Myths about liberty horse training, busted!

[@EliaAliceRaven]

I fully agree about everything you said. The idea of the Cookie Monster, specifically, always amuses me because I have a Shetland pony who is the BIGGEST fan of treats (I mean... that's kind of a given just from her breed) and yet she NEVER comes into my space to ask for some. Why ? Because I taught her good manners... which is something people seem to have a hard time grasping for some reason. (What she does instead, and it's a lot funnier and it actually gets her treats from people at the stable on a rather regular basis, is be a huge clown and smile to people or call out to them. Because those are things she knows how to do on cue - yes, I taught her to do a soft whinny on cue... it took a whole year but it was worth it ! - and it often get her treats, so she's like well... it doesn't hurt to try, does it ?) I was never a fan of chasing horses around, but I was completely clueless at first when I started so I tried every idea I could get from the Internet (and 2012 French Internet was wildly different from what 2020 English Internet is like today). Well, fun fact : when you have six years of riding behind you but zero ground work experience, and you're trying to learn with a pony who was rescued from the slaughterhouse at two years old + probably beaten to some extent as a foal (her reactions to certain men with common physical traits, still to this day ten years later, are very indicative of that, to the point where I have a pretty clear 'image' of whoever it is who abused her by now) + terrified of people coming anywhere near her at the time (she'd known me for two years when I started working with her and had started calling out to me when she saw me coming near her stall already, but the second I removed the rope it'd take me half an hour to even touch her again because she was just THAT terrified of people in general), USING NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT JUST DOESN'T WORK. Or maybe it does, but if it does it's very, VERY slowly, so it was just much easier to stop altogether and only use positive reinforcement. Anyway, now she's trained as a circus pony for the fun of it, I can let her graze at liberty in open spaces because I can get her to come back to me in seconds if she freaks out, I can do some liberty with her on forest paths while on walks if I feel like it (in the middle of wheat fields, not so much... there's only so much you can override a Shetland pony's stomach :')), and her reactions are basically the complete opposite of what they were when I met her. So, yeah. I'm 100% team "positive reinforcement works and it works WELL". Finally, for the "you can teach your horse stuff at liberty" part : yes indeed, and it's you I have to thank for learning that ! I was still stuck in a halter/rope THEN liberty approach even after all this time with my pony, and I remember you mentioning that immediate liberty is very much doable in a video with Valiente a few months ago so I was like you know what, LET'S TRY IT. I'd been (on and off) trying to teach her the Spanish trot for a while (she can do a stallion-worthy Spanish walk when she puts her mind to it) but the rope + stick + both of us running combination to ask for it was just... SO MESSY. We never got anywhere and ended up frustrated on both ends, that's all I ever accomplished with this method. So I tried at liberty, just with my snapping fingers cue, and WELL THAT WORKED MUCH BETTER ALL OF A SUDDEN. It took a bit of asking for a few steps of Spanish walk - trotting while using my cue - rinse repeat until she found the right answer of throwing a leg up at the trot, but the second she figured it out and got her treat for it, I could get her to repeat that and improve it, fully at liberty, until we were getting a few decent strides of Spanish trot in less than a week. And I never had to touch any part of her in any way to get there. INCREDIBLE. Many thanks, honestly. (That was a bit of a rant, but our approach as humans to teaching / training horses is something I've gotten very passionate about and your video resonated with me a lot, so..! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Thank you very much for sharing all of your thoughts and taking the time to write your post.

[@katyratyra]

Loved it. It seems to be such common sense to use positive reinforcement, so your horse has that motivation. I hope more and more people learn how to use it and enhance their relationship with their horse.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Thank you

[@jackiebraun5479]

Enjoyed your explanation regarding treating as an incentive

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Glad it was helpful!

[@robertshrewsbury2891]

I like the idea of sorting whether you are actually training your horse to stay away from or with you.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Thanks

[@tanyap9678]

Great video! also, your horse is hilarious and absolutley stunning!

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Thank you

[@lovettaquilts]

2 in the background were very entertaining.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Lol yup

[@AlmaVidaHorseRanch]

What!!! I didn't know you were also a full time nurse! You're a badass. I love that you can prove to everyone that you can have a work/life balance AND do amazing things with horses. It really isnt as time consuming, it has a lot to do with connection 💚

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Its definitely challenging but worth it

[@nancyk3615]

I enjoyed your liberty course this spring. I learned how to build a closer partnership with my horses. I was able to better understand the principals of positive reinforcement and how to apply them. It really worked when I trim their feet; I mostly now just ground tie when I'm doing that. It has also helped with working with my dogs too! Your horses were really having a grand old time in the paddock behind you, ha!

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Lol yes they sure were

[@noramosher1001]

Good demonstration and much food for thought, The wild ones in the background are great to watch too. Thanks!

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Lol yes they are wild

[@charlenesterken2604]

Great tips ,i get my filly back from saddle training ,she has been gone 5 months so now i want to build that strong bond with her with liberty. Your tips will be helpful

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

How exciting

[@meganpahl3612]

I agree with you and actually have the exact same situation too:) Working with horse my whole life but bought an arab mare about a year ago that is very intelligent and very loving but even more spoiled. I am trying to do her training but finding it hard to un-spoil her. She has days where she could care less where I am touching and is very comfortable with pets and snuggles but during the same day, she will pin those ears and swing her head. Pretty snotty right? My question is How can I still reward for training moves with treats but still unspoil her? I do not correct my horses forcefully but with a calm and firm tone and a push in the face(not a pop) is they get snotty and in my space. She will do ANYthing for a bite of carrot though so I do want to reward

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

We teach passive leadership and a lot of different pieces for positive reinforcement to help ensure horses don't become a cookie monster. harmonyhorsemanshipacademy.org/p/minicoursebundle-3 I recommend checking out our mini course bundle, it'll really help

[@1sacoyle]

Watched this video and then went out to work with my 18 yr. Haflinger gelding I've own for 8 mo. Pumpkin is an eating machine. There is barely a stubble of grass left in the yard, but he is determine to eat every last piece he can find. For his treat I have a pocket full of pelleted feed which he loves. He got pretty good at following me around in between 'grazing'. It was starting to get dark & cold so I cut the session short. Now I have a better idea having watched your video of how to go about liberty training.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

I'm glad it helped!

[@blossomsavage6687]

I've watched other Liberty videos and I agree with your method the best. Because my horse does get nervous when I pick up a dressage whip. He responds very well to touch and voices instructions and reward with cookies instead.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

I'm glad you've found what works for your horse

[@martylesnick2032]

GREAT JOB OF SHOWING US YOUR AMAZING ATTITUDE AND TRAINING SKILLS. THAT FELLOW SHOULD WATCH HOW YOU TOOK YOUR WONDERFUL OLDER PALOMINO THAT YOU TOOK TO NEW YORK CITY. SO COOL AND CUTE. WE HAVE A SAYING ABOUT OUR 2 YEAR OLD AMERICAN SPANIEL DRAKE. HIS MOTTO IS "WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME". SO YES THE HORSE CAN SAY "YES THAT TREAT TASTES SO SO GOOD THAT'S WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME. I LIKE HANGING WITH YOU." Susan

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Thank you... definitely horses like a pay cheque

[@janawagner6540]

This is awesome. Thank you. This filled in a few gaps for me.

[@hannahbersee8817]

Love this video! It’s super helpful to get an idea of how to start training my horse at liberty. Watching it I realized that I use “over” as a cue to move my horse’s entire body over, but I also use it as a cue to move his hip over. How confusing would it be to change the hip command to “hip” rather than “over”? Would it damage our relationship? Thank you!

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

It's OK to teach new words, just stay as consistent as you can

[@RossJacobs]

There is a lot to breakdown in this video. But I will mention just 2 thing. You don't see the contradiction of rationality of using treats to make a horse want to be with you and then using -r to make them not push on your for the treats? That approach creates a lack of clarity and causes anxiety. It is the nature of +r that it causes anxiety in horses when the treat is withheld. And it is the withholding of a treat that motivates a horse to search for answers and perform. We promise a horse a treat if they do X, but in the process of motivating them to do X we withhold the treat. That creates anxiety. Negative reinforcement also creates anxiety by the application of pressure. However, the amount of pressure and the type of pressure (physical or emotional) is entirely under moment to moment control of the trainer. Which means the trainer can adjust the pressure/feel to best suit the horse in an instant to keep the anxiety at a minimum. You can't do this with +r. The anxiety a horse feels with +r is entirely up the degree of desperation a horse feels for the treat/reward. It can't be modified in a split second by the trainer. Secondly, horses live in a world of -r. It's how they interact with each other and their environment. It's what they understand from birth and they are okay with it. With horses, even best friends communicate using -r and remain best friends because of the clarity -r provides when horses use it on each other. Your assumption that a horse would not choose to work with a trainer who uses -r methodology is not true. In fact, in my many years experience the best relationships people have with horses have been based on -r trainer. It is very rare to see horses that have had a lot of +r training that carry feelings of okay-ness in their work. When done badly -r training is horrible and verges on abuse. But when done well, it provides the greatest potential for the best relationship and performance. On the other hand, I believe even done well +r is problematic and is best done in special cases and for a specific purpose (eg, abused horses that are severely shutdown). Cheers

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Well I use a lot of positive reinforcement with a lot of different horses and the only trainer at the Thoroughbred makeover to have eight horses all makes the top three so I must be doing something right combined with the Mustangs that I also trained and I'm also a champion and Reserve Champion in. I disagree that using positive reinforcement creates anxiety. There has been a lot of research to show how it increases motivation. And I also argue the point that horses are born with positive reinforcement. A lot of their life is driven by food. If they can push another horse off of a pile of food then they get to have that food. Or if they can defend their herd and their buddy then they get to groom with their buddy or have sex with their buddy. So positive reinforcement is part of their life as well.

[@RossJacobs]

@@HarmonyHorsemanship thanks for your reply. Firstly, it is not true that +r is a low-stress approach. The research shows +r is a low stress approach is incredibly poor and not deserving of publication in good peer reviewed journals. It does result in high level so motivation and that is because of the stress caused by withholding treats. It is not the treat that motivates a horse to search for answers, it is when the treat is withheld. It's like gambling behaviour. If a gambler is rewarded every time he pulled the handle on a slot machine (we call them pokie machines in Australia), then the quickly stop playing. But the intermittent reward of slot machines creates enough stress to keep the player playing. This is how clicker training works. In addition, the level of stress a horse experiences is not under the control of the human. It is entirely up to how desperate a horse feels for the treat. In contrast, using -r the pressure/feel can be adjusted moment to moment to keep the stress low while maintaining a horse's motivation to search. I could go on because it is a big topic, but I know you get what I am saying. As you say food is a great motivator of behaviour. But it is not stress free. In addition, no +r techniques I know about are very effective without some degree of -r adding to the mix. For eg, in your comment you mention a horse pushing another horse off the food in order to eat. But the horse uses pressure to move the other horse. It does not offer something else that is tastier to motivate the horse to move away from the food. It uses pressure because that what horses understand and that's how they operate. When a foal is first looking for the teat, the dam uses her nose to push the foal towards the udder. She uses physical pressure. It seems nowadays that stress has become a dirty work. But it is how horses operate to change behaviour and as long as the stress is just enough to motivate a change of thought and then it is over, it helps build better relationships. When a horse experiences trouble and we help them solve it and feel better, it is an opportunity to expand the bubble of trust and confidence they have in following our idea. Stress or anxiety is what motivates changes in behaviour whether stress from -r or +r training. Without some degree of stress a horse has no reason to think that what they are doing/thinking is not what they should keep doing/thinking.

[@lanamyers_101]

I tend to use positive reinforcement, but in away I don’t use scratches and treats like when I do liberty circles sometimes I’ll call her in and give her a treat but sometimes I’ll just let her rest by me as a reward and to call her in I don’t back up cause it’s negative reinforcement in my eyes so I just whistle 😊 it has always worked best for me, and yeah I would do scratches instead of treats but I would have 3 hour sessions then as my horse needs a lot to be satisfied 😂 great vid 👍❤️

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Yes lots of different rewards :)

[@lauraalbertson7821]

I agree completely! You just are going with each other’s flow . Love that you just use your Hand to guide . I was wondering about that . I have a new Weanling coming in 2 weeks 🥳 so exciting ! Anyway, I also wondered about using treats . What type of treat do you recommend for a 4 month old Colt ? Gypsy Vanner Cross Paint 💜🐴💜 Laura from California 🇺🇸

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Thanks... I use Fibre nuggets as treats. Healthy and affordable.

[@msamberscabinkindergarten4648]

Impressive. I’m working a 13 year old, reinventing and building trust. She was abused….I’ve been doing treats even though they say not to but I just know it works better.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Treats definitely help when used correctly

[@rosalindpaterson2043]

u r a genius; Im going to continue with the carrot rewards. Maybe you might help me. I note that Shiny love a back scratch. My OTT has the same kicking reaction as Shiney but also pins ears back and seems quite disturbed to any grooming on his back in the loins area. I feel like we need to work through it so that he trusts that all I am doing is grooming dust away. I also noticed when I looked at his eyes that they were pulsating and becoming smaller in his eye-socket. What is that all about. I found it rather alarming. His eyeballs became smaller and seemed to be retracting. I've never seen that before. I have noticed in general that his intense staring expression around the eye has changed and softened in the last 4 weeks since he has not experienced any pain from confining harness such as noseband, martingale, spurs or whips, and that persuasion is used when he sometimes appears doubtful or unwilling to go forward when on trail, or feeling like he wants to remain at the end of the arena that is closest to his yard....; he is becoming more an more easily persuaded and his backing up seems much less associated with anxiety. He trusts that Im listening I believe. eg when his shoes were removed I listened to his foot-soreness and led him about on grass on walks inst4end of riding for a week.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Whenever I hear of a horse being sensitive to groom the first thing I think of is ulcers or pain and getting anything physical ruled out.

[@donprohaska2917]

Enjoyed this excellent video. What is the exact spelling of the URL of your website?

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Harmonyhorsemanship.com

[@msmccorm1]

Off subject: What I really need to know is where you get your energy from. I am a nurse too and everyone used to think that I had so much energy. The truth is I was just saving all my energy for work, now that I am going out to work with my horse regularly, and trying to be somewhat responsible in my private life, they are founding out the truth - I'm exhausted. They say as a nurse it is important to have outside interests to keep you sane but, they do not say where to find the energy to do those things.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

I Am Naturally this way.... lots of drive... but I try to eat well and get a good night's sleep

[@Catydid1996]

I enjoyed watching this, thank you for the education. :D

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Glad you liked it

[@maimeflyte699]

Interesting to learn that it doesn’t take as long as I thought to be productive at liberty.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Yes it can be easy

[@MaxNafeHorsemanship]

I agree with most, but I find it goes a lot faster if I start (and safer) with the horse on-line. As for the treats...LOL...I have fed treats to my horses for many years and have never even felt teeth or been "mugged". It's not what you do, it's how you do it and food is always a motivator no matter the species. There are rules, and they must have manners. The treat comes to the horse, the horse does NOT come to the treat. I wouldn't encourage less experienced people to try anything without a lead on. Depending on the horse, it can be dangerous or result in no progress. Speaking from experience with one of my horses, early on she threatened to kick me and refused to do anything she was asked to do including the things she knew.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

The no tools approach is an eye opener for sure... but definitely wise to have an instructor help

[@MaxNafeHorsemanship]

@@HarmonyHorsemanship Problem with that is I AM the instructor. Locally, I can't find anyone that knows more than me and I don't think I know a lot.

[@sarahnystrom8517]

Have you ever heard of caroline beste? She’s great.

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

I haven't

[@300tdavis]

Once you master Carolyn Resnick’s (she is the pioneer of Liberty and coined the term) Waterhole Rituals (the only true liberty training where the horse can choose to stay) the next step would be to learn Caroline Beste’s Tao of Horsemanship training of your horse from the ground into the saddle (or bareback pad). Both teach the language of Equus and have holistic principals of using energy work.

[@sarahnystrom8517]

@@300tdavis hey. Caroline actually was one of the very first people who started using the word connection back in the day. Now a days people use those words as bait. To get people to believe that there way is the best way. Caroline knows the best way.

[@300tdavis]

@@sarahnystrom8517 Agreed. Caroline Beste is the best trainer/educator I've seen yet...and I've pretty much watched them all!

[@sarahnystrom8517]

@@300tdavis yay! Me too! I’m apart of her program and it’s the beste!

[@boblenmo]

I really learned a lot form your videos already but so far i was too afraid to try Training at liberty. I will try this soon. Does anyone have a recommendation for a dog Training Channel similar to this?

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

Best of luck

[@hannahmarran6905]

Boblenmo Ceaser Milan is very good for dog training.

[@Natureoutdoorsyquest]

I thought you said that horses do not understand verbal commands? Do they or do they not based on your own experience. Just curious about that point!

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

They can learn specific words if you teach them

[@Natureoutdoorsyquest]

@@HarmonyHorsemanship I see. Thank you for the reply. I really appreciate it.

[@horselover650]

Really making sure we no she’s a multiple multiple multiple champion with several different things........ smart

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

:)

[@AnastasiaTheCat24]

Why don’t this video have more views

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

I'm not sure, please share

[@MissDewdropDrop]

Thank you! :)

[@HarmonyHorsemanship]

:)