Nail Knot vs Welded Loop | Strongest Fly Line to Leader Knot?

[@tyrellosterud7788]

Always good reminder that you can fish how ever you want (morally and legally obviously ) both ways catch fish. For some one like me who uses the same leader butt for Stillwater fly fishing I’ve found it easier to use a nail knot

[@GLDNTRT]

That connection isn’t about strength, it’s about presentation. Welded loops hinge when you’re casting. My tippet is breaking long before my fly line to leader connection.

[@webb-cast1030]

The devil is in the details. IMO your nail knot is tied improperly. Look very closely in a full screen @1:36. There shouldn't be a line on the outside of the knot crossing the five wraps around the fly line. At the very least it makes the knot bulkier. I tie my nail knots with a Brown's nail knot tool (simple small brass tube with a 1" split ring on an end). A plastic tubed cotton swab works just as well. Q-Tip brand is paper and won't work. The entire knot is finished on the tube before inserting the fly line. "Dressing the knot" is very important. Pinch the knot as hard as you can with your thumb and forefinger and don't let go of the hard pressure when sliding the knot off the tube. Maintain this pressure. Gradually tighten the knot by alternating pulls on the tag end and leader end of the butt section until tight. Finish tightening by pulling on the tag end with pliers or forceps. I would be very interested in the strength difference with the nail knot tied this way.

[@ibookje]

Saw that too and thought that's a bad nail knot

[@alfonsagelwei5280]

I saw that too. That's the worst nail knot l've ever seen.

[@davidverinsky8916]

I'm surprised not one person has mentioned using an albright knot?? I love welded loops for alot of my fishing but for very large fish or saltwater I use an Albright. It has never failed me yet!

[@bigguavaflyfishing]

Albright is bulky, thats the only downfall in my eyes, strong as hell, and would work in a pinch, but the modern loops are so good you'd be hard pressed to break one open on a fish unless your leader is a higher break strength than the fly line core.

[@rejectthereset8480]

I think welded loops are the way to go. Well done video! Covered all the bases and the test to prove it! Nothing against MRO, I enjoy their videos as well!

[@Tridentflyfishing]

Thanks for watching, and we appreciate your kind words, Al!

[@jtking96]

When you say that welded loops are 38% stronger, are we talking line to backing or line to leader? What about other variables like line weight, leader material, or backing type? It would be cool to see a write up like you did for the backing shootout with the data.

[@3runjosh]

and yet the tippet will break before any of that is tested in the real world so none of it really matters. Unless of course your tippet is stronger than your fly line leader connection.

[@jcambeis]

What about the transfer of energy? Welded loops create a hinge.

[@robertheal261]

No they don't.

[@onisgagan2481]

Thanks Ben, I agree, for 95% of us welded loops are the overall better option…

[@andreiiancu5144]

Well, I've asked for your opinion in the comments of the video "How to Set Up A Fly Reel | Attaching Backing, Fly Line, Leader & Tying Knots" and this is my answer haha. Thank you a lot!

[@charliegall6385]

I have been fly fishing with Welded Loops for decades without a problem, Charlie G.

[@Tridentflyfishing]

We're still waiting for a problem to arise, too

[@ThatDaveGuy77]

I’m glad someone noticed that video and that has been their stance.. I heard him say that a while ago and was baffled as it seems like a pretty dumb thing to do.. there’s nothing wrong with welded loops.. As great and knowledgeable as those 2 are I feel like they’re acting like the old people who don’t like change 😂

[@ThatSB]

You were baffled because you think you know better than a literal icon with 50 years of experience

[@ThatDaveGuy77]

@@ThatSBbeing an icon doesn’t mean he’s always right..

[@ThatSB]

@redhatchyguy He is an icon because he has tried and tested everything and understands the physics behind the fundamentals of fly casting. That is why his methods hold weight

[@thuleanperspectivefr]

@@ThatSB Wait till you learn that in practically every scientific application, suboptimal methods are utilized for convenience and their strong points in other regions.

[@msb2948]

That video was with none other than Philip Pallot and what you missed is the information he gave as to why it's done. Additionally he did a follow-up on this.

[@coreytohme9861]

Who is Phillip Pallot? Never heard of him.

[@msb2948]

@@coreytohme9861 A.I. auto typo, Flip Pallot is his correct name, he is a fly fishing legend, a decent hunter as well.

[@coreytohme9861]

@@msb2948 I just had to yank your chain. I completely respect Flip Pallot.

[@thomasharrison72]

Never had a nail knot fail, had several welded loops fail

[@bobgeorge2283]

Bull!

[@marcquintin7855]

That's bull sh*t

[@paigeloomis]

I’ve kept lines well past their prime on my indicator rods and the welded loops do eventually wear out. I cut them off and replace them with those mesh loops. It’s just for indicator fishing, so I’m not that concerned how it casts.

[@3runjosh]

I noticed that my leader was already cutting half way through the diameter of my 6wt 444 line after a few months of casting. Chopped it, snelled it and live a happy life.

[@ThatSB]

I was really hoping you were going to test this. Neither is going to fail. We are fishing trout not sharks. No one is arguing that. They argue that it makes way too large of a hinge where you double up the fly line and leader and then go back down. The fact they are added doesn't mean they are better. It means they are easier and people want them.

[@MrGsxr10001]

A friend gave me a fly rod twenty + years ago and it still has the same line on it. It has been hanging on my wall for many years. there is a metal Eyelet that has barbs on it that is pushed into the line and has an eyelet to tie the leader to. Is this just old school and no one uses these anymore? I only fished it for a short time and then hung it up to display and never really got into fly fishing. I am looking to set it back up with fresh line so I'm learning. Thanks for any info.

[@dylanmounsey7515]

Galloup and Pallet say cut it off so I’m cutting it off 😂

[@Tridentflyfishing]

😅

[@knurles]

They say cut it off for certain types of fishing....

[@ryanbrand3946]

I see no comment?

[@flyfish6473]

​@bryceg5709 Contact fishing, but you can use the nail knot for dry flies, too.

[@samirvine2549]

That's a casting thing, not a strength thing. Pick your preference

[@hughiegraves8901]

I agree 100% with everything you said.👍

[@Tridentflyfishing]

🤙

[@thesound25]

A lot of the arguments for NOT using the welded loops i can't understand. And some FOR using them i also don't agree fully with. However i do myself cut then of, on the reel-end i make my own which i strip the coating and spice and sow together (makes it thinner cause of no "double-coating" and smoother for my shootinghead-style) On the leader-end i use Needle-knot through the flyline core and out through the side. The reason for that is better power-transfer to the leader, and if i ever pull my leader inside the guides on a last-minute rush from the fish. I will point out the strenght have never been an issue for me, i only fish "smaller" scandinavian coastal seatrout up to max 30lbs and the majority being under 5-6lbs. My point with this comment is...there is other options, but you need to way what are the importent thing for you in your fishing before you decide to "DESTROY" a perfectly fine flyline... There are pros and cons for everythng ;) As always a great video from you guys, keep up the good work... ;)

[@Tridentflyfishing]

Michael, we appreciate you taking the time to voice your opinion. Thanks for watching!

[@2011vvr]

For a beginner like myself, the welded loops are the way to go!!!

[@Tridentflyfishing]

They definitely are, Julian!

[@charlesarmstrong5292]

Welded loops for most applications are simply the way to go. 'No brainer' as you guys in the USA would say. Thanks for the video.

[@wildaboutchrist]

People fishing for 20lb stripers in December with heavy streamers need different setups than people fishing for 8" trout in April with very small dry flys. Do what makes you happy and enjoy your time on the water!

[@jeffreyhildebrand4867]

In the video I saw, the leader butt was affixed to the fly line via a snell knot, not a nail knot. I use both depending on the fishing situation.

[@stephenohki7276]

For trout, I agree. What about for tarpon, GTs or roosters? There are advocates for using 50 lb braided double catch mono loops " Chinese finger cuff" secured with nail knot and glue, especially for backing to line. Thoughts? Ever compared strengths?

[@tomt5176]

Hi Trident. Welded loops are the best! I’ve used both without problems, but like you said, “… you paid for it…”

[@Tridentflyfishing]

For sure!

[@Vassle]

Nail knot Al the way for me, I only fish for trout BTW so no need for it to withstand anything more than about 5lb

[@bobmccarney4772]

Thank you! The nail knot approach never made sense to me. Even with a using Knot Sense to coat a nail knot, it's more bulky to me and therefore more likely to get caught in the guides. Plus, the flexibility of being able to change leaders quickly outweighs to "energy transfer" argument to me.

[@ThatSB]

Why would you need to change leaders

[@marcquintin7855]

@@ThatSB Lets say, changing a 5' leader for streamers to a 7.5 or more leader for dry fly

[@ThatSB]

@@marcquintin7855 you use the same butt end for both of those..

[@Shawn-ts4jw]

I cut those loops off, and will continue to do so. Always get stuck on the rod eyes

[@chaoyang9080]

Also depends on the coating material, diameter of leader mono. Thin monos will dig into the coating, rip the coating off. Airflo coating can be easily ripped off since they are PVC free.

[@stephenrosenfeld833]

I use 30# Chameleon for my leader butt section, and yes, it eventually cuts through the Airflo welded loops. Even worse, I found it impossible to then tie on a nail knot. It would cut right through the fly line as soon as I tightened it. The only way to rescue the fly line was with one of those Chinese finger trap loops, and I wasn't a fan of it. It stiffened a couple of inches of line and made me think that the power transfer wasn't as even as it should be. Does that make a difference? Probably not, but as a fisherman, I need to cling to every excuse I can!

[@squeeze127]

There is a flat spot when using the loops. When using a nail knot, a drop of epoxy seals that connection. When trout fishing, I have used a a needle and inserted about 3/8 inch into the fly line then punching through the fly line, use a lighter to just heat up the needle to expand the fly line. Then pull it out and insert the leader into the fly line and out the hole and wrap it around the fly line and knot the leader. A drop of epoxy on the leader then snug up the fly line to leader connection before the epoxy dries. That method goes through the snake guides effortlessly! Never lost a leader yet on this method while fishing for trout. Big games is another story.

[@trevorluft1763]

What about the option of threading your leader through the fly line and super gluing in place?

[@Twilk94]

I really hope your joking

[@koestergaard]

That is for casting practice only. I know some people advocates for the option, but I've never seen it backed with any evidence. Do not rely on a glued connection.

[@jimswift9879]

I have used a crazy glued connection for the last 15 years and have NEVER had it fail. It's incredibly smooth and makes it easier to fight fish, especially when using a longer leader (like 12'-14'). I've caught plenty of 20"+ browns on 6x-2x with no issues. It also doesn't make the tippet sink, as some might claim. I will say it is a pain in the butt to learn to do properly. With that said, I wouldn't use it for steamer fishing, only dries and nymphing.

[@Twilk94]

@@jimswift9879 ok that I could see, I’m coming from a saltwater perspective.

[@jimswift9879]

@@Twilk94 yeah I definitely wouldn't trust it for stripers or anything saltwater haha

[@barry4fish]

Gotta chime in here. One of the complaints I have heard, is that there is a loss of energy and/or sensitivity compared to nail knot. I don’t really buy that argument, because I think it’s important to make sure that “handshake” knot between leader and fly line is tightened down and seated properly. I try to flatten out the knot and make sure it won’t slip under tension. The closeups in your video don’t show the connection when it’s really tight. Also, people complain about the kink in that part of your connection. But, both of these problems go away for the most part, after you have caught several fish, which also holds true for the risk of welded loops hanging up on the guides. Another thing, welded loops can be replaced, and you can get good at it too. Most fly lines are weld-able, use shrink tubing and either a heat gun or lighter. But, I really don’t find that I have to do that very often. The only time I use a nail knot is for some of the older lines that can’t be welded (plastic formula used does differ across fly lines).

[@Tridentflyfishing]

Thanks for taking the time to respond with a well thought out comment, Barry!

[@ThatSB]

The fact of the matter is you are taking the perfect taper designed into both fly line and leader and destroying it

[@devinshook3289]

I personally like welded loops and I understand the hate but imo the convenience factor is too good to not use

[@Tridentflyfishing]

For sure!

[@Wildtr0ut]

Good presentation. When the world record fly rod tarpon were taken with IGFA class leaders, nail knot was a standard. Newer technology, better ways to do things. Not sure but are there many people even fishing for igfa records? Maybe, not many fly shops tie, or know how to tie an igfa leader.

[@Tridentflyfishing]

Not many

[@coreytohme9861]

A lot of anglers still abide by the IGFA regulations even though they aren't chasing records. It is a bad practice not to be able to have a "fuse" in the line in the event that the line gets wrapped around a body part or if there is a shark chasing the fish and you need to break the fish off to give it a fighting chance.

[@Wildtr0ut]

@@coreytohme9861 totally agree. Too many tarpon lost to sharks

[@Inlandrouteflyfishingupnorth]

Interesting comment. I chase IGFA records, only because it's somewhat convenient if you live near fish that can qualify for a record. From my perspective a lot of people are actually chasing IGFA records , though a great portion of that are sort of obscure records...unusual species, extra light tippet or female records provide a lot of opportunity. But if you follow the IGFA closely you would see there's a lot of activity in records. The "quality of record" varies. There are only a few factors that constitute an "IGFA leader." If you aren't using a shock tippet (bite guard if using extra light tippet), then the only requirement is at least 15 inches of class tippet, no specific knots are required. If you use a shock tippet, then that cannot be longer than 12" and the class tippet still needs to be at least 15". That's really it, IGFA leaders are no big deal.

[@tommymarelius]

totally agree

[@TheChrisfleury1]

If you're going to talk smack about another videos for clout, drop the name. don't be a coward.

[@daleweller5193]

Sounds good to me.

[@danielbyars6]

Welded knots great for amateurs, nail knot way to go if you are more avid. Slap some UV resin on the nail knot and it will go through guides smoother than anything. If you need to swap line and have trouble with knots...practice more. As far as strength, test it on a bull red not a machine. Also mono can cut fly line on a welded knot over time and pressure... Nail knot youll know/see when to change and re tie

[@msb2948]

Your starting a difference of opinion with an icon your not qualified.

[@bobgeorge2283]

"Your" should be "You're" my "not qualified" friend : )

[@chaoyang9080]

Actually no one is really gonna apply such drag force directly to the rod tip and to the reel. As I can remember from the 2018 8 weight reel shootout made by Trident. Only a few high end reel s have 20lb+. Abel sds (25.22),Hardy fortuna (22.36), Ross evolution r salt (23.43). If your knot strength is higher than 20 lb. It’s ok to use either method to connect your leader to fly line.

[@tuloko16]

Depends. Sometimes you “palm” the reel to apply more pressure then the drag can provide. Pretty common fishing for tarpon in the mangroves.

[@glenndotter5065]

I love it. One guy saysy cut it off. Another says dont. To each hisn.

[@3runjosh]

fishing for views through controversy

[@hunterbemboom318]

I’ve fished welded loops for a long time, never had a single problem. Streamers, dries, nymphs, from 2wt to 10wt, no issue and for the people who say it has to do with casting… well I’m no expert in physics but there is NO WAY it makes that “BIG” of a difference

[@crazymtbrider]

I tie a single knot on the end of the fly line and tie on the leader behind that and I've smashed my pb several times this season fish don't care about your connection it wants the fly

[@HondoTrailside]

One does wonder what percentage of fisherman actually rig their own gear. I always do, but having worked in a shop during Uni, just about anyone who bought a line had us rig the whole thing. There are lots of problems with doing it yourself, and most peopled don't know how. So if you are in the 90% (back then) who had us do it, you can forget about all that other stuff.

[@3runjosh]

two types of people. creators and users. Creators will be the types that want to understand what goes on under the hood to fully comprehend the activity and get the most out of their desires with it. Users just want something that is easy and get someone else to fix stuff when it breaks. As a 4 year old I would take everything in the bath and dismantle it and rebuild it just to figure it out more. The bath was my workshop haha. The only thing that has changed is my workshop location. Saves a lot of money being my own engineer!

[@Flies_the_limit]

Don't tell me what to do you're not my mom dude

[@Maraboumadness]

Loll fr

[@Flies_the_limit]

@@Maraboumadness well he's not

[@Maraboumadness]

@@Flies_the_limit well the way he orders me around has me questioning 💀

[@Maraboumadness]

@@Flies_the_limit well thank your for clearing up any confusion sir

[@paulbugeja5425]

You failed to cover the most important point and that is the transfer of power from fly line to leader...

[@3runjosh]

can't talk about that now. he needs this controversial video for views.

[@ronaldfisher222]

I use welded loops , I can't tie a nail knot to save myself.

[@Tridentflyfishing]

Tough without the tool!

[@MatthewEvey]

There you go. That is the reason we have welded loops. There is no other explanation. I get the feeling the creator of the video is in the same boat as you.

[@ChrisUong.English]

to me nail knot looks cleaner.

[@JWoodcock]

I dunno man, this has me Flippin' out...

[@ryanbrand3946]

1:30 is not a nail knot, and not only that it only has 5 turns. 2:16 if you call that big lump of turns on top of each other a nail knot i can only imagine what else you did to favor your results.

[@ryanmasneri3972]

Your move, flip.

[@3runjosh]

I bet Flip couldn't care less what others are doing. He has been around too long for that. He knows what works best and he is happy if no one else follows suite lol. It really is simple physics. Stuff you work out as a kid playing with toys.

[@paulbazzoni695]

if nailknots were so much better would it be out of the question that the fly line companies would have just added the butte section on their lines via a nail knot ? Cutting off the welded loops, that have been backed by research, testing and years of successful use in the field is ridiculuous IMO

[@Tridentflyfishing]

Agreed

[@MatthewEvey]

First of all, learn how to spell butt! Second of all, the only reason the fly line industry has added welded loops is the vast majority of anglers can't tie a proper nail knot. The only nail knot shown in this video was clearly improperly tied. Case in point!

[@donberry9279]

Hmmmm. Do you think Flip Pallot might have done some research, testing, and has a few years of success in the field? He has consulted on rod design, boat design, and Lord knows what else. He is one of the people researchers go and find to talk to in order to learn things and save themselves time getting up to speed. In the video in question Flip explains his reasoning pretty well.

[@wdnpushpole]

Flip disagrees

[@waynegraff3942]

😂😂😅😅😅😅😂😂😂😅😅😅😂😂😅😅😅 Cut it off!

[@TB-zh9pe]

Flip Pallot uses a snell knot, not a nail knot to attach leader butt to backing. Maybe the snell knot is stronger than a nail knot.

[@3runjosh]

and it is far easier to tie successfully

[@PicturesofTravel]

Training wheels for fly fisherman

[@rigginuts]

I wonder how many fish have been caught and world records been set by fly fishermen using a nail knot ? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[@robcoyne7351]

Always cut off

[@Dressagevids]

GT...ha ha you wont last long

[@Twilk94]

It was always odd to me that mad river outfitters recommended this. Brian fleschig just blindly follows flip pallot.

[@mikeabel1660]

Exactly what I was going to say. He has no original thoughts, he's simply parroting what his idols say.

[@louisgoins]

Well if I am going to follow someone on fly fishing it will be Brian Fleshing and Flip Pallot. They are several light years beyond you. I add this comment as I know they will take the high road on your childish statement.

[@ThatDaveGuy77]

@@louisgoins doesn’t mean either of them are right about this particular thing.. tommy isn’t entirely wrong.. I have noticed this a lot lately about Brian..

[@jcambeis]

Pretty sure Brian's primary argument are two fold. 1. Welded loops create a hinge point and thus diminish the transfer of energy. He may be following Physics rather than Flip. 2. Over time, leader material cuts into welded loops. Just got fish to see this happening.

[@Twilk94]

@@louisgoins this video is talking about them. You never seen a nail knot strip a fly line to its core? A big fish will do that.