Mystery Solving when 📕 Manual Does NOT Help

If You think that Left is Correct - Let me Entertain you.
Black Diamond GridLock super popular Belay Carabiner paired with Petzl GriGri raises a lot of questions and arguments amongst Climbers.
If you read the manual you will get even more confused.
So I did another Colab with mister Break Everything @HowNOT2 so you can Climb Safer!
If you are getting value out of my videos and wanna feel good - consider supporting me: hardiseasy.com
Because that makes a big difference and is the main reason that allows me do this project!
Deep Thanks!
Ben

[@HowNOT2]

Great edit! Good thing you were wearing your helmet standing on that janky table :). Smash his like button, he spent a lot of work on this and it turned out amazing.

[@HardIsEasy]

You liked my drop tower? :DDD Niiiice :DD

[@HowNOT2]

@@HardIsEasy Was the bar already bent BEFORE you dropped tested that? :)

[@HardIsEasy]

@@HowNOT2 I think the Bar might be bent since this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mp3ZmKZ9eK2esK8 :DDDd

[@habasch51]

Hi Ben, I really (really!) appreciate your videos! I‘ve just started climbing outdoors myself and your videos gave me a lot of knowledge and confidence to do so! In combination with Ryans videos, I feel like I have gained a lot if very usefull information on how to, and even more importantly how not 2 use my climbing gear! Thank you so very much!!

[@mkase4697]

@@HardIsEasy Very well put-together video. It will make me think twice about how I use mine now. And thank you for putting my mind at ease with the welding helmet. I was concerned that sketchy table would collapse and you'd break your ankle, but with that welding helmet on, you were totally protected! (BTW, dont worry about the safety weenies - your safety is your choice and responsibility). Keep up the good work!

[@RMDragon3]

9:45 "For those who worry about my safety constantly..." and immidiately steps up onto an unstable table. That made me laugh!

[@tyrionas]

That table was really wobbly

[@chrisrutley1332]

I love that you and HowNOT2 have a collaborative relationship. Both make great informative content.

[@connorm5234]

I use the black diamond gridlock with a grigri every day, and always put the grigri in the small side. I find that this is easier to use when escaping a belay and more forgiving in any rescue scenario as I don’t have to twist the carabiner at all to remove it from my harness

[@mikewoodworks7364]

It also fits the often taught best practice of always screwing a carabiner down, so gravity and vibration isn't helping it unscrew.

[@dmott6717]

Same. I've had people tell me I'm wrong. I think it works better. I've never had a crossload incident.

[@luceinbattaglia9425]

Same bro🦾😉

[@Oscar-if6lq]

The DMM Ceros is the optimal GriGri biner IMO. It has the typical wiregate for your belay loop, but also has a “horn” at the top which stops the GriGri from rotating and cross loading. It’s the perfect biner for a GriGri (and was designed specifically for that purpose). I’ve used it for a year now and never had my GriGri move out of the correct position, so I never have to look at my belay device and can spend more time focusing on the climber.

[@fernandosanz4422]

Same here with 3 years of use

[@piman3072]

And it has the wire gate the right way so it'll just clip itself in instead of breaking 😂

[@rajanlliw]

or the Grivel Clepsydra K10GS, even better IMHO.

[@africansinclair]

Thats my go to set up as well.

[@mireiagordivila4217]

I use the DMM Rhino kiwklock - very similar design but w/o the "double loop" and with self locking gate - foolproof when used correctly

[@berkkeloglu9559]

I've been using first generation grigri and BD gridlock for months and if you play around with them just for 5 minutes you can see that it's better to put grigri on the smaller loop so that it doesn't cross load. Just common sense. Thanks for the video. Stay safe.

[@SonnyKnutson]

It's just better not to use a BD Gridlock :P It's just a bad design

[@eyescreamcake]

@@SonnyKnutson What's bad about it?

[@bullfrogboss8008]

​@@eyescreamcakefor example that you have to open the gate in order to get access to the smaller "loop". It seems like smart design, but impractical in reality

[@eyescreamcake]

@@bullfrogboss8008 Why is that bad? I use it as shown in the manual and it works fine.

[@WarningLabelFilmsLLC]

Thank you all for continuing to break stuff! I'm sure you're pushing manufacturers to improve their product, and teaching us to keep ourselves safe. Cheers!

[@esrow25]

I also broke the nose of this biner. I was repelling with a grigri but had my belayloop clipped incorrectly over the nose of the biner. The force on the nose was probably not more than 1.5 kn considering my weight. The biner works now as a support for the kids swing...

[@HardIsEasy]

Waaah thanks for sharing :D I love making these videos to see comments of real life stories :D

[@johnwilder9280]

So way way way back when the Gridlock first came out, it was right around the time when Petzl was trying to encourage people to stop using the Attache with the GriGri. For some reason, people are enamored with using giant HMS carabiners with the grigri, even though it serves no purpose and there had also just been some testing to show that a grigri could get caught up on the nose and break them. So anyway, that happened and at the time, Petzl and BD both kinda went- well, since you really shouldn't use a pear anyway, if you're going to use the gridlock, use the small end because its more like the asym D carabiner that we want you to use for the grigri. (This was the line of thought I got from both the hardware crew at BD and the sales reps at Petzl at the time since I was reviewing alot of gear at the time). I never found popping the grigri into the gridlock to be a big deal, but once I was done testing the gridlock, I stopped using it immediately and went back to the asym D carabiner for my grigri.

[@benjaminyen4039]

Agree. this happened to me for the Pear shape. Overall, i will always encourage people to just use a asym D shape for grigri. It is not expensive if you can afford climbing gears,

[@natetronn]

I use the Am’D.

[@johnwilder9280]

@@natetronn That's probably fine, but really any small asym D locker is probably the best option for belaying with the grigri.

[@etakopolis]

Probably the best collaboration of the two climbing channels I so rarely get to watch these days. Autumn will come, will binge both on rainy days.

[@davidpickar7614]

Thanks man! Great to see a collaboration, and thanks for the great information that will prevent me from encountering a potential catastrophe.

[@EricSwanson89]

That last configuration is exactly how I've been using it this whole time. The same cross-loading concern was apparent to me, so that last method prevents that problem from occurring. Great video!

[@mattinn]

Super fun to watch you. It has been long time to watch a video without fast forward or jumping in time. Thanks guys for the lab and real-lifetime tests.

[@ajmlistmail]

Really fun and cool video! Thanks for putting this together. The last test was fascinating. Watching the belay device separate and then shred the rope was bananas! I use a GridLock and now I have a few more things to consider for safety from your vid! ;)

[@minikretz1]

Just got a new carabineer and was reading the manual and got confused! You made a perfect video about exactly what I was wondering! Thanks!

[@averageaf4321]

I love these kinds of backyard experiments, and you had multiple perspectives from other parties you collaborated with! True science!

[@derekatwood6236]

I put the grigri in the small loop on the gridlock carabiner and I think it works really well that way and in my tests is impossible to cross load. With the grigri in the bigger loop on the carabiner it can definitely be cross-loaded. IMO the gridlock is the best carabiner to use with the grigri. If you put the carabiner through the plastic side of the grigri first, it puts the screwgate on the left side and out of the way while belaying.

[@igarcia369]

Thanks Ben for these videos, very interesting and educational! Amazing job!

[@m_a_ddyb]

It is always super fun and interesting watching your videos! Very useful for my job as well, working in rope access. Thank you :)) Awesome stuff!

[@wallywallwallo]

So glad you looked into this one. Been on my mind for ages.

[@rs232boy]

Very interesting results, thanks for all the testing ! Also love the HowNot2 channel ! I have both petz attache and gridlock in my stuff, but as a French guy who does both climbing and mountaineering it surprised me a lot that people would try to attach a grigri to the gridlock. Around here people mostly have their grigri with the orange petz attache, which is D shaped and very large. I came to know the gridlock while doing mountaineering. The official glacier tie up guidance in France is to use either two regular carabiners in opposite directions or one directional to avoid cross-loading. So the gridlock and friends are considered as a good way to save weight. But it seems weird to stick a giant griri on a carabiner with a narrow neck in the middle.

[@ottard]

I've always felt better about the carabiners with the wire gate for holding it in the correct orientation. Would be interesting to se them loaded incorrectly, and see if they leave sharp edges too though.

[@johnliungman1333]

Thank you for this! Always entertaining as well as educational. Keep it up! 🙏

[@Jason_DPMF]

Thank you for bringing this to our attention you and Ryan do an amazing service for the people

[@HowNOT2]

Thanks

[@peterway7867]

Thank you. Well done. I use a GridLock occasionally, although never with a GriGri. Please use that table for something other than standing on, and the welding helmet for welding only.

[@dgiroday1]

Great video! I agree with the point about pear shaped carabiners tend to rotate and cross load when used as a belay biner. I used to have this problem and this motivated me to buy a anti cross loading biner. I think the most important thing is to be consistent on which end of the carabiner is connected to the Gri Gri. The Gri Gri may scratch the biner. This may create a sharp section (bur) which you don't want to make contact with the belay loop or with the rope if you switch to a tubular belay device.

[@bigdogvomituniverse4728]

I agree with Oscar. I've been using the dmm ceros for a while now and love it. The spring stop works independently of main gate which comes in handy in certain situations. However, I have had the spring stop get forced passed the hump from a weird loaded position. Other than that, it's badarse. Thanks for videos. Climb or Die, BigDogVomit Universe

[@devonrd]

Love these videos! You truly test everything under the sun.

[@HardIsEasy]

sure... EVERYTHING :DDDD

[@devonrd]

@@HardIsEasy Haha not literally of course, but the testing you have done (in collaboration with hownot2) has greatly improved my knowledge of climbing safety :)

[@grindanb7169]

Loving these types of videos!

[@felixfelicis7884]

Ben always here to teach us! Loved the video!

[@whkoh7619]

great content, love the collaboration!

[@joshuaimhof4529]

Awesome video!!! Love the collage

[@Drinkyoghurt]

The best karabiners for belay loops I've found are the DMM Rhino/Ceros which have an edge specifically designed to prevent Grigri's from crossloading.

[@bullfrogboss8008]

Also ocun condor

[@danrichter7]

Ben, when belaying i always have the gate of the carabiner that holds the belay device positioned away from the hand that I’d doing the belaying. I do this so that if I need to free both hands I can quickly tie off the climber on the spine of the carabiner.

[@DanZeevi]

Super interesting Ben! I didn't like that BD carabiner from the start, seemed so cumbersome to use. Funny thing is, I saw my friend using it not long ago, with the GriGri in the smaller basket, and it seemed wrong to me. But now I understand why! Thanks!

[@HardIsEasy]

Yea it took me a while to wrap my head around this as well :D

[@CaseyRoff]

This is awesome Ben thanks so much.

[@DaveSearle]

Love these videos! Thanks

[@whelmking6497]

Another fantastic video. You are providing such useful and needed info to the climbing community (as is Ryan). For my part, I have used a BD Magnetron for belaying with a GriGri for many years. I purchased the dual gate version as well but never used it. At least for single pitch cragging, with the belayer below the climber, my experience is that crossloading bascially never happens even with a pear shaped biner (like the standard Magnetron) if the belayer has some experience. I can't recall a single instance over many years and catching 1000s of climbs, and in the unlikely event that it does, the crossload rating can handle it anyway. I think the dual gates are one of the those inventions we would be better off not having.. it allows belayers to get away with bad technique rather than learn the skill properly.

[@RenatoUtsch]

Have you ever seen the DMM Ceros carabiner? It basically improves on this design by adding a notch to the side of the carabiner that makes it impossible for the Grigri to crossload. I use it for climbing, it's basically foolproof, couldn't find any way to crossload the Grigri with it. Such a minor change in design that basically fixes the issue.

[@HardIsEasy]

Don't have one, but I have a ton of others that also are much better than BD gridlock

[@Oscar-if6lq]

I love my Ceros! It’s the best GriGri biner IMO

[@bigdogvomituniverse4728]

Ceros with trango vergo is a great combo. I lead solo all the time with that and it comes right along with me as I move up

[@eyescreamcake]

But the whole point of the wide HMS side of the carabiner is for the rope to go over it (whether tube device or Munter). There is no rope going over it with a GriGri, so there's no point in having the wide side connected to the GriGri, notch or not.

[@Mitzbergatc]

Ben, your channel really is one of the best things out there!

[@HardIsEasy]

That's more than I needed in this life... now I can die happy :D

[@timganahl3077]

Love the videos as always! Thanks

[@YannCamusBlissClimbing]

Thanks for posting!! Great edit 🙂

[@robertito_dobbs]

Nice collab, fellas. Two excellent channels👍🏻

[@alrong]

Great video, love this channel - I’ve been having this very debate on this issue myself! So to add to the discussion - here is another twist that has more to do with function. When using a screw gate locking carabiner with a GriGri, and belaying in the speed motion using the thumb to depress the cam of the Grigri while holding the rope) the muscle of the right thumb inadvertently rubs against the gate during use. Over the course of belaying someone I have had 2 carabiners get unlocked due to this issue. So I’ve been recommending my students using a Grigri to always put the gate facing away from the brake hand when using a Grigri.

[@HardIsEasy]

Now that's a crazy way to unlock your carab :DDD But yea normally carabiners are facing away from your main hand since it's much easier to clip it that way... Thanks for the comment !

[@the_meehow]

Awesome research, thanks!

[@andyboheler8208]

Doing great making educational videos and I have been sharing with other climbing friends!!. I've been using this carabiner for a couple years now and my 2 cents is if you're dedicated to one device either side is fine but if you like using gri gri for top rope or project and ATC for lead belay I like to keep it separated as over time the metal from gri gri makes scars on the carabiner, nothing dramatic but don't like the idea of the rope polishing burrs. Keep it simple and safe.

[@natevanderw]

This right here, the gri gri absolutely should only be used on on only one side.

[@matiasaracena354]

nice video! thank you very much!! I've been discussing this for ages!

[@DerekNheiley]

Currently using the Metolius Gatekeeper Belay Biner, which is basically a slighlty smaller version of the DMM Ceros, both of which have MUCH better anti-cross loading for a grigri. We had the maglock version, and returned it; A) because of the awkward way to clip the belay device to the small loop B) the not-so-great edges on the maglock pinch points (for your fingers)

[@Byersplace]

Great content. I often refer your vids to friends for three great info.

[@squirrels1115]

Thanks, I own this carabiner. Very insightful

[@lisa-koschat]

I use the grivel clepsydra S twin gate - it has a little nob so the Grigri can’t slip down. I guess there is always a weird situation where it could maybe fail. Super interesting your little experiment - I really did not question the black diamond one till now.

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

Last week I found and easy fix against cross-loading: Before loading Gri-Gri, first put on a dog bone from a quickdraw (tight side) on the locker, which will keep the Gri from sliding onto the long axis of the carabiner. Simple, cheap, effective! The dog bone can even be an old retired one.

[@SonnyKnutson]

Or just get a proper carabiner xD Honestly first time I saw that Black Diamond carabiner I thought it looked to weird to use. The whole slip gate into that tiny ring shaped spot didn't seem right.

[@morphsticles]

Always good content. Love it.

[@TheQuicksilver115]

Ahhhh okay you got me good with the *puts on welding helmet* *immediately gets on sketchy table* lolol

[@morganmeehan5991]

Awesome video, tons of useful information and fun to watch. Thanks!

[@HardIsEasy]

Thank you as well!

[@ledzep369]

So good. You and Ryan are my fav climbing channels.

[@HowNOT2]

Thanks!

[@ArinaThomsen]

"And for those who worry about my safety constantly..." - stands up on a wobbly shaky table.

[@gruboziarnisty]

My favourite belaying carabiner is Ocun Condor. It has independent springy gate that works in the correct direction

[@lorenzocc00]

Gidrlock is produced to be used with ATC Pilot, the shape of the upper part of the carabiner helps lock the rope during a whip. Very simple…il you put the upper part in the belay loop the rope will also lock but much harder

[@sypris1001]

Great video, thanks for the useful info. we climb with this exact combination of belay biner and grigri

[@nedt]

Excellent video. Thanks

[@julioordonezpastor.5205]

This is the comment for the algorithm! You are great, man! Thanks!

[@user-ez4iv2kp4f]

Great, as always, thanks!

[@C-SQ]

Thanks for another fantastic video!

[@jonahking2168]

great video, very informative. Thank you!

[@Zogg1281]

Maybe a follow-up email to both companies to inform them that the smaller end should always be used with gri-gri stile devices so they can get their acts together 😂

[@hartsparky]

I/my group use GriGri with gridlock. My instructor taught us to put GriGri in the small loop. It's definitely annoying to load; I've been looking at other carabiners. Going to show all my climbing friends this. Thanks!

[@Oscar-if6lq]

Have a look at the DMM Ceros. It has the typical belay biner clip for your belay loop, but also has a “horn” at the top which stops the GriGri from rotating and cross loading. It’s the perfect biner for a GriGri (and was designed specifically for that purpose). I’ve used it for a year now and never had my GriGri move out of the correct position.

[@gabrieltwinwithulm7466]

@Oscar Have a look at a D carabiner that isn’t overpriced and over engineered. Any old D shape carabiner works. You don’t need a fancy belaying pear carabiner unless you’re planning to take your grigri off to use an atc. Shown this at 2:40.

[@luceinbattaglia9425]

I notice that many years ago, as I’ve got the same. In fact I always used it back forward as you show by the end. Much more better and safer in my opinion.🔝👏

[@paulrox100]

love these videos!!

[@noe5250]

Great work !

[@CaliforniaTravelVideos]

Awesome testing and collab! While it should probably go without saying, when you make an assumption about some of the configurations being "Okay" since the belayer force is less than 2kN, one's "mileage may vary" for tree climbers potentially falling from a greater fall distance with a static rope. That said, I agree your videos should stay on track for your target audience.

[@HardIsEasy]

Yeap 2kN to the belayer. In your case of falling on a static rope this would be a diff story. And thanks btw ;)

[@jimbojet8728]

A great vid. Very informative. Thank you

[@TheMrBvcx]

Great content, as always !

[@miniveloman3642]

Great content. As always.

[@Tspadger]

As a gridlock user that is really useful. Thank you. I ended up using it as my grigri krab as the top bar had worn quite a bit using double ropes on a normal tube device, softer metal than usual maybe?

[@flealr92]

Great video Ben, thanks! I use this combo with the grigri on the small loop and are absolutely used to it, no hazzle at all. I even find it weird belaying with something else, it feels like everything moves around too much.

[@derekatwood6236]

+1 and now that im used to it, i cant stand using a normal carabiner because the grigri is all over the place. The gridlock is the best for the grigri.

[@anonymchannel5413]

Same here, at first it was quite fiddly to get the grigri in the small loop, but after a short while you get used to it and it's just "click, click, done". What's also nice, is that you can unclip the set-up grigri and pass the carabiner+attached grigri with rope to someone else without having to remove the grigri from the biner. I would've also loved to see a test with the carabiner in the orientation suggested by the manual and if there's any possibility at all to cross-load or other problematic behaviour.

[@fstarr9923]

Thanks for another great vid!

[@stevesherwood1946]

Great video as always, thanks for your efforts! I’ve been using one of these biners and I have found it to be a little fiddly to orient correctly when setting up. My belay loop doesn’t go into the small basket all that easily, and nor does the grigri! The HMS that came with my mammut smart works much better

[@haveawonderfulday279]

I use de HMS from Mammut as well (have been since 2019, 3 times a week) and it never crossloaded... :)

[@dirtyintel5668]

Love your vids!

[@nicacrush]

My two favorite channels doing a collab!

[@ryancheney7772]

When the gridlock came out I got one to use with my grigri 1, belaying for hours a day in a gym. I quickly ran into the cross loading issue. I quicky found reversing the biner was the most convenient and effective way to solve the issue. I never had a problem doing it this way, and you get pretty fast at setting it up. As far as missing your belay loop and breaking the pin, a simple visual inspection (which should ALWAYS be done), will catch this issue easily. I think the risk of crossloading a normal biner is probably higher than the risk of cutting your belay loop because you loaded a gridlock incorrectly AND missed it during inspection AND broke the pin AND cut through your loop because you still didn't notice.

[@johnliungman1333]

Still, the biner could probably be redesigned to fix these issues, right? Safe handling should not require a lit of special knowledge and work-arounds!

[@jmchich1]

Sorry Ryan, but you're rather missing the point here. Other manufacturers have belay carabiners with better-designed gates on them. The DMM ones (as someone else pointed out here in the comments) have a wire gate that automatically puts the belay loop through if you haven't put it in correctly. The gridlock is not the only carabiner of this type and hence the binary choice of gridlock versus normal HMS is a falacy.

[@wacojones8062]

I broke a Black Diamond reverse lock on a short wall climb due to rope rubbing I called BD and that model went out of production. I had a friend break several US army Issue ones. I trained unit members in rappelling on a 55-foot tower and always told them if all you have are weak army ones use them in pairs with gates opposite except the ones used as brake bars. Much safer than a single wrap and hope your gloves do not melt through.

[@custom7762]

it’s very interesting. this video tell me a lot of skill and acknowledge. thanks.

[@coreytaggart128]

Few suggestions if you do a test like this again; Standard welding helmets make vision impaired due to very dark lenses. I have no clue the impact rating for them as it is often splatter they are concerned about. Get a ladder not that table before it drops you. If you are expecting to break metal wear some pants/long sleeves to protect from flying parts.

[@datoon83]

Awesome video, been using mine for years on tube but rarely with a GriGri. I think there is another video where it gets cross loaded and snaps the bottom nose, then you can basically cut the belay loop. Scary...

[@firsttodothat375]

Great video. Thanks

[@ShurikB93]

Had a disc6with a friend about the nose breaking a while ago,.glad to see actual experiment

[@allezvenga7617]

Thanks for your sharing

[@albertomazzoleni7149]

hi Ben, i personally love this carabiner ahahah, and i always use i on the smaller loop for the gri gri. Its true tho that u need to get used to put it on ahahaha

[@steffen3382]

wow! Knowing your gear and how to (not?) use it really makes a big difference!

[@ClimbingEasy]

Take a look at the Mad Rock Gemini. It looks complicated, but it is so intuitive to use.

[@torinstorkey]

Its in the manual for the black diamond gridlock magnetron. small loop on the grigri side is recommended.

[@emalonda]

Como experimento es interesante. Personalmente creo que todos los mosquetones con sistema antigiro tienen su truco, hasta que te acostumbras a ellos siempre cuesta un poco, sea el modelo que sea. Llevo años utilizando el de BD, con el grigri en el bucle pequeño, cumple perfectamente con su función y me parece el más cómodo, con diferencia. Me preocupa mucho más que mi compañero utilice un HMS sin antigiro, mosquetones muy antiguos o que sea un despistado ;) Saludos y enhorabuena por el canal!

[@jasonmountain4643]

When I belay, I use grigri wider side to have mobility when belaying. When repelling, I ATC guide on smaller side to keep in place better.

[@CasperEngineering]

Awesome work, more colabs!

[@EvanWisheropp]

I personally find it faster and easier to have the grigri in the smaller loop so I was surprised by the outro. I load the grigri, clip the biner, rotate it, and put it on the belay loop. quick and simple and you can easily leave the grigri hanging on the rope.

[@henryreed1819]

I considered buying this BD HMS since I lost that crazy impractical plastic thing from Mammut smart HMS. But at least my carabiner is still safe to use unlike your BD with broken nose. 😁 Thanks for your videos and tutorials by the way. You are doing great job! 👍

[@tehrater480]

Loved it!

[@briswolf]

The DMM Ceros carabiner has a horn on one side (opposite the gate) which makes it impossible to cross-load with a grigri. I have one and would recommend it to anyone using a grigri.

[@___r0w]

Ich habe keine Ahnung vom klettern und werde es auch nie haben. Aber Rohdaten sind einfach geil! Vielen Dank!