Virginia as I watch and very much enjoy your reptile adventures. Best wishes always ☺️

[@WikkidVyxen]

This was a very enlightening and informative vid. Well done Dav.🖤 Under no circumstances do I want the government involved in any aspect of my personal life, especially regarding my reptiles. We as a community have fought long and hard to change the perception of reptiles in the public eye. Why would anyone want to jeopardize the progress thats been made, over a personal opinion? Not only ridiculous but scary. I really enjoy these types of vids, keep it up! AND, wow, can't wait for your trip with Dan! He and Apple are awesome people! 🖤

[@Tinyvalkyrie410]

I think the fact that people care about spiders is proof that perceptions of reptile keeping has changed, not a threat to it. It means people really finally seeing snakes as animals that deserve to have their welfare tended to just like other pets. It proves people care about their wellbeing and see them as capable of suffering. People are caring that these animals have good lives, and that is always a good thing. Bringing issues like this out into the open just makes a case for reptile hobbiests being just like any other pet owner that wants puppy mills shut down, and bulldogs to live longer.

[@theodoretibbitts9538]

I actually really enjoyed this video, and I wasn’t expecting to. You took a nice nuanced approach that I agree with 100%. I had a pet spider ball python when I first got into balls, and he had a slight wobble. He often missed strikes during feeding, but he ate fine if you drop fed him. In general I feel like a lot of people’s concerns are overblown, and I do think they can survive and thrive, as we have seen. But I also think the wobble is definitely real, and, like you, I make the personal choice not to breed them. But I don’t necessarily think other people are making the wrong moral choice if they do breed them AS LONG AS they take good care of them and ensure they survive and thrive, which a lot of breeders going for $$$ do not. And the last thing I would want is the government stepping in to ban anything - we have enough of that as it is. It should be a personal choice, as you said, and I think people can make that choice ethically, but you have to hold them to that choice, and judge them by their results and their care. My spider was happy and healthy, but I chose not to make more. If you choose to make more, its your job to ensure they are happy and healthy, and if you cannot ensure that, you shouldn’t make more.

[@SherryLynnMadcat]

There are people fighting for their rights to keep and/or breed specific animals as it is and then there are other people who wish to ban people's rights to keep and/or breed specific animals. It is amazing how many people wish to take away others' rights to choose. Your thoughts on the whole situation are spot on. Forcing bans upon people's actions is not a good thing. There is so much that would hinge on that form of decision and so much for people to lose.

[@PoppingCrowns]

I think this is such a difficult issue to solve. I agree that this isn’t the type of issue our federal government should weigh in on. However, I also don’t believe it should be left up to individuals do with as they please. I agree with the UK banning the sale of spiders at expo. It makes it slightly more difficult to make money off selling them and discourages the breeding without banning them all together. The bottom line is that you are aware when breeding that some of these snakes will have a neurological issue, and I think to continue breeding with that knowledge is unethical. I applaud you for your decision to stop.

[@rpmotorwerks]

Nailed it Dave. I don't think young people now have a clear understanding of how individuals and organizations can make changes without the help of government legislation. You provided a great example of how one individual can impact the industry by simply deciding to produce or not produce a type of animal. If that choice makes sense to others then it will proliferate. If it doesn't make sense then it will still be your decision and your life will have changed in the direction that YOU CHOSE; not in a direction chosen FOR you. Thanks for the video!

[@mewho7903]

THANK YOU Dav! You chose not to work with the spider ball any longer, but you seem to respect everyone's choice and freedom to own them or not. It was a very interesting watch. I personally choose to work boas mostly, i am working with albino and snow and trying to work my way up to Princess/Emperor Diamond Lucy(Leucistic) Super Fire etc. I get nauseated when i go to reptile conventions and it's 95% or more ball python variants. I get why it's that way, but there are sooooo many interesting snakes and reptiles out there. I myself have only 2 ball pythons, and they are normals, and i find the normals to be the prettiest ball pythons. If i WAS to focus on a ball python morph, I would get into Leucistic, something all black like a super cinny, or an especially attractive pied. But I personally am fine with the spider trait, i would happily care for one whether it corkscrewed or wobbled or not (such as if someone needed to rehome one). I think people as a whole need to be willing to hear one another out, even if they disagree. I have heard intelligent arguments for and against spider trait. I am more of the mind of Clint's Reptiles or Kevin at NERD, if there are plenty of spider balls that feed, shed, and rest normally, there is no reason to get rid of them, or to tell people they cannot care for them. And who in their right mind goes to the government and asks them to take away our freedoms? I mean really, people. USARK is fighting hard enough for our rights to keep the reptiles we do have. Let's spread the message of ethical and responsible pet ownership, not demonize pets, traits, or anything a bit different. I don't think there is enough scientific data to support "most/all spider ball pythons suffer", it is really hard to say that when SOOOOO many people have kept and bred healthy spider balls that live full and happy lives and produce some stinkin' rad offspring. If science proves otherwise in the future, proves the majority of snakes with the spider trait suffer in some way, i may change my stance. That is my right as an American, to have an opinion, and I am happy to hear other/conflicting Intelligent! discussion on it.

[@brandyswett5245]

I appreciate this video. I agree no one should tell you not to do it. My husband and I recently bought our first snake....a pastel spider ball python.....I didn't know anything about snakes or ball pythons before buying (we were one of 'those' buy on spur of moment people...But I did come home with tons of info (nothing from the breeder about spider python issues) and learned so much more. My thinking is it shouldn't be banned, and I may have still bought our spider,....we love her! But I do think that if you are breeding spiders, you should have he moral compass to know you may be raising that snake for its life and if you do sell...you need to tell the potential new owner the issues with at animal and let them decide. Another way to think of it as well...animals with potential issues may need potential specialized care and you want those people to be aware, and able to provide that care before they get it home. I watch our Tinkerbell a lot and I dont think she is suffering or panicked or in pain...and she seems fine and loves life. That is really what matters too.

[@anntowle1706]

Very nice to hear you speak in favor of our constitutional rights. I'm in my 60's, young people need to hear from people like you about the danger of involving government in our businesses and our private lives. They got a much different spin on the part Uncle Sam should be playing. As far as Spider BPs, I live in NH, I've seen Kevin bring out numerous SBPs on his channel with little to no head wobble. He also has other beautiful morphs with spider in the mix with no apparent neurological issues. I had the same thoughts as you about the few extreme examples I saw regarding them being exposed to something that might exacerbate their condition, were they exposed to a chemical or abused or neglected. Who knows? Anyway, I enjoy watching your adventures, I'm a little jealous😉

[@robertmollanjr6928]

Rightly said, we as people can do this. The government already tells you what you can and can't do on to many things. We as hobbyists can manage this situation. I enjoyed this video and all of your other videos very much, keep on doing what your doing.

[@Pandaface30512]

I'm British and didn't even know we had that law about the Spider gene selling at expos. Personally I don't like the effect the gene has, it does create some beautiful snakes so it'll be people weighing up the look over the neurological cost of working with the gene. I've just got my first Royal/Ball Python and he is a pied as so far they are my favourite so I agree with you that they are amazing! Keep up the good work and fantastic content. Rattle On!

[@frankanderson9833]

I completely agree with you. No ban. Your argument is very concise and cogent. Good work. Would I buy or breed them? No, but that's my decision.

[@kittreid704]

Dāv, I absolutely love your take on this. Not only on the "government isn't your friend" line, but on the need to highlight other morphs with these issues. I, for one, am against a ban and humbly remind everyone calling for one to vote with their wallets on this one.

[@douglynch9012]

I'm not in to the Ball Python craze but I totally agree with your opinion of keeping the government out of this issue. I recently was at a dinner party with friends and one of the other guests felt like ownership of all snakes should be banned by the government because they're "wild animals". Never mind that all my snakes are captive bred and born. I reminded her that all domestic breeds of dogs are descendents of wild animals through selective breeding. We already have too many lousy reptile laws on the books now, we don't need another.

[@goldengirl9845]

Even though this video was later , it was the best video I ever have seen. That gene is so beautiful and truly is unfortunate that they have such issues , but it takes a brave person to change course the way you have. I am a huge fan of you now! You are just pure hearted and honest. New sub for sure. This is funny how this is the first video I’ve ever seen from you, but you speaking from the heart spoke to mine. May the pied force be with you. Lol

[@jimj927]

AWESOME VIDEO DAVE! Hands Down one of the best explanations of this situation! Govs should Always follow our forefather's rules. That's why they're there! An for Good Reason! Banning isn't the way. Should be up to the breeder, as long as the breeder makes buyer aware of what possibly can be an issue. Or effect that type of morph. So this way new hobbyists have knowledge of what they're buying or can possibly be an issue now or down the line. Well Done Dave!

[@jesusbeloved3953]

This is one of your best videos. I love history, but my degree is in law. You are absolutely correct to take the stance you have. Knowing the government as I do, within a decade, very few unregulated breeders would be in business. The government would regulate the reptile industry to death! Not to start a huge argument, but look what they are trying to do with guns. We have the right to bare arms. The government, some of them, are working diligently to divest us of our rights. Snakes and lizards would be so much easier. There’s not the huge voice (read: money) behind them as there are gun hunters. So, yes, my friend, I totally agree with you, leave the government where it belongs; out of our lives!

[@CharredMander]

Thank you, for doing the right thing. It shows you truly care about the animals. That decision effects the entire industry as a whole for the better.

[@jonzaremba]

Your take on this is 100% spot on. And you made the right personal decision.

[@BobbyE78]

Its 100% moral compass as you stated. The government should not be involved, and if people stop buying the spider morph, the desire to breed will subside and the problem will fix itself. Until the next morph comes out with issues.....but you hit the nail on the head and explained it best Dav.

[@sandyelliott3350]

You're so right about husbandry affecting neurological issues. I have neurological problems and simple things like stress, sleep and food really affect it.

[@Error_404_Account_Deleted]

A Constitutionalist and historian. 🇺🇸 You rock even MORE now. 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸 And a Raiders of the Lost Ark reference. 🤘🏻🤯

[@staceyroberts3468]

I admire your opinion and u sharing it. I think a lot of people wanna tip toe around that bag of worms and I know it took some going back and forth on posting. You make valid points that I tossed in this head of mine. Ha There r many species we could have this discussion about. I like discussing and not fighting 👍🏻 I’ve learned so much from u Dav. I love ya!!

[@dodgefreakingviper]

I totally agree...... I purchased a Spider python not knowing these issues existed until I purchased it.. Yes my Spider has the wobble... However it has gotten better with us working with him.. However I wish the breeder would have informed us about the issues prior to buying him... But I am also to blame for not researching the purchase beforehand.. Great Video

[@Phytoxane]

Awesome video, I want more like this. Because you have traveled and seen many breeders and ways of keeping around the world, your knowledge can help people make decisions for themselves. You can show the pros and the cons without forcing an opinion. I wish you would have explained/shown more about the effects of those genes in order to make this video more accessible to newbies. I worked in the reptile industry for more than 10 years and have seen myself the cons so I know what you are referring to. We chose a few years ago not to display any spiders-related ball python anymore at the petshop I worked at, especially since beginners make up most of our clientele. We inform people who still want to get them about the issues and they make their decision knowingly. I personally think we as a hobby should either stop breeding them, or if possible, work the issues out of the associated color morph. I'm glad to know you value animal well-being over esthetics.

[@BeckPamplin]

I was honestly pleasantly surprised by this video. Not because I agree with every point, but because I found the honesty refreshing of someone who doesn't breed them but doesn't support a ban. Personally, I do think that it's not entirely a matter of individual freedom. If the quality of life for the snakes is poor, or has a high chance of being poor, that in and of itself could technically constitute some sort of animal abuse. I am someone who deals with some genetic issues, you may even call them neurological. My family has a long history of mental illness, and drug/alcohol abuse. Personally, I struggle with six mental disorders, many of which, could have been exasperated by my surroundings, but it is clear that my family has a genetic predisposition for mental health issues. It is because of this that I don't feel right having my own children. My siblings all plan too, and that's fine for them (I struggle with mental health the most out of all of us, so maybe they missed those genes) but I find it very similar to spider ball pythons. Autism, which many people use as evidence against a ban, is trademarked by many things, but namely, it's just being different. Spider ball pythons seem to me to be more similar to my own genetics, except purposeful. It's as though someone was purposefully breeding someone to have mental illness because it would give their kid purple hair. Or genetically modifying a child to have down syndrome because you think it makes them look cute. I understand that Humans don't and shouldn't have the same rights as animals, however there does seem to be an inherent cruelty in breeding spider ball pythons. As for whether it's the governments place to instate a ban? I believe that it might be reasonable to say that they shouldn't if there was a more reliable way to do something similar on a local level. Why don't we give incentive to stop breeding them? Why don't we make it so it isn't banned, just frowned upon. I think that, and I could be wrong, the US constitution was designed for a time that had more focus on local community, which would make it far easier to simply discourage something to keep it from happening. In the modern day, the internet allows us to connect with more people, but also to have more choice about who we connect with. I'm happy to say that after watching my first video on spider ball pythons, I immediately searched out opposing view points, but that comes from years of trauma and pain questioning my own beliefs and working for a student newspaper for two years. In the modern Era, it's easy to only look for what you want to see, which makes large scale bans, on occasion, necessary. Would I support alternative methods that give less power to the government, YES. I don't exactly trust our current system, but I've mostly heard people either saying yes or no to the ban. Maybe we all need to look into the "What If's" a little more. What are other alternatives to get people to do the morally right thing without risking the principles on which our country was allegedly founded. Edit: I would like to clarify, I am in no way saying that people with genetic disorders or dispositions are worth less, or that people who have these issues shouldn't be allowed to have kids, but it's different to conceive and then realize your child has a genetic issue and love them anyway, then to conceive with the goal of continuing the genetic condition.

[@markhiller5364]

I rescued a spinner from a local pet store that said she had just stopped eating. Same day I brought her home she ate. The only time she ever started spiraling she made the conclusion her food size was too small and didnt eat for 2 weeks. She is back to normal now, I will never breed her, I will never buy a spider, but if I see a spider that needs to be taken in I will take it in and help it. I respect your decision Dav, to anyone who disagrees I respect your decision. Y'all have a great day.

[@noahdacheese839]

I love you and your work Kaufman, and I respect your opinion and decision to not breed spiders and other disabled morphs (I disagree with breeding super cinnysfor example), but because there are people who won't police themselves, I don't see any other option other than banning the sale of spiders at expos. People will still buy spiders if they dont care, and breeders can still breed them, but expos should not be involved in the sale and publc normalization of these disabled genes, because it's often at these expos that the gene is shown off, and a layperson wont know about the kinking or the neurological issues involved, and will instead just see a beautiful snake with a cute characteristic wobble. Removing them from expos seems like the best option right now, along with other dangerous morphs of geckos and snakes that get sold at these expos, and I feel strongly with having the health and safety of these animals over their beauty and worth.

[@IAMGiftbearer]

The problem with that is that if the expos start that it would encourage the other venues to ban more and more certain morphs. Sure there are people who breed irresponsibly and don't care about the snakes' wellbeing, but there are so many morphs that can have problems that soon we'd have various venues telling the industry what they can and can't breed or even show and the hobby will become even worse than those Facebook groups filled with people reporting each other for every little thing they think is a faulty gene. I don't even have any Spiders but I don't think it's a good idea to start picking off genes one by one because it will most likely lead to morphs that we may want to keep and they'll get banned just because certain groups in power decide over our heads which ones are "genetically inferior." They may not even be correct, but once the ball is rolling it tends to pick up momentum and is hard to stop.

[@joshuadelagarza999]

Amazing video. We should not allow there to be a ban on any morph of snake. Please do more videos like this. I love the knowledge you have of this and you genuinely care about the future of all of us reptile breeders. Thank you for everything you do. Keep it up Dav!

[@trouty65]

Dave you make a great point about breeders that just see dollar signs. Here in the UK i have been a ball python keeper for ten years, thanks to my daughter lo, i used to hate snakes :-( I have produced 2 clutches from my very small collection of snakes.The 2nd clutch was from a Killer Spinner " to an Enchi Fire. I hit the jack pot with 9 eggs, 4 of which were "Spinner Blasts) All of the babies were Amazing ! I agree with the previous comment , if these morphs were worth 5k still, none of these conversations would e happening. I am not in this hobby for money just pure love of these incredible creatures ! I have held back one male Spinner blast and am thinking of pairing him back to his mum at some point. I will never sell him or his mum and wish i could have kept all the babies but simply cannot due to space. Its an absolute shame that its come to this :-( The Spider gene is an amazing gene and i have never had any issues with it. None of the snakes i have seen with wobble look like they are in any way stressed or Uncomfortable. If the snakes were in any way suffering and could not feed, shed etc i would in no way want to pursue any form of breeding but all the time they can i don't see it as an issue. Proud to be the owner of such incredible morphs. Regards Paul

[@michaelshurak4609]

Thank you for putting this video out there... and I tell people that all the time about champagnes, HGW’s, albinos, and the cinnamon gene,, sort of the reason I stayed away from them and do not have a single one of those genes in my reptile family, DONT get me wrong, they are beautiful morphs BUT!! Continuing to make something to look cool to make money when there’s a strong chance of them not making it just is NOT humanly right at all and I wish people would stop doing that bc they think it looks cool and sells fast,, it wouldn’t sell fast if the breeders were actually informing the buyers interested in them before selling them to them just to get rid of it and make money, does NOT sit well with me,, so thank you again for stopping producing spiders

[@berraserry]

I agree- no bans required. Just responsible ethical breeders.

[@ForestExotics]

Thanks for the info and video

[@aloratalyn]

100% agree with you. Unfortunately I think as long as there's some spider ball pythons that don't have any signs of issues, people will continue to breed them. In hopes of trying to strengthen the gene, maybe. If that's even possible, I don't know. Thats a rabbit hole I choose to not jump in lol Awesome video though! I enjoyed the change of pace.

[@gamingborger]

i'm always late to the good talks. 100% agree. at least in the states, it is the responsibility of the individual, not the government or anyone else to make your own personal choices. if you think you can responsibly contribute to what you want to contribute to, go for it and good luck.

[@IrieRogue]

👏👏👏 thoroughly enjoyed the video sir, didn't know you were a history major. Completely agree with your thoughts, it is a personal choice to produce or not produce the spider gene; the choice not to is made by those who develop the moral and ethical standards against it. Government intervention is a slippery, dangerous slope. Also, it's great to have someone share their personal experiences with some of these controversial genes.

[@briemorrison6610]

I love how gently you put it that spiders aren't great. I was attracted to the spider ball pythons as well but after doing research I decided that was not for me, We got a banana instead :)

[@Spawn303]

You are completely 💯 percent right! Every point. Then what’s next? All out bam on pit bulls, fish, color of your house? How many kids you can have? Take all our guns away? People don’t understand, it starts with one little thing and then snowballs.... you’re the best Dāv.

[@mavel2038]

Some countries already have bans on certain breeds like the APBT, nothing new. There are major fish bans, nothing new. It's called HOAs. They have approved house colors. They can also demand you keep your grass at a specific length. Nothing new. That's already been done due to overpopulation in some areas. Why not have a limit, people don't need to have a dozen biological kids. If they want that many, promote adoption. Many countries have strict gun laws. Some prevent citizens from owning them, they also have some of the lowest crime rates.

[@ShadowKate13]

I have a Cinnamon YB HGW who has a wobble due to her HGW and I will never have another wobble gene unless it is a rescue searching for an experienced home. Morgana lives in a beautiful PVC enclosure by AP in my room and watching her on a daily basis, I can testify that usually the neuro issues are triggered by specific conditions. Morgana corkscrews when I play music in my room because of the vibration, I’ve noted. She also calms down when I pick her up when she starts to corkscrew, which isn’t typical. Every snake with a wobble does have unique struggles with their neurological disorder and it is up to their keeper to support the snake and give them the conditions they need to have the most normal life. I will say though, it is hard to watch Morgana struggle to find her food, hold herself steady, and I do stay up with her all night on nights where she has bad episodes. There have been nights where I’m up with her til 4am because she’s corkscrewing so bad and whipping her head back and forth that it scares me she may hurt herself. Me placing my hand on her and holding her entire body against mine seems to help her calm herself, she stops thrashing and her tongue slows down- but it’s hard watch. My “pets” are more like my kids and I very much adore them to bits and pieces. To see one of my babes struggle with a problem that can’t be fixed and that she needs to rely on me more than my others breaks my heart. Do I believe in banning though? No. Banning is dangerous territory. I think the community does need to stop overbreeding royals though, especially wobble genes. Obviously I have no control over breeders, but with my experience having a neuro babe, I would really wish they would stop breeding them or at least be honest with the rest of the community on what they may be getting themselves into with how severe it could be. Pinstripe is such a great alternative to Spider and in my opinion, it’s prettier even. I wish people would work more with the genes that don’t have issues if they choose to breed an already overbred species like Royal Pythons.

[@orangeriderz]

You absolutely hit the nail on the head Dave i want a Jungle Jag carpet sooo bad they look amazing but i do not agree with the breeding of animals with disorders so i have never owned one. I also don't shame people who do breed or own them it is a personal choice. Agree with you 100%

[@benbruckner7669]

Good video. You don’t need the government to step in, reptile shows just need to make it uneconomical to breed them. If there’s really nothing wrong with them then those who breed because they like the gene so much should continue to do so even if they can’t get the high price tag. Since ihs banned the sale in a single reptile show in the uk, the market has had a closer look and buyers are thinking twice. The value of a snake with spider in the uk is lower now than one without it. This will lead to less being produced without the government stepping in. The ihs is not a governing body in the uk, it’s a private organisation that helps promote the single show in Doncaster (among other things). This is self regulation and is what an ethical reptile hobby should do.

[@fasfer8280]

You are the ONLY breeder on KZbin that I believe has this opinion, or at least has stated: Nerd, Brian, Clint’s Reptiles, etc...you are the first to be vocal about your disliking of the Spider, so thank you I for that! (Not including Snake Discovery, GoHerping etc.)

[@amyb5339]

Found you from Emily's channel and have been binge watching your vlogs. Loved the amendments reference. Love your stance. Freedom isn't free, and many need to remember this.

[@davkaufmansreptileadventures]

Thanks Amy!

[@amyb5339]

I also love pieds, but have never owned a reptile. You may talk me into a pied ball python. Doing my homework right now with Clint, Emily, and Kevin's channels. So many choices I never knew about. Geckos also hold interest, but they are all fascinating. Had fun snorkeling after a small sea turtle in Jamaica. I related to your New Caledonian adventures in a much smaller way. SO amazing! I was able to see sea turtles laying eggs on Folly beach NC a few years ago.

[@davkaufmansreptileadventures]

@@amyb5339 when you’re ready for a pied, just let me know. :)

[@tailwhip3774]

I think personal preference is certainly the way to go or not go about breeding/selling/keeping not just only spider, but any morph of any reptile. I think you’re opinion about taking anything to the government is your opinion and my opinion is very similar to yours. I really hope research can be done so we all could understand this whole thing and make it a thing of the past. Either way I love the spider gene. I only have one snake that has spider and that’s my killer bee. He’s awesome and does very well. I don’t know for sure if stress or pain occurs throughout their lives because of the neurological issue but if you ask me I’d say I really doubt it. I just think for whatever reason they’re the handicapped ball python. I don’t particularly care when people explain that the wobble is cute but I do care whether the animal can lead a happy, healthy normal life even though it maybe disabled. I also think that poor husbandry, temps, humidity, enclosure size, etc.. do and will play a roll/assists in how this morphs neuro inclines or declines. Not sure but I’d guess it would. Not for sure but I’d guess that. Thanks for the video.

[@BrklynBlackbelt]

You are 100% correct sir! Cool stuff ! I have a couple of ball pythons I rescued. Gave them bioactive tanks. Keep up the great work ! You are an inspiration sir !

[@Montypythonserpents]

I recently bought a beautiful banana spider. I didn't know about the wobble until after but luckily she is perfectly fine. I can see the some wobble but if I didn't know about it I don't think I would question it.

[@ashleydobbs9877]

Thank you for your viideo. It really gave me some things to think about. I have 5 ball pythons now. When getting my first one I knew nothing about the spider ball python issues. I was completley blown away at learning about it. I have had snakes on and on of different kinds since I was a kid. It took me a long time to apprecate the ball python. I always saw them at pet stores they all just looked the same to me. I had no idea about all the different morfs. Afer my first one I'm hooked. After alot of research I have chosen to not buy into spider or anything in the spider complex. Also other morfs that have known issues. I have always loved animals. I have a enchi piebald that came from a champaine parent. She has a mild to moderate had wabble. My heart brakes for her when I see her struggle to eat. I am planning to breed when my snakes are ready. I will not be breeding her. She is pet only. I am keeping her and she has a wanderful forever hom here with me. She is well behaved and healthy otherwise. But I just cant put her through the stress of breeding when she stuggles to even eat. This too is a personal choice I have made. The pinstripe looks simular. I will work with this instead.I am going to be more careful with my picks in the future of what I will be bringing into my collection. I want to breed healthy beautiful thriving snakes.with no issues. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[@dreadnaught6147]

Ok so I just commented prematurely before I got towards the end... so I gotta comment again xD.... When you got to the part where you spoke on your degree.... ah man... bravo.... Bravo! When I get paid again I'm going to check to see if you have a patreon. You are definitely my new favorite!

[@drawnwithlead]

I was already a fan, but damn man, I'm a fan for life now. lol Love the history portion of your talk, very well said. Thanks for doing what you do and keep it up.

[@Snakes_N_Crafts]

Thanks for making this video, Dav. Your opinions on spiders are as valid as any I have ever heard and I could not possibly agree more that civil liberty comes above banning a snake. Personal accountability is everything. I have become a lifelong subscriber.

[@davkaufmansreptileadventures]

Thanks! Glad to hear that!

[@geckomaster25x]

I agree with everything you said and you have articulated the issues significantly better than most others have. That being said I have two different points. Going to the government is a HORRIBLE idea. We do as a community need to self regulate better. With the traction issues like this have been getting we need to act in everyone's long term best interest and address these issues. I'm the reptile guy to most people who know me and it's actually crazy how many people come up to me, that frankly have no interest in or knowledge of reptiles, to ask what the deal is with "spider pythons". They watch one or two KZbin videos and formulate very strong opinions without concern for the bigger picture, like most people on the internet. The European community took the only action I can really see as plausible which was to prohibit the sale at shows and expos. That I think is a great idea for the community. You are absolutely right, no one can or should tell you that you can't keep, breed, or sell them on your own. That being said, removing animals with very obvious issues from the public eye is probably for the best in long term interest of the community. Another option to banning/prohibiting sales is simply to educate people about the issues with animals like these. Requiring people to do so at shows would give people the information to decide before committing to an animal that would take more/different care than a typical specimen. It's the same thing as selling any other kind of animal with issues, people need to know before they purchase what is going on. This would likely end the same as prohibiting sales since most people do not want to buy animals with issues. Anyone simply saying "people should know already" need to consider that people place a lot of trust in not only the business selling the animals but the person or group running the show/expo. When people feel blindsided by things like this they lose trust in our community and either leave or worse become a friend of government involvement. Just as a reference, I've been in the reptile hobby since I was 12 or so in 2002. I kept a lot of ball pythons way back including spiders. No one warned me before my purchase about the issues and I was sad to see that after researching I decided to not breed the expensive snake I just bought. Even stranger is that after moving on from ball pythons and recently deciding to get a small group again I was looking into different morphs and decided to work with mainly axanthics. I can't tell you how many times I almost bought champagnes in the last 6 months and if it weren't for this video I would have had literally no idea they had issues. I knew about all the others but to think that after over 10 years I might make a similar mistake is crazy. We don't need the government. People don't need to have their private lives disturbed. But we absolutely need to be conscious of our community's appearance to the outside world. I would rather people have to sell animals like this privately or with full disclosure than to not be able to keep anything at all.

[@surfpanther]

Well after finishing this video I have to say, I couldn't agree more. My bamboo has like 25% spider in it and I will not be pairing it with a spider male. Great points and very well put

[@simentheanimal7039]

I feel like there is a big difference between Europeans and Americans. As you say, nobody can tell you what to do in USA. In Europe we are more open for it. In my opinion, you should never breed sick animals, especially when the illness may be carried to the offspring. You should always aim for the healthiest animals, even if these not are the prettiest. This of course applies for all captive bred animals.

[@calamitynatalie8590]

Simen the Animal Even then though it’s not the government making the ruling on spiders. It was the IHS, you can still breed, sell and buy spiders, just not at expos

[@sarahleeann7208]

Pretty much agree with everything you said. I think a very important about freedom and using freedom wisely is having access to knowledge-correct and unbiased knowledge. The issues and differences in care that come with these snakes should be made clear when they are bred, and like you said, the same information about other morphs with problems should be just as well-known. Making that information well known may even lessen the demand for them, too.

[@davidmuszynski4504]

Absolutely the best video you’ve done to date. Glad you’re a grounded individual with the proper outlook where our government is concerned. My son and I both bought spider morphs at the Daytona show last year. We went in knowing the possible issues, we don’t breed, these are just pets. We’ve had people confront us angrily about owning them and I just don’t get it. As you said, they don’t seem to be distressed and we hope we’d do the right thing if it appeared they took a turn and were unable to live a fulfilled life. The breeder we bought from seemed pretty straight forward and honest.

[@kittwood5336]

I totally agree Dave. What a horrible precedent that set. Next would be a bill to ban every ani.am with a genetic defect in its line. And who would foot the bill to enforce all this. You said it all very well. Thanks for throwing in your 2 cents!

[@SmallTownXotics]

Thanks for your input Dāv

[@mr.crizzles8366]

Dav for president 2020!

[@SupremeGecko]

Dav, I am glad you did this video. You have a great reputation in the hobby and, for a non-snake keeper like myself, I want to learn more and completely trust your unbiased opinion. Thanks!

[@thebelovedtree]

I agree that I don't want the government involved in specific morphs, but I think individual organizations banning the sale of problem morphs or species at their events is completely appropriate, necessary and important. I think it's especially important for events open to the public and species often being sold as beginner reptiles to people who aren't familiar with the morphs and the additional care certain morphs might require. If we want to the right to continue to regulate ourselves as a hobby it's important that we actually do it. It's hard for me to blame people who literally and figuratively pay to clean up the messes of irresponsible breeders, dealers, and keepers for wanting tighter laws when we don't seem interested in bettering ourselves as a whole community.

[@Matt-Watkins]

Hey Dāv, thanks for sharing your stance I this topic. I agree with you 100% about this. We need to all make the decision for our selves, and no one else, (especially the US government) should be able to make that decision for us. We are well cable of policing ourselves as a community and that is the direction we should all be heading. Also I like that you take a very hard stance on US Constitution in its entirety, fully recognizing not that it is not intended to put limits on people, but limits on government. Furthermore, the slippery slope argument is in fact what would be coming if the US government stepped into this matter and before too long, all our reptile keeping rights would be all gone. I like that you put out your honest opinion if though you problem knew you might loose a few subscribers because of it. Thanks for sharing, dude. Rattle on 🇺🇸👍

[@bethanygunnels9036]

I appreciate you making a video on this topic. It is certainly a point of contention in the hobby at this point in time. I further appreciate the last portion of your video where you mention limited government (not wanting government to control everything).. It is so important that people know the possible ramifications of this sort of thinking.