My Umineko Experience

[@HalgoniaKen]

Quick little addendum I'll keep pinned here for now: I was today years old (March 19th, 2024) when I found out that the Switch version of Umineko; which contains multiple original arcs, has an english fan translation. So this video doesn't cover that material. If it adds anything critical to the story please let me know without spoiling anything and I'll... weigh my options from there.

[@Xternzz]

OOOOH I DIDNT KNOW

[@minmodulation]

The "Saku" story "Last note of the Golden Witch" is probably the most important new content, it's a short mini-episode (just 2~ hours) with some canon important material.

[@abfloorr]

Spoilers: he will cried

[@aidank8996]

Regarding Dlanor stabbing Battler over using red truth, I would say that isn't quite bullshit. The Knox Commandments are an actual thing in msytery writing. But in this case the argument is that Battler didn't actually know that red truth, it was just a freebie given to him. Dlanor is basically saying "Stop cheating". When the Golden Truth comes around Battle knows the actual truth for certain hence why that one works. Its a bit wishy washy but we'll the mind battles are kind of overally dramatic. Your feeling over the VN is kinda why the manga goes into more detail as Ryukishi has declared it his official answer. You ain't the only one who was annoyed over Uminekos ending as it is a high point of criticism for a lot of people. Many saw it as Ryukishi not having an answer and using ambiguity as a get out of jail card. So I am glad the manga exists to disprove that and provide an alternative more satisfying experience for those that want it. This all once again makes me sad that Umineko Gold never happened as along with the voice acting they said they were adding stuff to the story which could have been some manga additions. But balls, I guess it all fell through when they realised just how big a ask it was to dub 160 hours of VN.

[@HalgoniaKen]

Fair assessment! Like I said, I understand the *intent* for the knox rules in this story. I just still think it's dumb to have a defining mechanic of your story be "Red truth requires zero questioning it is objective fact" kill that rule, and then course correct with the same mechanic. It's a personal preference ultimately.

[@ganema9]

@@HalgoniaKen To be fair, as the red text's own rules were explained by Beatrice originally, she implied that "she" was able to use it as she made the rules herself. The only time Battler was able to use the red truth before Episode 5 was in Episode 4 when Beatrice actively allowed him to use it. So, in a sense, Dlanor stabbing him for using the red truth willy and nilly without being a witch, is kinda expected, or, at least, was for me. My reasoning for why Battler knew the red truth in Episode 5 at all, was because his piece was made an accomplice, as it was Battler who made the call to Natsuhi. My interpretation of the sudden involvement of Knox is that it seems Beatrice gave up on Battler solving the game, so Bern and Lambda picked it up to help Beatrice's will. Most of Beatrice's red truths troughout Episodes 2-3 are there to specify a lot of things not being possible; something Bern later mentions as all being a waste of time - because of Knox' rules. If you look back at a lot of the red truths of Episodes 2-3, you'll notice that Battler are making arguments that would be immediately turned down by Knox, and, as Beatrice follows Knox' rules herself, she used the red truths, part, in order to follow them; there are no hidden doors; no culprit commited suicide; no culprit died in an accident; no one died in an accident, etc. With Episode 5, Bern and Lambda simply turned up the difficulty and made those rules a lot more apparent by introducing Knox herself; to make Battler finally understand why all those arguments made by him in previous episodes were always, as he himself would put it, useless.

[@emvee_]

I'll add some context and try to explain just why Umineko and some writing decisions are the way they are: When They Cry is a series with a framework of a rather special relationship between reader and writer, that is the author Ryukishi07. All the way since, Higurashi's arcs had been released one by one. Ryukishi always tells the reader before a chapter about a "difficulty", it's like an overarching battle between the reader and the author. Ryukishi was also reading reactions after every released arc online and wrote the following chapters accordingly - this would become even more prevalent in Umineko. Sometimes he pleased the crowd and gave them what they wanted but usually with a "Monkey's Paw"-like result. One example for this is how Umineko itself is partly written as a response to the crowds reactions to Higurashi. A lot of people complained that Higurashi wouldn't follow the standard rules of classic mystery novels. Usually, in a classic mystery you don't expect the solution to be supernatural or a secret exit with zero hints given towards it's existence or that the detective would be unreliable. It's just standard fare. It's the necessary framework to make a good classic mystery allowing the reader not to doubt useless stuff and to trust the author with it. Higurashi breaks those rules and people were angry about this. How are they supposed to solve the mystery that way? => Enter Umineko! The readers get what they wanted: 1. The Knox rules - an explicit agreement between author and reader to follow the standard classic mystery ruleset 2. The red truth - a concession of the author to state absolute statements about their world that the reader can also assume to be true But it's a double edged sword since these rules don't just help the reader, it can also limit them (or crush them like Battler in the story). This is why these rules and other things are included in the story. A whole lot of the the plot points visualize or parallel a meta narrative. The VN is vague because Ryukishi challenges you to understand from the subtle hints given to you. Of course if you spell it out like in the manga, it makes for a more theatrical dramatic story that might be more enjoying to read for some. Also, consider this: It is believed that the sheer number of deaths in the world wars started the surge of mystery novels in the early 1900's. The perpetrators used fancy methods, special locked rooms tricks, and narratives around their crimes (like the one Sayo uses). This is, in a way, to not make the deaths as cruel as they are, to embroider them, to make them fantastical or to give them meaning. To give the murderer's actions meaning when in reality there often is no such deep profound reason to kill people. Umineko pulls all this back and shows just how cruel the real thing is, how ungrateful of a job it must be as a detective to tear apart layers upon layers only to find cruelty at the midst of it. It tries to say: "Hey, maybe we don't have to do that". In that way, it's a love letter to classic mysteries and why they became a thing while at the same time proposing those ideas as ways to handle your own life.

[@emvee_]

​@@HalgoniaKen Don't get me wrong, I was not trying to correct or critique your video, sorry if my comment reads like that... You don't have to agree or feel like all of this has to matters to you, I just though especially because you have read it in the 2020's it could be interesting to know some of this context/history and why people like me enjoy this stuff! The manga is also very great. I love both. I don't know what exactly Ryukishi thought or if he explicitly went back. It's just a nice different approach with great art and additions that especially in EP8 are better than the VN! Of course you can view a work/product in a vacuum but in this case it's important since this is literally a big part of what Umineko is about. It's not about a parasocial connection with Ryukishi, it's about how what Beatrice and Battler do is essentially the same as being author and reader. And Umineko explores this relationship using it's characters. It's all littered with meta narratives. And I totally get that some people just don't care about meta narratives, themes, messages to apply in real life, symbolism etc. But exactly this is the stuff that makes Umineko for the people who love it! not just the literal events shown in the plot

[@Dadan-dan]

I think that it should be added that there is also that Umineko didn't come out all together in a bundle like it does now, it took *years* coming out arc by arc until we got the final arc (and that arc 1 is more of a very long prologue than anything else), so there was plenty of time for readers to 'digest' the story in between releases, to theorize, to discuss with each other, to really think what was going on, for Ryukishi07 to give his own answers and clues along the way, to *create entire characters* to both help and hinder the readers, and then remind people that the mistery isn't all that matter, but also the (admitedly very shitty) people behind it as well. I think that's why us fans love the "It can't be seen without love" line so freaking much, just like the why I love that scene of Battler talking about his relationship with Beatrice as one of mutual belief. In other words, reading it all at once kinda takes away from the experience, just like most stories with weekly/monthly/yearly releases 😅

[@miliguinothe2nd]

That's the hottest take I've seen in umineko but hey,I respect it

[@ganema9]

I like how well you expressed your thoughts and evaluations of the VN and the Manga. I haven't read the Manga throughout, but I did read the big changes and additions, as well as the last couple pages of each of the Episodes to check some of the changes and interpretations that particular medium added. I fully understand why some people would prefer the Manga, as it creates a definitive answer to everything, and that it's being able to portray a lot of things as it is a more visual medium than a sound novel would be able to be (as a sound novel is more a book than a Manga is). With that said, I'm part of the people that prefer the less definitive; I respect Ryukishi's original choice of leaving the mystery "unsolved" as the point of the ending of the VN was for his readers to think. I love to theorise and think and come up with ideas of things and I highly respect "the death of the author", and a part of me feels like the Manga kind of violates "death of the author". I really appreciate the confession of the witch as well as the ending of Episode 8 from the Manga perspective, but as the Manga creates this illusion of a definitive answer for a complete other medium, it feels like it creates an answer that was never really intended to be "real"; when you read the Manga you can gather one truth and one reality, but as you read the VN, you are able to gather a complete other truth, simply by your own interpretations of what is written there. I, personally, like/prefer the answers I've come up with in regards to the various culprits, and the meta narrative the openness of the VN provides, to the definitive answer the Manga forces me to agree to being the truth, even as it goes against the VN's own information (rules of reader's own interpretations of literature from what is actually written and implied - aka "death of the author"). With all that said, I still enjoy the Manga's takes on the answers, at least the parts I've read, even though I don't personally agree with the definitive nature of it. And I do understand the interest a lot of people have to a definitive truth in fiction. Usually, I would prefer a definitive truth as well, but Umineko is written in a way, both in regards to plot and meta plot structures, that I highly respect its open interpretations, especially because the point of the overarching plot for Ange is that the truth means nothing.

[@CiberGF]

Amazing video, your thoughts are very well structured. I do not share your sentiments and view of the story, but you've made them clear and logical through your eyes. Kinda surprised you have such a small channel. I personally love how Umineko tackles the relationship between readers and authors. Seeing exactly where it didn't work for you (at least in the same way it did for me) is almost as interesting as the story itself imo. I am curious in knowing your thoughts on the extra Gold Truths that appear in EP8 on the manga adaptation. I think it helps giving context to what it actually represents, but did it do anything for you? Or do you take it simply as a "hype tool" with no real meaning?

[@yurironoue5888]

Bring the Fate is without a doubt one of the best songs in the entire soundtrack, if not the best!

[@DuckGoesQuack]

God, I want them to re-release the manga in english. I would buy it in a heartbeat.

[@HalgoniaKen]

I have neither the money or shelf space to fit a new physical print of Umineko But I too would prefer it over buying it digitally again

[@TheGoldenAlchemist86]

I need it so bad I’m missing one volume to complete my collection.😭😭😭😭😭

[@Boom2ickle]

Would have appreciated a warning that this has spoilers for BOTH Higurashi and Umineko

[@goobermagoob9160]

Interesting thoughts, I disagree with most of them but was still a good watch/listen. Not gonna point out every bit of disagreement but I have to say at 15:02 those scenes are NOT from Maria’s point of view. EP 1 and 2 were written by Sayo and the rest by Hachijo Tohya. I think there is a subset of readers that are only satisfied if answers are clearly and plainly laid down. Readers like that I think tend to dislike the VN but very much enjoy the manga. I think both are great but prefer prefer the VN.

[@robf1557]

My brother is currently tackling the manga as per my recommendation (My No.1 manga as of right now) and so to prepare for lengthy talks about everything that happens in this wonderful story I've been re-reading the manga and watching as much content on it as possible. And I gotta say this video is special, its such a heartfelt re-telling of a rollercoaster of experiences and you sum up my love for this thing wonderfully. Safe to say I'll be checking out your remaining videos, what a joy to discover you today

[@veleon_]

Oddly enough I agree with you that the manga is better. I do think the VN is better than you made it out be, but that is just a personal thing. I think that the VN cares a lot more about the themes of how people interact with fiction. They put a lot of time and interest into the idea of keeping the "box" closed so that everyone could reasonably keep their own theories. I think this largely works, but it does fly in the face of the first have which puts a lot of emphasis on the mystery, and trying to figure out what happened. So, I completely understand if people feel a little betrayed by second half. I view the manga as Ryukishi opening the "box" and letting everyone see what was really inside. For me personally, I really liked the mystery aspect, so I prefer the manga. But I think the VN has its own merits, and does what it is trying to do well enough.

[@WinspearUltima]

This does look like a very interesting product here, I might either check out the manga for this series and then maybe read the visual novel myself it’s great to see you make videos again.

[@natsuno420]

I’m glad you ended up enjoying the story

[@nooneamv4338]

Amazing video with alot of points and thoughts I could relate to, and you did a fantastic job in explaining yourself and your feelings. I had a great time watching it.

[@yeibi300]

I think the visual novel has a...peculiar beauty if we think hard about it. Its true, that in many parts it kinda bored me with the way the characters kept talking about the scenery or about meaningless things...but, I think the visual novel wants us to solve and NOT solve the Ushiromiya incident at the same time I reached that conclusion through episodes 7 and 8 of the visual novel. Meanwhile, the manga teaches us about the mystery, the real solutions and the afterward of everything (which I enjoyed so much and I am also glad the manga explain this to satisfy my curiosity) The visual novel, tells us the answers in an ambiguous way. In the scene of Will and Claire "fighting"... they are not excatly doing that, it just a way to finish her funeral once and for all by Will telling her the solutions of her crimes and make her die away in peace. t might seem like a jumble of words but Will is actually telling us what happened...even if its extremelly confusing. For example, game 1, Kanons death, he says "An Illusory witchs stake...pirces only illusions", If we have the pieces toguether it makes sense, "Kanon" as an indivual doesnt exist, he is an illusion so of course it was an act. And I think they do it that way, because I dont think this mystery wants to be solved...at least not in the conventional way. The visual novel wants us to say "It really matters who killed the Ushiromiya family?" after reading episode 8. Ange reaches the truth, but its shown that...thats not really what she wanted in the first place. She has to protect the many posibilitys that resides inside the catbox, and thats what is shown in the fight of the Ushiromiyas vs Erika. Thats why that scene between Rosa and Maria exists, even though, we know that Rosa was an horrible mother, inside the catbox, she can be a lovable and amazing mother for Maria...or the death of Kinzo, he is shown alive...but we all know he is dead before the family reunion in 1986, but inside the catbox, he can be alive, be a good grandfather and celebrate halloween parties for his grandkids...or a world, in which, Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice can coexist and live with the people they love... This is what Ange as the Witch of the future has to protect, that we, the hungry goats, dont destroy this catbox, this board full of possibilities, they dont want us to solve the incident, so all this possibilities stay as they are. But of course, Im not gonna lie, I love the manga too. Im not a person that can get the mysterys at first glance and the manga helped me go through it and understand, for example, Sayos motive, and many mysterys that the visual novel doesnt really answer or provide. The manga shows us more backstory, and more things about Sayo, which I really enjoyed and Im really glad about...and wish the VN did too... For a better understanding, I agree that de manga is a better choice, but for another point of view...the visual novel has a really nice touch to it . Great video by the way and sorry for the long text.

[@yeibi300]

Also My take of the red and golden truth I...also got very confused about that, I also thought that they were the same but...maybe they aren't.... You see, the red truth was a rule made by Beato that can only be used inside her game board to declare truths about what happened, it is said that the only ones who can use this are people above Battler, like Beatrice and the other witches . So, of course, when Lambdadelta gives Battler, a human, the right to use one red truth, he uses it to declare Natsuhi as innocent...but it gets counter attacked...I think we can't really use the red truth as definitive evidence in all cases. In this instance, Battler...didn't know if Natsuhi really was or not the killer, he just said it with the red he was given to declare her innocent. But of course, that wasn't the REAL truth, so it got counterattacked, it wasn't until Battler reached the REAL truth by himself that he couldn't use a truth that couldn't be broken, "the golden truth" or...I think that we can also call it "the single truth" The red truths are used to manipulate the reader to make us think one way or another, that's why they are used... I think that's why the golden truth is only used once trough the story, that time was used because Battler reached the real truth by himself..and the other chapters are the ones that even though it shows "mysterys" that truth was already discovered, and the last time we see this golden truth was when battler...understood Beatrice and discovered the truth of what really happened that way...shown by a golden light through his chest(?) (I think it was from there) EDIT: I just remember, I think we see the golden truth one more time in episode 7. In the fight between Will and Claire. Will's sword is golden if I'm not wrong, and normally in Umineko we have seen that the truths can be represented as swords that slash through mysterys and theories, so Will using a golden sword meant that to put Claire to rest he used the "Golden truth"... Either way I'm not Ryukishi so I could be wrong with everything I said but I love to theorize :D

[@furinkazan9066]

@@yeibi300 I've read somewhere that the golden truth is a type of truth about something that was "agreed upon", and it seems fitting. When Will is putting Clair to rest, he talks a lot about waht the gold truth does. "The gold truth locks the lock of illusions", "Tales wolven by the gold truth return to illusions". So the gold truth may look like the truth of the gold, created by the gold because it buys people's truth. But Ange also mentions the gold truth right at the end of episode 8, when refusing to accept the bombardment of reds against the truth created by her and those who believe in it. Thus it's something agreed upon. However, when Battler uses gold, it's quite unique (literally). Maybe it was Virgilia (I don't remember) who said that he was able to use gold because "he understood the heart of Beatrice's games", so his gold truth is tied to the gameboard itself. How is it related to Kinzo being already dead? Well, his death is one of the reasons the massacre happens as Sayo becomes the family head. Battler understanding Beatrice means he knows Kinzo's death is invariable for what comes after, and was "agreed upon" by the game master herself when creating the story in the sense of the faith between autor/reader. As the death itself cannot be confirmed in the gameboard nor outside the box, however, the red about it is refused. By declaring in gold that "Kinzo is already dead at the start of all games", Battler is basically eliminating Kinzo from the story and saying his death is fundamental, and that's why he apologizes to him before doing so. Dlanor then explains that the gold is sometimes inferior and sometimes superior to the red truth, which applies to this theory and can be interpreted in many other ways.

[@yeibi300]

@@furinkazan9066 :0!! This is really interesting!!! This actually makes more sense about what the golden truth might be, thank you!

[@housedelarouxmotion]

That's because the manga was the "second read" of Umineko after reaching the truth. Regardless of whether you reached your truth with your own hands or not, the second read is always much more enjoyable!

[@T2266]

I have read both, and to be honest couldn't finish the VN on my own, I ended up watch someone's let's play video of it. I massively prefer the manga, for not having to go though mountains of descriptive sentences that at the end of the day really don't matter that much. And of course for the added materials in episode 7 and 8.

[@jacobsivden8017]

Great video! I personally only read the Umineko VN and that was years ago. I knew the manga was different, but I didn't know it was *that* different. My experience with the VN was a lot similar to yours. The Question Arcs blew me away, especially Episode 3. However, the Answer Arcs were really frustrating. A lot of stuff just felt way too bloated and a lot of stuff went over my head. I wasn't even aware of the whole Shannon/Kanon/Yasu stuff until I found explanations online. Though that may just be me being dumb... I may have to check out the manga eventually, but not sure when that day will ever come.

[@rodrigolealmartir5902]

Ngl, I disagree with pretty much all your takes regarding the VN. But you made me want to read the manga.

[@yannickluecker3983]

...Yeah, I get why he ended up in this situation though. The Visual Novel doesn't feed you the answers if you don't find them yourself, which can be frustrating to some.

[@zeyroxr4256]

I agree with some of your opinion, really great analysis like i genuinely hope that vn readers will give the manga a try, such an emotional and satisfying ride that complement the vn a lot in its own way.

[@purelysmetalnightcore]

I really enjoyed this video as it's the first one I've seen criticizing Umineko haha.

[@Sawa_i]

5:30 Lol the manga I read literally had text colored... It made the read worthwhile as B/W mangas with Red & Blue & G texts at times

[@ViewHigh-yi5qo]

EDIT EDIT: Hope I wasn't too late on the edit :( EDIT: Writing this since I see a number of people attacking the video, and I don't want to seem like I'm adding to that (even if it wasn't my intention) Instead here's my thoughts on the video :D Glad to hear that you came away from Umineko with a positive experience! I think you did a good job illustrating why some of the stuff in the story didn't quite mesh with you, but hearing you recount your thoughts on the parts you did enjoy made me jealous that I didn't pay more attention to them on my first readthrough haha Also, the whole presentation of the video is very nice! If I was familiar with any of the works you've covered on your channel, I'd definitely give those videos a watch :P

[@marchmelloow]

"Also I will die on the hill of Will's illusions to illusions scene being peak" Then we can die together, lol. I also think it's the best way for a mystery story to provide its answers. If you don't have the answers, then it still lets the story progress and conclude without spoiling the answer for you, as well as giving you some hints for it. And if you did solve it, then it's a way to check your answers. The only people who lose out are those that solely want the answer, but the intention of a mystery story should be to have readers solve its mysteries themselves, by being a good mystery story that lets the reader do so, so I think it's a sacrifice worth making to create a better experience for those than want to solve the mystery.

[@GustavoOliveira-gp6nr]

I am the opposite of you as I am really glad that umineko's ending turned out to be as vague as it did. It really got me hooked and made me think about umineko for years before the manga come out because Umineko gave me a feeling of "there is a truth and it is coherent with the story" and I believed it, much like the "love" relationship of author and reader that the story mentions. It was so fun that every 2 or 3 months I remembered some think of the story and linked with other hint and figured out something, and after a few more months i figured out more and I did that for years. Then at some point i found some blog of umineko readers discussing opinions and i had a lot of fun imagining each possibility. It was something I never experienced before and probably will never again. And years later the manga ep7 came out to give the canon answer, but at that point it did not matter so much and actually spoiled the fun of the mystery. But it only worked because i was fully convinced that the story was coherent and consistent and that there was an actual true answer tha fits all the plot holes, much like scientists believe there is an answer for science problems, it is out there hidden, we just have to find it.

[@Klemeron]

I agree that the manga is a more complete and consistent story that retroactively improves the messyness of the VN, but it also somewhat takes away from its themes. The VN is, fanboism aside, at times godawful. Cringey dialogue, inconsistencies and flaws abound, terrible pacing and unclear storytelling. You could say the same for most of Ryukishi work. But when I think about Umineko and what it has given me, I don't really care about those, nor would my experience of it be made more meaningful if the story were better told (though it would be much welcomed). It construes just about the most radical, insane piece of speculative fiction that only gets wilder the more I think about it. The objectivity of the red truth corroding their its own foundation, the complete blending of metaphor and reality, then the utter rejection of objective reality itself, the insane parellels between living characters and in-universe fictional ones that end up influencing the actions of real ones, thus actualizing their own agency (Erike and Angie in the Truth Ending, for instance). Instead of sticking to its own rules, the story finds ways to exploit them in order to create whole new, more absurd avenues, piling the ontological contradictions one atop another until you get one big semiotic mess where nothing makes sense, yet everything makes sense and all of these endless truths are, from certain standpoints, equally valid. The witches as being actual beings in the aether, but fading if they become bored as they are merely concepts. The fragments consisting of fictional worlds and personal experiences instead of objective timelines. It's a story whose logic can easily be applied to one's perspective of the world, and see the concept of reality in a more nuanced way.

[@zedsuo11]

100% agree with everything. I started Umineko because I was seeing so many people saying that it's "the beest VN ever written" and similar stuff. When I got to the answers arc I got really disappointed, especially with EP7. It was so stupid that the story, and especially with Willard trying so hard to make you understand what "real good mystery" is and then not explain anything and just be as ambiguous as possible. ALSO as Willard himself said the "whydunnit" should be the most important part especially since it's not covered in many mysteries, AND THEN the reason/motive we got from Beatrice was SO lame in my opinion. And the last part that really pissed me off was how weird and contradictory all the stuff with shannon/kannon/lion/beatrice was, especially with certain red truths in previous episodes. I haven't read the manga yet, but I'm going to read it now and hopefully get a better experience.

[@flur9430]

I've got this feeling of disappointing in the start of the fourth episode. Honestly, what a waste of time

[@zedsuo11]

@flur9430 Yea, it seems Steins;Gate will remain my #1 VN/Anime for quite a while longer

[@flur9430]

@@zedsuo11 also, you have some game recommendations to me? I'm looking after other games good as everyone says that Umineko is good

[@WorthlessWinner]

Big agree. Brave of you to criticize something so popular like this. I didn't mind a lot of the things you disliked, but I did find episode 8 incredibly preachy and that it seemed to be twisting itself in a knot to let Beto off the hook for any of their bad actions. The manga solves these issues as well as the ones you had. If only you could read the manga with VA and music, it'd be golden! The VN was also desperately in need of an editor which the manga clearly has, combining several redundant scenes into one.

[@LAMBDADELTO]

this was a great video, I love Umineko so much you can also try the ps3 port

[@mrcoolguy32]

This was a really solid video especially from a channel this small. I love how honest you are with your takes even if I disagree with most of them. Like Erika is one of my favorite characters from the story because of how absolute demonic she is (which made it very entertaining to me) but I completely understand why you ain't enjoy her. And I definitely agree her tormenting Natsuhi was dragged out to freaking hell and back. Also I'm definitely giving the manga a full read someday.

[@owchh]

disagree with a lot but this video was incredibly well made. I'm glad the manga was able to help you enjoy the series, and I agree that I prefer the manga more. keeping the box closed in the VN isn't my cup of tea, but I feel it contrasts and builds upon the themes for the manga well. but at the end of the day, the payoff of actually seeing all these scenes (like e8ch37) feels so great and emotional.

[@momochi5325]

I was excited to watch a video with a more critical lens on Umineko since everyone only sings its praises. However, gotta say I disagree with almost everything you presented, save for the part about the manga showing the answers being better and the culprit’s background being shown. A little disappointed but I’ll take any Umineko content I can get 😭

[@Passions5555]

What did you disagree with?

[@TallTapper]

the umi when neko cars

[@cadr003]

I disagree with a lot, but what you got out of the story at the end is what matters.

[@JetblackJay]

Tsukihime manga experience when?

[@randyho8128]

I too disagree with your take. You have a "trick" centric view of the story. Which is why I think manga appeals to you as it has a concrete turn of events.

[@mintitotallyagreewithyou2391]

You didn't have enough love for the VN. To me, it was clear that Shannon was Yasu's imaginary friend from the beginning, but in general the VN needs you to take many mental leaps when interpreting the story.

[@Swix_FGC]

You completely missed Ryukishi's point in episode 8. Those answers were not needed. Erika and Maria's fight explicitly states this and is even called back to with young Ange, Battler and Beato's scene in the beginning and end of episode 8. Hell you see the same thing as early as episode 2 from Rosa's POV in the scene in the garden AND multiple other times. Ange was so obsessed with what "truth" was it completely broke her and poisoned her perception of her family. Every person in the Ushiromiya family are deeply broken people that have done terrible things but they are not only just that one aspect. I think the biggest example of this was Eva. She can be an absolute giant bitch to someone like Natsuhi and on the other hand be a deeply loving and caring mother/aunt/wife to the others. Not one single "truth" out weighs the other and both are valid. Erika's obsession with "truth" and being right was Ryukishi doing his best to show you that. To a child that sleight of hand trick could be the most magical and mystical thing in the world to them. From their perspective its real. Overall objectively manga 8 is better than vn 8, but its not needed to get across the ACTUAL message that Ryukishi is trying to tell you and objectively goes against Umineko's entire philosophy. The VN completely stands on its own feet in regards to storytelling and meta narrative. Umineko as a whole is a commentary on storytelling as a medium, the ENTIRE mystery genere, and the concept of what "truth" is and if it even fucking matters in the first place while also telling a deeply emotional story about unconditional love and familial bonds.

[@lili__26380]

Stopped watching when u said u preferred straining ur eyes to look at the bottom quarter of ur screen while reading the longest vn ever, crazy take

[@HalgoniaKen]

I like not having a whole wall of text covering all the pretty art, leave me alone hahaha XD

[@lili__26380]

@@HalgoniaKen the art IS pretty and that’s why there’s a toggle to get rid of the text shawty

[@lili__26380]

@@HalgoniaKen I locked back in when u said episode 3 was the best

[@localsassboi]

very refreshing seeing this perspective every once in a while. amazing vid. funnily enough, i started with the manga and i didnt connect to the story at all on my first readthrough i only got something out of it while reminiscing about its ideas. how was it revisiting the story even though you knew the whodunnit beforehand? i wanted to read the vn for a different experience (voiceacting and the osts) but im hesitant since i know the "answers" already. i think that first experience cant be captured so im curious about your take as you read it twice now.

[@JohnSmith_.]

I'd definetely recommend reading the VN. Once yoy know the answers, it's like you're reading a completely different story. I've read it fully 3+ times and I'm _still_ finding new things in it.

[@vf1941]

wow we really disagree on this thing that we both love... maybe I lack love to understand your slander to the umineko vn

[@santiagoaristizabal7591]

Great video

[@Zab238]

Do you like episode 3 more than 8?

[@HalgoniaKen]

In the visual novel yes In the manga no

[@huealter3366]

In focusing too much about the plot, you have left out the magic of the story thus missing the whole point of Umineko's answer arc

[@ducks3023]

I mean its a valid complaint. At least when you view it from his perspective. He just wanted something different form Umineko than what he got, no issue.

[@arcadiarose1567]

It feels like you're way too attached to Beatrice and didn't really appreciate the critical roles that Ange and Bernkastel play. Bern is to Ange as Beato is to Battler, but the former are figments of the past while the latter are concerns of the future. There's so much depth to these characters than just their romance, too. Beatrice held this secret that she desperately wanted to share but only on her terms while the world after the events that took place there scrambles to dissect her story. It's a story about stories.

[@Lunarrbase]

man what a video. 3/10

[@buukaczi]

Did you used to obsses Jim Carrey

[@ana-mariaungureanu4660]

Why are you using hte ugly sprites

[@flur9430]

I'm dropping the game in the start of the 4 episode, the story is just very meh in the overall. The characters are so annoying; the plot is not that interesting and instigating; the themes are so predictable; the mysteries don't matter at all; the dynamics structure is sheer bullshit; the story doesn't aggregate anything if you have a good reasoning about general matters; and the reveals are so disappointing. Being short, it's just not a fun experience. It's just a bunch of people arguing about irrelevant things. And in comparison to the people doubting the appeal of this game in the very first episode, I got very far by reaching the fourth. First, I was thinking that I was dumb, but I saw some people like me who read the entire thing and still disliked it, so I've made up my mind. Anyway, maybe the manga will be a much better experience, as you say, but for now I prefer to look after more exciting pieces of story.

[@BryanAndersonRuizCardenas]

👍

[@TheZalor]

From all your takes I can tell you missed the entire point of the VN

[@jonathan84935]

Lol, of course someone would say that, what's next? Calling him a "goat"?

[@aqualucasYT]

Can't wait for the fanboys to crawl in here calling you a goat or "without love it cannot be seen" cause you disliked ep8

[@TheZalor]

He literally is and missed the entire point

[@LeafSouls]

​@@TheZalori disliked the post modern aspects of it

[@PrincessNine]

Now watch the anime

[@HalgoniaKen]

I watched one scene for validation. Was unsurprisingly disappointed.

[@jasmine____23]

this is the first time i've ever heard anyone seriously criticize umineko lol. i read the vn last year, and while it was very good, a lot of parts were soooooooo boring and just dragged on. i might have to give the manga a try, since it's obviously much shorter. i think higurashi is better though

[@LeafSouls]

In your opinion, what do you think would have made umineko better than higurashi? Better pacing? Better story? Better romance or mystery?

[@jasmine____23]

@@LeafSouls i think the story of higurashi was more comprehensible, and i liked the characters better

[@LeafSouls]

@@jasmine____23 umineko characters are terrible people so yeah I also sympathize with the first point, many times umineko flew over my head lol

[@jasmine____23]

@@LeafSouls yeah it was weird cause the actual story made sense to me, like the events on rokkenjima, and the present day stuff with ange, but all the magic/meta parts felt really useless by the end maybe im just too dumb to get it though, idk

[@LeafSouls]

@@jasmine____23 i don't know wdym by useless, do you mean undermined? all the magic at the end is just a physical representation of ange struggle, thats basically it though they were stretched beyond need