Naoíse Mac Sweeney on Redefining Our Understanding of “The West” | Amanpour and Company

The historical traditions and politics of the Western world have been shaped by what we know of our Greek and Roman origins. But historian Naoíse Mac Sweeney says the traditional "From Plato to NATO" understanding is misleading. Mac Sweeney joins the program to talk about her new book “The West.”
Originally aired on Sep 11, 2023
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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[@NewLeftToday]

This book is going to be banned in Florida

[@spartacusforlife1508]

The wests development owes as much to northern tribes as it does to greece and Rome. Saxons, Norman's, vikings and the franks. Post 500 A.D. European power lay in the North and it was in the north that the modern form of democracy developed along with industrialism and economics

[@reginaerekson9139]

2:41 and Latin. High School Students were still learning Latin, Calculus, Geometry, French, Italian and Spanish in the 80’s in Los Angeles.

[@cherylalt101]

I was in high school in the suburbs of Buffalo, NY in the 70s, and we also had the options of studying Latin, Spanish, German or French. By 1974 or 75, Russian was added and Japanese a couple years later. Same with math. I only went to trigonometry but calculus had always been available. We had so many options besides the basics it was a wonderful education. By 1975, the school was incorporating college credit for several different classes. At the same time, kids who weren't interested in college could graduate with a diploma that covered all the basics, but spend half their day going to Boces, which offered training certification in at least 20 different professions like mechanic, barber, carpenter, hairdresser, secretary, etc. These days it seems like many kids have to get these certifications at a community college where they must pay for what used to be a free high school education. As always in America, it depends on where you live which determines what Kuro nd of education you get. Imo, that just shouldn't be the way it works.

[@shirleyashanti3031]

In the 50s and 60s in Illinois also, at least in Chicago

[@andreawallenberger2668]

Delaware as well.

[@reginaerekson9139]

15:50 that is an interesting point! I love my list of 10 - 10 things the World needs from the USA. We could probably focus on the top 3. We will likely need cooperation to make the whole top 10 and we all know how sketchy that gets with other family members sometimes!

[@janglobus9384]

Can't blame her, half chinese and Irish. Its like rolling the Dice twice and get two ones. I would be saltly too😂

[@williamrivers3716]

I found the political narrative in this video to be heavy handed. I'm all for revisiting our self-conception --- it's arguably part of historiography (as MacSweeney knows well) and it happened in every era. It's the "the history you were taught was wrong ... on purpose... because... white men... because... diversity..." to be tone deaf and, again, heavy handed. I grew up in the '90s and early '00s, back when Civil War history was cool. I did just fine, am a proud American (even though I'm a "minority," too), and I love history. To put it into perspective, when this video started, I thought to myself, "What do you mean? I learned in Neil de Grasse Tyson's Cosmos TV show that the classical Greco-Roman texts were reintroduced to Europeans in the Middle Ages by scholars in the Arabic world --- isn't that an example of current Western history that puts the West into broader, global perspective?" It's an example like that --- is the video above straw-manning just a tad? That Cosmos show came out around 10 years ago... and it made it real clear that the Arab world in the Middle Ages made super important contributions that helped set up Europe for the Renaissance and scientific revolution later... Yes, if you only watch Fox News, you think Western history is this fairy tale... but there are reasonable people out there who don't like the way our idea of "the West" is being handled. For example, Douglas Murray. The hosts of this show (and maybe MacSweeney) should read Murray's book, "War on the West." He checks both boxes: (1) he would vehemently disagree with some of the perspective in this video, if not the facts per se and (2) he *knows* Western history (e.g., aforementioned role of Arabs in reinvigorating European scholarship after the Dark Ages). Seriously, I am under the impression the people in the video above do not really have much exposure to (smart) people who disagree with them. Murray is on the higher end in that regard --- I submit that reading Murray's book (or even just a few hours of his podcast/interview appearances) would help to avoid making further heavy-handed/tone-deaf (just my view) videos in the future. We all have blindspots/echo-chambers/etc.

[@Bootrosgali]

Great, off to look for more Naoise talikng about it

[@montpelier3]

Thank you

[@janetennyson5455]

Note: Herodotus was not half-Anatolian. He may have had some Carian ancestry, but his father Lyxes (and uncle Panyassis) is nowhere stated to have actually been Carian. If this were the case, later Greek authors would have pointed it out since many of them were not fond of Herodotus. Just ask Plutarch.

[@robertwalker8453]

Interesting. I would like to read more. Can you provide sources for the information you shared. Thanks

[@yalbad5160]

Why would disliking Herodotus make them point out his non-Greek half? The Greeks weren't into genetic-racialism.

[@TheJhtlag]

"We can only imagine Herodotus must have felt that" um, OK. and, of course, Herodotus, a prolific writer would have mentioned that somewhere....right?

[@CoachJJ]

A truly educated person and message ❤

[@ginogina4589]

Cant wait to read it!

[@Drganguli]

Well I grew up in India and read that India was at the Center of all history. I am sure this is the same in China and other non-western countries too. Only a small fraction of the world population thinks the world is solely a western construct

[@richardhoff665]

Noise McSweeny

[@parkmannate4154]

Been reading this book. Very good, and her framing around individuals makes it easy to follow. Strong recommend.

[@davidl.7317]

I've added it to my reading list.

[@Sad_bumper_sticker.]

Said’s book on the East and West narrative and “orientalism” should be taught in high school for the youngsters to understand western narratives regarding identity

[@jackspencer8290]

When I think about Greek philosophers, I think about ideas, not the identity of the philosopher. But I guess I just want to “dominate” other cultures. {sigh}

[@nubosite]

Ofcourse, you can’t possibly argue that western supremacy is a myth, or that it’s not rooted in the false idea dat it is inherently supreme. The KKK, history of enslavement is rooted in dos very idea, dat one is inherently superior to another, and the ideas, philosophy and culture are the manifest evidence. The lady’s work suggests rather that the superior western idea is mostly a synthesis of Asian, African and western ideas and culture.

[@janetennyson5455]

Didn't you get the memo? Everything has to be about social political agendas and feelings these days.

[@eliashe1797]

Hm, sounds pretty lame tbh. Some fairly obvious counterpoints to make: 1) the people who actually did the stuffs based their understanding exactly on that history, not the historical narrative this author is proposing. This means, like it or not, the stuffs they did were formed via that history. If i were to craft a philosophy based on greeco-roman teaching while being ignorant of their influece in the middle east, then i would've thereby crafted a philosophy that is not within the historical narrative that includes the middle east. The point is that such is what actually happened 'in the west' . This author even acknowledges this. 2) there isn't much new in the author's argument. I was taught this in university bc i studied philosophy and classics. It isn't a great mystery. 3) one can note the broader historical realities without attempting to destroy other historical realities. This author doesn't do this, and is instead actively seeking to destroy historical realities to make some money and brownie points for herself. That's a big bad. Its kinda sad and pathetic to watch.

[@yalbad5160]

I think her point isn't that there are other ways of seeing the progress of Greek and Roman culture, rather that the Western "Greece>Rome>Western Europe>America" model itself isn't entirely true. She's not wrong. Roman culture didn't entirely derive from Greece, and Western European culture didn't emtir6(or even mostly) derive from Rome. I'd argue Jerusalem (Christianity) was more important the development of the West than Athens or Rome.

[@eliashe1797]

@@yalbad5160 i think this doesn't really address what I said tho. In terms of historical realities, for instance in American culture, the influence is Greek and roman (also native american but that's besides the point here) bc the people who 'founded the country' understood it thusly. Similar is true of 'western civilization' as in, say, European history. They themselves actually believed that is what they were doing, consciously doing so oft enough even, thus it was so. Also Christianity and Judaism are both influenced by Greek and Roman traditions, deeply entwined even. It is possible to parse between those, but overall historically a lot of the history, theology and philosophies are influencing each other. The middle eastern influences have long been noted in any real study of the topics too. Its just not anything profound or interesting to note it these days.

[@yalbad5160]

@@eliashe1797 But that is her point: That the modern West's perceptions of how it came about is wrong. I can believe I am descendant from royalty, and such a belief can shape and influence my behaviour, but if it's ultimately wrong then it's wrong.

[@eliashe1797]

@@yalbad5160 I'm not sure what else to say tbh. As my original comment states, which the author agrees with but draws the wrong conclusion from, if I develop a philosophy based on Greek and Roman philosophical thought, oblivious to any Middle Eastern influences on Greek and Roman philosophical thought, I am still just developing a philosophy based on Greek and Roman philosophy. Thats how that actually works. I cannot be influenced by things in this sense at any rate to which I am oblivious of. If I become aware of what those influences are, I am no longer oblivious and then I can be influenced by them. But the folks who did the stuffs were oblivious when they did it, hence they could not have been influenced by it. That she's also trying to pretend that bc Greek and Roman philosophical thought has influences from the Middle East therefore it is a 'false narrative to think our influences from Greek and Rome that we ought destroy' is itself a false infrence to draw, and an utterly monstrous suggestion of action. Again, we are taught this stuff in university too, its not a revelation, she's just making bad inferences and wildly monstrous suggestions of what it means and what we ought do. Its kinda painfully bad to hear her hot takes on it tbh.

[@yalbad5160]

@@eliashe1797 I think you're misunderstanding her point: She's talking about the streams of history, and how the Western idea of things going straight from Athens to Rome to London to NY is historically wrong, even of the West thought otherwise. China has a (pseudo-)Communist government, but the Chinese wouldn't claim to be heirs to 19th century German culture.

[@youtuber5305]

- It has always been true that the men who were defending Western ideals were bound to be in alliance with men who intended to defend only Western interests. (Butterfield)

[@carlpeterson347]

Wow...gotta get this book!

[@Rnankn]

There is no “west”, it is an empty signifier. Europe was settled by indigenous hunter gatherers, Anatolian formers, and horse peoples from the Steppe. Christianity was clearly an eastern desert faith based on scripture and solitary communion; whereas European animism and then polytheism functioned through ritual and tradition to influence natural forces on which agriculturalists and pastoralists depended. The so-called ‘west’ that came to the defense of Ukraine were from all different languages, cultures and histories across three continents. India is much closer to Ukraine than Canada, South Korea, or New Zealand - yet Indians claimed it was a distant European concern of ‘the west’. I fail to see it as more than a politically expedient reductionism.

[@kevinmcgrane4279]

Fascinating perspective. I’d love to read her book if I didn’t already have a stack of fifty sitting on the nightstand in my “to be read” pile.

[@TheJhtlag]

go ahead and read the other fifty books.

[@michaelboguski4743]

High standards of Consumerism drives Exclusionalism (not enough of the pie to go around) as the author explained in ancient Athens as is today in MAGA-style Economies.

[@typhoon320i]

WTF is a MAGA-style economy?

[@michaelboguski4743]

@@typhoon320i make wherever great again, any country pitting populace against each other because 'your particular tribe isn't getting enough material consumption'..... I'm not just picking on Trump, but he's the latest example. Despots never call for Conservatism, oh no, they rally their herd for more and more pasture, more and more grazing.

[@jamiedorsey4167]

You could also make more pie.

[@TheJhtlag]

@@typhoon320i Make Athens Great Again!

[@javajava8856]

How are Persians considered 'eastern asians'? Persia/Iran is in southwestern Asia. Also "whiteness" is an incendiary term used by the likes of Robin DiAngelo. You lose credibility by using it.

[@TheJhtlag]

And used here by the frog lady.

[@fleurosea]

Hate “the west” or having to identify as “western” given I’m in Aotearoa, but it’s the name of the culture I’ve been raised in 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@j.obrien4990]

Same here as Mexican the East West dichotomy has always annoyed, almost as boiling things down black/white racial issues. BTW I'd love to visit Aotearoa some day, Auckland looks like a beautiful city the nature there...

[@junkmail4613]

3:12 Up until now, "The perfect mastery of embellishing about revealing absolutely nothing about the culture not at hand!" ALLUSION TO FACT, YET NADA. I'm calling THE BS SWITCH. .............. bye

[@unme4728]

Straw man fallacies all over this one.😂

[@Hound45]

Excuse me…..no need for the West to be redefined.

[@rer9287]

Herodotus is not western - greek is not western, Latin and Rome is "the west" as specifically Greece and the entire rest of the world is east for anyone speaking a latin based language like english. derp

[@caesmonde]

So excited to read this with my homeschool teen & spouse! Maybe our older kiddo will join in our mini book club also. Thank you for bringing attention to this author & researcher.