N.T. Wright Reviews Heiser and The Unseen Realm

Welcome to another Episode of Ring Them Bells
During our Last Interview with N.T. Wright I was determined to discuss Heiser and the Divine Council Worldview with Tom. I have heard hints of this ion Wrights work but he never focused on it as a key point in the narrative like Heiser.
Now we hear firsthand from Wright about the Unseen Realm and the answer just might surprise you!
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Link to unseen realm documentary- • The Unseen Realm
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@NTWrightOnline @DRMSH @bibleproject @ReubenEvans

[@ringthembells143]

Thanks for watching- Here is the Full Interview. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIuXf2SmqbqUaMksi=3rTreHZbPoO9hC-M

[@patrickbarnes9874]

I enjoyed the video but am confused about what is supposed to be surprising about it. It was mentioned a few times how surprising this was going to be but he seemed to say just what I would expect someone knowledgeable in the Divine Council worldview to say. Is that what the video is referring to in saying it could be surprising? Is it not something he said that was surprising but the fact that Wright supports the view that's surprising?

[@daneumurian5466]

Austin Farrer was a close friend of CS Lewis. One of my songs inspired by my thesis on Farrer says: "When we say there's a way To the living God And say Jesus is the One, We're not picking a color from the rainbow; We're looking at the sun...."

[@Brad-pt3of]

I loved listening to Dr Heiser he was one of my favorite people. He is truly missed

[@feeble_stirrings]

Highly recommend the podcast "The Lord of Spirits" for similar themes!

[@ringthembells143]

Same ❤️✅🔔

[@77brucewayne]

@@reverendterminatoryeah

[@stevenrivard9246]

​@@ringthembells143 Can I ask you a question about Heiser's view?

[@vipe650r]

Yes. Amen. And I love hearing and sitting on the two men’s work and insights intersecting and interacting.

[@n5cbi]

I hope by the time I've seen this, Wright will have read The Unseen Realm. I'm actually quite surprised he was so unfamiliar with it. He would benefit from Heiser's full treatment.

[@nosretep1960]

I enjoyed Heiser's insights regarding ancient texts from a secular view, had considerable correspondence @20 years ago. His admission that he knew biblical cosmology, yet rejected it so he could indulge in the sci-fi delusion is very telling.

[@Patcannistan]

⁠@@nosretep1960I’m unclear as to what you mean in your last sentence; could you elaborate?

[@Patcannistan]

Would he? I find it encouraging that they’ve both reached the same conclusions independently. How important is the cross pollination of ideas when a clear understanding of the original text is what matters?

[@nosretep1960]

I don't remember where in one of his presentations, could be simultaneously to an illustrated model of the biblical cosmology view, he elaborated on sci-fi being THE reason he rejected it. He authored quite a bit of sci-fi. I'm pretty sure there was nothing financial about it, just worldview.

[@ravissary79]

​@@nosretep1960I've been following Heisers work for many years now but I've never heard him say he disbelieved the Bible because of science fiction. Are these labels you're attaching to what he said? If anything this is precisely the OPPOSITE of Heisers' position. He got famous because he was a frequent guest on paranormal and radio ufo shows because he was a well versed DEBUNKER of people like Zechariah Sitchen.

[@suzannahbrandt2632]

I discovered The Unseen Realm and Dr Michael Heiser a few months ago and honestly I can’t get enough. I have read all of his books and started listening to his Podcasts in order from the beginning. I feel as though the Veil has been lifted from my eyes and so many things make so much more sense now. I now read the Bible through a whole new light. I am saddened that Dr Heiser has passed on and we won’t get any more teachings from him, but am so grateful that he left us with so much information!

[@DA-yd2ny]

Same here. I had a faint idea that the world was very different at pre-flood times….. but when God introduced me to Dr Heiser it was like I was hit by nuclear bomb of truth and my eyes got opened a bit more to see the reality of God and his character.

[@robertpillowjr.1672]

Great video! Although, I'm quite surprised that Mr. Wright has never heard of Dr. Heiser or the Unseen Realm. I really miss Dr. Heiser. Thankfully he left us with a treasure trove of his work!

[@ringthembells143]

Thank you so much! Wright has mainly been focused on Paul and the NT in his work, although he is very balanced in his approach with the Hebrew Scriptures. Heiser had more of a Hebrew Scriptures focus to his study, and so many immediately falsely labeled Heiser as fringe, so the disconnect seems reasonable. That’s why I was so pumped to make the introduction thanks for watching and for commenting💯✅🔔

[@bradevers8718]

Dr. Wright does so many interviews that it's impossible for him to remember them all. Dr. Heiser interviewed Wright in episode 131 of the Naked Bible Podcast

[@ringthembells143]

@@bradevers8718 🔔✅❤️

[@blvckmagik]

Thank you...and also they spoke together with something Google did

[@jasonleveck8546]

Doc Heiser changed my faith life quite literally, my friend. Sent me on a trajectory and closer relationship with God, than I ever had. He was a good teacher!

[@Codester91670]

Michael Heiser and Chuck Missler were two legends that N.T. Wright needs to read on. Love Heiser's interpretation.

[@ringthembells143]

Hoping this session inspired NT and I plan to reach out to see if he would consider fully reviewing the book with me one day

[@mptkwakernaak3183]

Yep, Learned so much

[@tafttibbs]

You are absolutely 💯 right on Chuck and Michael. Both legends.God blessed us for being handed down this information

[@landonfunk6970]

I have been going through and listening to all of Michael heiser podcast for the last year in my studies it has increased my knowledge of the Bible and the life of Christ old and New Testament x 10. In the past i have read thruogh the old Testament 5 times and the New Testament 25 times this study on his podcast brings the whole Bible from beginning to end together with great 2nd Temple and first century jewish Christian world views, good luck to all believers who follow this path forwards you won't be disappointed. God Bless you !

[@ringthembells143]

Love this!!!

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Heiser is one of my favorite Christian scholars. I was terribly sad that he passed so young.

[@bradhicks5558]

The late Michael Heiser's conclusions do not agree with N.T. Wright's about the evil gods and powers. Heiser would say that they are not reconciled under Christ in any way, rather, they are eternally doomed.

[@ringthembells143]

I love that they agree and also have different conclusions, each with scriptural backing ❤️🔔✅

[@reubenoni]

N T Wright is wrong on this point. Please see Isaiah 24:21-22 "It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished" (NKJV). Also Revelation 20 says Satan shall be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Isaiah 24:21-22 says Satan's crew "the host of exalted ones" shall be gathered in the pit also. This is what reconciliation is going to mean for the "sons of God" referred to my Heiser.

[@ringthembells143]

@@reubenoni let me help you unpack your position that is giving you unwarranted certainty about cosmic issues. First let’s start with humans. Our Lord Jesus in Matthew 13 specifies very clearly that we as humans will never know proper judgment in between good and evil. Meaning we can’t separate who’s going to make it into the kingdom and who is not going to make it into the kingdom. we will be wrong in our judgment to decide the eternal fate of anyone. This truth stretches past humanity and into the divine realm. Were you there when God made the universe and told the stars where to hang? Did you help God hold back the waters and create the garden of Eden? The answer is no. So you can have an opinion, even an estimated guess that is dressed with humility. But that’s about it… Other than EVIL, SIN, DEATH and the Satan there is no point where the Bible is ever giving you certainty of anyone’s specific final judgment. The powers that God instituted to rule the nations will be redeemed under the power of the cross and resurrection. What does that mean? We will find out. Until then we have a bias of hope, because of Jesus. We are required to remain hopeful about What God is doing for all of the universe. I hope that makes sense, stick around and join our community. We need people like you!

[@bradhicks5558]

@@ringthembells143 Brother, please don’t accuse this commenter of being prideful and errant in his thinking. He is stating exactly what Michael Heiser attests to from scripture in his classic book, Unknown Realms. He is not personally judging the eternal destiny of the spiritual authorities and powers who rebelled against God in heaven and were cast out, he is properly quoting scripture.

[@ringthembells143]

@@bradhicks5558 please refer to my comment above for yourself as well ✌️🔔✅❤️

[@KingdomIsNow]

You should all check the book by Andrei Orlov on Jewish Mysticism, especially the chapter on Worthless Mysteries (of the Fallen Angels). It is fascinating. You will not be able to put the book down. His trail of thought is very similar to that of Heiser but presented in a different way. Both are eye openers. The Unseen Realm should be compared to and studied alongside the Early Church commentaries and homilies. We cannot dismiss Scripture and the original Apostolic Tradition Jesus taught his original apostles. I am currently revisiting the Unseen Realm. I cannot deny that it greatly assists Christians to further understand how God thinks and His Cosmology. The research of M. Heiser is remarkably astounding, and profoundly deep. He presents elements very few have ever discussed or thought about.

[@mattmcqueary8972]

Why are all his books like $100?

[@oakrootinnovations]

Which book are you referring to? After searching his books, it's not clear which one you're recommending. Thanks in advance!

[@niccoloaurelius1587]

What's the book title? I can't find it by searching. Thanks!

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Agreed. Heiser's work if phenom! He mailed me his PhD Dissertation on the Council of the Gods, and it just blew me out of the water! Tremendous thinker and explorer of the ancient Hebrew language and thought.

[@jimmyboy131]

@@mattmcqueary8972 They're not. They're all in the $15 to $25 range, according to the search I just did.

[@ahall3823]

Fantastic interview! Thanks to both of you.

[@redemption-leadership]

Two of my favourite scholars - thank you so much!

[@landman1560]

I would have loved to see Heiser and Wright have a conversation. That might have broken the internet.

[@ringthembells143]

💯❤️🔔

[@bradevers8718]

Episode 131 of the Naked Bible Podcast. They did chat there.

[@IndianaJoe0321]

Yes, ​@@bradevers8718, Dr. Heiser interviewed Wright in 2016 at a biblical studies conference in San Antonio. Very quickly, they begin discussing the atonement and both agree that one should NOT land on a singular view the atonement but, rather have a view that the atonement "is a multi-valent thing."

[@michaelhenderson6786]

@@bradevers8718 They did?? Why is Wright so unfamiliar with Heiser in that case? Kind of confusing 🤔

[@user-hx2tg5fd3s]

Will look for that podcast

[@rickhall517930]

lHeiser is a LEGEND.

[@projectdesign4675]

The only LEGENDS I know, walked in the "manifestation" of the Holy Spirit.....do you? Does He answer your prayers (and those you fellowship with)? Most of those that do or did are dead, some very recent (last 10-20 years).....the proof text and 'exegesis' that I hear often are thoughtful and well studied with "0" manifestation of the Holy Spirit! It might as well be pronounced and "exit Jesus". Quote as many scriptures as you can (elegantly even) but realise we are in a famine for the WORD of God!

[@robertpillowjr.1672]

Legend indeed! Dr. Heiser is one of the bigger influences that lead me to Christ. I'll never forget him!

[@robertpillowjr.1672]

​@@projectdesign4675Calm your nerves man. He's just expressing the respect and adoration that many of us feel for Dr. Heiser. He lead me to Christ! So stop chastising already. God Bless you. My the peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

[@rperk59]

@@projectdesign4675 I don’t think he meant legend, in the sense of super natural legend. Just a human who did a great job explaining the supernatural. I took a giant step forward after reading his books. he was a godly man, and so intelligent, but very down to earth and very humble. I miss his teaching very much. I know he’s enjoying heaven as we speak!

[@bobthomas1536]

@@projectdesign4675 no sure what you mean. Seems cryptic.

[@johnjenkins804]

I’m just working through Unseen Realm and learning a great deal. It has challenged many of my pre-suppositions and enlarged my understanding. NT Wright is always interesting and helpful too. What a great channel.

[@Kimberly-lx4qy]

He really didn’t address what Dr. Heiser was laying out. I have learned so much from Dr. heiser. He does a great job showing the spiritual powers/war in heaven when Christ was on the cross.

[@ringthembells143]

I agree we didn’t get to cover everything. But for the small moment of time that I had to bring this out I feel like we got some good coverage. I wish I could do a whole episode with him just on Heiser and the unseen realm. But I’m grateful for this moment and looking forward to what the future holds for more just like it. Cheers🔔✅❤️

[@DTraylor]

To me, it seemed he didn't want to let biblical truth invade his doctrine or theological view. For myself, Heiser lays it out clearly.

[@jasonleveck8546]

I truly appreciate the content and men on this podcast. It's simply superior and you all definitely have the right guests on this show! God bless and Praise be to God Almighty!!

[@BibleandaBicycle]

Bam! Another one knocked straight outta' the ball park! 👍God bless and shalom! ✌❤🙏

[@forthosewithearstohear6219]

Sorry, but as I have told you many times, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was the blind leading the blind. Repent, and learn what the truth of the Bible actually is.

[@jasonleveck8546]

@@forthosewithearstohear6219you should really try and explain your position. Everything Heiser ever taught, i've back checked and it's rock solid. It is what the WORD actually says, rather than some foolish opinion or false teaching.

[@BibleandaBicycle]

@@forthosewithearstohear6219 cast first stones do you? You should go wash your robes and pull that plank out of your eye. Why not share your superior knowledge of the Bible with all of the world as NT Wright and MH do and we will let the truth of such matters be self evident. Sir, your tongue has revealed the true nature of your heart.

[@forthosewithearstohear6219]

@@jasonleveck8546 ,...My position is as I stated, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was a false teacher and nothing more than the blind leading the blind. The problem is, the whole church is filled with people that think they are Christians when they are not. The fact is, there is no people more Biblically illiterate and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians. You are a perfect example of this. All the apostate churches fake christians absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they are deceived. Their favorite lines are, oh, you have a plank in your eye, who do you think you are to judge me. The truth is, those like you will only listen to those who have planks in both eyes. The scriptures below all apply to you. Repent! "Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Proverbs 15:10 KJV "This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing." Jeremiah 13:10 KJV "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return." Jeremiah 5:3 KJV

[@forthosewithearstohear6219]

@@BibleandaBicycle ,....Your reaction only confirms the truth I have spoken for your edification. Like your Godless, blind, lost, and deceived fathers, when anyone comes to you without a plank in their eye, you reject them as your Ignorant fathers did to Jesus. You will only accept and listen to those who have planks in both eyes like MH and nt wright. This all applies to you as well,.... @jasonleveck8546 ,...My position is as I stated, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was a false teacher and nothing more than the blind leading the blind. The problem is, the whole church is filled with people that think they are Christians when they are not. The fact is, there is no people more Biblically illiterate and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians. You are a perfect example of this. All the apostate churches fake christians absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they are deceived. Their favorite lines are, oh, you have a plank in your eye, who do you think you are to judge me. The truth is, those like you will only listen to those who have planks in both eyes. The scriptures below all apply to you. Repent! "Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Proverbs 15:10 KJV "This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing." Jeremiah 13:10 KJV "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return." Jeremiah 5:3 KJV

[@Hospody-Pomylui]

When your journey is complete we'll be here waiting for you ☦️

[@dorothyross9392]

I am so glad I found this channel. I celebrate you. I am trying to write a story with people entering into the supernatural Biblical world view.

[@Alden99669]

Love your show! You shouldn’t be asking questions that your guests haven’t heard of. How is it possible that Tom hasn’t heard of Heiser? Please send him Heiser’s book.

[@tkoman2465]

He was interviewed by Mike some time ago actually. He just hasn't read Unseen Realm

[@1allspub]

I do hope NT Wright reads Unseen Realm.

[@Blackbear23929]

Unseen realm is a must read It opened a veil for me

[@doulos77]

same

[@PurplKingdom]

My dear brother. You are doing a wonderful job. I feel the need, to keep praying for your mission. Be smart stay strong and God bless. A mighty warrior for God's Kingdom

[@ringthembells143]

THANK YOU!!! I receive this in the name of Jesus. 🙏🏻

[@MomToEight]

Amazing interview! Thanks again for your hard work. I've already pre-ordered the book and audiobook.

[@ringthembells143]

Awesome. Hoping to get the other author Michael Bird on as well. Expect more content from this book for sure✅🔔❤️

[@Gutslinger]

My first time hearing of J.T Wright and this channel. I've only recently been watching a handful of Michael Heiser's videos, stream interviews, and a few of his podcast episodes. There've been a few things I heard Heiser say that I think I was in disagreement with, though I cannot now remember whst. But the overall topic about the Elohim and the heavenly council has been stirring my interest. Especially after seeing a few of those verses Heiser points out. Though as a layman, I have to say I get mentally fatigued trying to comprehend many of his talking points pver the course of 20-30 minutes.

[@3mmm777]

Wonderful. I dedicated our humble podcast to the work of late Dr. Heiser. He inspired all of us on the channel to think differently, in a deeper and Ancient Near East context, showing us that true biblical theology is deeply supernatural!

[@forthosewithearstohear6219]

michael heiser was a 100% fraud. He was not a man of God, he was a Biblically illiterate man of the Godless world. Repent!

[@Jesus3ITrustinThee]

Wonderful Video! Thank you both for the inspiration. All for the glory of God. Come Lord Jesus, pour forth your Spirit, create in us your creation, and renew the face of the earth! Amen.

[@ringthembells143]

Thank you so much 🔔✅❤️

[@BentIronBins]

Though I’m interested in knowing about the unseen realm i also think no one really knows or understands what it is like or what exists there. We will know soon enough, it will be wonderous if of course we are saved. I pray every day that he finds me worthy 🙏

[@ringthembells143]

You are more than worthy and that was proven both on the cross and at the Resurrection. God looks For allegiance not certainty. You seem to have allegiance in spades trust that you are worthy and welcome in the kingdom of God!❤️🔔✅

[@BentIronBins]

@@ringthembells143 why thank you i appreciate the kind words i try not to judge or get mean and i always look forward to new views on matters because we are all on a voyage of learning. Have a wonderful day.

[@rikvonmn]

I think not understanding this forgotten and (running) theme throughout the entire scripture is something that has SERIOUSLY held the church back from accomplishing and being what we are really supposed to be...

[@jackmckee8196]

This interaction is gold bro, thanks so much, didnt think id ever get to hear NT interact with Heiser’s message. Two of my favorite modern thinkers.

[@ringthembells143]

You are most welcome!!!

[@Youtuube304s]

Its quite clear in the Bible that God acknowledges other gods. Thats why he mentions getting justice on the gods of Egypt. The plauges are actually represented by egyptian gods. The frogs? There is actually an egyptian goddess with a frog head, etc. Jeremiah 46:25, Exodus 12:12, Numbers 33:4

[@bradallen1511]

Great interview.

[@ringthembells143]

Thanks!!!

[@Ann-rf8fi]

There is nothing more likely to cause endless debates than these sorts of topics. Judgement is always God’s no matter the arguments. Blessings to fellow believers

[@treewalker1070]

You guys need to check out the Lord of Spirits podcast on Ancient Faith channel, where two Orthodox priests talk about Eastern Orthodox teachings on this subject.

[@ringthembells143]

Thanks, I’ve heard of them and hope to check them out ✅🔔

[@stevensteven8719]

Truth to power....

[@ringthembells143]

Amen!!!

[@stevenjackiekuhn9011]

I’m new to your show, however, I really enjoyed this and I think that you handled it very well.

[@ringthembells143]

Thank you for that. Hope you stick around✅❤️🔔

[@ThembaMaselane]

Dr Wright's response exposes his unfirmiality with Dr Heiser's theses comprehensively.

[@JP-kx2qv]

00These 72 rebellious elohims from the council will be replaced by us and not redeemed..

[@SaltandLight-yp6tu]

You have spoken unbiblical nonsense like MH did. Repent!

[@danielg7868]

Dr. Heiser and the unseen realm has really opened my eyes to the Scriptures. It's almost like I read the Bible 2D and after the unseen realm I read it in 3D.

[@chrisDeLano777]

Great job, guys. I've had multiple undeniable encounters w/Reptilian hybrids living among us. We are in the last hours (Dan 2:43-44; Matt 24:7).

[@christiantompkins6423]

What kind of encounters?

[@LeeAdams-kj2tr]

Amen to Mr. Wright. It does not matter what he has read. He nailed the truth. Heiser is great and God use him. But the true Church will do exactly what Wright said to do . If we need to take up the sword we will have Him in front of us behind us and on our flanks. No King but King Jesus.

[@a.j.beltran4795]

A great tandem to Heiser's Unseem Realm are the books by Barnshouse "The Invisible War", Thieme's "Angelic Conflict" and Bob Luginbill's "Satanic Rebellion". I easily picked up the divine council view because of them.

[@ClintByars]

The demons have been reconciled? He triumphed over them and stripped them of authority, that doesn’t sound like reconciliation.

[@bobs8005]

I don’t think Wright was saying that he is saying it’s all subjected and dethroned 9:52

[@ClintByars]

@@bobs8005 I’m pretty sure he says that all those spiritual beings and authorities have been reconciled. I agree with you in regard to that’s what happened, but it doesn’t sound like what Wright is saying.

[@bobs8005]

@@ClintByars I’ve listened to a lot of Wright and he gets criticism for being a bit verbose so it does take a couple times relistening to him at times. I’ll replay it as well

[@MichaelDBiggs]

I agree, Clint, those fallen elohim will not be reconciled. Jude 1;6, 2Peter 2;4 and Ephesians 6;12, among other passages, refer to the fate of these spiritual principalities.

[@lw6138]

The documentary The Unseen Realm is online. He used primarily canonical scripture. It's worth learning. There is a world above that influences the world below.

[@ibaniyejeremiah1242]

Heiser has had N.T Wright on his podcast... one of the interviews. Wright and every one should read Heiser's works.

[@ringthembells143]

I have yet to listen to the podcast but I believe it was at a conference, I wish I had known before the interview as I would have brought it up. it is a mission of this channel to help get Heiser’s work out into the mainstream scholarly world and the world of churchianity

[@johncassidy3071]

What Wright says here backs up what Heiser repeatedly said about his own work. He said 1) nothing he teaches about scripture is novel to him, and 2) he is only popularizing what is discussed in Biblical scholarship. Thus, it should not be surprising that Wright already knows this stuff even if he can't recall Dr. Heiser, who informed we laymen of these things.

[@B.A.Pilgrim]

Heiser didn't popularise it, though. I'd never heard of Mike, but knew that there are angels- some of them fallen and refered to as gods by Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans. Paul says that Jesus is the name above all names. Pagan Rome converted to Christianity over a number of centuries. In the latter days we live in, it has become obvious that the old gods are making a come back, but, in reality, Jesus name remains above them

[@R9500pro1]

Bad logic, Pilgrim. To popularize something means to make it generally accepted and liked. Your knowing beforehand about the Divine Council does not mean Heiser did not make it generally accepted and like by a large population of people.

[@johncassidy3071]

@R9500pro1 Bad reading skills. Plus, there is also this meaning of the word "popularize ": "make (something technical, scientific, or academic) accessible or interesting to the general public by presenting it in a readily understandable form." So your stipulation to support your misreading also fails.

[@johncassidy3071]

@B.A.Pilgrim Entirely irrelevant to my point or even the word "popularize", as in "make known to laymen".

[@wendyhoffman9472]

How am i supposed to pay for these things? Literally, what do i need to say to help our team? What words, specifically? I want to be used in this battle

[@ringthembells143]

This means so much to me. God is faithful and taking care of this ministry and for now we ask that you please continue to pray and share the content on other platforms if possible. Things may change and I’m hoping to get RTB established as a Non profit so we can allow people to join in support of they feel led to. Stay Tuned The Beginning is Near ❤️🔔✅

[@scottatutube1]

The idea from Col 1:18 that previously disloyal spiritual beings will be reconciled is interesting - the text certainly seems to point that way. It is, like many other issues in scripture, to be held in tension with other scriptures referenced in the OT of judgment for these disloyal spiritual beings. God will sort it out. Just like passages that speak of Israel being judged and discarded and yet other promises of their future near total salvation.

[@ringthembells143]

It’s in that tension that we find the two arrows pointing us towards wisdom and truth

[@kalebkendall4786]

@@ringthembells143 I'm sorry, but wisdom in blatant contradictions?

[@NdxtremePro]

I like N.T. Wright, but one of his weaknesses is a reliance on strictly the Bible from the time period of Jesus. If he has read and taken seriously other writings from that time, the Apocryphal books as we call them, such as 1st Enoch and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs for instance, he would have a more clear idea of how the Israelites of the time though about gods/sons of gods/angels/divine beings. If anyone is interested, "Apocrypha" by Fr. Stephen De Young gives an introduction to these texts, as well as how the Early Church and later the Eastern Orthodox have viewed and used these texts. Also, if the divine council is of interest to you, a fuller picture is presented in the Lord of Spirits podcast, host by Fr. Stephen De Young and Fr. Stephen Damack, about the spiritual aspects of the Christian Faith. De Young is an Old Testament Bible Scholar, with a focus on the Second Temple Judaism period.

[@ArmyScoutMom]

Ndxtremer thank you

[@ringthembells143]

The Bible is the ONLY INSPIRED text ✅✅✅✅

[@NdxtremePro]

@@ringthembells143 To say that it to say that God only ever worked in the lives of the Israelites, which the Bible directly contradicts. In the OT, the Israelites are told not to bother this group because they were doing God's work and had been given that land by God. In the New Testament, we are told that the very Creation itself points to the Glory of God. Everything is a direct Creation of God, and thus is God inspire, and you are worried about writing.

[@ringthembells143]

@@NdxtremePro however… God chose specifically to speak through a specific text and a specific people group. I hope I’m being specific enough. 🔔❤️✅ Because Jesus was very specific about what storyline and what people group he came to fill Full. This is the Jewish narrative of the TANAKH. This Jesus who was crucified and Risen as king of the world the only begotten son of God our Father came from this Jewish text specifically.

[@NdxtremePro]

@@ringthembells143 He didn't come from the Jewish text, He came from God. Don't make the Bible your God. It is an idol in that case.

[@cvent8454]

Listening to Dr. Wright, it sounds as if he is speaking to his own interpretation of these Scripture passages and theological issues without truly engaging Dr. Heiser's interpretations. I never heard him answer the question in a satisfying way. I respect Dr. Wright but I'm not even sure he realizes that he sidestepped the issue. I don't doubt supernatural powers. How can anyone read the Bible and think that is beyond my comprehension. I must admit I had hoped for more in this discussion.

[@jonathani1]

Consider the readers of Hebrew, the Jews. They have a very satisfying explanation, not bordering on blasphemy.

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Entirely agreed. Wright is fudgin it.

[@godslittleman5451]

Heisser’s interpretation of Matt 16 and the keys to the kingdom of heaven passage is very, very compelling.

[@peterandjoycevanbreemen600]

❤❤

[@kinusganyani8694]

I never thought I would see Shawn’s dad in a theology video.

[@bnjmnwst]

Dr. Heiser interviewed Dr. Wright on a couple of occasions and presented some of his ideas to him. I wonder if he remembers that. I'm sure he's a lightning rod for many interviewers and people who want to get his opinion on various things.

[@FAITHFULANDPROUD2GOD]

Is this the Naked Bible pod cast you told me to watch? When I spoke of Dr. Michael Heiser being the best.

[@ringthembells143]

Someone else may have referred you to a specific naked Bible podcast. I did not. But I do love that podcast and hope you enjoy this video.✅🔔❤️

[@AAROTheRedeemed]

The unseen realm is soooo good

[@ringthembells143]

MY FAV!!!

[@patrickmcdonald8513]

I dig the Native American flute music. Word, cuz.

[@hunterharrison8635]

What's the story between the host's eye tattoo? First time viewer

[@Robert_L_Peters]

Is Dr. Wright ever going to do new episodes of 'Ask NT Wright Anything'?

[@ringthembells143]

I don’t think so 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Robert_L_Peters]

@@ringthembells143 they keep replaying old episodes. Why bother, if there won't be new episodes, and the whole catalog is available?

[@claytonbigsby]

Monotheism in the Old Testament? Whose is the Commander of the Lord's army who told Joshua to take his shoes off because he was standing on Holy ground?

[@albusai]

Jesus

[@ringthembells143]

Monotheism means something different to the Jews and I though Tim expressed that well

[@claytonbigsby]

@@albusai exactly- you win the prize eternal life

[@a.samuels6418]

If all evil ceased when Jesus came, why is the world so evil? Why are nations and governments so evil? Why is abortion/child sacrifice so prevalent all over the world? What about false religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam etc. No more idolatry? Wars and destruction and hatred are at an all- time high. How come?

[@tedroybal5231]

1 John 5:19, "We know that we are from God, and* the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."

[@MichaelWilliams-eq4kt]

Jesus disarmed the ruling powers on the cross but He did not immediately replace them (though he rightfully could have). He sent His disciples out into the world to bring in the inheritance He acquired in defeating death. We are being trained in righteousness so as to replace the wicked powers and principalities even as we bring in the inheritance Jesus died to gain.

[@davidwilkins5932]

The entire history of this world, and humanity, is a story that leads to our ultimate redemption. We and the world are in a fallen state, and WE aren’t going to “work our way out of it”. Nowhere in Scripture is that kind of trajectory indicated; in fact, quite the opposite. The story ends with the physical return of Christ, the transformation of the Church, and the upcoming eternal state. It’s bold and dramatic stuff. And yes, it’s supernatural, a concept that seems to cause many of us to cringe, unfortunately. It’s not something that’s going to be “hammered into shape” by our own efforts.

[@billgreenman35]

Wright states that these supernatural beings "sons of God" will be reconciled to God in the end. Did he give a text to support that statement?

[@arc6731]

Exactly !

[@uwekonnigsstaddt524]

Acts 17:11

[@ringthembells143]

I’ll go back and listen. But I believe it was Colossians 1:18 through 20

[@vedinthorn]

If that's the case, then we should all be universalists, but I am not because I think part of the reconciliation is the removal from heaven and earth those things which belong in the lake of fire.

[@erinvie]

Heiser covers this extensively in his book Angels, no 'reconciliation' did not mean to the New Testament authors restoration or salvation for spiritual enemy elohim. He probably covers it in his book Demons as well but I have not finished that book yet.

[@tobycoxon8138]

You should do a video on the basics of the New Perspective on Paul. I love NT Wright, but bring him up around a certain Reformed crowd (my background), and words like Heretic pretty quickly surface

[@ringthembells143]

If you’re not being called a heretic by certain reformed evangelical crowds. You are not faithfully following Jesus💯🔔❤️

[@tobycoxon8138]

@@ringthembells143 Mike Heiser, Tim Mackie, and NT Wright really were responsible for saving my faith, or the Spirit through them. Then it gets difficult seeing people who I previously considered authoritative calling them Heretics. And as I don't read Hebrew/Greek, and haven't studied the historical context to their level of depth, it gets difficult when it comes to such a contextual but crucial issue such as the NPP

[@sallyeaux]

@@tobycoxon8138 I'm curious, who is/are calling these 3 men heretics?

[@tobycoxon8138]

@@sallyeaux John Piper, RC Sproul, John MacArthur et al

[@lolersauresrex8837]

@@ringthembells143I think I just fell in love with you

[@billiamnotbob]

I grew up in the Roman church but I wasn't serious about it. In fact, I left religion in early adulthood and came back later in life. I think that's why I was Open to Dr. Heiser and his Divine Council worldview. It made sense. I wasn't burdened by years of certain doctrines, even considering I was saved about 27 years ago. Honestly, I'm not a fan of Wright. I find that many people are unwilling to even think about the supernatural, not to mention non-canonical books. It's sad really as they are missing out on so much. also Heiser's saying we need to have the 1st century Jews in our heads. Excellent!

[@Drinkphyre]

if NT Wright hasn't read The Unseen Realm, then how can he have a logical argument against it?

[@ringthembells143]

He didn’t argue against it 👀

[@janekustner1658]

I am disappoited that Tom Wright had not read Michael Heiser's full arguement before discussing it. Why reinvent the wheel? I have huge respect for both scholars and delighted this is reaching the mainstream!!

[@chaddonal4331]

Where specifically is the “very thin veil between” taught in Scripture?

[@ringthembells143]

All over but specifically it starts on the Garden where Heaven and Earth overlap

[@chaddonal4331]

@@ringthembells143 I guess that’s what I’m looking for… any explicit teaching? Or is it only an interpretation: I.e. God is present with humans so the presumption is overlap of domains? Do we have more to work with?

[@ringthembells143]

@@chaddonal4331 The entire story of the Bible is about uniting Heaven and Earth ❤️🔔

[@kingdomfocus8059]

@@chaddonal4331 was there not a veil in the temple separating Heaven & earth.

[@AAROTheRedeemed]

Shout out to the Pysch fans. Yall see Corbin Bernsen

[@blueglassdave]

After hundreds of repetitions, I'm always struck when yet another Evangelist tells his audience, with what I don't doubt is complete sincerity, that he's here with the "real" truth of the Bible.

[@mwsince78]

I don’t know how you “review” an author and his work when you have not read/studied the books he wrote. I followed Heiser for several years and last summer I listened to his audio book “Unseen Realm” at least ten times. Heiser’s books have helped me connect so many dots in my understanding of the Bible. Everyone needs to listen to Heiser’s Supernatural Seminar series on YT. Thankfully he was very prolific on YT.

[@tiosurcgib]

Hmm NTW was slippery. He didn't really give a thumbs up to Heiser, but skirted around him, suspicious of giving credit to 'gods'. I agree with him - and while Heiser was an eye-opener to the existence and role of the Elohim, there's a certain level of importance given to them by Heiser's teachings that in my view runs counter to a Christian reading.

[@ringthembells143]

Correction* “runs counter to a Western evangelical reading” There fixed it ✅🔔❤️

[@tiosurcgib]

@@ringthembells143 Thanks. But I knew what I was writing. I don't identify as Evangelical.

[@dorothyross9392]

Love Michael Heiser.

[@nosretep1960]

Quite interesting. My first exposure to N.T. Wright, though I'd seen references. I don't consider the Masorah as authoritative, use the LXX like Jesus and the Apostles. The narrative is QUITE different, let alone translational spin. Throws a wrench in my schedule for a bit as I'm interested.

[@bobs8005]

Wright has some excellent work. He gets flack for his new perspective on Paul but he’s got a solid view on the gospel and kingdom like very few scholars.

[@calebstone22]

He just showed me that Heiser wasn’t overstating things when he said this stuff is common knowledge to scholars.

[@FAITHFULANDPROUD2GOD]

OK, I like this guy, Wright. What I'm gathering is because we know Israel is really God's ppl. So anyway, God's ppl Isaac's ppl are God's chosen at first. The ones who were given to the other sons of God. After Jesus took back authority from these gods. They are able to overcome what their ancestors brought them into. By accepting God as their God. These gods are still here today. They've just used many different ways to lead you to idolatry. Therefore, you are under these gods. Have the choice to come back to the true God. Sorry, but churches are part of the leading astray. Whether by actively knowing it or not. Because the church of God is His ppl. I'm not saying all churches are bad. The teachings got tampered with hundreds of years ago. Which led us to not be able to read the Bible in the full perspective. I've been researching this stuff for a while now. I know I may not be fully explaining in detail. It's more the short version

[@BentIronBins]

Yes his church are the believers in Christ. When 2 or more gather i will be there. Find a good bible based church or gather a group of like minded people to study the Bible. Never trust any one man only let the Holy Ghost guide you. Stay strong in his word.

[@FAITHFULANDPROUD2GOD]

@BentIronBins thank you. I know all this already. I'm not brand new to this. I just continue to see and understand things on a deeper level each day. That's because of the Holy Spirit and good ppl like Heiser, Wright, and ppl with these channels. Also, with help from ppl like you. So again, thank you. God bless

[@sam_chic1]

❤

[@davidshepley8803]

I was told about Heiser and "The Unseen Realm". I wanted to learn about Heiser to draw conclusions as to whether he is a so-called scholar who advocated a so-called higher knowledge or was he a solid Bible teacher with important ideas. I respect N. T. Wright notwithstanding his long winded comments. This video did nothing to help me to evaluate the teachings of Heiser. Disappointing, but I will search elsewhere.

[@Pneuma40]

Isa 44 6 “This is what the Lord says, He who is the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; And, let him confront Me [f]Beginning with My establishing of the ancient [g]nation. Then let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place. 8 Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.’”

[@joelong8181]

Not sure how you get “sons of God” out of Deuteronomy 32:8? The words are ben Adam” (sons of Adam), not “ben Elohim” (sons of God) as is used in Genesis 6. Can you explain this seemingly enormous problem. How do you come up with sons of God there?

[@ringthembells143]

Hello. Thank you so much for watching and commenting. There has been a deviation from our translations from the original manuscripts. All of our manuscript evidence overwhelmingly supports the rendering of “sons of God“. Here is a great starting point for you to watch. This is an older video but Helps gain some context here. I’ll share another if you’re interestedkzbin.info/www/bejne/jGWrfayQr8aXd9ksi=Zkft1KeCseCjlx4s

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

No. The sons of Adam is a mistranslation of the LXX, the Greek Septuagint which many modern translation incorrectly follow. Both the Massoretic text (Hebrew) and the Dead Sea Scrolls has the bene Elohim, the sons of the gods. James Tabor has also analyzed this extensively in many podcast, such as with Paulogia.

[@Pmac4943]

Thankful Wright pointed out Heiser’s henotheistic view is wrong. As the Apostle Paul says, “For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth…” (1 Cor. 8:5).

[@lauraadingmburu9446]

Love NT Wright, but he was unfortunately at a disadvantage here for having not read the unseen realm by the time of this interview. I actually think he would agree with it because it is biblically sound.

[@ringthembells143]

Hoping this conversation inspired him to pick it up🔔❤️✅

[@catpocalypsenow8090]

Wright said he hasn't read the book Unseen Realm. How can he review it?

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

He can't.

[@MRETV-rm1bh]

Then why does the title say "N.T. Wright Reviews" it?

[@dorothyross9392]

Seek jesus with all of your heart and you will find Him in a wonderful way. Even in a mystical encounter , maybe....

[@jeffbither4692]

Did the reformers and puritans miss all of these insights?

[@inspirittruth1985]

Where in scripture does it teach a thin veil between earth and GOD

[@ringthembells143]

The Garden of Eden Jesus himself And almost the entire Bible Teach us that Gods Will is to Unite Heaven and Earth and that they are closely knit together. Literally the whole narrative shadows this. And to top it all off Jesus is the full union of heaven and earth and shows that there is no separation✅❤️🔔

[@inspirittruth1985]

@@ringthembells143 so you can't answer the actual question asked? I hear your philosophical interpretation but not the verse or verses that teach about a "thin veil" so what verse or verses teach this concept?

[@phillipsugwas]

​@@inspirittruth1985 With respect. You have either not properly read or understood the reply given.

[@joachim847]

A lot of these comments say how badly Wright misunderstands Heiser, or that Wright is failing to take Heiser seriously. I love and appreciate both, and I don't feel the need to pit them against each other. Scholars, of all people, have their own interests which they must be left to pursue in peace. Anyway, I was horrified at Mike's explanation of the gospel - being the normal, evangelical emphasis on merit. Tom's explanation of the gospel is much better and more biblical - being nearly the Orthodox emphasis on virtue and the harrowing of Hades. Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death ☦

[@andinorth1507]

In addition to the insightful points that Wright emphasized, Matthew 28 instructs us on how to disciple the nations, emphasizing the importance of teaching His commandments. Teaching the blueprint for civil government as laid out in the Torah.

[@andinorth1507]

Would you agree? I’m not sure Wright would?

[@ToddParker]

The thing is, Heiser would have agreed with NT Wright on the exclusivity of Jesus. No one is dismissing that there is only ONE true triune God. This does not dismiss the fact that the text refers to a Divine Assembly that Yahweh oversees as Creator of all. He really does need to read Unseen Realm and Heiser's other books to pull it all together, anyone who has not needs to read that scholarship as well. I can tell NT sees it from his own framework, yet Heiser's scholarship would likely aid him in his own in this area I think.

[@josephholliman6006]

I am troubled by N. T. Wright saying that the principalities and powers being reconciled and returning to the jobs they once did. This does not square well with Psalm 82, in which Yahweh condemned the gods of the nations to death for the injustices they did to the weak and needy. I am not aware of Yahweh reconciling these gids back to himself. What did I miss?

[@ringthembells143]

I think it would be appropriate to read the parable of Jesus about the wheat and the weeds here Matthew 13. These cosmic judgments are to be left for God and his appointed angels. Because of Jesus we should all have a bias of hope and there are hints in the New Testament that would allow us to believe that even these corrupt rebellious spiritual powers can be redeemed by the blood of the lamb. None of that is certain and that’s why I refer back to The parable of the wheat and the weeds in Matthew 13. If all we had was the Old Testament and the revelations from Psalm 82, we could pronounce doom on these spiritual powers maybe much in the same way that we could doom upon ourselves. But we have the full revelation of Jesus Christ who is king of the world and brings Hope to the hopeless. That’s my best answer for a cosmic question such as this✅❤️🔔

[@josephholliman6006]

@@ringthembells143 That's a good thought when it comes to human beings, but we are referring to elohim and evidence in Psalms 82. Like wise what about the elohim who took wives as noted in Genesis 6. Are they subject to the weeds and the wheat separation? I don't think so. Jude 6 tells us that these elohim are in chains for their deeds and not subject to the weeds and the wheat parable. Moreover, Enoch tells us that upon appeal to the Almighty, they are still subject to condemnation. I am not certain Jesus sacrifice covers any one else but humans who choose to accept His sacrifice.

[@ringthembells143]

@@josephholliman6006 Enoch is not inspired scripture and I believe a good reason for it not being so is that it has judgmental overtones that don’t match the loyal love of our father revealed in Jesus the Christ. The dualistic thinking of “our camp” is the only one who is offered forgiveness does not compute with the complete narrative of scripture. I’m not saying any of this cosmic judgment makes sense or I have it figured out. I’m saying anyone who does say that they have it figured out And that spiritual beings are doomed “no matter what” are standing on false certainty that the Bible does not give. Again I hope that makes sense. Blessings to you

[@josephholliman6006]

@@ringthembells143 Woukd your answer be the same if Enoch were dropped from the discussion and Jude were retained?

[@ringthembells143]

@@josephholliman6006 my humility of approaching cosmic judgments that the Lord himself will give out will remain the same regardless🔔

[@rlh125]

I think Heiser was on to something, but I think the scripture he uses as his main proof - Psalm 82, which is the one that started him down his road - is not talking about spirit beings. It is talking about men who think of themselves as gods because of the power they wield. "Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” These are admonitions one would make to unjust kings, not territorial spirits.

[@kingdomfocus8059]

I tend to agree with you, remember God telling Moses that when he was before Pharoah, He said that the Pharoah would see you as a god.

[@pearltiger2003]

I agree, EXCEPT what do you do with the reference to "Elohim"? To me, this cannot be ignored or deemed misused in this passage, in light of how it is used in so many other scripture properly. Isn't this what originally prompted Mr. Heiser to see this from a different angle than the "accepted" interpretation? I could be wrong as I'm brand new to this, but it seems your interpretation lines up with the current popular view. I think I understand what Dr. Heiser was/is advocating in this instance; you say you think he is onto something, but not what he is actually advocating? Now you have me curious; what do you think he was onto if not what he has advocated in this instance? Thanks.

[@pearltiger2003]

​@@kingdomfocus8059 - I apologize for getting my reply in the wrong position! I also apologize for not knowing how to fix it once I've done it. My reply was for the same post you replied too. Thanks.

[@rlh125]

@@pearltiger2003 I think you're talking to me, so I will reply. 🙂 When I say that I think he is on to something, I mean that I think there are territorial spirits. The "Prince of Persia" in Daniel 10 seems to strongly suggest this, for example. But, in Psalm 82, I think God is mocking the human rulers when he calls them "gods" (Elohim). That's a criticism I have for Dr. Heiser. He doesn't leave open the possibility of a non-literal meaning in Psalm 82. Consider 1 Kings 18:27: "And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, 'Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” Would Dr Heiser say that the Elohim Baal was relieving himself in some spiritual bathroom? Or sleeping? No, because we're told that Elijah was mocking the priests. But what if we hadn't been told? Wouldn't it still be obvious? I think it would, but I'm not sure Dr. Heiser would agree. He might have built a whole argument that this proves that the "gods" use the restroom and sleep. I think Jesus backs my interpretation up in John 10. "'We are not stoning You for any good work,' said the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.' Jesus replied, 'Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came-and the Scripture cannot be broken...then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?'" When He says, "Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’?", he is quoting Psalm 82. Who does He go on to say was being referred to in that verse? "[H]e called them gods TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME." He obviously isn't referring to territorial spirits, but to MEN. After all, Jesus' point was that it wasn't blasphemy for Him - who the Jews perceived as just a man - to claim to be the SON of God if they are okay with God calling powerful men "gods". If He had thought that those in Psalm 82 were REALLY gods as Heiser thinks, I don't see how His rebuttal makes much sense. He would essentially be saying, "You don't mind that God called gods "gods", so why do you care if I - a man [as they perceived Him, at least] call myself the Son of God?"

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Morgenstern wrote a gigantic article in the Hebrew Union Annual showing the sons were gods. It is an incredible read. Heiser followed him quite a bit in his exegesis in his Doctoral Dissertation as well, which he personally sent me. I was so honored, and had a few discussions with him on it. His Hebrew analysis of Ps 82 is utterly convincing!

[@gordonsavage]

I think you need to listen to Tom Wright's response a few more times, and also get familiar with Walter Wink's books, because his positive description of Wink "grappling with these issues" takes things very far from Heiser (Wink sees the "principalities and powers" as social realities). Wright is a kind and gentle soul, but if you listen closely you'll see that he very much separates Christian Monotheism from the henotheism manifest in the clip you showed him.

[@ringthembells143]

No I disagree. I believe he just holds a balanced approach understanding these supernatural forces at work in combination with human social realities. I have put an enormous amount of time into this subject and specifically gathering information from Wright, Heiser, and Mackie. I’ll come back on here and tag my last video which is a complete podcast episode with Tom going over this specific subject with the BibleProject and this balanced approach that I speak of, and also the Bible speaks of, is present for NT Wright. Thanks for watching and commenting. I really hope you stick around and join our community. We need critical thinkers like you. Blessings

[@gordonsavage]

I appreciate your gracious reply, and wish nothing but the best for you in creating this forum to pursue these questions. But I do have a question: in what way is Heiser's work separable from Henotheism? @@ringthembells143

[@PaDutchRunner]

Heiser takes a few isolated passages and builds an entire hermeneutic from them. Heiser further denies the doctrine of original sin. In my opinion, Heiser’s teaching should be avoided.

[@ringthembells143]

The Bible does not teach that humans were created “with sin” God looked at what he made and said it was good, not sinful. We were corrupted by outside forces. We made our own decisions and failed to listen to our father. But we did not originate with Sin… So… original sin is bogus ✅

[@PaDutchRunner]

@@ringthembells143 Ok, if you’re going to have a theological KZbin channel, you should at least understand some of the basic terminology.

[@joachim847]

If you want to give the demon princes what for, start venerating saints. That's the meaning of the 24 elders in the Revelation; they've taken the place of the "24" fallen angels (a 3rd of 72). See? It's both. Demon princes are real, and humans matter. Mike and Tom are both correct 🙏

[@johannesmuller4695]

N.T. Wright meets Heiser? First step to this purpose would be: N.T. Wright reads Heiser. 🙄

[@ringthembells143]

What if that’s the second step🤷🏻‍♂️✌️❤️

[@niccoloaurelius1587]

It's always confounding to me that God would have a council of evil beings, which serve him, which were at least originally called the Sons of God, and that he would set them as appointed over the different nations...and then that they are basically oppositional to humanity, but God is not. What's up with all of this?

[@ringthembells143]

It’s always confounding to me that God could create humanity full well knowing that they would not only turn their back on him but even murder his own son. But God chose the route of establishing a community through love, forgiveness and redemption in and through himself. none of it makes sense, and we can thank God for for that.

[@niccoloaurelius1587]

@@ringthembells143 definitely confounding!

[@jonathani1]

Nicole, you have presented an excellent question. In Hebrew El means power. This can apply to a judge, a human being, or an acting on behalf of Elohim (the one try concentration of powers). The problem presented to people is that they are reading and trying to make sense of bad translations. The Shema says that there is only one God, one power, the true God. The concept of multiple powers in heaven, often evil ones is so far from scripture is blasphemous.

[@niccoloaurelius1587]

@@jonathani1 hi, it's Niccolo, not Nicole. I'm a male. Also, you should study the Bible more. It definitely speaks of multiple beings in heaven. Even multiple Yahwehs.

[@biblehistoryscience3530]

nicco, , God gave earth's throne to Adam, then Satan murdered him and took his authority, which is why Satan could tempt Jesus with a throne, saying he had the authority to choose kings. Backing up before the Flood, certain sons of God took human wives and created hybrid beings, then God sent the Flood to stop them corrupting all flesh. And those sons of God were chained in the lowest prison until the end. After the Flood, God declared the nation of Israel was his, and he gave all the Gentile nations to members of his Council. Then they terribly abused humans too, so God condemned them too. This is the part you said you didn’t understand, but God turned their evil to good because it means those people will have an easier judgment because they suffered unjustly and didn't have a chance to know the truth. Remember, Jesus said it will be more tolerable for the people of Sodom than Jewish towns who reject the gospel?

[@jim6798]

I read Heiser, struck me as way out of the mainstream of 2,000 years of scholarship.

[@AAROTheRedeemed]

Yaweh is the only uncreated Elohim. All others were created by the True God, Yahweh. The gods Heiser speaks about are fallen angels. Fallen angels can't climb back into heaven

[@sentinaludo1489]

Too much to explain in depth, but ask God for a dream or vision to explain it better than I can. Unless of course you research back to the beliefs about who God was in ancient Mesopotamian myth in terms of the discoveries from the library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh, or the non-canononical books found in the Dead Sea scrolls that were alongside the canonical books, or the discoveries of the tablets during the excavation of Ugarit. I believe that Christ was and is the Messiah. His kingdom was not of this world but He brought it to this world. He is the "Thura", a gate or a portal, into this Kingdom that we can, and some do enter into on a regular basis while living upon this earth. The Kingdom that is NOW. It is in Spirit. Heaven is not a destination to be arrived at after death or the man created doctrine called the rapture. It is about living in two worlds simultaneously; Heaven and earth. Back to when Abram was called out of Mesopotamia by God. Now Egyptian civilization had already been through many cycles of time by this point, and what I understand was the belief system he came out of, was there was a main God called EL, who had a wife called Asherah. They had 70 sons, (note the number-same as the sons of God scattered at the Tower of Babel incident), that were the rulers of the ancient civilizations. Among their children was one named Baal, the king of the other gods. There came a time when the culture revolted against Baal because of the demand for human sacrifice, similar to the Aztecs, similar to the abortion industry of today. Another son of EL and Asherah came to power to overthrow Baal and he was called Yahweh. Remember, Abram, when coming back from the conquest of the kings that took his nephew Lot met Melchizedek who was the high priest and ruler of Salem. Who did these two worship? El-Elyon= God Most High Where did Jacob lie down and have his vision of the ladder going up into the heavens? Where he built an altar to God and worshiped there? Beth-EL= House of God El was huge in ancient myth and understanding about who God was and I believe there is much more to take into account about the bene-elohim, ie "sons of God", and their place in the historical account of the interaction between the physical and the spiritual worlds of life. The revelation of who God was and what the final revelation of who God is, is in the person of Jesus Christ.

[@Dirtbug473]

We must still realize...all little g gods were created. God Almighty of the Hebrews has always existed in the triune God. The other gods are simply powerful demonic entities. There us only one God that is self existense.

[@N8R_Quizzie]

I agree about the part about spiritual warfare at the end, but most of what Micheal S Heiser says about the elohim and what you said about casting out demons is problematic. Our ability to depend on Christ and to commit to the spiritual warfare you talked about is hindered when we have some sort of notion to war against the spiritual beings when Christ has and will conquer them finally. If something demonic does happen, we ought to pray and depend on Christ, and that is simply it.

[@yagababa6663]

So you are asking Wright's opinion on the Heiser's book, which he has NOT read? Dr Heiser is an academic scholar who studied the Bible in the original.languages so he thoroughly studied and went into the problem. Suddenly Wright gives his opinion - what academic education has Wright?

[@UVJ_Scott]

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. 27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. 28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him. Abraham 3

[@toddwinters7066]

I’m new to the conversation, but doesn’t Jesus identify the use of the term gods in John’s gospel 10:34. 34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law: ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be nullified), 36are you saying of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; Could it not just be people to “whom the word of God came”?

[@ringthembells143]

Literally made a video Specifically about this. Please watch and let me know what you think ✌️🔔❤️kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJbRqmugjdqrjMUsi=AH3OPQlgaEw7M43z

[@jonathani1]

Elohim does not mean gods. There can be no other gods. Read the Shema.

[@toddwinters7066]

@@jonathani1 Where do you get that (sincerely curious)? Even in the Jewish translation in Genesis 1 :1 Elohim is interpreted as God.