Narcissistic Fantasy | Grandiose vs. Vulnerable Narcissism Fantasy Themes

This video answers the question: Can I describe the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism in terms of the fantasies? Stated another way: Are the fantasy-based differences between these two types of narcissism? This is an interesting question because it gets into kind of the complex relationship between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder. It also makes the argument that you can, in some sense, distinguish grandiose and vulnerable narcissism by looking at fantasies, although I don't know if that's possible. Throughout my career, I have seen a lot of differences in the fantasies.
NPD narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. It's a cluster B personality disorder. The symptom criteria for that disorder include: grandiose sense of self-importance, fantasies of wealth power and success, feeling special or unique, requiring excessive admiration, sense of entitlement, tending to manipulate other people, a lack of empathy, jealously, and arrogance.
With grandiose narcissism we see characteristics like being extroverted, socially bold, self-confident, having a superficial charm, being resistant to criticism, and being callous and unemotional. Vulnerable narcissism is characterized by shame, anger, aggression, hypersensitivity, a tendency to be introverted, defensive, avoidant, anxious, depressed, socially awkward, and shy.
www.ncbi.nlm.n...
Krusemark, E. A., Campbell, W. K., Crowe, M. L., & Miller, J. D. (2018). Comparing self-report measures of grandiose narcissism, vulnerable narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder in a male offender sample. Psychological Assessment, 30(7), 984-990.
Raskin, R., & Novacek, J. (1991). Narcissism and the use of fantasy. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 47(4), 490-499.

[@carolynkepler2826]

From a very young age(3-4) I fantasized. As my life got more chaotic, I went deeper into them, removing myself from the world around me. It was often the only place I felt loved and cared for. In my fantasies, I was respected and admired. I didn’t have to prove my worth. I think I got addicted to them. It became the only place I wanted to be. I took low paying, boring jobs so I could be in my fantasy world and look busy. I’m now 66. All those stressors are gone now. I’m left with nothing to show for my life. All I did was survive. To what end, I really don’t know.

[@swordchild0013]

This is called Maladaptive daydreaming - it is more common than you think and a coping mechanism for a lot of people esp those who have had troubled childhoods

[@eligreen7925]

You are still alive so you have a chance to find out to what end

[@laurabeigh283]

That is exactly what my ex said. He is a porn addict but the porn addiction is just a symptom of his avoidant personality disorder. thank you for your comment. It’s helpful for me to see someone with the same thoughts and feelings as he had.

[@eligreen7925]

You are alive you are not dead you can help others please don't think that your life has come to an end the fantasy kept you alive now you can help other people

[@eligreen7925]

Do not give up on yourself you have something that you are on Earth for the fantasies helped you survive now you can do without them and help others

[@JustineBrownsBookshelf]

It seems to me that our culture fosters these kinds of disorders to a much greater degree than in the past. Media, advertising, and also educational philosophy encourages a preoccupation with success, prestige, being special, glamour and so on.

[@oftin_wong]

Read some myths of the past Everyone assured to be God like, the son of a God or to acheive god like results...nothing has changed in human nature

[@JustineBrownsBookshelf]

@@oftin_wong It’s true that nothing has changed in human nature. Human culture however varies in certain ways.

[@oftin_wong]

@@JustineBrownsBookshelf Yes, cultures are different ...?

[@JustineBrownsBookshelf]

@@oftin_wong over time. Our present culture in the West has some distinct features... though it may be we’re just in the decadent period of a civilisational cycle.

[@oftin_wong]

@@JustineBrownsBookshelf mmmmk

[@orinocoproductions5994]

I have these fantasies. They are so embarrassing. I only now realise what they are. It's a way of pumping up a very low self esteem or more accurately to get love and admiration that you didn't have when you were young. Basically feeling very unpopular and looking for that still. I always hate it. I know when I have these fantasies of achieving things it means I won't achieve them as I am satisfyong this need in my mind instead of putting in the effort. It really feels like the devils are laughing at me in this way. Mocking me with these fantasies. But I have alot of empathy. I also think these fantasies are a way of soothing childhood pain. I mean children fantasise till a certain age and then it becomes unacceptable.

[@agingchill9012]

This spotlighted a past relationship with a seemingly sweet-n-shy yet somehow troubled gal but who more likely wrestled with v-npd or perhaps discouraged-bpd. Even so, instead of remembering the relationship as a vexing casualty, I will now view it as a valuable learning tool. Thanks, very well worth watching again.

[@DominickDecocko]

Grandiose narcissist gal can act sweet and shy though... feel like female narcissists do that innocent act it’s more valuable to society and makes them invisible to normal everyday people. Everyone thinks she is some sort of angel but noo she scored highly extroverted and highly disagreeable on big five scale.

[@carolnahigian9518]

get Help; next time you spot bad guys a lot SOONER my friend...

[@SoPsyched]

You are very right, that there's some oscillation there, between the grandious and the vulnerable traits in NPD. I too observed it within the same clients, and I'm very fascinated to hear it's not just random observations. We know all disorders fall on a spectrum, and no single person is frozen in one state of their disorder, it does however seem peculiar seeing the switch in such a drastic way. Thank you as always for your insight, I'm a silent viewer but thought I should drop a comment to let you know how much your takes on different topics are appreciated!

[@gracew5895]

It's my observation too.

[@Memory_Blanks]

I've also observed this.

[@MultiA3b]

isn't this called 'hovering' and the vulnerability is an unconscious tactic to keep the dysfunction in place or in control and blind the subject? Kind of 'borderline' push/pull behaviour? Btw, I don't have a degree...so take my observations with some kilos of salt.

[@GeorgeAAspros]

SoPsyched I’m no professional but I have noticed both in my most recent ex. He would perceive my parents providing leniency with me as an act of kindness upon him. He’d balk about making $20-$50/hr but he’d have a two hour work order for an entire week. He always leaves out inconvenient parts of the stories to make himself appear like he’s in the right but all I’d usually need is one sentence which switches the dynamic. He’s also very introverted, extremely sensitive & inhibited by shame if I was to point out how something hurt my feelings. “You constantly remind me of everything I do wrong” is a common line of his, yet he’d also say “I don’t know how someone who loves me this much could find me so disinteresting” & often mentioned how I ask way more questions than anyone he’s met.

[@SoPsyched]

@@GeorgeAAspros it's great you noticed the behavioural patterns in him. Did you ever try to communicate your observings? He doesn't necessarily need to have this specific kind of personality disorder. But then again - the lable alone means nothing, so whether he has it or not, doesn't make a difference. What does, is, taking appropriate actions and seeking out help. Thank you for sharing your experience!

[@MultiA3b]

I come from a severe narcissistic family tree and discovered this at age 35 (3 years ago). My take on 'vulnerable' is that it is way more deceiving and creates co-dependents (me) who learned to listen to drama 24/7. The pain and recovery is done by really recognizing the drama and learn to not get caught up into this type of manipulation. It takes a while and can be done. A good book for me was 'Complex-PTSD from surviving to thriving'. It saved my life!

[@treasurem2491]

Soooooo true

[@lienlael3196]

You diagnosed me as a vulnerable type. Of course I am analysing myself based in your descriptions and my childhood experiences, I could be wrong. I make a tremendous efforts on daily basis to be in touch with reality, or at list be aware of reality. Perhaps that these last 12 consecutive years I've been isolated as a caregiver, felt neglected by close friends, etc. Is kinda hard sometimes because isolation play a lot of tricks in my mind. Hope and pray that awareness gives me the chance to find healing. Thank you so much Dr.Grande

[@sdeb3333]

I pray. Hope and pray that others also like you also wake up.

[@BunnyUK]

Dr. Grande, thank you for the explanation. More videos on differences between grandiose and vulnerable NPD would be very much appreciated!

[@kirstinstrand6292]

He said Vulnerable is Covert. And there is an enormous difference between the manifestation of characteristics between Covert and Grandiose.

[@camuscat123]

I would love to see whether there are certain differences in brain structure and function regarding those with a diagnosis of NPD and sub-clinical presentations. Thanks! That was fascinating!

[@gracew5895]

Me too !

[@catherine7890]

Excellent video. So so true a vulnerable narcissist will have fantasies of becoming an overt narcissist.

[@AntheaCarson]

Or you could say someone who doesn’t believe in himself aspiring to believe in himself. Something wrong with that? Also define realistic?

[@BeckBeckGo]

i wonder if any of them fantasize about becoming psychopaths? I don't think psychopaths think they're warriors of righteousness. They just do stuff because they want the outcome. Like "I want those shoes. Just gonna take them." whereas the narcissists will have some victimy-moralizing reason why it would be unjust for them not to take them. I wonder still.

[@whitestork3896]

Thank you. This video explained to me awkward behaviors of my ex-partner. They are a vulnerable narcissist. I could never understand why they would engage in outrageous fantasies and promises they couldn't possibly deliver and at times switch to a self-pity party. Now it makes sense. They were just living through a cycle of fantasy and struggle to become a grandiose narcissist. It was a vicious cycle and very damaging. I tried to help but it only got me hurt. Eventually I decided to leave. I wish I did it sooner.

[@imaginationturtle5447]

Hey, I just realised that I am one and have been abusing my partner for the past few years - what did you want from him? What would have made you stay?

[@whitestork3896]

@@imaginationturtle5447 I'm not going to help you abuse them better

[@imaginationturtle5447]

@@whitestork3896 i really want to change. I can see how I have been deceiving myself my whole life and how I am actually pretty shit, entitled, rude etc. to be honest it is so unbelievable. My partner says dwelling in guilt and self loathing/shame etc is still narcissistic and I need to realise what I am actually doing to him. I struggle to know how not to be self-centred and I can see how I have been chasing grandiosity every single day and basically deceiving myself and not meeting any of my partner’s needs and not knowing how it happens. I haven’t figured it out yet, I don’t fully see what I am doing to him. But I can see howHaving npd makes sense - i thought i was so caring and loving and kind and it always circles around to how it’s so hard and let’s explore my issues of treating you like shit. It’s been two days since my partner told me I have npd and he is not joking - it’s shocking to me (of course) how I just cannot comfort him (I have made ‘sorry’ a traumatic phrase for him) and its because I can’t stop being self centred. I see how sweet and kind he has been while I thought he was abusing me and I had cptsd, and after how I felt so entitled to forgiveness etc. it is disgusting. I don’t want to be like this. I’m okay with being normal or even less than average (which I truly am) if it means being a kind person and acting in line with reality. I can see how shitty I have been and I cannot believe it. He says he wants to stay with me if I can get over myself and my ego. I really do love him so much and care about his pain and feel obligated to it, outside of my ego I can see how hurt he is and how I can choose to show up for him without being deluded that i am a good partner - he deserves at least that. I really want to change and will do more and more research, i know it’s possible to learn how to grow your empathy and not be a total selfish piece of shit. What were you begging your partner to change that he did not care about or actually do? What were your needs? I am so sorry for asking Edit: caught myself with that last line. It’s more about how I feel bad and sorry to ask you than your feelings (though I do care about your feelings and I’m hlad you’re no longer in an abusive relationship)

[@imaginationturtle5447]

@@whitestork3896 you were right. I vould have stayed and been better but I chose to leave

[@ashishsharma-dg9me]

After listening Your videos, I am sure i m a vulnerable narcissist... Took a lot of courage to write this !!! Your Fantasies examples are spot on!!! I hope to transform myself by gaining insight through your videos 🙂

[@runwiththewind3281]

Dr Grande, thank you for helping me understand

[@LaMaestra2102]

It so happens that someone very close to me is afflicted with verbose redemption fantasies about an abusive father whose "ass she kicked" and who was "afraid of her". None of the fantasies she spins are true or even possible. 😔 This was particularly interesting to me. It's way more than sad what abuse can do to a person. Thank you, Dr. Grande.

[@maidenmarian1]

I just wrote a long comment and then lost it because I am on my phone. Your videos are VERY HELPFUL. I WILL TRY TO REWRITE IT WHEN I HAVE MORE ENERGY. thank you so much!

[@لمىالشريف-غ8ك]

I know narcissists can be dangerous exploitative people. Your aim is to inform and spread awareness. I'm sorry Dr. Grande Please keep doing what you do. Your work is highly appreciated

[@FewFew77]

Is it narcissistic to have fantasies of being a superhero or having a dream job like a star athlete? On the one hand, these sound like fantasies of unlimited success, but on the other, fantasy by definition is supposed to be greater than reality. Is it really narcissistic to dream big?

[@dont_harsh_my_mellow]

I was thinking pretty much the same line. The fantasies that kept being described sound like what is usually fantasized about. Bc you know...it's a FANTASY. IDK the descriptions sound very much like normal things ppl like to think about.

[@gracechan3039]

My cousin is a grandiose narc and he has convinced my brother that they’re going to launch a dating app in asia that will be a massive success. Neither have any experience with running a business in Asia or apps. They’re both from Europe. :/ my brother has bought into it though. That’s what a fantasy looks like.

[@NimbusDX]

May Athena To a layperson “fantasies of unlimited success” *sounds* like a normal thing, but it is not. It is not just thinking “Wow it would be cool to be a hero/star athlete/CEO”. That is a normal fantasy. That is not a delusion of grandeur. However, people with NPD may think to themselves “I totally have what it takes to become a CEO. It’s only a matter of time before I take over this whole company! People just don’t recognize how special and important I am or else I would already be in charge around here.” That is not a normal fantasy. It’s delusional.

[@dont_harsh_my_mellow]

@@NimbusDX Ooooh. Okay. Bc sometimes I'm like "what would I do if I had superpowers?" or "Fudge, I could have said THIS in the argument and have gotten the upper hand!" and started feeling like shit about it lol. Bc at the end of the day, these are fantasies about being special or having a talent. Bit confusing to tell the difference.

[@FewFew77]

@@NimbusDX Thank you for clearing that up. The symptom "Has fantasies of unlimited success" can be interpreted so many ways if not explained further.

[@Cheryliiina]

I was waiting for you to talk about fantasies of spiritual superiority.

[@annewrites...8385]

Such helpful content. Frankly, it explains behaviour that could be described as bizarre unless contextualised by narcissistic fantasy. Thank you.

[@pearlyq3560]

Fascinating ideas as usual. Thank you!!

[@Gigiaaron56]

Love you. Aside from narcissism, there is a common theme with oppressor groups, be it racism, bigotry, misoginy, impiety...they can easily fall under that spectrum.

[@cherylbaker3319]

Thank you for taking your time in creating all of your content, it has been such a greatly valued resource for me in both personal and professional manners, and appreciative as always for your insight, expertise and then to actively process all into very in depth, understandable and engaging online content here. It is so truly valued, and so very informative, helping me as said, in multiple areas within my own life. Thank you for sharing all you do with every video you create, I have been educated, given topics to consume, and better my learning onwards in this ever evolving sphere of which deeply I find joy in developing myself in all ways with such greatly sourced and accessible freely too, which is again so very much appreciated. Thank you Dr Grande.

[@DrGrande]

Thank you so much for your kind words - I appreciate your thoughtfulness!

[@dunebuggyattack1974]

Another Great video, Dr. Todd! I really liked the part when you started talking about vulnerable narcissism fantasies in popular culture and envisioned you doing a spin-off channel where you analyze popular movie tropes and compare them to DSM typologies. I would totally subscribe! First episode: Revenge Of The Nerds?

[@clng5550]

reminds me of the Black Mirror episode USS Callister

[@tim5417]

Thanks for another very enlightening video! I got quite surprised when you mentioned your experience of vulnerable narcissists desiring (so to speak) to become grandiose narcissists, since that has been one of my pet theories as a layman :). And it makes sense to me from another viewpoint; if vulnerable narcissists are more psychologically struggling (doubting, being neurotic etc) it would be more psychologically beneficial (less painful) for them to be less of that, and instead, more overt and grandiose.

[@Sternliihx3]

Hi Dr. Grande, thank you for this video! Could you do one about a "case study example" of schizotypal personality disorder?

[@scarlett-belle1448]

Very helpful, excellent . Thank you Doc! From yr London fan! Seriously , Dr. Grande, you are brilliant. x

[@AlastorTheNPDemon]

Alright... I really am trying to fight the inductive reasoning here that I'm so predisposed to, but this description you've got here of the vulnerable narcissist fits me, especially that last theme. I'm not sure how badly I got it in childhood, yet here I am with aspirations of dominance and obsessive past revisionist fantasies since childhood. As for the rejection thing, I was never interested in a "relationship" and I haven't had any real friends for years, but for all the effort I put into trying to impress others, I sure do get ignored a lot! If I catch hell for being rude in a place, or suspect I may, I can't bring myself to showing my face there again for a while. I'm doing it to myself, out of fear. In any case, I like your videos on these personality disorders. Very insightful and professionally done such that the facts are there without some effed up personal narrative staining it. Kudos.

[@edgreen8140]

Justine I would agree as a retired clinician. The grandious are happier in life because the people around them see a doctor or lawyer as a valuable thing. The vulnerable is about the world didn't see my greatness. I have seen malignant vulnerable s who also are antisocial and machievellian. So it's a great degree and the vulnerable could be quite vindictive towards others to add the antisocial stuff. They would fantasies about harming others or going after people who have done them wrong. Grandious I'm being recognized for being a wonderful surgeon.

[@stefdiazdiaz7067]

i bet almost all true narcissist would preffer to think of themselves as "grandious" instead of "vulnerable"

[@caitm8209]

touche

[@dj-dq4lr]

Interesting...the mother and sister I view do shift along the spectrum. If things are going well more grandiose if/when things are usual/going poorly or stationary the victim/poor me

[@latinaalma1947]

You are SO right about movies based on redemption and revenge for people who have felt vulnerable earlier in life....one can see WHY a vulnerable narcissist would work hard to overcome what they once saw as their limitations and the fantasies would be highly motivating.....the overweight girl who loses the weight go to her high school reunion and wow all the guys who wouldnt date her and to get revenge with the mean girls....many many popular themes stem from insecurites, overcoming these insecurites and an often over idealized estimation and fantasy of how terrific life will be once they see themselves as winners, etc I have treated depression in women who lost weight thinking everything about their lives would change once they lost weight and then being depressed by their own unrealistic expectations. Many fantasies and issues women have are around appearance. Women recognize that for men, a womans appearance is a major component of a womans attraction. Young women, and increasingly our culture has morphed into middle aged ones, getting lots of procedures to in their minds, upgrade their appearance to attract a man.Plastic surgery has developed less and less invasive procedures over the last two decades and women dont wait til 50 or 60 to get procedures done as they once did...mini lifts, botox and a PLETHORA of procedures have proliferated...so have videos and bloggers geared completely to appearance. I have seen a radical shift in these issues in the past 20 years. We dont see any on how to attract a man by getting your personality issues improved through therapy, the ones that drive men away, like an obsession with appearance, desperation to find a man with the MEANS and willingness to help them constantly tweak their appearance. Men kncreasingly are sayi g they meet too many wlmen who are high maintenance when tjey are dating...they say they want women who care as much about them as they do about their own appearance etc. They say they want a woman they can relax and enjoy life with. I see in wlmen especiaññy but in some men too. increasingly LESS acceptance of normal processes like aging, slow changes in appearance...in some women fears of aging and a normal less youthful appearance may not reach clinical levels of obsession amd compulsion, but they are haunted by a cloud over their life satisfaction and they have difficulties maintaining or making new relationships due to the amount of thought, concern, insecurity etc thay have around issues of appearance. The culture is changing and getting more intense around superficial issues of appearance....more orthodonture, more grinding down of teeth replacing them with posted reconstructions...we didnt see braces on 50 yr olds in the past. Lasix eye surgery at 40. Women in their 30s and late 20s getting Botox and other injectables. Instead of major facelifts at 60, now we have smaller surgical procedures starting earlier and earlier, thread implants etc etc many more botched procedures needing correction etc. I see far more pain: psychological, long term physical pain from permanent nerve damage....even some addiction to pain relivers beginning with botched cosmetic procedures, financial and relationship pain over this increased focus on appearance at earlier and earlier and later and later ages...you really hit on something here.

[@tittytotty9948]

Can you make a video about the halo effect and how accurate it is?

[@fishstix1900]

Perhaps you have covered this but if not could you do a video explaining what the tipping point of vulnerable narcissism and grandiose where it becomes pathological?

[@nickidaisyreddwoodd5837]

I don't think you can put a definite threshold into this. It's a very gradual shift.

[@GeorgideMarne]

In my experience growing up with a pathological narc mother, the level is that of total lack of empathy and manipulation of all info given or emotions. The "lesser" types have moments of empathy or lower levels of manipulation, for example only to gain status or money, but not in all areas. Always check the manipulation and sadism factor when assess toxic people. I've worked with some of lesser types, but in a controlled manner, as in, we have the same objective at work but no personal info ever given, cause that was their playing field...

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Did Dr Grande imply that all Coverts at some point become Grandiose or MALIGNANT? What is the difference between Malignant and Grandiose?

[@chaostheory16]

Pathological narcissism involves dysfunctional object relations. That is, boundaries between self and other are blurred and not intact. That leads to a need to feel superior to the other to matter. If you don’t see a clear difference between self and other, you need to separate yourself in some way, so the natural tendency (since feeling inferior, well, feels worse) is to feel better than or more special than the other. That requires excessive admiration and contingent self-esteem. Healthy “narcissism” does not have a highly contingent self-esteem because object relations are intact. It doesn’t mean people don’t have any issues with this, because for example object relations in certain contexts may be slightly dysfunctional due to, for example, trauma or other insecurities. But it doesn’t usually severely impact their lives or the lives of those around them.

[@Sixpoint7five]

@@GeorgideMarne this is fascinating surprised no replies yet. I've not seen much discourse on "levels" as I've been struggling heavily with trying to distinguish if some of the good we experienced together is genuine or was it all manipulation.

[@kirstinstrand6292]

What was most interesting was that this gave me an opportunity to access my own character and my fantasies. Regardless of having what I, today, would call ineffectual parenting, coming from a totally Dysfunctional parental home, I somehow survived, sorta. I always felt empathy for those less fortunate than I. I was never bullied and I doubt I would have allowed it. But I was as tall as most boys and athletic. My only inadequacy was not being able to concentrate in school, following grade school, therefore I became boy crazy. Having low self esteem is easy to disguise, complicating so much. I suppose this is where self confidence or awareness develops or it doesn't. We usually fake it until we make it. My entire adolescence was spent faking it...and this has been my entire life since the 7th grade. My pursuit was for self understanding and betterment of my capacity to provide for myself financially. I was raised with denial of openness and honesty, therefore, I had no interest in grandiose fantasies or a pretend life that would make myself feel or look better. I do remember a dream in which I was holding onto a rock and flying in the sky. But something shot me down and I had to come down to Earth. I was in my early 20's. So obviously I did have some unreality happening, somewhere, somehow. I believe this dream gave me the impetus to begin looking at my dreams seriously. (Hey! I'm yakking just like a Grandiose Narc...maybe I'm a different breed of one. Ya think?)

[@totallyautomatic0]

This is one of the best videos on KZbin period.

[@kimberlyfoster7148]

So agree with you. I have daily interactions with one of each type and you described them perfectly.

[@lunacouer]

I kinda chuckled a bit about the vulnerable narcissist fantasy of "I'll show them", because this is how tons of women cope with breakups. Get a new haircut, start working out, take up interesting hobbies, buy new clothes, etc, initially from a place of "They'll see what they're missing now". In fact, it's greatly encouraged in friend groups ("You were too good for them, they'll regret it now that you're gone, they'll come crawling back"). Granted, the hope is that eventually, it moves from "I'll show them what they're missing", in that vulnerable state, to "I feel better about myself now, I'm ready to move on with my life", versus staying in that place for years. But this isn't just in movies - it's everywhere.

[@marooqi]

That is not the kind he was talking about, that is not this at all, however familiar it sounds as that tactic to coping with the loss and getting over it, that would be healthy. I think covert narcissists are FANTASIZING, but really they are into finding sympathetic people to show how victimized they were, it was not their fault, to be validated in their pain and why its been 3 decades and they still have fresh ways of recognizing their bitterness, rather than see how they may have had a hand in the breakup

[@lunacouer]

@@marooqi I agree, and I appreciate your comment showing the differences. I was referring to when he talked about how interesting it was, starting at 18:08, that the vulnerable narcissistic fantasy of revenge and redemption is a common trope in movies. I was just pointing out that it's very common in American life, too, especially with breakups. But I hear what you're saying, about how one version is healthy, because the person grieves, copes, and moves on, whereas a narcissist will still be stuck in it 30 years later.

[@chaostheory16]

I think the breakup thing is healthy as the other commenter said. When I rejected someone (something which I’m perversely proud of as a result of my narcissistic traits), he told me his friends all told him he’s too good for me anyway, who am I to reject him, I’m not that special, etc. He is certainly not pathological. It’s just something healthy people need sometimes to shore up self esteem and help them move on.

[@nickidaisyreddwoodd5837]

I have vulnerable narcissism. Almost all humans fall into the narcissism ranges because it's a defense mechanism against the shame and hurt from childhood. A counter reaction towards in my case a cold mother when I as an adult woman have to be my own mother now and love my body excessively ha maybe put more effort into it than a non neurotic person would. My brother has grandiose narcissism. What is happening in my family overseas is chaos. I am in the middle of ultra narcissistic people discussing inheritance and it is Not fun at all. Productive criticism from me towards them leads to zero decent outcome. The car turning only right is a good metaphor for this. In my case it appears to be even less doable than the car that only turns right. I think the tires are also out of air. Jiddu Krishnamurti discussed this with David Bohm and David Shainberg in Brockwood Park, England in 1975 and David Shainberg called it the yank back effect. One can only go so far before being yanked back. The tolerance zone is very narrowed down to where I have no idea how to move forward in this tippi toeing scenario.

[@pocoeagle2]

Fascinating video. Thanks Dr. Grande 😃

[@AMM3.]

Holy crap Dr Grande. You have assisted me in cracking the safe that is my mother in law. I'm not going to tell my husband about the fact you just perfectly described her and her behaviour, in a few concentrated videos! Because he's been trying to explain it for almost 15 years now 😂 He totally has her figured out, he just couldn't transfer that knowledge to me in any format I could understand. We have the most toxic relationship (but you already knew that 😂) I've just wanted peace. Which has been close to WWIII... Any tactic I've tried from my perspective has blown up in my face. I knew I wasn't doing something right (approaching from my perspective,approach our personalities couldn't be more different. It's seriously so much better now.

[@kiss4strawberry]

How do I know for sure that I don't have vulnerable narcissism? I have fantasies in which I finally prove myself to people because in reality I'm really shy and introverted. I do have fantasies of becoming more extroverted and more interesting, I imagine myself as the "class clown" the one who always makes other laugh but I'm still somewhat in the center of attention in those fantasies. I'm not vengeful though, I rarely hold a grudge. But when something happens and I'm supposed to show myself, my abilities etc I shy away and retreat myself. In reality I'm uncomfortable with being in the center of attention even though I fantasize about it. I'm uncomfortable when people compliment me in front of large number of people, I feel kind of ashamed. Sometimes I think people are thinking about me but often in a negative way, I do have fantasies of people hurting me because I'm a masochist... I don't know what to think, I'm really confused.

[@SweetiePieTweety]

kiss4strawberry I would focus attention on learning the red flags of a narcissist or borderline. You seem to be ripe for falling for these types because they exhibit the "characteristics" you desire in moments, but they false flags. I too am shy and am drawn to those who are outgoing and confident. I feel incompetent so in the past I was drawn to those who displayed Narcissistic traits. Disastrous ends all! If you are young you may find that once you find an environment where you succeed and are accepted for who you are such as work you may blossom and not be so "shy". This was true for me. Don't mean to impose myself into another, but your text resonated. Take what fits and discard the rest! I was called shy all my school years but no one could call me shy in my 30-50's! Give yourself some space to grow into who you are in a healthy environment (not school)

[@momoshiggles3631]

I would get into therapy ASAP with these concerns and see if it’s possible to work on these issues.

[@LitcheTheArsm]

Maybe look up avoidant personality disorder? Also remember that having a few narcissitic traits don't mean having narcissitic personality disorder. Best of luck on your personal path to improving your mental health dear!

[@danlhendl]

Very interesting, fascinating, educational well presented material . Thanks

[@NTraveller]

I agree. The only note I'd like to make is that in Big 5 extraversion equals optimism, and introversion equals pessimism. And no surprise that an optimist is grandiose in his thinking (making a grandiose narcissist), and pessimist keeps sliding into depressions (making a depressive narcissist)

[@AstraLydia]

I just wanted the 400th comment - and say that these videos are soon informative, thanks Doc!

[@dont_harsh_my_mellow]

I'm confused. The fantasies actually sound like normal things to an extent. We've all thought about things we can say and do to get the upper hand in a conversation. We all thought about getting revenge on people who treat us cruelly. My question is just a matter of where do you draw the line between normal thoughts and narcissism?

[@dont_harsh_my_mellow]

curvyquill I don’t think what you used as an example with the walking is narcissism. I really think what you’re describing is something someone is very self conscious over. Some folks will try hiding their big ears. I don’t think when they do that it means narcissism. Self consciousness is not narcissism. Anxiety isn’t narcissism. Please don’t play psychologist when you don’t know what you’re talking about. 🥺❤️

[@chaostheory16]

Narcissism involves defective object relations and thus the need to feel superior and entitled. I don’t think it’s worth obsessing over the distinction between normal and pathological fantasy. After all, avoidant personalities also fantasize and have imaginary friends. It’s only when it affects your life or the lives of those around you, and when it involves other NPD traits, that it becomes an issue.

[@NikkiGregory]

From what I've seen they actually try to live out these thoughts.

[@Tele999zzz]

I agree. Yes the doctor has experience of talking with V narcissists about their fantasies, but ironically, how much experience does he have with talking to "normal" people about theirs? (A twist on survivor bias)

[@ladymargaret778]

This is interesting for me because i wondered about a person i knew who i suspected was on the narc spectrum, however i started to doubt this was the case due to an increase in quite aggressive behavior and comments over the course of years. In time they became more assertive and condescending and your theory of the conversion from vulnurable to grandiose helps me to see that regardless; it is still very possibly narcissism.

[@virtue_signal_]

Excellent lighting and camera work. Nice background too!

[@SK_TorON]

"Themes of rejection and redemption": that's exactly it! I should have heard that explanation earlier, before I heard from my former friend statements like "They destroyed my country, and I came to this country to take revenge", "People get promoted up to the level of their incompetence", "I am glad that conflict is finished; it could have got really ugly, because I don't lose fights", and - to top it all - "You know who else has a character similar to mine?... Jesus Christ". All of that would be said with a typically mournful and stoic gaze into the horizon. There were many other such examples, as well as a lot of gaslighting. It astonishes me now how brainwashed I must have been to keep stifling my initial shock at such statements and to rationalize them to myself as just awkward jokes or as signs of his sensitivity. I took me several years to finally witness that wallop of hatred and aggression that he was hiding inside, even trying to hide it from himself.

[@Anastashya]

Very interesting as always, Dr Grande. Thank you ☺️

[@alisaaustin8431]

A narcissistic relative of mine will actually track people down who wronged him when he was a kid. He is in his 50s.

[@mariarivero9567]

Very good and thought provoking thanks Dr. Grande!

[@puresoul1368]

Wao this is quite on the spot. The vulnerable can actual transition into the grandiose coz av seen evolve before my eyes. Once appeared taking the back position avoiding being noticed and keeping a low profile but as he worked so hard at his work and he became noticed he got promoted more. Then as he rose to managerial position his demeanor changed. He became very haughty, arrogant with his head tilted above as it to say he was equal with God or something like that. It waa kind of revealed yo me as I watched conduct himself. Thats when I began to search out what was with him and the so called mask was falling off and he dint seem to care. Have noted the rejection which he has been fulfilling on me and the revenge is a major one for them. Unfortunately there were issues at work which led to being suspected, theres court case involved and its as if hes gone back to being vulnerable. I concur with what has been discussed.

[@ergosum5001]

Every time I watch one of these videos, I come away feeling like I'm some kind of mentally ill monster. Is it supposed to generate that effect? Anyone else feel similar?

[@p.bamygdala2139]

To the OP, the comment above me is likely sarcastic so don't worry. Yes, I too feel that these videos are far too vague in defining the scope and scale of things like "fantasizing". I wish the host would elaborate on things such as how much fantasizing is too much, vs how much is healthy and normal. For example, occasionally imagining an ideal sexual parter or dream job seems very common, and completely reasonable.

[@ewajackowska4115]

As a newly diagnosed with vulnerable narcissistic personality disorder, and the heaviness of the diagnose, and the overall flow of negative comments is really difficult to cope with. It feels like after last Friday, when the words had been said, I suddenly became less human and more a monster. It is difficult enough to realize, that there's a difficult and lengthy road to (questionable) recovery, the comments dehumanize my problems and make me feel thst my thoughts and actions are inhumane. I feel thst my fait is doomed from the start by the society, only because I am narcissistic.

[@maryfreeman3341]

@@ewajackowska4115 No you are not inhuman. If we hadn't had Narsasists, many things would not have happened. Great leaders use their narsasasistic traits to get uncomfortable things done in dire circumstances. Such as Churchill. The main thing is to listen to others around you and subtally change some of your reactions to situations and interactions to help everone working with you be comfortable enough to also succeed. You have already done a positive start by taking therapy.

[@rachelsimbhu4383]

Yep ! Same with me ! Insane isn't it !!

[@PrivateAckbar]

If you had npd you would have VERY dysfunctional relationships.

[@Jeremy_the_bot]

A close friend of 13 years just cut me off after I told him I couldn't listen to him talk about being an author anymore. It was a fantasy he had created for himself and that he claimed to be living for years. Maybe he would get a small paid gig here or there but it consumed every Interaction he had with human beings. I've been trying to understand why this criticism made him want to end our friendship. But these videos are really helping me grasp the situation.

[@francesbernard2445]

Dr. Grande all this makes sense. The most outrageous narcissistic fantasy I have heard so far is when I heard a very rich man who owns at least one large yacht say to the public that ahead of time he can in a dream see his what his next child [or grandchild[ren] are going to look like.

[@mystijkissler8183]

Married to an extreme Grandiose. His fantasies used to drive me crazy because I thought he was really going to try for his fantasy, and the fantasies were way out of the park. His mother told me; "Just don't take his fantasies seriously". Well, he was the son of a Major General at the Pentagon and then retired, became a Big Pharma CEO, therefore, the Golden Child, and the unfamiliar family dynamic was truly pathological - Looking back and healing. There was a Repetition cycle that became clear after years and after final Discard of me. Every time he would assuredly fail, the parents rescued him by picking him up brushing him off and giving him (us) a fresh start, over n over, and my ex could play his dad like a fiddle; a very toxic dance between them hard, and yrs for me to see. I've seen the ex walk in his parent's house with a certain "aire", (signal) that would make his General Father submissive to him like walking on eggshells. Just Bizzare.

[@melindac3368]

I was married to one, too, and he also used "signals" when wanting to manipulate his parents. He never failed to make them do what he wanted. He was an only child, and I suppose that had something to do with the dynamic in that family. It was so fascinating to watch them.

[@mehere8228]

@@melindac3368 The dance.

[@catielove5096]

Super helpful for understanding and correcting the 'InflictedonAnother' part of having had a Facticious disordered Mum

[@dvegas]

💯 Rescripting the past for vulnerable narcissists!!

[@j012275]

One thing, with a shy narsisist in a romantic relationship, is there a delusion in blaming the other person? Say I see my partner depressed, I ask what is bothering you, would you like to see a counselor, and at the end be told you didn't care. The other situation being self improvement, she decides to do a thing for betterment, I say awesome, and when things get tough I say you can do this, then get the you never cared for me. To note after it all when I did finally say I don't care about you at all, the arrogant of I know what I'm doing went back to the feel bad for me can't you see what all I am doing? I can see the similar traits in borderline. It has got to be difficult attempting to diagnose for a treatment.

[@caitm8209]

sounds pretty BPD to me.

[@lizliz8195]

This video validates my research on my coward narc husband. A step uncle (new) once told him during a gathering that he should quit his new business that he is making a mistake. My husband has just ventured into business at that time. I remember years later my husband told me how wrong that step uncle was that he made a jealous remark and gave bad advice and must have come from bad intention to make my husband give up on his business and wanted my husband to fail. And then my husband said look at me now, im successful and i proved that step uncle wrong and he gave malicious advice years before and i proved him wrong. It was very strange and very bothering to me how my husband emphasized that him working hard and being successful as a result and connects this achievement to come from a motivation to prove somebody wrong. I thought working hard is for own goal and own self and own satisfaction. But then i just emphatised and listen to him expressing himself. Because i love communicating with him at that time. Because i didnt know what i was dealing with at that time. My point is my husband was bitter and he remember years ago what happened in the exchange.

[@LuvGodLuvPpl]

Love these videos!

[@Urlocallordandsavior]

I agreed with what the commenter down below said about consumer culture being a prime conduit for these disorders, but I'll also add that the internet and social media is an even more omnipresent conduit than that.

[@jemmysmith8661]

I love these videos and the breakdown is clear and concise--My main questions and concern is for overlapping traits/behaviors between narcissism , bipolar disorder, sociopathic tendencies etc. Even when Dr Grande separated them they seem like symptoms could overlap and difficult to discern what the person is suffering from. Also the fantasies explained seem like they could apply to a person without narcissistic personality disorder "fantasies of being in a position of power" "sense of entitlement". Superficial charm is also just about any man working in business or sales..you have to put on a mask for clients for example.

[@shannonluck5066]

Doc, I really appreciate you covering the oscillation between Vulnerable and Grandiose Narcissism... I definitely saw that with mine 😮 He wasn't shy or lazy... I didn't see much exploitation either... Nevertheless he was quite selfish interpersonally especially when it came to constantly wanting attention and hopping social situations... 😅

[@paulronk9694]

What i have noticed is that there seems to be a desire to fantasize about success, such as how to spend the money after winning the lottery. Also, if there was money enough, where to travel, and how would the travel happen, but extravagantly. These fantasies often happen while awake late at night, in periods of anxiety, and usually happen in order to quash the anxiety. That's happening with "apparent" covert narc.

[@fightswithspirits915]

Here's my feedback since you asked, but probably already know. Just as I have traits of narcissism, a narcissist can have the pathology but have traits they have adopted. For example, my ex didn't care about her appearance. Wore old clothes to the office. When I asked why she didn't have any concerns for a more professional appearance, she went out and bought some new clothes for the office. Since I now know she was manipulating me, even the clothing may have been part of some bigger deception to enforce the mask of purity. But it did happen.

[@Rev_GC]

Oh, wow! That last fantasy for vulnerable narcissism made a few things fall into place.... Over 6 months I watched my narcissist change to grandiose.... The abuse changed and went to way more confrontational and violent.

[@chaostheory16]

Thank you for this. Can you please do a video of vulnerable narcissism and rejection? I have narcissistic (and borderline) traits, and when I feel rejected, I go into a spiral of shame, self-hatred, worthlessness, and anger/rage. I’ve also always had extreme sensitivity to rejection (supposedly this is associated with ADHD, which I believe I have). Thus, I never put myself out there. I’d really appreciate a video about this. I’m a male, FWIW.

[@dpetinatos]

What does FWIW mean? Interesting comments from two years ago. Another Dr has stated that the personality disorders are associated with Anxious Attachment. Your point also about Adhd and Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria is very true and appropriate. I wonder whether Dr. Grande has addressed your request. How would I learn about it?

[@serendipitous_synchronicity]

Thought provoking as always! Thank you Dr Grande 😀

[@DrGrande]

You're welcome!

[@j012275]

Wow, thank you, that really explains a lot. Thank you so much.

[@simikatra3434]

My favourite fantasy is being a time traveller, to see where we go.. where we have been, my passion is geology( geologists are time travellers 😂 ) and it's incredible, our earth, it's beautiful 💖

[@colleenjohnson9013]

Great explanation … thanks for sharing!

[@kingkong8974]

My fantasies were mostly about having a normal life hahaha. I seem to have mostly cluster b traits and a few from cluster a and c

[@ms.x1669]

I fantasize about clothes and money. I am so scared 😢😢😂😂

[@BeckBeckGo]

I don't think that's unrealistic. Everyone deserves to be content. If we all were, i think the world would be chill.

[@zente7]

Thank you for the video, Dr. Grande. I'm fascinated by the distinction you've traced between the time-orientation of the fantasy theme. I've skimmed the two papers you mention and only found the reference for the future-oriented fantasies. What is the main bibliographical reference for the connection between fantasies and time? More videos in this direction would be greatly welcome!! :) Thank you in advance for your help

[@BenetbenetLive]

I sometimes wish I was a psychopath or a grandiose narcissist.. does this mean I'm a vulnerable narcissist? I'm very neurotic and wish I had confidence and less anxiety.. but I dont have alot of empathy, sympathy I have alot of and I help my friends as mutch as I can, but I also can be manipulative without realizing it...

[@BeckBeckGo]

I admit that psychopathy sounds appealing in some ways. I have a lot of fear, i'm jumpy. I hear they are not. As in, they literally don't have the same wiring for startle responses that the rest of us do. I hate being a bunny. I wish I was not. But i also hear psychopaths aren't wired for any of the other cool things we feel. I don't think I'd enjoy that. What else would there be to do except just acquire money or minions? What else could you do for fun? I'd rather be a bunny than a crocodile. Idk, it's a mixed bag.

[@pocoeagle2]

Dr. Grande, what are the most striking similarities and differences between vulnerable narcissism and BPD?

[@DrGrande]

Excellent question, I covered that here kzbin.info/www/bejne/imOWaoeBh92Xpas, but I may record another video on this topic -

[@serendipitous_synchronicity]

@@DrGrande I'm jumping on as many of your linked comments as I can 😃 many thanks!

[@cloudwalker7]

Wow I had no idea, I had an ex who had the exact example vulnerable narcissist fantasy! So interested, thanks for the content

[@jaymhill]

Thank you for the great content! I'm learning more from you than my clinical classes lol. This construct 'Vulnerable Narcissism' is new to me and I'm interested in studying it more. I'm curious what would be the typical behaviors associated with this? For example, we associate manipulation, greed, gas-lighting with Grandiose Narcissism, what would one expect to see exhibited from a person with this? (i.g. language, external actions, lack of actions, mannerisms, etc.) Thanks so much! 🙏🏾

[@nicorizzo5402]

From what I understand, vulnerable narcs have those same behaviors.

[@heatherd7422]

Z

[@johnmurdoch3083]

The closing Now i know when i talk about x there will be alot of x formula really works on everything

[@lilymcallister9751]

This may be too much to talk about generally but I would be very interested to know what type of careers narcissistic, or any of the ten DSM PDs, choose. Also, is there a coorelation to how much education the person would strive (not necessarily achieve), to achieve.

[@venusrising6554]

Late to the comments. But the vulnerable Narcissist outline fits my experience. including the switch to grandiose. Very late in life a family member who was bullied for years "snapped". They looked around at what other family had. Decided they wanted it. The results have been toxic beyond belief. All sense of right & wrong was discarded. The lies, manipulation, triangulation and rage have been off the charts. There's no dealing with her. The only thing that matters is what she wants. She doesn't care who she hurts to get it. It's been a total shock. And almost impossible to deal with.

[@nathantaylor9829]

This is so much better than a lot of the info flying around the Internet atm. Do you have a book suggestion? . (Ideally available on kindle)

[@JennySieck]

I'd love to know more about how and why a narcisst might evolve from an covert style to full blown NPD. Family patterns? Narcisstic injury? Unresolved issues? What makes this occur? Thanks for considering this video. As always your videos are super helpful. Thank you.

[@toristoddard3831]

Hi Dr. Grande can you do a video on if psychopaths are made or born? Also could you do more videos on narcissism bc I am trying to understand all forms of narcissism so I can protect myself. Videos on the way their minds work-how to better understand what’s going on in their heads so that we don’t take it personally. My parents are both narcs and my siblings and I are very affected...

[@kareemmefriend1293]

Very good observation!

[@fairwind8676]

i feel like society's admiration for certain individuals imposed that sense of inferiority/strive to be significant/great. it's really complicated to isolate and read correctly.

[@Sixpoint7five]

You might not find this that strange, or someone may have already suggested a similar phenomenon on KZbin platform. There are A LOT of channels dedicated to any mental health topic. The viewers comments influence the content focus, as well as criticism of content, which encourages improved research and accuracy of content. The idea is perhaps all of those producing, watching, commenting, etc, on a given psychological topic, could be sigificantly influencing the professional psychological community and a published concensus. That's pretty neat.

[@mjto_mojt]

I think I’m in a rough patch in my life again because I’m starting to research disorders... something I haven’t done since I was 13

[@malcolmwatt4866]

U-toob is the narcissist's dream come true. It's such a thrill being on the comment section for all the big nobodies (BN) a title that I earned from my dad before I got out of high school. The initials BN might also be rendered as bare naked or bad news. People hate/love me, what do you know.

[@Alexandru642]

half of people are undercover narcissist here typing: oh.. god help us and keep us away from those monsters 😂

[@Akshit.vats.]

ok

[@danlhendl]

Oh what's the difference between superficial charm and regular charm?

[@katieb.9556]

Dr grande, you’re the best. ❤️

[@DrGrande]

Thank you!!

[@MeadeSkeltonMusic]

What if you truly are special and unique, but perhaps people overlook your attributes ? Does that make you the bad guy ?

[@ajoseph87]

Conditions on Earth cannot be improved without many, many fantasies, though I suppose some people have the wrong ones. Finding the right fantasy is important.

[@kellyyork3898]

What would be the vulnerable fantasy theme of a vulnerable female theme.

[@YEDxFILMS]

I haven’t been diagnosed so take this as you will. Throughout I’ve always sorta had disdain for kids in stem and kids in IB. I had the intelligence to be in these programs, but I lacked the ambition to keep up with the work. ADHD probably was the cause and speaking on “revenge” my dream is to build a big tech company in which these same stem guys work for me.

[@fiftyshadesofgrey1991]

Narcissist's "confidence" is just over shown like an external image to public. It is never a true unbreakable confidence

[@user-zr4ci7oc9t]

this is so weird. I hope someone could reply to me on here? personal comment in coming. I realised I keep having the same thought processes over and over and that’s of having extreme fantasies of being successful, getting revenge on people who have rejected me in the past, etc. I fit all of the examples here, the majority of the time I imagine myself in the future as a skinnier, healthier, richer and more successful person than I am now and being able to shove it in everybody’s face. My thought processes are so normal to me that I can see someone and think of absurd situations where me dying, or compromising myself in some way will cause someone to ‘heal’ or ‘be happy’ and then I will be admired by a lot of people. I think about the people who bullied me in school and imagine all the ways I could have been successful, and while yes it could have been possible then and now, it’s pretty hard to attain. I have even thought to myself that if I was in somebody’s life maybe I could have saved them from taking their life, and I imagine myself as a god that this world just hasn’t discovered yet. I get so angry at the smallest amount of criticism or people not treating me good because it clashes with the thoughts I have in my mind. I isolate myself so frequently, purposefully have no friends, because I can’t handle how envious I feel over people, even at doctors appointments I get jealous over their job and feel like they’ve had everything given to them without effort, even though realistically these people have put a lot of effort. I’m a very shy person and have been researching a lot into covert narcissism and I fit so much of it..and what really gets me is my thoughts of success which I thought was normal and everyone had them forever. And yes, I find it very hard not writing “I” a lot because it’s hard for me to think about anybody but myself. I only like focusing on myself.

[@fightswithspirits915]

Your videos are so exacting it's almost unhealthy for me to know that much as about ex and her bestie who were tag teaming me very effectively so that I had no idea who was doing what and hwho was doing who. She had traits of covert, he had traits of grandiose. That they used to date was kept a secret kept me confused why they acted the way they did. Of course, I had no concept of these personality disorders at the time.

[@johngwinn838]

💯%. Thank you Dr G.

[@nightowl6260]

An introverted person is in a vulnerable state of existence in actuality. On a daily basis she/he is navigating a society that has an excess of manipulative, aggressive, extroverts. They best have a repertoire to call upon on to defend themselves in any encounter!