Mythic Raiding Doesn't Work Anymore

It hit Nascent, BDGG, and even my own team. Let's find out why. Head to squarespace.com/bellulargaming to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code BELLULARGAMING. Sponsored by Squarespace.

[@BellularGaming]

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[@seanhouser4510]

Belular as a side note I wonder if you might mention, as classic wow is showing, maybe 10 man raids might be the way to go. More guilds might find it easier to support 2-3 times more 10 man raid teams with alts. AND t might be beneficial to drop raid lock outs to twice a week like classic SoD did.

[@Buildonsound]

I want to have fun, I'm not playing to compete

[@zanzabar4ky7]

We can't have fun raids since mythic is competition and heroic has to be a loot pinata. Everytime we get good heroic tuning it is called too hard and every time mythic is fun it cleared in a day by the too guilds

[@cuchulainnenjoyer]

True and real.

[@tommyc4641]

What if you’re someone that has fun competing?

[@zanzabar4ky7]

@@tommyc4641 we have about 100-200 people who play the competitive version. If you like to compete it would suck to play for nerfs.

[@Buildonsound]

@@tommyc4641 congratz, you have become a minority. now go to someone who cares.

[@tomclark637]

A world so big that could be used as a playground for innovative things, like events where players are actively involved within the lore instead we have the OCD M+ spamming...

[@panegyr]

I don't play anymore but I would definitely cite the rise of M+ in legion and BFA as a key factor for losing long term interest in the game, before anything had happened over at blizzard

[@LiffuvirLiff]

boomer alert

[@lubsok16]

you can, its called rp :P

[@Subzzy]

As a former raid leader of a mythic guild throughout Shadowlands and Dragonflight I completely agree with all of the points in this video. We disbanded in Aberrus during Echo of Neltharion because we would spent at least 30 minutes each night banging our heads against a wall trying to set up everyone's weakaura lists and minimap setups etc. bear in mind that our roster was already limited due to people leaving over the course of the expansion and due to recruitment being sparse we would have to scramble to find enough people to reach 20 players, sometimes having to use social players. Then of course we'd have to set up their weakauras from scratch again each time... It was absolutely exhausting and killed my enjoyment of raiding entirely. It sometimes feels like you have to have a degree in data analytics to raid lead some bosses because of weakauras, private auras and mechanic complexity. Not to mention having to figure out if we have enough buffs across the classes/specs we have to even bother trying to raid (to hit tight dps checks etc.). My fondest memories of WoW raiding was during 10 man heroic wotlk/cataclysm/MoP, it was MUCH easier to keep a stable roster, it felt like everyone knew eachother better in a smaller team and the game didn't have the weakaura/boss mechanic bloat that it does nowadays. But even looking over the footage of my guild's blackhand kill back in WoD, all of the POVs just had DBM and bartender installed and that's it... I don't play WoW anymore but if they were to reduce the mythic roster requirement, change up their approach to weakauras & boss mechanic complexity, reduce the need to have to nerf bosses each week just to allow guilds to progress and increase class buff diversity it would for sure reignite my passion to want to raid again.

[@PookieYan]

I'm in a similar boat. Would love to play again but I won't put myself through it again. Auras should just be banned frankly.

[@skwervin1]

I remember playing then with only DMB, Recount and for the healers - healbot although for general dungeons I didn't need it but for 25 man where I had to do cleanses etc it was helpful to quickly drop a clean on a raider without missing a beat keeping the tank alive. Those were the days when you had one full set of gear for pvp, one for pve and one for raiding because you would often pve as a ret pally, but raid as holy.

[@SilentSpringzzz]

Just remove addons bs and other wtf u need to do for preparation. Rather use skill then whatever the F u mentioned

[@TheTaydak]

The hardest thing i find is getting into a mythic guild that lasts more than half way into a season the guilds don't disband players just stop turning up and logging in so something is wrong when players just get bored/frustrated that they stop playing the game then reappear when a new season starts.

[@Spectre1Gaming]

It's yet one more reason Mythic Raiding should be removed.

[@tupacshakur5868]

@@Spectre1Gaming ye, remove it and make heroic as hard as mythic is now and make normal as hard as heroic is now, keep lfr, everything is back to pre MOP and everyone is happy.

[@Spectre1Gaming]

@@tupacshakur5868 How about they just remove Mythic keep Heroic get rid of all addons and see if people can actually do it?

[@jackmango5603]

@@Spectre1GamingWow has one of the biggest skill gaps between players, and removing hard content would alienate their most loyal player base for no reason. The cat is out of the bag with addons. Class rotations have so many different interactions and buffs you have to track to play optimally that they would have to redesign classes to be played. They would also be removing a tun of quality of life that people have been used to having for years.

[@Spectre1Gaming]

@@jackmango5603 After going from 12 million players to 1.5 million maybe it's time for change and they should put the Massive back into MMO.

[@benoitrousseau4137]

My guild hit a brick wall when they introduced Mythic. We were kicking butts in Mists as a heroic 10 guild, but then Blizzard introduced Mythic and everything else became easier. We went through a failed merger attempt with another H10 guild to get a roster of 20 in WoD, and it went so badly that our guild leader wanted to quit the game so we just pulled back and decided to stay an H10 guild instead. However, the most competitive among us lost interest due to not being able to push themselves, and by Legion were quitting the game one after the other. So yeah, screw Mythic.

[@Emyroth]

Same. Raiding stopped being fun when we felt forced to merge with another core to hit the 20 man requirement for mythic back then. the politics, backstabbing and drama was exhausting, keeping good players in was much harder.

[@liamdavies2823]

i think mythic can exist as it is if normal and heroic are just made harder

[@YumYum820]

​@@liamdavies2823 or if there is no roster limit for Mythic like heroic and normal. Also make sure you don't lock individuals to a specific raid id for mythic only either lock them all or lock none of them.

[@toetotoeto7438]

Git gud, it is not blizzards fault that you suck

[@nissiahawke2054]

it was complex enough to keep a roster for H10, when they announced "we're giving you a chance to meet new friends" i just felt not worth the struggle

[@Obla1337]

heroic is "too easy" now because you can outgear it in two weeks of doing m+

[@ambermay7032]

This is the big problem with Heroic raids. My guild just spams high keys then shows up to heroic raid in better gear than you can get from the raid itself. We smash all of the bosses because we are basically mythic geared. So much of the gear that drops in raid, except for specific trinkets or weapons with effects, gets vendored. M+ needs to be a supplement to gear level for raid, not a replacement.

[@austinullery7387]

You can carry more players in Heroic raid than you can +20. There's something to be said there

[@kafgark]

that's because Heroic is not the last difficult, it is mythic. If there were M+ in LK 3.3.5a, M+ gear would be the ilvl from ICC 10 man HC or almost 25 man HC

[@timbreaux1321]

Yes I clear heroic ez and I’m a pvper

[@hanzomain8302]

Because there are people who don’t like to raid but run dungeons. You don’t have to run high keys if you don’t enjoy it. I hate raiding and I hate to wait for people until raid is ready to start. M+ respects my time much more.

[@anisro7722]

I am the GM of a 6x CE guild. This is the worst mythic raiding has ever been IMO. Tindral and Fryakk in particular are destroying guilds and leading to the burnout you mentioned at an alarming pace. This combined with Blizzard not nerfing them enough has led to more and more of my friends in other guild leaving the game than I’ve ever seen. The bosses should be hard enough that it’s satisfying to kill them, but they shouldn’t be so hard that people are burning out because of the pull counts combined with the frustration of mandatory WA’s, and forced composition. It’s so sad to see. It’s an MMO it’s NOT AN ESPORT.

[@mweb6908]

That is utterly a YOU issue. Only YOU want to play the MMO as an esport. If it is not fun for you, dont play that way. It is a game. If you or your social group want to play that way just suffer. And hopefully you disband. Tldr. Shut up. Nobody is forcing you to play it like an esport

[@Atroll995]

serious question not hating but shouldn't the game have something that is extremely difficult? Is it really an achievement if everyone was able to do something? I am sure that it is very difficult to do Mythic but it should be like that, right? What solution do you recommend? Maybe increase the difficulty of heroic and the rewards? It is a tough balance I guess because on the one hand you want difficult enough content so people take time to complete so they don't finish early and quit but then not too hard so that they take forever to complete and quit before hand.

[@lif3l3ssgaming]

​@@Atroll995its fine to have challenging content but content being impossible for 95-99% of the playerbase isnt the way to do it not in an mmo. Also as someone who enjoys pushing M+ it sucks to have BiS behind content and hoping a guild that i join that isnt in the top 100-200 that doesnt die halfway threw prog let alone even attempt to farm for these major pieces of loot.

[@shadowdragon8168]

@@Atroll995 There should be difficult content, but what mythic has become has gone to far, its become to hard for most mythic guilds to do and when mythic is making a majority of people in cutting edge guilds, that love doing hard content, quit when they've been able to do this in previous tiers, there's a problem, its gone to far.

[@jimcook7053]

It's trying to be both, & failing imo

[@HaterOfReddit]

As a top 100 World player, I have to agree. Trials are just non-existent and theres no loyalty among those that are still new. As well as everyone is getting constantly poached to even higher up guilds. Comp management is one of the biggest issues killing the game at this level too because of the buffs needed in the 20 man raid, when Cata solved this issue. Hope to see more videos soon Belluar!

[@Vixxie_Aerogosa]

Me personally, I'm sick of being in raid teams that only last one tier. That's happened to me every tier since nyalotha

[@BellularGaming]

@@Vixxie_Aerogosa mhm. That kinda thing killed much of WoW for me for years.

[@Vixxie_Aerogosa]

@@BellularGaming Sod thankfully has changed that for the better. I've had more fun there than in retail frankly

[@KC-py5vq]

​@@Vixxie_Aerogosasod is fun but it has no challenge to it regarding raids and dungeons

[@truce3038]

how did cata fix it (i didn't play cata)

[@StoneLegion]

When I started in 2004, was was not a competitional game. We had 40 man raids, you could have a few meh apples, and overall things went down well. I feel like more time goes on WoW feels more like pitting each other vs the fun cooperative play. I'm getting too old for that and Just don't have that kind of energy anymore.

[@elfdragon4life909]

Exactly! Wow players are getting older, and we just want to log in and have fun to relieve some stress, not stress out more than we do at work.

[@WINTERGRIFT]

heroic still exists though

[@nickhewes6860]

​@@WINTERGRIFTThat doesn't affect the problems caused by Mythic being terribly designed. Apples are good and all, but we're discussing oranges.

[@DXVTH]

The whole game in the end game is tuned for the very small competitive "ESport" guilds

[@coomercommander2554]

i'm not an esport player but i can still effortlessly mythic raid without a guild wdym lol.

[@Fuel6233]

@@coomercommander2554 yea....

[@JJarrhead]

@@coomercommander2554 no one believes you

[@aaron5222]

​@JJarrhead if yoy play on a big server like illidan us its easy .

[@lennox21]

@@aaron5222 One person saying otherwise in a sea of people saying its the other way. Congratz they are special because that's not most peoples experiences. So im gonna Agree with @JJarrhead, No one believe either of you.

[@appellosesso]

esports have gradually ruined the game over the last 16 years for 99% of the community. time to see them off permanently, in an official capacity.

[@borek92]

I thought the problem was always game catering to casual players? lol which is it then? Lfg, lfr, cross realm, catch up mechanics, steering the game further and further away from the multiplayer aspect? Game was never made for the tryhards. They had their niche side of the game and enjoyed it.

[@threeormorechar]

@@borek92by esports, I think they mean seasonal fomos ness of it, new season replace all your gear you farmed out in raids in 2 - 3 days, do raid/mythic plus replace all that gear, repeat, get the new seasonal cosmetics, game is fairy formulaic

[@jesusrojas2668]

not gonna happen, lots of money involved

[@bluegaming1346]

@@threeormorechar the seasonal m+ rotation and gear refresh is literally the best part of the whole system...

[@appellosesso]

@@threeormorechar sorta. I mean what you've mentioned is a singular piece in a pie of issues that have rippled out of WoW's official esports support, poisoning the development of the game. The gradual increase in complexity to compensate for better performance addons in both PvP and PvE is a serious problem. It also wastes dev time/resources that would be better spent on new endgame ideas and the possibility of more structured, multifaceted, enhanced, enjoyable progression systems in not only the endgame, but in leveling to extend the life of the game (leveling issues are more closely related to the WoW token issue but I digress.) Ideas for different modes of RP, PvE, and PvP content can't be explored because so much goes into raid/dungeon/arena design around esports, and balancing thousands of different abilities, effects, and items. **TLDR: The game can focus more on flavorful, lore-driven content when it is unshackled from the current esports-fueled competitive design.**

[@guystevens5429]

The fact that you need so many addons just to make raiding viable is the biggest indicator that the designs are broken.

[@MrDill9876]

u dont need msot .... my guild MT uses barely any addons pretty much a few weak auras to call timers

[@arzos2603]

its just weakauras tbh.. and i did mythic raiding for the past years its fun but people just stop mid progress to log in and have to regear a person again over and over

[@GothyG]

DBM and weak thats about it.

[@PsychKenn23]

it's a feedback loop though because they keep designing the fights knowing players will use add ons to make it easier

[@lennox21]

@@MrDill9876Weak auras are the issue

[@jaredsdad1979]

one big problem is that people expect echo/limit level players for a 3/9M level guild

[@shiningarmour6805]

It's hilarious how "mythic raiding is dying" is synonymous to "guilds are dying" In WoW, they may as well call guilds _Raid Groups_ It's so weird coming from other games where guilds are so much more than that

[@bradoncrandall6840]

They used to be so much more back in the day. Best times of WoW for me is still BC and Wrath.

[@EOHRyan]

The game has become a shopping mall conveyor belt for loot, unfortunately that's also true in Classic.

[@bradoncrandall6840]

@@EOHRyan That is fair, I never got into classic to be honest. That is too bad.

[@Fleato]

look at games like runescape where clans are just groups of people who get to gether to do what ever. my rs clan does shit like a bingo sort of thing where you go kill bosses to get loot drops and if you get certain loot drops then you get bingo and you get a clan funded prize. wow has always been just a raid team. I dont even do m+ with my guild because the skill need for what you are doing in m+ is so broad and I dont want to be obligated to bring the worst person in the guild to my key im trying to push.

[@DragonsController8]

Totalbiscuit once said “if an encounter can’t be done without addons then you’ve failed to make a good encounter.”

[@Mashangi]

So all of Wow?

[@josephteller9715]

@@Mashangi no just all the badly done raids... probably everything since MOP.

[@rabl3535]

WoW depends so much on add-ons to its detriment that having none would break it. It’s a terrible game made poorly.

[@AudamGaming]

let mythic raiding die, let's go back to basics with heroic and hard mode bosses.

[@DarkkLestat]

Mythic raiding is the shit, heroic wasn't hard enough. I've been mythic raiding since legion and my guild hasn't looked back

[@NeptuFawkes]

@@DarkkLestatmythic raiding now (and in legion) is what heroic and hard modes used to be though, they added a tier and nerfed the others below to make it easier for casual entry

[@keithb6344]

@@NeptuFawkesMythic started in WoD, but I think I understand your point. If you are saying hardmodes were more like mythic, that really isn’t true either. Mythic is harder and has been. You could also skip a hard mode and just move to the next boss, you can’t in mythic. Oranges and tangerines.

[@Huhujadu]

I mean LK 25H was pretty hard for the time, people were dumber but it was harder. maybe... what we need is "new".@@NeptuFawkes

[@sgtBONGwater]

​@@DarkkLestat It is the shit. They should remove it, and make it the only difficulty.

[@hidingcoward5903]

Blizzard is basically walking a tightrope balance between the massive exposure the game receives during RWF (Amirdrassil was one of the most watched PVE RWF in the history of mmo genre) and making Mythic raiding more accessable. If Blizz pushes more in one direction, the other one suffers. I say, it sucks for the rest of the playerbase to clean up the mess left by Echo and Liquid for the next six months after the release of the new raid. It happened with Sepulcher, it happened AGAIN with Amirdrassil.

[@BellularGaming]

100%

[@chi15800]

well yes, so why not divorce RWF from mythic? Something like adding RWF mode on top of mythic, while releasing normal mythic in parallel (the one with all the obvious upcoming nerfs). Just make an Elite mode or smth, maybe keep it up un-nerfed all tier so some non-rwf but sweaty mythic raiders might want to attempt it towards the end of the tier. Smth like World Class > Cutting Edge > AOTC

[@sleepingknights9166]

​@@BellularGaming Just a idea: have a npc in the mythic raid. If you talk to him it will get a "qualified for hall of fame " buff that scale your ilvl to heroic. It will be a massiv challenege and everyone will watch the race. Mythic Bosses then have not to be tuned to max gear amymore. The mythic gear will Constandly nerf mythic bosses.

[@masqerader]

Blizzard isn't responsible for player created events

[@rabl3535]

@@masqeraderthey should be able to tune things in their own game to accommodate. If Bungie can do it in Destiny, blizzard which is a bigger company and has way more resources should be able to do it as well. Of course, they can’t, that would require them to be competent; these days that is the antithesis of what “blizzard quality” represents.

[@javeh_]

ban all addons and make raids that are possible to do without them

[@vinniv6806]

yes. WoW without raid / dungeon addons is my dream. But Blizzard will never do this. They are just too stupid.

[@SilentSpringzzz]

@@vinniv6806yea i never used them besides dps meter or little things. Cause sounds u need an whole setup to just play raids

[@rabl3535]

@@SilentSpringzzzat points they were necessary to even clear fights, but blizzard is not competent enough to fix it

[@Journeying.]

I used to mythic raid. I don't miss it.

[@jackrowley8148]

Here’s an Idea. Since Blizzard is able to create tournament realms for AWC and MDI. Why not create a tournament realm for RWF, with active tuning/scaling for the top 20/50/100 guilds with a sign up for that tournament realm that becomes available when the patch release date is announced. Then at the end of RWF, the player characters are copied back to live servers with their updated gear/achievements/etc. Meanwhile lock Mythic until RWF is over. Once its released after say 6-8 weeks, put in a raid wide debuff or buff similar to Hellscreams Warsong in ICC to increase player accessibility into the content.

[@Freestyle80]

yeah have no challenge, make everything Molten Core level because people feel bad when they arent able to do the content

[@surtfire3280]

Our guild used to mythic back in BFA and Shadowlands, but after losing a few people we only get a solid 15 ish people each week. So we stopped doing mythic in Dragonflight solely due to struggling to get a reliable 20 people. Scaling it like the other raids would help imo.

[@masqerader]

no it wouldn't.. you would just create a strict meta and those players would find themselves without a spot and moving on to another guild... flex mythic raiding will never look, it's why they went with a static 20, because it's easier to tune around a set number than flex.

[@iceflame360]

If blizz really wants rwf they have to make it completely separate from everyone else

[@Scott.webb64]

Big time. RWF should be a completely game mode, accessible by these esports folks and tuned for the event. No random WoW player can sustain that type of raiding when playing as a hobby/for fun.

[@k1r10n]

Just make Mythic flex and introduce RWF difficulty.

[@War_Numen]

I've never missed 10 man raiding more. They can fix the issues with must have classes by giving raid specific abilities that account for missing buffs and composition optimisation. Maintaining and running a 20 man raiding team is a nightmare.

[@bosssavage3325]

Nah, they just need profession items that give all class buffs like they had before. Also, these should persist through death.

[@michaelkaster5058]

10 man raiding did more to kill guilds than anything that is happening now, it was a 'nightmare' having people leave the guild and then spend months trying to poach players, cause they knew no one else. Now considering how soft everyone is emotionally, it is going to be a 'nightmare' to keep a 10 man together.

[@Zarod89]

@@michaelkaster5058 How is it any harder keeping 10man together rather than 20? Your logic is flawed

[@michaelkaster5058]

@@Zarod89You are flawed with a lack of understanding. You are pushing the can down the road, the core problem is raidng isn't fun/rewarding/etc, what ever the reason people are leaving. If people are leaving, then eventually 10 man will be 'impossible' to fill. It is not the size, it is the game's feel for what ever people value with their time. Recruiting has always been difficult/time consuming, just that most people don't see it cause the are not involved in guild officership. Declining participation is the symptom, changing size isn't the cure it, it just delays the eventual outcome that may come without more fundamental change. There are less people, why? the population has been more stable over this expansion compared to other recent expansions.

[@lennox21]

@@michaelkaster5058 Both can be true your just being an ass.

[@LiliumCruorem]

I wish there was something comparable to mythic raiding for solos. I pick up wow for a few weeks every time a new xpack comes out but the last few xpacks I have just let me sub die after a week or two. There’s just nothing to do besides farm transmogs in old raids if you’re a solo. Like after you do the surface level content, get leveled and geared in the best stuff you can get from rando que and world quests there is nothing to do unless you wanna turn the game into a job and try and join a good guild. I prefer to play alone cause I hate having my enjoyment of a game depend on other people. It would be nice to have more solo friendly endgame.

[@keefers]

mage tower

[@ryanmullen483]

Sounds like the MMO genre isn't for you bro

[@CZDBZGamingbyBuwob]

Mage tower ,it was a honor to do in legion (arms warr🫡 )u can do it also now but im not sure how big difference is ..aaand also a lot of guys werent capable to complete it ..

[@LiliumCruorem]

@@ryanmullen483 i’ve been playing mmos since 2001 dude. I’ve always been a solo in every mmo I’ve played. It’s a problem most mmos have. The endgame is almost always locked behind group/guilds and it can get a little frustrating cause you either have to join a toxic min/max guild to do content or suffer through randoms/hunt down groups on discord. WoW has done some cool solo friendly endgame content but then a new xpack comes out and they just drop it. It would be totally dope if we had something that was like Mage Tower and Torghast that gave rewards comparable to Mythic. Maybe not as good as Mythic gear, but good enough that solo enjoyers don’t feel like they’re being fully left out. That’s all I am looking for in an mmo. I like mmos for the economic advantages and global chat tbh. I don’t like having my gameplay defined by how others choose to play if that makes sense!

[@ryanmullen483]

@@LiliumCruorem I can see where your coming from and I still don't really get it but to each their own I suppose. Having another mage tower like thing would be cool but I guess we play the game for exact opposite reasons

[@CrazyScubaCouple]

easiest solution is getting rid of different tiers, like in ulduar, and making the hard modes come back, in iron council boss encounter there where different ways of defeating it, each was more difficult that the previous one with it's intended reward, but it was up to the raid to decide how to do it, that would solve the issue while at the same time i understand it's design from the devs perspective to be more challenging.

[@GeorgeNoX]

Its just too damn sweaty at this point.

[@storathzaleric1141]

Mythic raiding 10 man letsgo

[@Arth950]

Mythic flex more like it

[@Spectre1Gaming]

Just get rid of Mythic Raiding and all the Addon's with it let's see how many Guilds can do Heroic with No addons at all.

[@wormwood8071]

​@@Arth950 please unsub

[@jabeltre1]

Mythic raiding 10 lets go!

[@masqerader]

Won't happen, you would just create an even stricter meta which you kids are already crying about now

[@Daniel_M3694]

"We have so many things you can do! Why are you just raid logging?" Because the things we want to do we have already done, and the things that we could do aren't fun.

[@surtfire3280]

I'm in the minority, but I enjoyed mandatory daily and weekly quests. Meant I had something to do each day. Now I've got my seasonal AoTC, elite set and M+ teles, no reason to play for me.

[@nathanpurss4582]

10 Man Mythic is would be my go-to. M+ is just way better than raiding simply based on time commitment and the amount of players required

[@cullenasaro2229]

I’ve had my run of mythic raiding for a bit now. I’ve been parsing fairly well in our kills as well so I am experienced. I do take it seriously. But honestly I’m just tired. I really don’t want to do all this weak aura stuff anymore. I don’t want to have to mega farm M+ every day at the start of a patch, spamming one dungeon repeatedly because my trink drops in it (I ran FH literally 60 times for dice). I don’t want to pull a boss 200 times until we kill it. We have to repeatedly cycle through players because they just die of exhaustion. Resetting our prog. Its like clockwork. We finally get the group clicking, then the patch ends and the cycle repeats. It’s basically a FULL restart especially now with the ilvl changes. Whats even the point. I’m raiding 8/9 hours a week (a full extra work day). It’s just not fun anymore. And I quit. It’s really sad. Maybe I’ll download the game when War within drops.

[@masqerader]

You literally didn't do a single weakaura, u downloaded it... LOL

[@cullenasaro2229]

@@masqerader yea. I never said I MADE them. But you do have to spend time setting them up for raid and to fit well with your UI. It’s just another thing I don’t want to do.

[@dailyzq5943]

Why do a second job that has no income.

[@Felanthropy]

My personal wants for the future of raiding is either 10/flex mythic groups and a return of the optional challenges that we had in Ulduar. Having that choice on a per boss basis that gave progression raid groups the freedom to choose the level of challenge they wanted was way more fun than just ticking a box before zoning in.

[@FelipeSantos-wu1uf]

Delete all addons, allow 10 man mythic + don't design the launch around RWF, easy.

[@mweb6908]

Bro 10 man m+???? Nah pls no

[@technicolour2056]

I dropped out of mythic raiding strictly because of how intrusive raid-specific weakauras had become to my gameplay. The game itself is so illegible that one finds themselves looking more at their weakaura suite more than the actual encounter space. If that gets reigned in, I would happily jump back in because I really do still love playing the game.

[@Lxerm]

Same issue here. Heroic is way to easy and I mostly pug them, but the barrier of entry for mythic is quite insane

[@FelipeSantos-wu1uf]

Thats what happens when you design a game for literally 80 people

[@masqerader]

you must be bad at math

[@user-jm5nu6ei2k]

So why not put the hardest version of the raid out on a tournament server

[@Damnation1989]

Honestly believe it’s time to make mythic 10 man raid size. Our heroic group is 12 man who are all ex ce raiders and would love to get back into mythic but it’s almost impossible to get a dedicated 23-24 man roster for mythic

[@DaBigBossTV]

FOR THE SAKE OF OUR GAME PLEASE MAKE MYTHIC 10 MAN BLIZZARD!!!

[@tylerfrick4419]

10 player mythic sounds like an amazing idea. if there's one thing the classic versions of the game have taught me, especially SoD, its that 10-man is by far the most fun for group size. Even FF14 has their highest tier of difficulty set to 8-man. I think harder content with less people might just be the way to go. at least it would motivate me to actually give it a try. also i think needing to have 3-4 different classes for high end content is just weird. i think it as a concept needs to die. idk how you do this as a developer, but if there's a solution to it, I would personally label it as a problem. when you talk about the extra curriculars to prep for cutting edge raiding, extending that extra curricular work to 3-4 toons makes that problem multiplicative.

[@thedad1652]

Honestly if they want to bring a challenge to the game and and remove mythic as a thing kill add ons. Forces you to play to learn, brings back the challenge to the game. You can go into any dungeon now and be told exactly what to do when to do it. You can roll into mythic plus and get to hero gear within a few weeks.

[@JennNinjakittenCootware]

I used to be a major raider in BC and ICC, and remember to some extent attunements for going to Black Temple. What if we not only had 10 man mythic raids, but ALSO had attunements for those who want to go for mythic raiding (might see fewer sales of runs)

[@christ7584]

My guild runs with about 15-17 regular raiders. We have a lot of people that want to mythic raid. We have gotten to 3/9 mythic this season pugging the remainder of the players we need. I would love for 10m or flex mythic, maintaining a 24ish man roster is a nightmare

[@CODmaster366]

thats why you either take mythic raiding away. Or you buff up the tier sets and armor to properly progress through the raids

[@maple.everything]

Mythic raids should be the same as Heroic raids, just tuned to be harder and rewarding exclusive vanity xmogs/titles/mounts. This way, Mythic gear can't trivialize the Heroic difficulties and Mythic raids can access a greater pool of willing players.

[@patrikstenzl1942]

Easy solution for mythic raiding - have mythic difficulty for regular players and something like mythic+ with same ilvl loot for hardcore players with some Hall of Fame. This way there is no need to wait for heavy nerfs and avoiding devaluation of players who managed to kill it before nerfs.

[@saurlex1368]

There is a secret all powerful boss in every patch of every xpac, known as the roster boss and it will eventually defeat your guild.

[@jacobhornberger4184]

I always look at mythic and think “this isn’t made for me” My guild raids heroic weekly but cant consistently have everyone available for raid, and often we are always missing healers and tanks. We pug whatever we are missing and still have fun. But I can’t imagine us ever attempting mythic like that.

[@NovusGM]

I was a former CE mythic raider. LFR, normal, heroic and mythic. I am surprised it went on this long tbh. There are too many raiding mods, and it never felt the right setup for raiding anyway.

[@masqerader]

CE means nothing, you can kill the last boss of the last day and be "CE"

[@a1pha_star]

“WoW is an exclusive club and you’re not invited” is the feeling I get from this game/community.

[@DeltaDragon79]

"World Of Warcraft is not a game for you." Seems to be the underlining sentiment I get now a days when I think of trying it again.

[@Gorvinhagen]

I'm glad you changed the very questional "sweat drop".

[@remdorak]

Does anyone have a link to the interviews in which Ion said these comments? I seem to struggle finding them and I'd like to rewatch them

[@taylorhicks5678]

My mythic team just disbanded after being unable to maintain 20 every night getting stuck on Smoldy. Really sad 😢

[@zimek]

I wanted to Mythic raid this expansion. After 6th guild collapsing/or giving up on mythic I also gave up... + another thing is that you need to do M+ and RAID pararell to get best setup which also discourage me for raiding.

[@masqerader]

no you don't, just stop

[@livingadreaminparadise9307]

The problem with Mythic its a lot of work with little reward, and many are just bored and fed up with it...

[@eLguL]

The weakaura part is soo fucking true, when like 50 % of your skill/dmg output depends on how good you setup your interface/addons, something is wrong with the game

[@frankberki7470]

i don't se the point in running mythic raid. When the next patch is going to make the gear useless.

[@Criam]

In that case why play the game?

[@Morethanjustaplum]

My characters on a dead server couldnt even mythic raid with a guild if i wanted too. I know war within xrealm guilds will be a thing but there is no insentive to do mythic raiding tbh

[@straighttalkwithkyle7947]

It used to be that working on the highest level of difficulty on the last raid of the expansion was what kept you subscribing until the next expansion and its how you filled the content gap. Moving the goal posts takes that away. Back in the day when it was just normal and heroic in Wrath for example simply getting a normal Lich King kill was a major accomplishment but you could do it with a very diverse group if you spend a few months working on it. Heroic was for the guilds that were stacking the meta specs and if you wanted to participate you didn't always get to choose your preferred class or spec even if you weren't a top 200 guild.

[@cindthialarrabee6544]

This is coming from a former mythic raider myself, where I enjoyed content but even then these season suck so badly I just don't want to do good, and I don't want the pressure of doing the best, because people expect me to carry 24/7. From loot hogs using 'loot council' to people flat out not wanting to try on doing mechanics it's pretty much a suffering issue, and the lack of people wanting to be a leader and just say they were. If you add eliteism into the situation then you're pretty much bound to not enough the game. Even if I sit in a position of leadership it's mostly begging from other players to get into the raid who aren't even geared for it etc. Mythic plus has had a similar issue where no one steps up unless they have to in order to do a key, and the other problem is you have to result in using I.O. score to have a 'resume' nearly as much as Season of Discovery people do just to have a high chance to get rejected for the key. Let's not even start with the healer drought issue since not many people want to play them, including myself because it doesn't feel great anymore. It feels like there's more pressure on a healer to be a DPS that tosses out heals now and again, and depending on the M+ week does more mechanics then 99% of the group because most DPS don't want to mechanic at the end of the season and expect a face roll though anything around a 20 key when it doesn't work that way.

[@chidy9699]

For roster my guild found that having some people who aren't really interested in mythic prog, but do play and do m+ and such for fill helps a lot. We have a number of people who really only want to do herioc, but are willing to step in for a night if we're missing someone.

[@joshuawilson800]

I think between community feedback and seeing how many 10H guilds are in Cata classic they may rethink there approach to Mythic. I know the classic guild I have been in since TBC has lost a lot of players but the core group of friends who have been doing the 10 man raids on SoD are looking forward to being able to do 10H and most people I talk to are in a similar situation. I would also enjoy the potential for us to do difficult 10 man content on retail if we every wanted too as well.

[@pumirya]

This is what happens when you design your game not for everyone but for only a few to enjoy. It’s sadly not a big surprise.

[@Booth-]

If you need weakauras to coordinate boss mechanics, then everything has failed.

[@noxot13]

there is appeal in difficult games such as souls games but when you add the factor of many people who can't fail it often gives social stress which is a problem in wow.

[@TheNacropolice]

Mythic raiding is a mistake. Heroic should be the final tier, as otherwise you have to run the same raid on Normal, then heroic (which is pretty much normal with an extra mechanic at most), and then you do mythic. However, the latter usually has hard cut offs so it becomes a job to keep your spot.

[@PawPawKitty]

I'm curious if other smaller group folks have noticed that some fights seem harder with smaller groups. Gnarlroot even on Heroic can get pretty dicey with 10 players during the root phase with trying to have a character in each soak, getting to the roots to burn them, and getting back in time to the randomly placed soak in all four sections. It also shows up in lack of buffs and abilities. Not having a Demon Hunter or Monk lowers overall group dps. Few healers, means fewer raid cooldowns to handle mechanics. Fewer healers also means each healer is more dependent on getting casts and dispels off dealing with not just major cooldowns, but even GCD, minor cooldowns, and cast times. Same goes for any need for CC and such. On Fyrakk, the same number of screaming adds spawn regardless of group size; knockbacks, grips, kicks, etc. become even more critical to manage those adds on a 10 player raid compared to 20-30 player raids. Also on Fyrakk, a high percentage chance for a seed carrier to be targeted with a tornado or blaze line. And in general decreased uptime of dps and healers as they deal with mechanics much more frequently. There is some positive flip side to smaller groups; fewer fire lines on Smolderon, fewer overall blaze lines on Fyrakk. In general always having to deal with mechanics means more practice and, hopefully, becoming good at the mechanic more quickly. As to tuning, yeah, past time to stop tuning for the race. As it is they are clearing it in no more than two weeks. Why bother trying to slow them down. Let them clear it in a day and leave the rest of us to have fun with it the rest of the patch. Racers don't matter and bring in very little value to World of Warcraft.

[@scanGfu]

We had 10 player mythic raiding before, in WoD. And I think it was great

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

So wait, we’ve sacrificed everything else about WoW in order to cater to this specific sorta of game modes and now it’s bitten them in the arse? Say it ain’t so..

[@keithb6344]

I love how the game has more quests and world content than ever and people still think they spend all their time on making a mythic raid.

[@livamyyo]

@@keithb6344Because they do. The world 'content' is garbage.

[@brizwaldjonson]

@@keithb6344 World content is mostly copy paste of other world content.

[@Akasar101]

@@keithb6344 The world content is extremely low effort, for the most part.

[@mattgarbe4840]

I have played in every aspect of this game, I’m a mythic raider, and I can tell you that the things I enjoy most are everything outside of mythic raid. Mythic raiding is probably my least favorite thing at the moment. And I love this game.

[@chami2077]

I mythic raid lead (only 7/9 this teir) and our biggest issue is the roster boss. I would like to see mythic become more flexible regarding roster size. I knows it's alot of extra tuning work. It would also help guilds include bench players if they have to many and also the smaller guilds with talented player continue to play within mythic content. I would start at 10 man and go by 5s.

[@nikp3516]

They should just put the racers on their own dedicated realm, do a global release and set a standard where they are unable to do splits. This removes the outside influence, removes the boring part of the race, and prevents blizzard from having to make bosses 3x harder than they need to be.

[@godfathery2kgaming324]

This is interesting, as a ATOC guide who started midway through the season. We have started to progress into Mythic has been great and growing, It is because we are just enjoying the game and company and not getting too serious, a good mix of people.

[@aaron5222]

Problem is bliz wants everyone to be able to everything.. .they cant make heroic sorta hard because 99% cant make it

[@arcadialive4265]

Mythic raiding is kind of like supercars. Few people would buy one, but almost all would like to see one on KZbin. Supercars like raiding guilds require a lot of attention, time care, and gold. HA!

[@Fqtz0r]

Give us 10man mythic format. I gave up mythic raiding because of the actual format, most of my friends did the same.

[@Mister_Vintage]

All they have to do it tune the mythic raid to RWF guilds being able to kill it without weak auras. Have a RWF week (or two) and then open the raid to the rest of us plebs.

[@TheWideMurloc]

I think all raids including mythic need to switch to the flex scaling model, and the scaling for flex needs to be retuned so it goes all the way up to 40, and gets a bit easier the more players you add (as opposed to now where there’s a “Goldilocks zone” of player count that’s optimal)

[@unknownkiller530]

10 man raiding was so much more fun then 20+. - I posted this before finishing the video. I’ll come back to retail if they add 10m mythic raiding. When they removed 10m mythic I left cause I didn’t have time to manage 20m and that’s the content I wanted.

[@joshshepherd5734]

I would love a mythic 10 experience and also why not have a special server for RWF that is tuned harder and than once that's over, then mythic difficulty opens across all realms and can be easier

[@EmperorGeiseric]

I argued a long time ago that they should never have gone from 10/25 to 20, but to a flat 10.

[@rudyrmn3043]

They abandonned retail to go on Sod and Classic. This tier in mythic was exhausting and they took too much Time to nerf those last bosses. Even now with full gear those bosses are more difficult than other tiers.

[@NorthstriderGaming]

So in short: the difficulty bump between normal and heroic is too low so they gotta give raids the same treatment as they will give dungeons.

[@smokeythagamer8521]

Bruh who has the time, energy, or patience for dedicated raiding these days??? Thats why M+ and world content has become so much more prevalent.

[@hanzomain8302]

Yep, I raided back until WoD but to be honest my time is much more valuable than to organise a Raid. M+ is much faster but has a challenge behind it.

[@Gotalanes789]

Yes im working from sunset to sundown most of the year, im not turning on a game to do a chore i just want to relax and have some fun, something i enjoy.

[@davidmanwarin221]

Tuesday and Thursday six to eleven pm for close to two years. A second job. It was fun. But now I’m fine with LFR and world stuff.

[@earlyoungjr2320]

I said it before, so many resources for 15 to 25 percent of players. Back in the day it made sense, but now other areas of the game suffer and they have to tinker too much....

[@noxot13]

can't believe there is no mythic 10 raiding, omg wtf.

[@TheZephanee]

I feel like Mythic 10 would have some of the same problems as Mythic 20 raiding. You would most likely have an even more rigid comp and needing exactly 10 players is still a hurdle. Even if they get rid of making one player’s mistake only affect them, losing even one player in a 10 player mythic comp would probably be a wipe anyway just because everyone staying alive is even more important. The solution would be have mythic be flex just like heroic, where you need a minimum of 10 players but can go up to 20 where the difficulty and mechanics would increase in doable increments.

[@bluegaming1346]

There needs to be something between mythic and heroic that allows less than 20 players imo. Like in my guild, we probably have 12 decent and dedicated enough players that we'd almost certainly be able to push all the way to at least mythic tindral (idk how much easiers he is now, post nerf), but because of the numbers of decent and dedicated players needed to do mythic raiding, that content is simply unreacheable for us without a massive shift in the guild direction and atmosphere (which is a good way to kill a guild that didn't start out as a ""hardcore"" raiding guild). I don't mind the current 20 man mythic competition existing (I actually think it's fair for hardcore people to be rewarded), but I do mind that I'm locked out of any more challenging raiding content than heroic, which is simply too easy to have fun with for the whole season.

[@Bear-vp9es]

Mythic raiding died for me when they forced the size to be 20m. I enjoyed the closer knit community and actually getting to know everyone in the group. I tried 20m, and it felt like no matter what, there were always people that just felt like pugs. I also felt that this feeling isn't just me, and I wouldn't be surprised if it played a role in the seemingly increased rates of people guild (completely anecdotal though). I understand the concerns about raid buffs and balancing around them, but if that means mythic will always be set to 20m, I'll likely never return to mythic raiding regardless of difficulty.

[@TaliesinMyrddin]

Feels like if heroic raiders are finding it too easy a quick and easy way to fix that would be to offer an option of several heroic difficulty options that make it a bit harder in return for a higher ilevel boost. Not quite Mythic+ style, but optional incremental difficulty increases up to Mythic - no extra special stuff, just stuff drops an upgrade tier higher.

[@F1ackm0nk3y]

As someone who’s played on and off since Vanilla, it amazes me that Bilzzard still uses player cap as part of their difficulty structure. You’d have thought they’d have learned their lesson from going from 40 to 25 but, I guess not. Mythic, IMO, should revolve around fewer people doing more mechanics of a fight. Adding more mechanics to a 25 man hinders boss mechanics creation (as the devs feel they must hold something in reserve for mythic). Make a fight hard to do for 25 man. Then, make it to wear only 10 people can do it. That should be the goal for mythic raiding IMO

[@AutomaticJak]

LOVED this! Great vid Bell and crew! BRING BACK MYTHIC TEN

[@TommyMcD]

I don't care for Mythic raiding because it's too heavy an investment from everyone and that's not respecting the people I play with or my own time.

[@dldallas5570]

I'm looking forward to seeing how cross-realm guilds might help this. I am skeptical of adding yet another difficulty in "flex" or "10-man" Mythic as we already have too many that aren't properly calibrated for an audience as it is and the ilvl inflation will just accelerate squishes even more. Of course, if you make 10-man and 20-man Mythic give the same level of loot then you end up with the Cata problem of balance issues and larger guilds dying out quickly over the course of just a couple raid tiers.

[@sgtBONGwater]

Cross realm would just slow the inevitable death of it. It didn't help arenas in the long run, eventually even the cross server pop will die.

[@HuskyAim]

@@sgtBONGwater Arenas are much more niche and different. PvP suffers so much worse than PvE due to the difficulty and how annoying it is to get an arena team together. Solo shuffle is the only good thing to come out of PvP in years.

[@lusalma5404]

I mean before wrath we had 10 and 25 man raids; 25 man you might just have multiple guilds sync up.

[@evilmarius]

Not just m raiding, m+ is also destined to die with this unbalanced role mechanics.