Narnia - Why Susan Deserved Better

[@TropeAnatomy]

Hi, been getting a few comments saying C.S. Lewis was working on an 8th book about Susan but died before he could finish it. And that "I should've mentioned this". I've researched the claim and it's just a made up thing on the internet with no source, that's why I didn't mention it. Unfortunately, many believe it to be true so here are some facts. He said several times that he was done with the series. Here are just 2 examples directly from his letters: “I’m afraid there will not be any more of them. You see, once a story stops telling itself to me inside my head-like a tap turned off-I can’t go on. And if I tried to, it would only sound forced. Anyway, seven is a good number.” - C.S. Lewis, 1959 “I’m afraid I’ve said all I had to say about Narnia, and there will be no more of these stories. But why don’t you try to write one yourself?” -C.S. Lewis, 1962 Secondly, he said himself he wasn't interested in writing Susans story because it was more of a grown up story than he wanted to write (as talked about in the video.) Lastly, he published each of the Narnia books just 1 year apart. He died in 1963, that is 7 years after the last Narnia book. People talk about his death as if it happened right after. No. We have seven years of him saying he was done with the series. I don't know why we need to make up something with no source, when we have several letters written by him that says the opposite. If he wanted to write Susans story, he would've. You can read more and see sources here: www.narniaweb.com/2022/01/why-c-s-lewis-stopped-writing-narnia-books/

[@a.westenholz4032]

People who love the books, will naturally want to extend that goodwill to the author. If most people agree that an ending for an otherwise much loved series is regrettably flawed in the way the Narnia books are, of course people would want to think Lewis himself would have the urge to fix it as they do. Sadly, I don't think he cared about Susan as a character the way the public did. And he had fulfilled his main purpose in writing the series as a Christian allegory and saw it as such, rather as an incomplete story. As a Christian allegory the story ends with self-righteousness judgmental cruelty, and he had no problem with that. Which is why so many people would like to believe otherwise.

[@HenHenProgrammerTheOneAndOnly]

I agree that seven is a good number

[@rmsgrey]

@@a.westenholz4032 "the story ends with self-righteousness judgmental cruelty" You have a very different reading of the story than I do. The text is quite explicit that when the world ends, everyone chooses whether to enter the door beside Aslan or to turn aside into the darkness, and the dwarves trapped in a shed of their own imagining are not only there of their own will; it's impossible to convince them that there's anything more there than the inside of a stable. Any judgement comes from people judging themselves, not from any external judgement being imposed. And as for cruelty, which would be crueler? Killing Susan off and condemning her to the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, or letting her live and have the opportunity to find her way to heaven after all? Letting the rest of the family into heaven, or sending them back to Earth to live and maybe fall from grace?

[@a.westenholz4032]

@@rmsgrey It is in the way her own family judges her for her supposed "sins" and the choice to depict them as blithely indifferent to her suffering while enjoying their own happy fate. While it may fit in with traditional Christian ideas of Heaven, it is not a very attractive picture of mercy, generosity, forgiveness, empathy towards others, etc. You have to be Christian to feel that this is justified and rationalize that despite all Susan had done in Narnia, nor that she was a bad person (lipstick and nylons do NOT make a person bad whatever Lewis' opinions were on that matter), for the single act of not believing in Narnia she was no longer worthy. Christianity has this gatekeeping policy when it comes to Heaven, most other religions don't. They only claim to help you ascend to the afterlife, but not that they have sole rights to it. In other words belief in most other religions is not a necessary condition to be granted access.

[@rmsgrey]

@@a.westenholz4032 A) Context matters. When the Pevensies were discussing Susan, they didn't know they were dead yet - all they knew was that they'd been brought back to Narnia (or rather, Narnia-adjacent). So far as they knew at that point, they were going to have a new adventure and then return to England the instant they left, and all Susan was missing out on was an adventure she probably wouldn't have enjoyed anyway, and definitely would have said she didn't want. Once they discover that they're dead, things are moving rapidly and there's no opportunity to reflect and have time to think "what about Susan?" any more than a kid visiting Disneyland for the first time would think about their classmates who didn't come on the same trip. It's only some hours after the end of the book that Lucy (it would be Lucy, of course) would sit down with Aslan and ask about Susan. And, of course, it's not that Susan is shut out of Aslan's Country - it's that she doesn't want to go. B) Emeth, the Calormene who spent his entire life doing good in Tash's name, was welcomed into Aslan's Country. Nothing to do with Christianity being the only way to get to Heaven, rather that it's Christ who brings people there, whether they called themselves Christian or not. Again, you're reading very different things from the text than I am.

[@declanmoran18]

I think for me the most infuriating part of the ending is that, like, she wasn't even wrong to deny it existed. She was thrown against her will into Narnia, only to fall slowly in love with it, only to be ripped out of it after 15 years, and then just as she's getting used to to the idea of living in England again she's brought back to Narnia for JUST long enough to get attached again, before being told she can never come back. How is getting on with your life in England, exactly as instructed, a bad thing? If i were in her position, i'd probably be so bitter and frustrated I'd do the same. Especially if my understanding was that i was never going to be able to go back.

[@TropeAnatomy]

Yeah I see it as her way of coping. Imagine spending decades of your adult life obsessing over this amazing fantasy land you visited as a child and can’t go back to. I’d be depressed.. I think straight up denying it happened might be a step too far, and there are ways she could’ve moved on without doing that. But I completely understand why she would and she isn’t evil for doing it. She felt shut out from Narnia (and she literally was), so she shut Narnia out.

[@SevCaswell]

@@TropeAnatomy One of the things you don't address in this treatment of Susan, is her portrayal in the Horse and His Boy. Susan is shown to have put Narnia in danger by her wish to get married and allowing the courtship of the Calormene Prince. Her apathy towards him being one of the catalysts for the attempted invasion.

[@aircastles1013]

Well said Declan!

[@OpenBiolabsGuy]

I want to not only second that, but also empathize with another group: The dwarves. They too get treated as an unkind allegory for atheists, but their position is well earned. They were lied to and abused by society, and when “the good guys” come along and try to recruit them the dwarves are fed the same lines that were used to deceive them in the first place as a goal post moving excuse: “Aslan isn’t a tame Lion.” In the end they are condemned, cut off from Heaven, because they won’t believe and won’t see. But they can’t believe and can’t see! They’re never given a reason to. They’ve only been hurt and abused and exploited, and the only solution they’ve been given is to do the thing that got them hurt again and blindly trust that they won’t be hurt again. That’s unreasonable. In the end they could only see, smell, and feel the inside of the barn and they’re blamed for it. That’s not fair. If “Doubting Thomas,” the apostle of Jesus, got the opportunity to put his hands in the nail and spear wounds of Jesus, after resurrection, like he wanted to and was not cut off from Heaven, then why not the Dwarves? Why not anyone else who doubts and asks for proof? It’s not fair to be told to keep an eye out for “wolves in sheep’s clothing” and then to be told to “not see (God) and believe (other people who talk about God whose access to God is the same as yours)”. Especially not in a world filled with con artists and cult leaders who use your belief in God to manipulate, exploit, and hurt you.

[@hinasakukimi]

@@SevCaswell i do feel like lewis had a weird thing about feminine women

[@IsabelGarcia-nl3mi]

But, it was normal that Susan had an interest in growing up, in the stockings and lipstick, she grew up in the war and being the second mother figure of her brothers, a character and person like that feels a huge responsibility, to the extent that, even though she was only 12 years old, she wished to be older, to be able to protect them, and pretend to be more mature. But, that was not her fault, to be punished for loving her brothers and being their protector... is so cruel

[@littlesongbird1]

To be fair I think Susan was always going to be the agnostic one. In the Dawn Treader she got to go to the America because she was "old for age".

[@christianealshut1123]

It was not so much nylons and lipstick and invitations but nylons and lipstick and invitations at the expense of everything else. But I agree it was unfair to pair that up with her disbelief in Narnia. I think people would not complain as much about it if the statement had simply been that she no longer believed in Narnia, and left it at that. Also, there is one other point - Susan is not only the one who gets excluded from Narnia at the end of the series, she is also one of the first who gets told, in Prince Caspiam, that she cannot return to Narnia a third time because she's now "too old" i.e. entering puberty. Perhaps she would have needed Narnia a little while longer and felt unjustly excluded from it? In Price Caspian she does not exactly come across as an atheist, but certainly an agnostic - she refuses to believe as long as she does not have "proof" but is converted quickly once she sees Aslan again. Perhaps her over-emphasis on nylons and lipsticks and invitations was a reaction precisely to that initial exclusion? She may have misunderstood her initial exclusion from Narnia as a signal that she should now think of other things, so she did. It's awfully arbitrary to say that you're excluded from going to Narnia as soon as you are thirteen or fourteen...

[@rachelrasmussen1101]

I don't think there is any literary evidence she wanted to grow up to protect her siblings. On the contrary, she seems to want to grow up to escape them.

[@rachelrasmussen1101]

@@christianealshut1123 but of course Lewis had to exclude grown ups from Narnia. Has your childlike faith not changed as you grew up? My favorite book of Lewis's is the Pilgrims Regress. It takes a complex allegorical look at his faith from 12 to 32. But it's dark and patient and not in any way a children's book. Susan is the "over-thinker". I'm sympathetic to her saying "it does not compute" and just freezing her family out, because she can't process it all.

[@judylloyd7901]

@@christianealshut1123 There is no way that the Aslan of Narnia would have left Susan misunderstanding about why she wasn't coming back to Narnia. The same was true of Peter.

[@laur6313]

I liked the scene in the Prince Caspian film, where she's talking with Lucy by the fire and she says how they're in Narnia 'while it lasts'. It's clear she doesn't want to leave and get ripped out of the world, again, but as a practical person, she knows she will. While this isn't directly from the book, it did feel very natural. Susan knows it won't last, she's told she's too old now, to go home. Who can blame her for throwing herself into 'real life' as opposed to clinging to a world she's been told she won't get back to - she's an incredibly logical, practical person, who just went home and got into her box of being a young woman, like society expected.

[@Antares-360]

Apparently, growing out of your childhood fantasies and focusing on more practical things in the REAL world means you're no longer a sympathetic character that deserves a happy ending...

[@xavierkoch8705]

@@Antares-360 I don't think thats what she's saying. Susan couldn't possibly have known what was going to happen, because no one could have known. Narnia was real to the Pevensies, but to cling on to something you have no hope of obtaining again just leads to misery. Think of it as watching an old tv show you used to watch as a kid. It no longer appeals to you as you have grown out of it, and in Susan's case, shes lost faith in a place she has been forced to leave, twice

[@oceanelf2512]

The whole aging out of Narnia really put me off the books in a way. Although it is not consistent. After all, Uncle Andrew, the cabby, his wife, and Jadis were all adults when they entered Narnia. So the four siblings aging out just never makes sense and is annoying.

[@brushylake4606]

It isn't that she didn't "cling" to Narnia. She denied its existence.

[@oceanelf2512]

@@brushylake4606 Narnia, or rather, Aslan, denied her so she had to deny Narnia's existence since she was rejected for being too old to go back.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

I did read The Problem With Susan and it did bring up something. On earth, Susan goes through a tragedy that no one should endure. She has to bury her entire family, mourn them and keep living. And it's because she is trying to play grown up. At age 21. She's condemned for this. And yes, there is no empathy.

[@tanyaung3554]

That’s how life works

[@lampad4549]

ok so youve never read the book.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

@@lampad4549 which one? The last battle? I did, its been years but I did. And I never liked the fact that the happy ending was that the kids were dead so they can stay now.

[@lemsip207]

@@katherinealvarez9216 What a horrible ending to the last book in a series. Not just for Susan who as a teenager has to grow up with parents and siblings. It's also irresponsible as vulnerable children and teenagers who live in a concocted fantasy world like Narnia will commit suicide thinking that they will go to that fantasy world after they die.

[@pitpat2928]

@@lemsip207 omg i just realized the narnia series prophesied shifting communities (long comment below) explanation for the uninitiated: shifting communities are dedicated partially to mastering lucid dreaming and partially to shifting realities (primarily accessed by astral projection or through lucid dreaming). the idea is to teach ppl how to project ( “shift” ) themselves into parallel or alternate realities, anything from a world where you were born in california instead of new york to if you existed in your favorite “fictional” universe, made possible by multiverse theory. (and a bit of theory on the nature of consciousness). every time you make a choice you branch onto a new path for your current reality, and an alternate version or many alternate versions of you come into consciousness and continue on their path in an alternate reality. we’re shifting all the time, but theoretically with some practice you can do it intentionally and for funsies! if you dont believe in it idc i just had to explain as background for The Narnia Problem As the community around shifting grew, more and more ppl went about testing its limits, “why dont i learn a language? could i cut it as a superhero? how long can i stay?”. so ppl figured the further a reality is from the current, the more you experience time disparity; the narnia kids lived into adulthood and came back as still children is a lot like shifters coming back with stories from their Years of study at Hogwarts for example. but alas they returned bc they had to continue their life in This reality on earth sans wizarding world…but what if they didnt? someone asked before the biggest mistake ever. people allegedly tried to shift “permanently” abandoning this reality in favor of their carefully curated desired one, and you guessed it, that sewer slide. much like the pevensies tragic death was swept aside bc woohoo! theyre partying with lion god now, shifters overlooked the (ha) reality of death to chase fantasy because to them its more real and worthy than the life they were given

[@ninalima4150]

susan is also the perfect depiction of the “eldest daughter” who takes on the responsibilities of caring for her siblings in the absence of her mother. in this way, susan was FORCED to grow up faster because she needed the emotional maturity to support them. it’s a shame cs lewis condemned her for reacting to that pressure in a completely normal way. she acts as the voice of reason and offers a different perspective, not the voice of doubt. i think you’re right that punishing her with living without her family and identifying their bodies makes aslan and narnia seem harsh, especially since her crimes are essentially going through puberty (interest in beauty and sexuality). i don’t think she was treated fairly at all, and it breaks my heart to see how cs lewis treated her.

[@cseijifja]

on the contray, lewis condems her suckling into vain society and making it her focus, what kind of "suportive mother figure" leaves around her family, goes on to make social life far away , shuns her family when theytry and reconect trough shared experiences, and is not with her family in her reunion at all. it's completly in line with the idea that susan is now one of those adults "that want to be grown up so bad they shun all the stuff they loved as kids,when true maturity is not caring about what they ar esupoused to shun and what not, and valuing what really matters" In the case of susan, it was represented as "lipsticks and Nylon" , vanity, superficiality, faux praise from folk that don't know her and have no interest in doing so.

[@mrminer071166]

I always read her as an "ani," an older sister Never liked her. But the people who are butt-hurt should GO AHEAD and write her story, as the "surviving" Pevensie child, making her way in post WWII London. Was she more than just a figure for the grown-up female libido that Lewis notoriously shut out of his life? If so, the door is open for a full-on Virginia Woolf treatment of VITA SUSANIS.

[@roj4169]

@@cseijifja It's still not a proportional punishment for her if that was the case. Losing all of your family at once and being denied sharing an afterlife with them just because you were vain during your late teens and early adulthood is way too much.

[@idkidc2573]

@@cseijifja i hope you realise that your comment doesnt make her sound like a bad person. the first sentence is just kinda funny tbh. "what kind of mother figure does this?!" thats the whole point, she should have never had to be a mother figure, because she was a child. And now that she is finally grown its completely understanble and normal that she wants to be free from responsabilities she should have never had to bear. She wants to be her own person and pursue her interests like everyone else. also are you calling her vain? really? she shows no signs of vanity. she acts like an average person.

[@PikaFilmStudios]

grow the fuck up its a book

[@michellearzu1265]

I remember thinking as an 11 year-old that of course Susan would deny Narnia. It was her way of coping with the loss of that world. That thinking it was make-believe was the only way she found to survive losing it. Once I was older and found out this was essentially her punishment for becoming an atheist, I still thought she did the best she could to move on and keep her sanity.

[@michellearzu1265]

@@kathrineici9811 so...um... Susan got what she asked for? Picking the wrong coping mechanism in a world that would never believe her, anyway? I get that's what the author was aiming for, "you stop believing, go to hell for all I care," but as a reader, I can totally understand why Susan did it. It was easier to close that door as best as she could and appreciate the here and now, than living in the past, wishing for a time that was never going to come back again. Regardless of what Aslan told her or how her siblings remained "good", all I'm saying is that I can understand why she chose to ignore that life. Not because she didn't want it or love it, but because she had to shield herself from that never-ending sense of loss.

[@sourisvoleur4854]

Where does it say she became an atheist?

[@alaskabane5340]

@@sourisvoleur4854 oh you might not know this whole thing is a metaphor for Christianity, so her beliefs could be considered Atheistic.

[@sourisvoleur4854]

@@alaskabane5340 Yes, I do know about the Christian subtext under all of this. (But thank you for being kind in case I didn't.) But I don't think we can baldly state "She was punished for being atheist." That's just not in the text. She could be an agnostic or a deist or a Jewish convert or a Hindu, and cease to be a friend of Narnia, not just an atheist. If we're discussing what's in a work of literature we should be careful to not make it say something it doesn't say.

[@alaskabane5340]

@@sourisvoleur4854 I think the op meant having atheistic tendencies? Since she doesn't believe things she have experienced in childhood and believes it to be a make belief game! I actually agree, she could have been converted or have not be a friend to Narnia due to this but the way she is portrayed in the later book mockingly calling her "materialistic" might refer to as her losing her faith and becoming a non-believer.

[@TealVT]

should also probably be mentioned that C.S Lewis notably disapproved of women who got overly interested in feminine stuff like makeup and dressing up, which could be yet another reason why Lucy, who was always more of a sensible, practical sort, was so rewarded while Susan was punished. it comes off as incredibly sexist and disapproving toward... a teenage girl who wants to look pretty.

[@tonichan89]

Yikes :( It's really not flattering for the philosophy

[@komal146]

Explains why i had to compartmentalize her character because i was a not like other girl in my teens and every feminine thing pricked me lol

[@katherinealvarez9216]

What was his reasoning for this disapproval? Did he speak about it?

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

@@katherinealvarez9216 It’s sexism, plain and simple. Equating femininity with sexuality and thusly with sin.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

@@UltimateKyuubiFox I got some God fearing grandmas that would like a talk with him.

[@MischievousMischief]

Even as a child I was shocked by how it ended. It felt really abrupt and tragic, ESPECIALLY for Susan who is left alone.

[@lemsip207]

I started reading the books but didn't get to the end of the series because by then I had moved onto Arthur Ransome. I wanted to do real things such as boating and camping not live in a fantasy world with imaginary friends by the time I was ten.

[@status8477]

@@lemsip207 nothing wrong with embracing reality over fantasy. It is what we should do to be fair. the only difference in circumstances is that (bear with me, you probably already know what I'm going to share) for all who ever stepped into narnia, they were well aware that it was in fact as real as earth. she didn't want to return to narnia so she was not forced to

[@lemsip207]

@@status8477 As long as you realise it's just fantasy.

[@status8477]

@@lemsip207 and somehow my comment failed to convey that I am well aware that it is not reality? so you skipped the rest?

[@EveRosell]

I felt like it was very cruel to the animals to didn't want to believe in Aslan anymore too. Not only were they brainwashed to forget who they were, they were literally left to die in an arctic wasteland.

[@rachelauguste]

I watched the movies and haven’t read the books, but I did find it bittersweet that the Pevensies basically grew up already in Narnia and had to do it over again once they left. I can’t imagine being sent back to my preteen self and the knowledge and experiences I gained in Narnia won’t translate as well. Especially for Susan, it makes sense for her to “logically” distance herself from that reality in order to move on. She might have not seen it worth her time to reminisce on a time and place she can no longer return to.

[@jeriekae]

I completely agree with you. It broke my heart at the end of the first movie. Then it crushed me in Prince Caspian when Susan was told she couldn't come back anymore because she will grow up. And I relate with Susan a whole lot because of having to mature quick and dismissing a place that just brings more sadness than happiness. It's absolutely cruel having known this ending for her and I don't think this view is fair if related to Christianity. At least not on how I view it now.

[@Halfwit_The_Brave]

Definitely read the books, they are much better. Plus you’ll get all 7 stories instead of 3 mangled stories

[@tapestry6455]

the movies are no where as beautiful as the books, Disney messed it up big time! I wish Walt could haunt them in their staff meetings!

[@raymondwelborne4998]

Definitely read the books.

[@SM-ky6pb]

If I was Susan I would be incredibly bitter about it too. Imagine being attached to a place where you can forget all your problems back in earth, then being forced to leave it because you are growing "old" and told that you can never come back. The switching back and forth between their life in Narnia and their life in the real word must have been hard too. They are kings and queens in Narnia, but in the real world they are just normal teenagers trying to live their lives after the war. I won't blame her if that was her coping mechanism, to deny its existence (even if she knows to herself that it's very true) and move on with life, expecting that she'll never be able to come back to that paradise again

[@tsuritsa3105]

There is also never any acknowledgment of how painful it was for some of them to get shut out of Narnia at the end. She was barred from coming back at 13. She was told she would NEVER come back to Narnia. If I went through that, I might try to banish it to the back of my mind, to forget, to pretend that it had never happened. How else to cope with the loss?

[@randomgirl4038]

Perhaps reminiscing the memories and cherishing Narnia instead of just running away?

[@tsuritsa3105]

@@randomgirl4038 Some people could do that. Others can't. It can be extremely painful to look on something lost like that. Susan thought she had lost Narnia forever and clearly for her the trauma was too much to just reminisce about.

[@ApacheMagic]

True point. She was told she could never return. She was set up to fail. What person holds on to hope after god himself tells you you’re excluded from his presence forevermore because of time, and biology? Both conditions of which were set by god in the first place. And what does that say to a 13 yo child? It says ‘you are not worth saving. I don’t love you any more.’ It means all the love she thought she experienced there from Aslan is ashes in her mouth. It wasn’t real ever, because it didn’t last. I think CS Lewis had mummy issues.

[@crystaluwu1012]

@@kathrineici9811 Thats in the movies, they were talking about the books.

[@rmsgrey]

@@crystaluwu1012 In Prince Caspian, Aslan takes Peter and Susan aside and talks to them for a time, and all they say of it afterwards is that they won't be coming back to Narnia again.

[@anns1169]

Susan was always my favourite because she was the most relatable of the four

[@allison3852]

I know right! I think Caspian likes her!

[@liliebilie]

I liked Susan but Lucy was my favourite. Edmund was an interesting (and infuriating) character and Peter was just boring.

[@allison3852]

@@liliebilie how is Peter boring

[@MadChips202]

I only remember the first movie. But I remember that in the first movie that Susan reminded me of my oldest sister. That’s why she was my fav. I felt like I related to Lucy in that movie too and the relationship between her and Susan.

[@andrewprahst2529]

Not an Edmond inserter, huh?

[@LilianaCroush]

Could they solve this dilemma, by having Susan as the narrator of the series? (from her own experiences and being told what happened in later books by the other people) but still refusing to believe in it until then end of her life. Susan being revealed as the narrator of the story of Narnia, when she's telling the story to her grandkids or something, and then a last scene of her seeing the light and reuniting with her family after her death?

[@GuineaPig361]

That's my head canon!

[@fantasyfiction101]

Ohh I love that idea. Maybe she could have been a writer and published the books in the narnia series.

[@selenedm999]

Great minds think alike! I keep saying (and have even done a bit of fan fiction) that they could still make the rest of the movies with the original cast, if they set the "framing" story 20+ years after the original films, in the "Swinging Sixties" era. In my "head canon," Susan moved to America and is now a famous author, having written a series of children's books about the magical land she and her siblings visited as children. She sends her daughter, Jill, to England for a vacation while she's on a book tour. Jill and her cousin Eustace (named for the Pevensies' cousin, maybe he's dead or alive, not sure) get into Narnia and follow most of the Silver Chair story. When they come back, they discuss their experiences with their aunt/dad/uncle, who are all adults now. Peter is a barrister, Edmund went into politics, and Lucy does something in academics and theology. They get together with the old Professor and Polly and then we get The Last Battle... And when the story ends, it's Susan who is narrating the story, and it's how she's found her way back into Narnia and her faith.

[@allison3852]

hi

[@zooemperor3954]

I love that ending honestly. Personally, I’d add a line of dialogue from Lucy in Heaven showing concern for her sister, whom she was closest to, and Aslan approaching her and consoling her before reassuring Lucy that Susan will see her again in his country as well. It will be a long journey with many twists and turns, but Susan will find her way there as well and Aslan would be waiting to welcome her in. Aslan would also watch over her as well too at times as well.

[@ananya1721]

So Susan was essentially thrust into premature adulthood in a trainwreck that killed all her siblings. It would've being so much more poignant and relatable if after years of emotional emptiness she was allowed back to Narnia, making it abundantly clear that deep down her coldness and skepticism she still held a pure heart. (Loss of innocence is not losing a pure heart)

[@randomgirl4038]

Well why should she be allowed in Narnia, if she rejected it?

[@randomgirl4038]

It was her choice

[@ananya1721]

@@randomgirl4038 I'll give a metaphor. When someone chooses not to be in love after getting heartbroken many times over. Does not mean they're undeserving of love.

[@randomgirl4038]

@@ananya1721 If you CHOOSE to close off your heart, then don’t expect to ever find love. Actions and choices have consequences, thus we must be held accountable to the consequences of our choices. The consequence of closing off your heart is never finding love. If you don’t want that consequence, then don’t make that choice. It’s really that simple.

[@ananya1721]

@@randomgirl4038 A choice to protect one's heart doesn't get mean they're undeserving or should be shamed/shunned.

[@samrudhik8757]

"Lost touch with Narnia" is such a messed up way of explaining it. They have been in and out multiple times and had to start over in Narnia and then the real world when they are ousted from Narnia. Seeing all of this, is it a crime that Susan decided to have stability in THIS world instead of being hung up over a land that calls her and then ousts her on random whims? I found her very mature in her thinking unlike the siblings that pined for the place where they were important. #justiceforsusan

[@joe3140]

yeah Susan's ending was kind of messed up. As a kid reading these books, it made sense as she lost the wonder of Narnia, but looking back now as an adult, you can see that she lost the wonder for a good reason. She was yanked back and forth between worlds and decided to just focus on the one she was in as she probably did feel left behind from the other world. I would like to think though that losing her entire family in a train crash would set her back quite a bit and Aslan would let her into his country with them though. I always felt that not having that little part for Susan at the end, finding her family after getting a little lost along the way, would be very cruel indeed.

[@alexjames7144]

Not to mention the things she's demonised for are the simple and unforgiveable crimes of ✨being a woman✨. Imagine growing up to your mid 20s and having authority and respect, then having to live through being a 13 year old girl in those times. Yikes. I think I'd be pissed off too.

[@KaitlinLuksa]

@@alexjames7144 Susan didn't get to Aslan's country because she liked "womanly" things. She didn't get to Aslan's country because she didn't believe it existed anymore. She was focused on the real world, and so she ends up staying there. My headcanon is that she did eventually make it to Aslan's country. It would have been nice if CS Lewis had implied as much like the video suggests.

[@blatio8131]

Yeah like Christians faulting those who practice mindfulness. You’re not a heathen for enjoying material things lol. It’s alot less arrogant than constantly pining for heaven (Narnia) 🙄

[@anisaafsar4528]

The books are done the movies done theirs no changing it and over 99% of the people who have watched it like it so get over it There's nothing we can do to the story except for complain even though it was made ages ago where children were made to believe in these magical places

[@dietdrpepper15]

I never read the books as a kid but people I was friends with had, and we all saw the movies together. And one friend mentioned what happened to Susan and I was appalled. And he was totally dismissive of Susan and 'she deserves it' type thing. So I do hope they can write a good open ended hopeful ending for her. Thank you Neil Gaiman writing a much necessary critical look at how the writing comes across.

[@HurricaneDDragon]

*Neil Gaiman

[@dietdrpepper15]

@@HurricaneDDragon Fixed. Thank you autocorrect.

[@92JazzQueen]

Gailman is full of shit on susan

[@dietdrpepper15]

@@92JazzQueen .....k

[@dovahllin798]

I asked a priest the same question and got the exact opposite answer

[@idklol3191]

Aslan told Susan and peter that they aren’t allowed to come back bc they are too old. Okay , she left narnia behind her. When she knew she couldn’t come back to narnia she had to grow . She started to don’t believe in narnia anymore and wanted a normal life . It’s unfair that her siblings had to die at a young age and go to narnia heaven without Susan . She had to forget about narnia bc she wasn’t allowed to come back. We all would done this like her. We would all start to grow up and start a family . It’s so sad that she lost her family and was left. I loved her character since day 1. I would do the exact thing like her. She was the most realistic character in the movies and books. Still tho her story is sad. Hope that she had a great life after the Train accident.

[@eileensnow6153]

I always thought they should’ve met up with Susan in Aslan’s country, looking like her young self but telling them she died an old woman. That she spent decades on Earth learning to rebuild her faith in Narnia, and raising her children on stories about it so they’ll all be friends to Narnia.

[@creativewriter3887]

And it shows.. religion has a problem with puberty, menstruation, maturity, carnal knowledge and coming of age. This is reflected in the Narnia series. they're kicked out at that age. And that's what religion does.

[@bubblegirl9854]

@@creativewriter3887 you must not be religious because that is not what religion is at all.

[@buihuy5211]

@@bubblegirl9854 but Narnia was built based on Christianity, with Arslan being Jesus, and how the final book is just Noah's Ark with the great flood all over.

[@L16htW4rr10r]

@@creativewriter3887 Even though I never get this in my church, but I can imagine some churches who still holding on to this backward thinking. And that is what, intentionally or not, C S Lewis showed in his story.

[@pietrommauri]

Honestly, I feel like the most fucked up part is simply turning a train wreck tragedy that kills three children into an unironic happy ending

[@bunnymoon9130]

That’s exactly why I felt so disgusted after finishing reading it at the age of 12/13. It felt so unnatural and unbelievable that they simply died and that was supposed to be a happy ending. The Chronicles of Narnia are classics and many people find comfort in this story, but instead of the comfort, I get anxiety…

[@lostvarius]

EXACTLY

[@roj4169]

@@bunnymoon9130 Catholics have a very worrying way of romanticizing death and the afterlife.

[@dianewood2430]

Could have let them grow up , die of old age, then back to Narnia

[@barbershopbible]

it's not about you finding comfort on Earth. For those of us who want to be with Christ, it's a happy ending.

[@l.tc.5032]

I disagree that it can't be Peter. He's been gone for a long time and could become bitter about being shut for being too old despite everything he did for Narnia. People change and not always for the better.

[@gracefutrell1912]

Peter was based on the biblical Peter who had three times denied Christ so being him would’ve made more sense For some reason he didn’t do it I don’t know why

[@crow_g1639]

@@gracefutrell1912 well yes c Lewis took alot of the biblical stories into his world but dont forget not everything was the same as Peter Pevensie never stopped beliving in Narnia, yes gave up on Aslan but not Narnia

[@LordofFullmetal]

I agree. It totally could've been Peter. It was Susan and not Peter because Lewis also had a bone to pick with women. Notice that the tomboy, Lucy, doesn't get punished. And that the whole conversation around Susan is that she's no longer a friend of Aslan BECAUSE she likes makeup and nylon - typical female expectations for the era. Those weren't just interests; women HAD to wear those things. She had no choice. She is being directly punished for her femininity. She is being punished for being an adult woman and conforming to what is expected of adult women.

[@maca76]

@@LordofFullmetal yeah some people are really missing the mysoginy of this part, its Susan because she is a woman

[@l.tc.5032]

@@LordofFullmetal if Susan absolutely had to come later then personally I'd have written it as follows. In the intervening time Susan got married and had children herself and Aslan being benevolent wasn't about to take a mother and wife away from her family like that and she'll come when the time is right and thus spared her and her family from that tragedy.

[@Ellaliluleloka]

Wow 💀 I had no idea Narnia ended that way, since I never really got into it. But the way you described it in the beginning already had me really disturbed by how....cruel? It felt towards Susan. Like, man..

[@TropeAnatomy]

ahahah right? Pretty disturbing. I know she's fictional but I feel so bad for her

[@tractorfeed7602]

@@TropeAnatomy and why would their parents be allowed into Narnia? They've never believed in Narnia because they never knew about it in the first place

[@jayt9608]

@@tractorfeed7602, they were allowed into Narnia because they were Christians. There are several passages that mention that some knowledge and relationship with Aslan is critical to access His country. Further, in one of the earlier stories, he tells the children that they will soon be learning of Him in their own world, but they will then know Him by another name. This is obviously a revenue to them coming to learn of Jesus and the crowd. Lucy again alludes to this in The Last Battle when she states that there was once a stable in our world that held sonething bigger than it. Therefore, for the parents and children to have crossed into Aslan's Country, they would have known Him in our World. A final allusion to this is made at the very end of the story, whe it is said that suddenly He seemed not to be a Lion any more.

[@missanne2908]

@@TropeAnatomy My initial reaction to the end of _The Last Battle_ was that as tragic as Susan's situation was, at least she was going to be able to live out her life. Peter, Edmund and Lucy never got even got that chance, so I was more shocked about them.

[@GuineaPig361]

@@missanne2908 I always felt Aslan chose her to survive to tell the story; if all of his prophets were dead, no one else could go to Narnia.

[@maramoosebriggs1661]

Oh gosh I'm the eldest daughter in my family and I remember the freaking gut punch that reading the Last Battle was especially as an 8 year old. She had allways been my favorite and the one I identified with the most. I allways chose to be her when we played make believe!! And to see how cruelly and casually she was tossed aside made me cry.

[@oceanelf2512]

Yes, she was my favorite too. I hated how the last battle story ended. The series would've been far better left at The Silver Chair.

[@KuueenKumi]

Susan just did what anyone else would do: try to fit in. If she held onto the belief in Narnia, which she managed to convince herself was make believe, she wouldn't be the normal young woman she was trying to be. 21 is a very hard age, and some of us try a little too hard to put our past behind us to grow up and fit in to society. Believing in that world while reckoning with the difficulties of what, 1960s England for a woman, that would be too much to bear. And she was punished for trying to grow up. Imagine Wendy losing her siblings to Neverland because she had to grow up and face the music of high school and adulthood and motherhood.

[@92JazzQueen]

She wasn't growing up. She actually had an immature understanding of it by embracing a shallow lifestyle

[@KuueenKumi]

@@92JazzQueen That's part of growing up, figuring out who you are and what being "grown up" means. She probably had even more concerns about fitting in and being a normal member of society with this knowledge of a magical world in the back of her mind. No teenager or 20 year old is exempt of shallow behavior. College students are the epitome of shallow, because it's when you're both figuring out who you are at the expense of everyone and everything, and trying to enjoy the last moments of youth on your terms.

[@crow_g1639]

Exactly you just proved all thoes haters lol

[@mike-mz6yz]

I dont get how people dont understand this. I mean everyone knows that believing in Aslan is lewis saying believing in Jesus right? So Susan is a person who in trying to fit it and mature rejects Jesus and convinces herself that meeting him was make belief. Of course she doesnt get into heaven. Thats Christianity for you, or almost any other religion with a heaven for that matter. Belief is the most important part. Lewis was a true believer, so he has Susan as a cautionary tale, of what can happen when in an effort to fit in or seem mature you reject God. We shouldn't view the story through our own beliefs but through the authors.

[@jeringatai3156]

@@92JazzQueen she didnt embrace a shallow lifestyle. She lived in the real world and got rid of fantasies. Thats what you do when you grow up.

[@Moeller750]

I think it's worth mentioning that Lewis ended his reply to the fan letter by writing "why not try to write it yourself?" I think Lewis was aware how poorly he ended Susan's story, and genuinely hoped someone would pick up his mantle and bring her home. And I think it would make for an amazing adult fantasy novel, if done right

[@lilac951]

Or he was just a little b!tch

[@lavenderbee423]

I'm so glad someone mentioned this!

[@sarahhavillamelooliveira5825]

A whole gate to fanfiction was opened that day

[@michaelwellen2866]

The Magicians Trilogy handled her fate quite well, I thought.

[@KawaiiPinkPunkStar]

@@michaelwellen2866 what's that? where can I find it?

[@MountainMaid238]

The whole 'only children can enter' thing weirded me out, like, we're made to mature, why is something we have no control over the reason our relationship to something must end? Oh but you better keep believing in it, even if it rejects you. Some mind messing going on there.

[@katarinabeauty8]

No, it's that we must be like children. Innocent, believe, small, humble.. So as adults, we actually do have control over our behavior.

[@MountainMaid238]

@@katarinabeauty8 Ew, that kind of has undertones of subservience, which is a reflection of the era and the society the author was a part of at the time

[@JM-mh1pp]

@@MountainMaid238 Have you ever participated in catholic mass? Subservience is the name of the game, it is all about begging for forgivness while admitting that you are not worthy and only throught the never ending mercy of god you may be saved. It was not a reflection of the era or the society author was a part of at the time... it is a reflection of religious values TODAY.

[@MountainMaid238]

@@JM-mh1pp Slave mentality = catholicism. Right, got it 🙄

[@JM-mh1pp]

@@MountainMaid238 I mean slave mentality is overstating it quite a bit, but there is a lot of "I am unworthy" type of self-flagellation.

[@magzdilluh]

Susan didn't do anything wrong, she was no longer a friend of Narnia because she became an adult in a story that couldn't address grown up things. Imagine being a grown up Susan, having lost all of your beloved siblings. Would you want to relive memories of Narnia that would only bring you horror and grief? Susan deserved better. I would have liked to have seen Lucy and Susan seen each other one last time: Lucy still frozen as a little girl, seeing Susan as an adult woman looking very similar to their own mother, living a life with loved ones and a family and Susan and Lucy seeing each other across time and dimensions one last time, seeing one another and understanding each other.

[@Ellestra]

She didn't just loose her siblings but also her parents, her cousin and people who were basically her grandparents. That's a lot of funerals to organise under the weight of the grief and all these people think it's her own fault for not being dead like them.

[@randomgirl4038]

You can’t just run away from your past and grief though. True bravery is having the courage to confront it. If she can’t do that, then she will never be back in Narnia. This is all free will.

[@sourisvoleur4854]

But two other grown-ups, Digory and Polly, remain friends of Narnia, even into old age.

[@randomgirl4038]

@@sourisvoleur4854 true

[@TheLastSane1]

@@sourisvoleur4854 But they where never cast out. Aslan told her she could never come back.

[@TheAbigailDee]

I remember when my little sister read this book when she was pretty young, and the ending crushed her. She just hated how Susan was abandoned, and then when we were older and came across the Neil Gaiman work, it made so much sense. Love this video. Well done.

[@mightychondria666]

Exactly with me. I cried

[@oceanelf2512]

I hated that too, and the whole situation at the end where the rest of them died. That pretty much meant no continuation of the story, no creating any further adventures even of Jill and Eustace. No more stories about even Susan because if everyone died and Narnia itself was destroyed, what would be the point trying? It was all so fatalistic and depressing.

[@oceanelf2512]

@Mailen Driussi I have seen mostly comments that support yours and my POV so far, which is a relief. I have always been horribly let down and weirded out by the way the series ended, and thought Susan was given a terrible raw deal. Even if she dies eventually and ends up in Narneaven, that doesn't rub out the cold-hearted dismissive attitudes the others including freaking Aslan had when they were talking about her before. And don't get me started on Aslan. I find myself getting more and more irritated by that character. He treats everybody like game pieces. And he gets all the admiration from these same people. He may be Narnia's creator, but he certainly isn't the creator of any other world unless it's a fictional one.

[@christinadavies1925]

I went to catholic school growing up, in 8th grade (when we're around 12-13 y/o) we're supposed to do the sacrament of Confirmation, where you confirm your faith to the church and community. at that point my home life was really rough, and I was questioning a lot of the teachings of my religion-most specifically, the concept of heaven and hell. It did not sit right with me that a religion that's supposed to be about compassion and love would be so okay with the vast majority of humanity going to eternal damnation just because they didn't have the right faith in the right god, worshiping in the right way, etc. And as a 13 y/o, it was wild to me that if I were to die then, having those questions despite having done nothing wrong to anyone would cast me into eternal suffering. Extrapolating that outward to all the good and just people throughout history who would experience that fate as well, just for not believing what we did seemed... unusually cruel. And not something I wanted to publicly or privately confirm I was cool with. When I told my teachers and principal my decision to not go through with Confirmation, I remember my principal handing me 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis. And I just... something about it felt so hollow to me. I was not in the right mind space to read it. Listening to this video and hearing what happened to Susan brought a lot of those memories back. Of thinking through what it truly means to believe in a heaven that excludes people for having very human doubts and aspirations. Of how a belief system that touts compassion and light can sometimes ignore what it really means to have heaven and hell as destinations to go, rather than something that can be built in the here and now.

[@lyannawinter405]

That was very interesting to read and I feel tons of sympathy and empathy for your thoughts and feelings from then and from now.

[@fairy5668]

It would have been interesting had Peter lost faith though. It would have been heartbreaking that the eldest and apparent leader no longer believed, and Susan would likely have to struggle with bearing the weight of his responsibility in his absence

[@mrminer071166]

I think it would have been "pretty," or at least symmetrical, if ALL the kids had had "bumps" in their relationship with Narnia. WE ALL KNOW what a little fink Edmund was. Lucy suffers from having TOO MUCH FAITH, and seeing Aslan too often. But it's all too clear that Lewis was too much IN LOVE with Peter, and too much in hate with Susan. The novel I'm interested in writing, goes like this: it's a "One Ring" cross-over trope episode, in which EVERYONE AGREES that Peter, and only he, has the sterling character to where he could be made to "take over" the power-ring issue. And, in his pride and self-reliance, he takes it. AND HE FUCKS THINGS UP TERRIBLY. Now, that's a story I would read the hell out of! Friggin little prig Marty-Stu for Lewis!!!! Talk to me about Peter story arc, OK? Where does HE go? Anywhere? Anywhere?

[@reesehendricksen269]

@@mrminer071166 I hope you're aware Lewis saw himself the most in Susan right? Just like Faramir was Tolkien's self insert character, and Samwell Tarly is GRRM's self insert character, Susan is the most like Lewis. As Lewis himself lost faith when growing up, he showed that in the character most like himself: Susan. It's not out of hate he does this to Susan, he's just showing himself and his own experience. Though Lewis' story didn't end after he lost faith, nor did it end after his wife died either, they served as a foundation for new and interesting developments.

[@smkemmett3562]

@@reesehendricksen269 That sounds hopeful. If Lewis can re-find his faith in adulthood, then he knows Susan can, too. One of his letters suggests that she might...

[@crazydragy4233]

@@smkemmett3562 Yes but I think this is in a way besides the point. Context is nice but it's "optional", whereas what's in the book is just a given when you read. The actual writing of this isn't that neat and at best those heavily invested in the story might find some hope in author's comments but it's not in the text.

[@jeromerondeau2824]

For me it wasn't so much the callous way Susan is excluded, but more the total indifference of her family. I have just been told I am getting into Heaven, but my beloved sister is being excluded. And rather than be sad, or at least dejected by this state of affairs we get an "Oh well, I never liked her anyway!" feel to it. It is almost like some Jedi mind trick (You won't feel bad about her exclusion. All is well and happy!). If this is Heaven, then it is one where one's fundamental personality MUST be changed to deal with the dissonance. So it is not that Susan is excluded, but that the rest of the family is changed to rationalize her omission!

[@Lilitha11]

That is an issue with real life Christianity. People often portray heaven as a perfect and happy place, so people crying and being depressed about all their friends and family burning in hell for all eternity doesn't really fit. So they tend to gloss over that. Which is what they did to Susan.

[@oceanelf2512]

You nailed it, it is all a Jedi mind trick, played on the lot of them by Aslan. The character who ruined the whole series.

[@kennethsatria6607]

The way it was written the friends of narnia did not know they were dead when they were talking about Susan, they just thought they had been transported to Narnia like they used to be.

[@heddadybvadskog-nebb5603]

I would've loved it if the question of "has not your majesty two sisters? Where is queen Susan" was met with silence. With the siblings slowly realizing that this means Susan has been left behind to deal with their deaths all alone. And even though they all realize that is what has happened Lucy would still start crying and shout out in desperation saying that Susan must be on her way and that no she cant have been left behind. And Edmund and Peter would try to comfort her but eventually they too would fall apart. Someone else- maybe Eustace? (because he obviously was around when she was in the US with her parents and Peter and would know how she impacted Lucy during that time) would raise the question "Is it possible Susan is no longer a friend of Narnia and that is why she is not here with us? Is it possible Susan has stopped believing" and the boys would accept this because they knew that from the moment they realized she was left behind. But Lucy will remember how, in Prince Caspian, Susan eventually admitted deep down that she knew it was true that Lucy felt Aslan, so she will know that at the bottom of her heart Susan believes. And so Lucy will not accept that Susan is merely "no longer a friend of Narnia" and asks Aslan why Susan couldn't come with them and Aslan will say that he made a mistake not letting Susan back to Narnia after prince Caspian because this forced her to grow up faster than she should have and caused a fracture in their family dynamic. But he will also say that hope is not lost for Susan, she just needs some more time. And then the book would end and we would get a sequel where Susan in almost in the Professor's role when her and Peter talked to him about Lucy saying she went to Narnia. Someone entrusts her with the information that they've been to Narnia (perhaps her kids) but unlike the professor she does not provide unwavering faith but instead warns them to never enter again. The person/people choose not to listen to her and go anyways despite danger lurking in Narnia, Aslan knows the kids can't make it on their own and thus provides Susan with a chance to go back to Narnia even though she is an adult. I am not gonna write the whole plot of the book but something like that. This might have been a very silly comment but I would love it if the netflix show does get to the last book, that it gives Susan a nicer conclusion and perhaps even leaves it open for a potential spin-off

[@CallMeAuranna]

Honestly? I would read this sequel. Susan deserves a proper ending and this could be it.

[@tiph3802]

This sounds great, but has one critical problem: Aslan is a metaphor for God and God's ego is far too massive to ever admit he made a mistake.

[@Rizzalert69]

that sounds incredible! wow

[@TheLastSane1]

@@tiph3802 Which makes me wonder if Aslan is actually Lucifer and that instead of the garden and the form of a snake, he has taken many young people (because he seems to only prefer the young) and made them into his followers.

[@jeroenthelord]

i dont think they know they are dead at that point

[@Sanguine-Tenshi]

It's so good to see you back! I was getting worried, hopefully you are doing well! As for Susan, I'd say there are four main points that rub the reader the wrong way. 1. The punishment doesn't fit the crime. 2. There is no clear opening for a redemption. She had a chance and she failed. Even a throw away line about it would have been great. 3. Her family just sort of... drops her, as if their whole lives revolve around Narnia and anyone, even a family member, who doesn't believe has no part in their lives. 4. The wording of it. She's no longer a friend of Narnia. While I understand what was meant the wording makes it feel like she, I dunno, broke the Geneva Convention or something. Add to that the reluctance to even speak of her and it really feels like she did something truly horrible. Like I would expect this sort of reaction if she destroyed the wardrobe, sort of out of frustration and anger at her whole family constantly bringing up something she can no longer have she lashes out and tells them to stop being delusional.

[@kellystiver5075]

I mean it's a great parallel of how some religious people treat the "fallen" in their families but yikes it's definitely not selling the belief system

[@jayt9608]

She does something very similar to that, and apparently not only recently. Peter cites her exact words back to the group when she scores them for continuing to play the "silly games" they created as children. She had in fact, burned her ties to her family by referring to them as foolish and childish, which all siblings in the history of the world have received with joyous gratitude.

[@inapickle806]

Exactly. He's selling a version of Christian beliefs which most Christians try to not say out loud publicly. Her true crime seems to be growing up and doing precisely what the church would encourage her to do: attract a man to become a mother of more Christians. And honestly, she doesn't have a lot of options in 1950's Britain.

[@jayt9608]

@@inapickle806, that would be an incorrect understanding of events. That is the realities before Peter, Edmund, and Lucy before they are killed in the train accident. Susan has left the faith and is not looking toward anything so "traditional". She is rather seeking to be a flirt and tease with a different boy at her side every week. This is why Polly is disgusted with her behavior. Susan would easily be the forerunner and member of the plastic surgery trend as she attempted to keep her appearance at 21 or so forever so she could keep acting that age. That has nothing to do with Christianity at all, nor would Lewis be in agreement with you. Susan is better represented as one of those "Christians" who only occasionally attends a church service, whose name is on the roll as a member, but who has no true connection to the faith and eventually leaves when the faithful will not alter their positions to suit the modern taste. I fear that if Lewis were alive today, he would not have been so sanguine about Susan's likely fate.

[@inapickle806]

@ Jay T the reality is that this was all fiction written by CS Lewis. He seems to have a problem with women becoming women and following the teachings of his own church. Susan is criticized for simply dressing like an adult of her time and being interested in men from the perception of her family- created by the author. There is nothing to say that she is doing any of the things you slight her with.

[@trash_chan]

I totally understand what C.S. Lewis tried to do, but I agree that he should've applied the questions his readers might have regarding Susan's fate by saying, "Just because she's not there now does not mean she won't be in the future," or maybe show her grieving process. I don't know, I appreciate religious allegory in stories, but not in the way that it reflects people's actual feelings about practicing their faith, especially Christianity. It felt as if Susan's ending left a message implying that people deserve losing their families and being denied a place in heaven because they were struggling with their faith due to entering a period of their life where they tend to think more critically about life or prioritizing things that bring them satisfaction instead of "believing." Just speculating here. In my opinion, Susan shouldn't have got the ending she had, but it's the one that we've got and makes us think about even as the series has long ended. Edit: I also wanted to add that this was a good video.

[@crow_g1639]

Happy endings dont exist, also he saw narnia as the image of the bible you can cry all you want

[@birdcar7808]

That cannot possibly be true. CS Lewis was literally an atheist during his youth. The point with Susan is that she’s become obsessed with a false, frivolous version of adulthood, not that she’s into girly things. Lewis said in a letter to a fan: “Peter gets back to Narnia in it. I am afraid Susan does not. Haven’t you noticed in the two you have read that she is rather fond of being too grownup? I am sorry to say that side of her got stronger and she forgot about Narnia.” He says nothing about her femininity, ONLY about her false view of adulthood.

[@trash_chan]

@@crow_g1639 I've long accepted the end product as something Lewis saw to be fitting for the series and that it can't be changed. I'm just sharing my feelings about it.

[@trash_chan]

@@birdcar7808 I'm aware that the subject of Lewis' faith is a complex one so I admit that I probably shouldn't have directly inserted his name as if his use of religious allegory reflected his actual beliefs like some authors may demonstrate from time to time. I didn't know the man, so don't take my word for it. I think get it now. It's a series for children and young teens. It is likely that something that Lewis wanted readers to basically take away from Susan's ending, while not paying much regard to religious allegory, is to not buy into an idea of adulthood where you must prioritize walking, talking, breathing like a supposed grown-up and leaving behind things you've enjoyed in your youth completely. That's fine, too. Still stand by my comment, but I'd like to acknowledge what the ending may have also been trying to accomplish.

[@birdcar7808]

@@trash_chan Fair enough.

[@ScarletSerenade]

You really hit the head on the nail here. The way Susan was discarded and treated in the final book is what left a permanent sour taste in my mouth for the Narnia books, save for The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I grew up a Christian and there was a time in my life when I practically hung on every word that Lewis wrote, but when I came to this point in the books, it never sat right with me. You really summed up my feelings and even gave me a few things to think about. I love what you had to say here. Thanks for your take on this topic!

[@rachelstechman5959]

What a thoughtful and nuanced video - thank you. My only disappointment is that you didn't investigate the sexism aspect of Susan's (mis)characterisation, which I think is worth debating. As other commenters have noted, Susan's love of lipstick etc. can be read as a love of simple materialism, which is not sexist in itself, and I do agree this is a reasonable interpretation. However, it's also worth noting that the boys get to overcome their character flaws (Peter suffers from misplaced pride in several instances), and their characters are written far more sympathetically. Susan isn't given the same benefit, and the abrupt contrast definitely leaves a sexist aftertaste, whether intentional or not. I mean, even Susan's parents get to go to heaven - how are they friends of Narnia? It makes Susan's ending feel even more gratuitously cruel.

[@92JazzQueen]

You are overreading things to find an issue

[@ladyredl3210]

@@92JazzQueen I disagree. Peter didn't get obbssed with cars, or guns or any other stereotypical male things. Saying her being female has nothing to do with it is denying society altogether. The irony is that she's being punished for being a conforming stereotypical woman. No other behavior for her would have been acceptable.

[@92JazzQueen]

@@ladyredl3210 you are dunces

[@elainechubb971]

Lewis was presenting the traditional Christian (or Protestant) view that the believer gets to go to heaven and the nonbeliever goes to hell. Eustace betrayed Aslan (Christ) but repented, so goes to heaven.. Susan (apparently of her own free will) chooses to look on her experiences in Narnia as a childhood make-believe game, so, not believing in Aslan/Christ, and presumably not being a believer in God as presented by Christianity in our world, is destined not to go to heaven. The weird thing is that in "The Last Battle," where the virtuous Calormene does go to heaven, Aslan explains that if you worship another god but behave virtuously, your good deeds are accepted as having been done in the service of Aslan, and you are saved. I don't think this is usual theology! But in that case, why is Susan condemned? Are we to understand that she was behaving sinfully (wearing lipstick!)? She behaved well in Narnia and fought valiantly in the battles for Narnia (and Aslan), but apparently that didn't count. I guess Lewis just didn't really like Susan.

[@RedSoulYo]

@@92JazzQueen not really. After all Lucy is tempted by appeals to "vanity" as well. And is chastised slightly for thinking about her looks. The is certainly good reason to read the books and think Lewis had an issue with women.

[@Anna-yr6us]

I agree with a lot of this. My thought is maybe we are meant to believe that Susan will come 'round. Her story is so complex!! She was an adult once before, in Narnia, had marriage proposals etc. Then comes back again, younger and is told she can't come back again? So then she gets up go through growing up again, at a very hard time in history, with all that entails... It's a lot!

[@gillianbergh7002]

It seems it's ok for Narnian characters to grow up and get married, but not Earth characters. From the Horse and his boy, “Aravis also had many quarrels (and, I’m afraid even fights) with Cor, but they always made it up again: so that years later, when they were grown up they were so used to quarreling and making it up again that they got married so as to go on doing it more conveniently.” Is this a comment on how the author views marriage?

[@rmsgrey]

@@gillianbergh7002 It seems likely that the passage you quote is an accurate reflection of the author's view of marriage - that is to say, C S Lewis in his early 50s (and the early 50s). He married and fell in love (apparently in that order) in the (and his) late 50s - and she died in 1960, by which time he was very much in love with her. Of course, he might still have written the same line even after his personal experience - part of the attraction of Joy for him was that she was so capable of arguing with him as an equal, and it is a pretty accurate description of some very successful marriages I've known.

[@prideofasia99]

Nope. She's dead to Narnia and as a result, is barred from Aslan's country when she dies.

[@rmsgrey]

@@prideofasia99 If she'd died at the same time as the rest of her family, she would not have entered Aslan's Country, but she doesn't die then, and we're not told how her story continues. The author said elsewhere that it was possible she found her way back to faith later in life, and that would reflect Lewis's own experience of faith.

[@Alexander-the-Mediocre]

@@rmsgrey Yeah CS Lewis wrote that " But there is plenty of time for her to mend, and perhaps she will get to Aslan’s country in the end-in her own way" I'm completely fine with that the problem is that this wasn't included in the book. He had to give hope to the little girl that wrote him. He could have have include a line or so from Aslan that would have said the same thing. Making Susan story more open ended. You would think CS Lewis as someone that came to Christianity late in life would be more sympathetic towards Susan fall and while it is reflected in some letters he wrote it is not reflected in the story itself. I think CS Lewis even reconized the issue thats why he responded to letters with the hope for Susan that he left out of his final book.

[@spiceupyourafterlife]

Let me get this straight, Susan is punished for no longer believing in Narnia (i.e. Christianity) by losing her siblings to a tragic accident and this is framed as justifiable? WTF?!

[@alexjames7144]

Ikr gotta love that classic Christian forgiveness

[@rebeccachia]

yeap. CS Lewis Narnia series is based on Christianity and has many hidden meanings and messages to depict about God , bible and faith. his writings is all about after getting a glimpse of Narnia (heaven) how and will the children return to Narnia again?

[@dickiewongtk]

Christianity

[@travisdurrans8866]

I don't see it the same way. I see the train as simply a way for the children to enter Narnia, and because of Susan's disbelief she misses out on entering heaven at the same time as her siblings. Although, C.S. Lewis definitely could have done a better job explaining that Susan is not permanently separated from her siblings nor from heaven

[@TheTewjr]

Wouldn't it be . . . awkward to have someone who doesn't even believe in heaven end up there anyway?? I think Susan eventually comes back to the faith of her childhood, the faith that a more adult cynicism took from her, and makes it to heaven in the end.

[@heycheno9310]

Many years ago, as a child, when I read that Susan wasn’t coming back, I always thought the author wanted to publish a book only for Susan, especially because she was one of my faves. Even growing up, and after knowing it was an allegory for Christianity, I thought it would be very fitting to have a story about her finding her love for Narnia/God again. So many people find their faith when they are older. It would have been so perfect to have her faith regained after such a tragic event in her life, an adventure to rediscover herself and her faith. Also worth to notice, that Peter is the one who “criticized” her, not Aslan. So we don’t know what Aslan thought of her. Perhaps if C.S. Lewis had written another book, one more mature, as he said, we would have had one of the best books in the series with a lesson for those whose aren’t old enough to believe in fairy tales again.

[@Alexander-the-Mediocre]

@@ally939 Nope there is no evidence that CS Lewis wanted to write a book about her. His letters and quotes to people asking him about Susan make it pretty clear.

[@anotherrandomperson5524]

I heard someone say that he encouraged people to write their own stories about her because it would be to dark for a children’s book. I think he said that to encourage people to examine themselves and if they would go to heaven. Become Susan and make a choice, stay in this world? Or choose Aslan again?

[@christusvictor1431]

You are right. Aslan did not condemn her. And she is not in heaven because she was not killed in the train crash, but was still living.

[@TheLastSane1]

@@christusvictor1431 Aslan however cast her out because she was growing up and that alone is a problem. One that her age meant she couldn't return (which we later find out is bunk meaning he lied to her) and that she could not return again. He told a 13 year old girl hat she was cast out of a world that she loved and had grown up in and told her she was barred from returning. Of course she buried her feelings for Narnia.

[@christusvictor1431]

@@TheLastSane1 1. Aslan unltimely told all of the children in their turn that they could not return because the were too old. 2. Asian told them that, "in your world I am called by another name. You must learn to know me by it. 3. The other three children were no less mature, or "grown up" than Susan. The crux of the issue is that Susan no longer believes in Narnia. 4. As Susan is still living, I still maintain that C.S. Lewis intended to leave Susan's final fate open ended.

[@doratarani192]

I can't help but think that if it was any of the brothers, there'd be more meat and acknowledgement to their side of the story, and that their affinity for lasses and intoxication was a phase where they'd get to re-explore their sense of wonder and faith, bringing them back to Narnia. Whereas Susan was condemned to being paraphrased as a mind pickled in extrinsic obsessions and villainous adulting, the brothers would be given the benefit of the doubt, giving them the depth Susan will never get. Such a shame.

[@coolbeans5911]

Susan reminds me of Jane from Return to Neverland: logical, realistic though somewhat cynical young girls who are thrown into a fantastical world against their will, and punished for not having the faith of a child (Jane in the first half of the film and Susan in later years). Both girls had to mature too quickly due to their circumstances and thus it makes sense why they wouldn't allow themselves the luxury of belief. Like Jane, we can't blame Susan for her reluctance to believe because the real world just won't allow for childlike wonder to thrive; they had to grow up to survive. They both adopted the role of the parent for their siblings, and thus had to stay grounded in reality and sacrifice their innocence for it. Jane grew throughout the story and truly did accept Neverland in the end though (and it is suggested that she will never lose this faith but who knows) and it's a true shame readers will never get Susan's "i do believe" moment, and i can't imagine her finding it too easily after the tragic death of her siblings and parents. It's rather irresponsible of CS to have left Susan's story in the dark like that. Many of his readers i'm sure have had troubles finding and maintaining their faith, and Susan would've been a fantastic character for exploring these pitfalls and how to overcome them, but instead he just writes her off as a materialistic girl too concerned with the world. Nice

[@tabbycat55]

There is one thing that everyone is forgetting. First, Aslan never weighs in on this topic…the family does. He does not mention Susan, and he does not gossip. He tells you your story, not someone else’s. In TLWW, he states, “Once a King or Queen of Narnia, ALWAYS a King or Queen of Narnia.” Susan’s choice May have to not been with the group, but that doesn’t mean she was punished. We have free will. Aslan is patient. And she will always be a Queen. He has other uses for her until he calls.

[@user-B3xo18]

Omg this comforted me so much 😭

[@xtae4589]

Nah let’s face it, the author is super religious and he dislikes atheists. He literally let her suffer for the rest of her life with the trauma of losing her whole family.

[@ghaliahnanya3712]

This is a lot more encouraging. Thanks fro the insight

[@kimberleywilliams7802]

@@xtae4589 That is such a negative outlook, have a little faith. (no pun intended)

[@stepahead5944]

Finally, a reasonable comment. More in line with what was intended versus people's projections.

[@isaa1782]

To me it sounds pretty sexist. He could've said that she lost faith and became too distracted by materialistic things in so many ways... Yet he talks about her interest in "lipsticks and nylons". It sounds like the sexist cliché of women liking things connected to beauty automatically makes them superficial, shallow and impure. It's even sadder when you remember that Susan always tried to be mature to protect her siblings. I would've liked it way more if Lewis had referred more to society's norms and standards that can be harmful to faith...and all in all give her a more open ending as said in the video

[@ApacheMagic]

He wasn’t that evolved

[@internationalrelations4973]

I mean, we should take into consideration the time when Narnia is written because a writer's era of living also impacts their way of thinking, and thus writing

[@m3gstarrr436]

@@internationalrelations4973 yes and that writers era was very sexist but it was still his choice to keep that mindset

[@Error_-ct2vp]

@@internationalrelations4973 yeah terrible people

[@Error_-ct2vp]

@@ApacheMagic that’s a Christian for ya

[@linds5351]

Narnia was my escape from all my hardships as a child, I didnt even count how many times I checked my wardrope. I geniually believed in it. Thank god I had no idea it had an ending like this. It would ruin my childhood

[@oceanelf2512]

I still read the books, except "The Last Battle" and I usually end up skipping over the gag-worthy Aslan stuff. I love the other characters, and the adventure.

[@sofiemagko5911]

Thank you for addressing that. Narnia ending left me very confused as a child. Also I think it might be a very interesting take imo to show Susan loosing faith after seeing what happened to her siblings. Harsh reality that doesn't let her believe in anything anymore

[@jools7930]

If Netflix ever does adapt the series (and carry it on for long enough to reach the final battle), and focuses on this aspect at all, I think it would be really interesting if the narrator of the series turned out to be an older Susan.

[@daddyyahweh9328]

When I was in my pick me phase in middle school, I enjoyed the fact that my least favorite character, aka Susan, was just 'another fake girl' who didn't get to go to Narnia. It kinda felt like when the boys let you hang out with them in the secret clubhouse, and tell all the other girls 'no girls allowed'. It made me feel special that I got to go where the popular girls didn't. And then I had to grow up super quickly taking care of my grandma with dementia along with my parents. now I am an only child except for my half brother, but he's 12 years older than me. What this meant is that my parents were forced to spend hours as caretakers, and when we did hire caretakers, those people were neglectful and it was a hassle to ensure they gave good care to my grandma. What this meant is during highschool, my parents often would give me money to get food, and I would see them mostly on weekends. And sometimes I had to go take care of my grandma on those weekends. It wasn't a BAD childhood no, and I am glad of what I learned, but it definitely was one that made me relate to Susan. So when I read the books again, and realize what happened to Susan, it made me cry inside. She was forced into a situation where she couldn't win. She was 'too sensible', but when she began to enjoy herself she was ripped away and forced back into reality. I definitely would react the same way as her, making sure to not have an attachment to the club that kicked me out TWICE, the second time PERMANENTLY. Susan deserved better, and while I still love the books to this day, I've always advocated as well that the Susans deserve respect and love as well as the Lucys.

[@oceanelf2512]

Yes. I think everyone was given a raw deal in the end, and especially Susan. There are things I love about the series, but not Aslan or the apocalypse type ending, and certainly not the way Susan's own dead relatives dismissed and trash-talked her just because she needed to separate herself from a fantasy world that kicked her and Peper out twice. Peper would have as much reason for feeling let down by that. Why he didn't, I'll never understand.

[@TheLastSane1]

@@oceanelf2512 Its been a long time but I don't think they new at the time of those words that they where dead and would never see her again. I seem to recall that being before the reveal but I might be remembering it wrong. So they where just complaining about her as siblings will do about an older sibling but they do love her and just find her being silly for not believing as they do. I don't think they understand they will never see her again, and that they left her all alone in the world.

[@just_some_greek_dude]

@@TheLastSane1 did they ever learned that they died because it's weird that they didn't asked how they are back in Narnia when they are adults

[@TheLastSane1]

@@just_some_greek_dude they learn later at the end of the book but the book ends like literally right after Aslan tells them

[@catbowserfantasytherapist3132]

I remember reading a short fanfic, maybe 2k long where they explored Susan’s grief, her anger and then Aslan appeared to her in her dreams, creating a catalyst for her to return to Narnia by accepting what she knew to be true. I loved it. Would have been awesome if we got like a brief epilogue on that or something

[@oli.4409]

i completely agree, but like CS Lewis said that is too mature for a book that is meant for children! I think that’s why he encouraged fans and others to write the ending themselves, with this exact storyline

[@tonichan89]

Wow. Yeah, that's... a dick move, especially of her family imo, that their love would be so conditional.

[@TropeAnatomy]

yeah by far the most baffling part is the lack of concern from her family while she's probably on earth intensely grieving their deaths

[@harringt100]

@@TropeAnatomy I think it's less intended as indifference to Susan than a depiction of the joy of heaven when wordly concerns (even ones as important as family ties) fade away. Like it says in Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no [...] mourning [...] for the old order of things has passed away." Lucy, Peter, Jill, etc. didn't actually realize they were dead during the audio clip that glosses over why Susan isn't there, and once they knew that they were already enthralled with Aslan's country and so relieved they didn't have to go back. I guess that's how I took it when I was a kid, at least. There were a number of things I found weak or dissatisfying about _The Last Battle_ but the whole "Susan exclusion" didn't really bother me that much. It's a little surprising now seeing all this stuff about how angry it made other people, but I guess I can understand.

[@RED-my9hl]

christian love is quite conditional

[@Albanana]

​@@RED-my9hlHow so? Christians "love thy neighbour as thyself".

[@RED-my9hl]

@@Albanana yeah because throughout history Christians have demonstrated such love to people

[@buzzardbeatniks]

I grew up in a very religious environment and was read these books when I was young, my father being sure to point out all the Christian lessons - I was very disturbed by Susan's story even having all the context and Christian training. I felt resentful towards the other kids and Aslan and it actually soured my view of the Christian doctrine that would justify her exclusion from heaven. This disturbance in my thinking bled into my real life creating a doubt as to the morality of a faith in a God that would treat someone, a former friend, no less, so calousely. It planted the first seeds of doubt which led to eventually by the age of 12 or so realizing that I didn't really believe in the Christian religion at all.

[@smkemmett3562]

I'm sorry for your hurt. I, personally, don't feel that Aslan / Jesus would really behave like that. Jesus is always calling us to Him. We can accept His merciful invitation if we choose. The Susans in this world can change their minds, change their focus. She was once a queen of Narnia, and could be again, IF she doesn't abdicate/ abandon her throne. Perhaps Susan lives longer so she has the chance to find her faith in Narnia again? I hope so. And I hope you do, too. (The Bible story about The Prodigal Son is encouraging here, if you'd like to read it.)

[@draughtoflethe]

I always thought that, in the final book of the series, instead of writing an allegory about Christianity, Lewis inadvertently ended up writing an allegory about Christians. Her siblings' and cousins' glib and callous dismissal of Susan certainly echoes the way many Christians talk about people who don't share their beliefs. Lewis was accidentally telling on himself.

[@crazydragy4233]

@@draughtoflethe Indeed. Quite a few people are pointing this out in these discussions!

[@OKHolly]

I had the same experience. When I was younger, I was always sad for Susan that she was left alone, especially since everyone acted like she deserved what happened to her. As I got older and began to question my Christian faith, I realized that the way Susan was treated was cruel, sexist, and lacking compassion. And if this story was meant to be a reflection of Christianity, I wanted no part of it.

[@piewdisiegaming]

to bad for you the bible is based so is cs lewis

[@elizabethashby2232]

Someone should write the adventures of Susan penvensie. She was my favorite character and I also hate how she was done so dirty. Someone should right about her life after the train wreck and how she slowly but surely earns her place in aslans country again

[@fantasyfiction101]

There’s probably a lot of good fanfic if interested

[@DarkFaeCosplay]

We were getting book you know that right? But we can’t one by the author anymore instead we getting fanfics so we canonical don’t know her real fate

[@chooseyourpoison5105]

There are lots of fanfics that deal with exactly that

[@Angela1111122222]

Honestly I don't think it's even worth it seeing how her siblings damned her and Aslan is a sociopathic I dunno even what

[@andreaduarte7833]

@@fantasyfiction101 please drop the names ;-;

[@noahs.6209]

I think it's fitting that Aslan doesn't mention Susan or shows consern about her fate. Lewis never presented him as all-good god - he is a carnivore, a punisher and an destroyer of empires next to being a benevolent Jesus-figure. But the Lack of acknowledgment that Susan's fate is messed up really makes the other Pevensies look like little shits. Peter even seems ashamed of talking about her and once they reach heaven who cares about the sister left on earth, who is probably crying her eyes out right now? It depictes the siblings as flawed, as short sighted and egocentric. And they really shouldn't have flaws at this part of the Story; they reached the end of their worldly vices and should be free of any sins, since they are in paradise.

[@mike-mz6yz]

yeah but its an interesting thought experiment. If you go to heaven are you capable of sadness for those left behind? I mean if heaven is this great place where everything is perfect you would want all your loved ones with you right? Still that cant be possible if heaven is real, I mean you can love people who do bad things and wouldn't make it to heaven. So maybe if you go to heaven you just dont miss those who dont make it? Its something I have wondered about a decent amount. How would a place like heaven work? Especially since you could make an argument that an existence needs hardship and negative emotions to fully enjoy the good things.

[@JTF2402]

There are no tears or sadness in heaven. So that would actually make sense

[@mike-mz6yz]

@@JTF2402 but then do you lose your humanity? since if you no longer are saddened by people you love being in pain thats a drastic change to who you are.

[@JTF2402]

@@mike-mz6yz Good question! I don't know. But what makes heaven heaven? Cuz if heaven is perfect, then why would there be pain and sorrow... Revelations 21 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither be sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Read the entire chapter for context.

[@fadedpages]

@mike3455 I would say in a way, yes. You aren't human in heaven. You shed the pains, desire, and sin associated with the world of the flesh and become part of something divine.

[@orwellfan8662]

I've always found it odd no one talks about how messed it up it is that the four children GROW UP in Narnia and then return to our world as children again. So they went through puberty? I seem to recall there is even a reference to them having lovers in Narnia. This makes me very uncomfortable. Any thoughts?

[@Liz-bt9df]

yea! its interesting no one really mentions that they spent decades in Narnia then had to come back like nothing happened. this definitely messed with their minds especially going through puberty again and childhood but with their adult brains.

[@gerria2000]

Lovers in the 1950 sense didn't mean having sex...until you were married, which they weren't.

[@orwellfan8662]

@@gerria2000 I didn't mean having sex, I meant having adult emotions and desires. I myself was a child in the 1950s so I didn't think they had sex. They were adults in Narnia for many years and Lucy and Susan had suitors. They ruled with wisdom. They had adult agency, then they became powerless children again, with puberty reversed. To me that all would be a horrifying change.

[@Dontwannaknoow]

Well that can be connected to the author a lot. He grew up during the world wars and fought in them. For people like that they were supposed to “go back to normal” after the war ended, go back to being children. This is something that can be reflected in narnia and the siblings. They are put through a similar situation.

[@orwellfan8662]

@@Dontwannaknoow That's a really interesting insight.

[@StellaMariaGiulia]

Growing up Catholic I perfectly understand the logic behind Lewis's choice. It's the frivolities of life without looking at the end goal. Also,- Imagine my dismay when as a child preparing for communion I asked my priest if good non believers and pets went to heaven. The answer was a firm no, no matter how much I tried to bargain, I was also told that it wasn't my concern, you''re not supposed to be sad for people who damned themselves. I'm happy to report I'm agnostic nowadays. Edit: since I’m getting a lot of comments questioning my choice to be a non believer: of course there are a hundred more reasons why I decided religions weren’t for me, but I haven’t got the time nor I want to discuss them publicly on the Internet. If religion gives you comfort and a sense of belonging I’m happy for you, but no need to call me stupid because I made a different choice. I actually feel more at peace, happier and more compassionate without god.

[@StellaMariaGiulia]

Also I imagine Philip Pullman not being a fan of C.S. Lewis. They're diametrically opposite

[@HxH2011DRA]

Damn, that's a fucked up thing to say to a kid

[@greenergrass4060]

Its hard to sleep at night thinking so many people (who dont accept Jesus as king and savior) wont go into heaven and suffer eternal torment.

[@TindraSan]

@@greenergrass4060 Which is why alot of ppl (myself included) aren't very attracted to that brand of christianity.

[@StellaMariaGiulia]

@@greenergrass4060 please don’t on my account. I might be agnostic because I have a scientific mind but I especially *chose* not to be a Christian. A religion that operates on 2000+ years old rules, who discriminates on women and LGBTQIA+, who meddles with secular affairs when it’s convenient and not useful and that professes to be all powerful and yet allows senseless evil, I want no part of it. If I’m wrong, I don’t care. If god exists, all I ask for is to have my Karen moment, speak my mind and then go happily wherever I’m supposed to go.

[@Octobris]

The criticism for a character for getting interested in "shallow things associated with womanhood" strangely fits well with the author's religion..

[@92JazzQueen]

You have misplaced sjw system

[@sifravanloo6972]

The whole book is based on the Bible/Christianity

[@mackaylacook148]

And fits with his other writings

[@smkemmett3562]

Jesus also criticized men for being shallow and worldly, though.

[@Vivi_Pallas]

Ah. I love misogyny.

[@Kaki-f8c]

The other sibling's apathy towards Susan not being with them in heaven reminds me a lot of the Christians I grew up around. As a kid when I still believed in God I never understood how they'd be so okay with 'non-believers' going to hell. A lot of my friends weren't Christians and I couldn't fathom being in heaven one day and them not being there, but instead in hell. My parents always told me that it wouldn't matter to me anymore once I was in heaven bc emotions like sadness or anger don't exist in heaven only joy and positive emotions. That's kind of when I started to doubt my faith as I couldn't imagine being fine with the knowledge that people I love are experiencing eternal torture while I'm supposed to be forever happy.

[@Lilitha11]

Religion is just a coping mechanism to deal with our own mortality. I think that is why people insist that heaven is only joy and positive emotions, because the idea that things are 'better' and perfect is comforting. Even if it makes no logical sense.

[@rachel.s.3089]

God loves and cares about the lives of both believers and non-believers. It is wrong for Christians to behave like this. None of us should be settled with the thought of seeing anyone, much less their loved ones, going to hell. 2 Corinthians 2:14 is one of the many verses that enourages Christians to spread the love of God. It says that God "...uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere." It isn't something meant to be enjoyed alone without the thought of other people.Our missions on earth is to evangelise and bring new believers to Christ. No one is to be left outside. Luke 15:10 says "...there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." I am a Christian and I find it very disturbing that there aresome out there who believe that as long as they are in heaven, 'non- believers' don't matter. I'm sorry. As Christians we should be better than this.That is not a correct representation of God's love.

[@nuckygulliver9607]

why do you think this? I know this is something that torments Christians. This is why many of them become evangelists. Not because they hate sinners. They are disturbed that people won't make it into Heaven. You were maybe exposed to people that weren't really Christians. Many other religions don't want you in their faith. Aren't you referring to them really? You completely misinterpreted Christians. This question torments every Christian but when they convert people you don't recognize this. I can tell you about Christians that converted a cannibal tribe in Canada but will you just call them colonizers? You've misjudged all of Christianity

[@Kaki-f8c]

@@nuckygulliver9607 bro what

[@CCI320]

I've noticed nonbelievers complain endlessly about God sending people to hell and they also complain endlessly about the evil in the world. So I would like to know what exactly do they want from God? Cause you can't have it both ways. Do you want him to deal with evil or not?

[@ForAnAngel]

It's never wrong to argue for more empathy.

[@strange144]

I read the books as a kid and when I read the last book, it legitimately ruined the entire series for me. I never re-read it and I probably won't watch the TV series either. I probably would react more maturely now if I read the series now but for me, it tainted the whole thing and made it seem like "Oh you basically have to be a Mary Sue or bad -> good to get into heaven. You can't be a normal person." It cheapened the story and all the characters I had grown to love. "Pshh, who cares about Susan? She's a non believer lol, let her rot on Earth then!" Also, from a now grown up perspective, I can't help but notice that this is a man writing so carelessley and unempathetically about a young woman thinking about stereotypically female things that (especially back then) were also popular in order to appeal to men.

[@92JazzQueen]

It's focusing on shallowy things that didn't allow her to join. You guys think she's just focusing on normal things, but it's the fact she grew to have a shallow understanding of growing up.

[@notyourdays]

exactly, i never knew how Narnia ended cause i only saw the first movie and now i feel like my childhood was ruined, lol

[@gracekang2161]

And she's 21. It's pretty fuckin normal for 21 year olds to be kinda shallow and more interested in their social life than their other responsibilities. Doesn't mean that they'll be that way forever. Losing your entire family who doesn't give two shits about you is a pretty horrific punishment for being shallow, especially when we know nothing else of Susan's vallues

[@ashez2ashes]

I had a visceral reaction to it like that as a kid too.

[@a.westenholz4032]

Had the exact same reaction as a child. The only one of the series I ever reread was The Horse and His Boy.

[@ru1634]

Everyone keeps mentioning how Susan lost her siblings, but she lost her parents too. They were in the same train accident and Peter, Edmund and Lucy saw them waving to them in Aslan's country. This means poor Susan was punished for growing up and forgetting (aka becoming an atheist) by losing her entire family

[@malysyforethought1195]

I have to admit that I always thought that Susan would inevitably end up back in Narnia eventually. Peter declaims Susan as no longer a friend of Narnia, however it is stated loudly and regularly that "Once a king or queen of Narnia, ALWAYS a king or queen of Narnia". I always thought that Susan had things left to do and, after a long and often painful life, the joy of "Further Up and Further In" will be a much greater reward.

[@mercuriology45]

i never red the books but I remember reading what happened at the end. Something that kind of angers me is the way Lewis portrayed Susan’s femininity as something negative, like God forbid a woman wanting to wear makeup and be interest in boys. Also I can’t blame Susan for not believing in Narnia anymore, after all she wasn’t allowed to go back, she had to focus on the real world now. Also the whole of her siblings looking down on her or her not being allowed on Narnia anymore because she didn’t believe in it,reminds me of how many times when you are not religious, in a religious family, they make look down on you or even loose contact. I heard that Lewis wanted to finish her story, which honestly I’m kind of glad he didn’t, because he would’ve probably made some story about how Susan went back to Narnia and believed on it again. It’s a pretty toxic mindset to have that once your family doesn’t view things the same way as you do, you deserve to be excluded. Also the way he describes her as her turning to be a “conceited silly young woman” . Susan really deserved better.

[@DaDunge]

0:15 I would argue things were going wrong already in the second movie. They made Caspian way more important at the expense of characters like Lucy and Aslan.

[@roflcopterIII]

I really feel like you glossed pretty hard over the gendered aspects of this. Another commenter pointed out one other big difference in the treatment of Lucy and Susan is that Lucy is much more of a tom boy/seen as less "frivolous" than Susan. There's a real tendency for people to view typically female interests or pursuits as less than masculine ones, and lewis pretty specifically derides Susan for you know, being into make up, fashion and parties. He could certainly have chosen other things to target Susan for to create the same impression of being led astray, but he went out of his way to specifically call them out.

[@jecsaundersjess]

I totally agree and it's just infuriating that OF COURSE it has to be the young woman who is the 'sinner' and doesn't get to go to heaven. Why is it always the young woman?!

[@Visforelvenshireling]

Loved this analysis! Very well put, and with way more fairness and empathy given to C.S. Lewis than he did for his character. What I don't get is this; Narnia is said repeatedly to work on a vastly different type of time than Earth. Why not have ageless (like Lady Poly) Susan show up at the gate to Aslan's country at the same time as her siblings and sob whilst hugging them because she hasn't seen her siblings for decades, but eventually she got there. Maybe have someone point out that if all of them had died at once it would have been too much for their parents? We never see them, but they existed. Not that loosing three out of four kids is great, but... For the other three it was train wreck, Last Battle, Heaven. For her it was the long road but she gets there eventually. Since Earth time has NO BARING on Narnia time, why couldn't she still have gone into Aslan's country with the rest of them? This is what I don't understand. It is my mental head cannon fix. I like your idea too! At least have Aslan say that her being shut out isn't necessarily permanent. Thanks so much for the great video!

[@Ru136]

The parents died in the train crash too. The children see them waving at them in Heaven!Narnia from Heaven!Earth and Aslan says they can meet up with them as all the heavenly lands are connected. So the 3 Pevensies who died got to have their parents in addition to each other and all their friends, just a cherry on top of their happy ending, while poor Susan has to survive on Earth with her parents gone as well as her siblings

[@silveritea]

Something most of these comments, and “The Problem With Susan” overlooks, is that Aslan himself has stated that he is many different beings in many different places - Susan has time yet at the end of the series. Her fate is not an absolute - there are other paths open to her. Aslan’s Country is connected to all the other versions of the concept of “Heaven” - she has just not followed the “Narnia” path. As a result, her story has not ended. The argument could be made that the other Pevensie children failed to move on to the paths available through their own world, and so when the Narnia path ended, Aslan pulled them into this ending, as they would not be able to follow other paths.

[@j.cr.1207]

I really like your different interpretation, thank you!

[@aleja.x8594]

I very much agree with your interpretation. The whole point of Susan staying in the world is that it isn’t the end of the story, it continues. It’s up to her what she chooses next in her life.

[@TheLastSane1]

It makes it more tragic in other ways. That the other children could not actually live in the human world. And perhaps they couldn't because all they knew or wanted was Narnia. Susan was the only one who worked with whatever world she was in Narnia or Earth. Susan is the Survivor of the group she is the one who adapts and grows. Lucy. Peter, and Edmund never recovered from Narnia, they were always wanting to go back, to live the lives they lived there before rather than grow up in the human world. Narnia is like a drug, Susan could overcome it, the others could not.

[@Kaimad3it]

Lewis denied her a purpose after spending all this time showing how she is brave and independent. Just completely cut off for simply being human.

[@reesehendricksen269]

FYI, of all the characters Susan was most like Lewis. Its not out of hate he showed this, just kind of representing what happened to himself in the character most like himself.

[@Alexander-the-Mediocre]

@@reesehendricksen269 Yeah and that's what makes it weird. He could have easily put in a line or two about the possibility her having a change of heart later in life like this video mentioned instead of just abruptly cutting her out with no empathy or care.

[@PrincessSerene]

​@Alexander-the-Mediocre but, see, that is the reality of our faith. Nothing is ever set in stone. We only know what we have been through and what we are currently living. Susan has the choice to renounce her faith forever or for a short time period and to return when she is ready. I do believe she returned and was welcomed back. But, that did not happen and could not happen until it was set in stone. Until it was in the present. Until she was willing to be faithful again and to renounce her claim to vanity. You don't promise things unless you know they will happen.

[@lucasnova323]

The part that sticks out the most is Susan. She is CS Lewis' stereotype of atheists, the shallow, "Oh I just don't believe in God because I like pantyhose and trinkets" atheist that he claimed to be. Reading Mere Christianity when I got older clarified Susan for me even further. Lewis was projecting his crude understanding of atheism onto a character and dispensed with all subtlety. Even as a young Christian boy when I read it, her part of the story seemed extremely forced and clunky. Lewis then tried to expand his horizons a little bit and include another type of atheist with his dwarfs occupying an invisible building, but it only betrayed an even more crude stereotype he held. The tribalist attitude of "you don't see things the way I see them, so you're just blind" makes its way into the story without nuance.

[@Kitty-hf6vq]

His crude understanding is even more blatant in the dwarfs characters from the Last Battle book. Reading the last book as an atheist felt like reading a bunch of caricatures about what makes an atheist and their world view

[@tiryaclearsong421]

My dad has a similarly crude understanding. People who leave Christianity don't want to wake up early on Sundays. Once he was a young man working insane hours at a factory and he preferred to sleep in on the one day he could. He claims he was atheist but it always seemed to me he was just tired and had no bandwidth for religion. Then he met my mom who is very religious and has been a more devout Christian ever since. He seems to only be able to tolerate church by reading the teachings of people like Lewis. They're more open and understanding than a lot of pastors or Bible studies tend to be, and that's kind of sad. Most of Christianity hasn't even accepted a CS Lewis level of empathy for sinners or other religions.

[@RusianSpy]

This ending is basically why I could never read the books, and I'm not sure if I'd want to watch the show. Even if Susan wasn't my favorite of the four, if I read (or watched) this and saw how the other three have no worry or sympathy for her, I'd be too disgusted and angry to finish. It's one thing to deny her a chance in this paradise, but the book goes farther by making her family decry her so heartlessly, and leave Susan with one of the most horrifying messes possible. Not to mention, it just paints all of her family as terrible and uncaring. As far as they know, they aren't going to see Susan again. Like...how could anyone be happy knowing that? Even if Susan would have gotten in later on in life, she's going to be devastated and traumatized by what happened (unless Lewis is trying to say she's so heartless she wouldn't care about her family dying, which...yikes). Not to mention, why can't they just pull her in some other way? It seems like there's so many ways to get people into Narnia, is there really no other way to get into Aslan's Country aside from horrifying train crash?

[@RetroRulzMyTown]

Agreed, that's why I prefer to view the movies as the real story.

[@jennifermoriarty2188]

They don't know they are dead

[@mandalindream]

One of the things the stays with me... is that Susan was dealing more with reality... where saying the things what happened to them... would just end in an asylum. I think it had to do more with loss of innocence. You can't leave that situation... without the anger of grief. She is like Wendy. She grew up with the reality around her, while everyone else had held on until they died young with it. She had more time. And in that time it turns into a bitter pill. She may believe and know Narnia, but sometimes it can leave a bitter taste in her mouth. Susan gets to live where Aslan's country isn't a reality. She is living through the aftermath of war. Of her family she ruled with dying. Now I kinda wanna write a book about Susan returning to Narnia and not putting up with anything. A delicious dictomony of reality and fantasy building to an even bigger story.

[@Ziroana]

The line about Susan is about the only thing I remember from the last Narnia book

[@ashez2ashes]

It was the main thing that still sticks with me too some 30 years later.

[@Melissa-sx9vh]

Me too! I read the last book around ten years ago and I couldn't tell you anything about it except that line. I didn't even remember about the train crash and their death!

[@FadedBlue2]

@@Melissa-sx9vh THIS! I haven't read the books since I was in grade school, so before the video started talking about the Last Battle all I could remember was that Peter was cruelly mean about Susan and something about lipstick. Cannot tell you a single thing about that book besides that bit. I completely forgot about the train crash and their deaths as well! Probably repressed it, because what the hell?!

[@gentlejellyfishsky843]

I never read the books as a child. I watched the first movie, and I Carley watched bits and pieces of Caspaian. At some point I remember learning about Susan’s fate and being horrified, but not truly believing it? Wherever I learned it from was a bit vague so I wasn’t sure if it was actually true. At some point in high school I noticed the books in the library. I specially picked up the last book and skimmed through it for mentions of the children, and I read the ending, and it truly devastated me. At the time, it was more the idea of Susan no longer believing that confused and bewildered me, and made me sad. Only recently did it click that since Narnia is an allegory for heaven, that I realized the true horribleness of her fate. And I cannot forgive it. I’ve never read the books. And now I don’t think I ever will.

[@unityedits3722]

Honestly, Neil Gaiman's short story is similiar to what my thoughts were immediately after finishing The Last Battle. All I could think about was Susan having to see the bodies at some point, without knowing that they were all in Aslan's Country, and how messed up that was for her

[@paladiana-maria8610]

I didn't finish reading the books, so I was completely oblivious to the ending up untill a couple years ago, when I watched or read something that spoiled it. I was in complete disbelief honestly, and I still am now, it just doesn't sound canon to me at all :/ like damn whut.

[@sanjivjhangiani3243]

I think the books suffer from the law of diminishing returns. Lewis thought he was finished with the stories when he wrote "Dawn Treader." It feels like an ending and might have been a better place to end. The Silver Chair and The Horse and His Boy are separate stories set in the world of Narnia. Magicians Nephew and The Last Battle are there to fill out the beginning and end of the series. Sometimes less is more.

[@woods_windows]

Growing up I always looked up to Susan and even saw myself in her, she was the character I related to the most and so when I finally read the last book I was really upset with what happened with Susan. I kinda felt like that just because she didn't believe she had no chance and that really made me loose hope in myself for a long time, cuase if Susan didn't make it because of things I related to, why would I? And the other thing was Lucy's lack of caring in that little bit at the end, that really troubled me because she had been such a kind, caring character to anyone but for some reason not for Susan and that just is sad to me

[@oceanelf2512]

I think there was a hint that Lucy was jealous of Susan somewhere in Dawn Treader, when she was tempted to say the spell that would make her incredibly beautiful. Giving the right circumstances, Lucy had the capability to become quite a corrupt and cruel person.

[@kristalgic1534]

Unfortunately, this sounds like a very typical fundamentalist Christian view, of course with a sexist cherry on top. A lot of Christians feel a sense of indifference and superiority over people who don't believe enough or have lost their faith. These books are very intentionally meant to be religious morality tales for kids, so the point of this ending was to scare them into not questioning their faith when they grow up, because if something happened to them they wouldn't get into heaven and it would be their own fault. If he had written about her redemption, it would teach kids that if you still believe in Jesus, maybe it is okay to be skeptical, or to like lipstick, and we can't have that now can we?

[@92JazzQueen]

He was Catholic and trying to pigeonhole him into a fundy really is obnoxious.

[@jkulls1]

It’s amazing that you can know what others feel! You must market that skill!

[@stepahead5944]

You sure sound judgemental.

[@notyourdays]

exactly what i thought

[@crow_g1639]

Keep crying lol

[@ebonyobrien5895]

We can't ignore how much Lewis' bitter and cruel misogyny played a role in how he treated Susan. It's disgusting.

[@kateconnor6240]

@S V But an interest in lipstick does not equate to being shallow. Lewis is being misogynistic because he implies that femininity is vanity, and doesn't even acknowledge all the ways men are shallow and materialistic. For example, Peter is interested in glory and renown, but he is still able to go to Aslan's Land. Susan can be feminine and still be a good person, but Lewis implies that femininity itself is what keeps her from entering heaven.

[@92JazzQueen]

That's a typical bad hot take on this. Again you guys think it's feminity but is really shallow feminity.

[@92JazzQueen]

@@vepri9421 again calling him an incel is just so shallow. It's the obsession with the shallow and how people will side with Susan's descent into embracing a skin deep understanding of adulthood

[@KanaHyoshi]

A lack of empathy for Susan. All these years, I couldn't figure out why I hated how her story ended. Thank you! That was it!

[@ginnyjollykidd]

I always thought Susan should have been explained better, too. She didn't do anything wrong. In fact a friend of mine wrote some flash fiction about Susan's thoughts and feelings reawakening in her, and the joy she feels from them impels her return to Narnia (New Narnia) with the hopeful words, "I'm coming!" This helped me reconcile with the ending of _The Last Battle._ coming finally home if at a later time and finally reuniting with family. In fact, such a reunion after losing them so in such a traumatic fashion would make their reunion all the sweeter to her. Agreed, Mr. Lewis could have alluded to her own personal journey she had yet to complete, but maybe he himself didn't know what her life would be at the time. And it might have been subject to subtleties of society at the time and his place in it that influenced his writing. After all, it was over 70 years ago when it was written.

[@beermarshal2070]

Thanks for this great and thought-provoking little video. I think I'll have to read Gaiman's story soon. I first read the Narnia books about 40-45 years ago when I was a teenager - I was an atheist then, had been since I first understood what others meant by "God", and still am just an secure in my un-belief today. But I guess I always liked certain things about religion, certain ideas - because I always liked Lewis and Tolkien, and I always liked hearing Bible stories and watching those Biblical epics that were on at this time every year. I think even if you aren't religious it's rather essential to try to understand a little bit of why and how others do believe - and I've read quite a bit about Lewis over the years and I think, right up through his conversion and on to the end of his life, he was a conflicted and often unhappy man, and I think he HAD to have at least one character reject Narnia, and Aslan's country, and God - and as mentioned, I don't know that that rejection was going to be permanent. But he did a very bad job of it and it's one of the reasons why The Last Battle is definitely the weakest of the books.

[@someotherwag]

LIpstick and nylons are associated with girls growing up and getting a sex life. It may be that she was punished for wanting a boyfriend. When the kids grew up in Narnia and then reverted back to children in England, it's interesting that they left no spouses or significant others behind, like they weren't supposed to live normal adult lives.

[@charlieflight6124]

Since the golden age was a time where Narnia was a land of animals, (the ancestors of prince Caspian didn't arrive in Narnia until way late into the golden age of Narnia where peter and his siblings planted the apple trees) I fully doubt they would get any relationships with anyone there, the closest one I could stretch is Lucy and Mr. Tumnus. But in book 3 (The horse and his boy), they stayed friends and nothing more. And since Susan was actively trying to run away from getting a forced marriage to the prince of calormen in that same book, I can safely say that, No, they had no spouses or significant others, they had friends, yes. But no significant others. Because there were no humans in Narnia at the time except them. (Unless you count the sirens that sang for them during their coronation, but even then that becomes a debate on whether mermen/women count as humans, etc. Blah,blah technicality,blah,blah, etc. )

[@someotherwag]

@@charlieflight6124 What happened to that cab driver and his wife who were there when Narnia was first created? Did their family line not continue?

[@charlieflight6124]

@@someotherwag their family were the ones responsible for taking care of the first generations of animals in Narnia. I'm pretty sure their children wouldn't have much to get together with. Unless of course..... * Sweet home Alabama plays in the distance * Yeesh. No, let's not think about that. All in all, until prince Caspian's ancestors, the only native humans in the world Narnia takes place in, are the calormenes. Who stayed in the desert lands until one Tisroc decided to expand the reign of calormen. Every other human was a descendant of prince caspian's ancestors.

[@nidohime6233]

@@someotherwag If I remember well the cab driver's children ended marrying forest and river nymphs and other nature spirits, so there is speculation the reason why there where no kings and queens in Narnia was because none of their descendants where human enough for the position. Why only favouring humans over others? I don't know.

[@Simply_Sonder]

I forget why I subbed until I started watching. Phenomenal analysis, this is a very high quality video and hope to experience more from you!

[@TropeAnatomy]

Thank you so much! 🙏🏽

[@pitpat2928]

“susan is too materialistic to come back and live it up in aslan’s country with us” just comes across as an ironically shallow excuse to wrap up a heavily religious story with “better believe and be righteous kid or you’ll never go to heaven or know happiness” which is actually lowkey traumatizing for the end of a children’s series.

[@FabalociousDee]

Not to mention completely self-righteous. The symbolism in and of itself is messed up. Instead of dealing with the complexities of a material world in which people are not accepted for who they are, we're given a cop-out option of being in Heaven where one is forever a child.

[@gardnerhill9073]

The biggest problem was that Susan was written by a man who had absolutely no interest in understanding teen girls. Lewis had no problem with girls as long as they were as much like boys as he could make them (Lucy, Jill), but if they were "girly" in any way they were beneath contempt.

[@chsparkle]

It's funny Susan is the only one who has a chance to find a partner, have kids, explore the world, experience life, grow old but it's presented as a bad thing. Her family dying horribly is a good thing, they get to go to Narnia heaven and forget her, she gets punished by having to deal with their deaths. It does illustrate the kind of Christianity Lewis believed in, believers get to enjoy heaven and are brainwashed to be happy about everyone else burning in hell. For the crime of unbelief which of course includes those who honestly never heard of Christianity. Be interesting to see how a series deals with this, Susan is a normal girl who wants to experience life and is looked down by the middle aged male author for this. can't be the first born son, the overly dramatic Judas boy or the virginal youngest girl. had to be the oldest girl who's the only one who no shows much sense in the series. Her wanting evidence is a great trait but the books scorn this, declaring logic is bad, faith good.It's

[@felmargego2534]

that's practically christianity for you. it's all belief, logic has no place: basically you have to trust God with all of your heart without question. also the whole thing abt wanting to find a partner and having kids, exploring the world and all that stuff, is still considered a human/worldly thing. enjoying anything worldly makes you a worldly person, and that's the kind of thing christianity cautions christians abt, hence the negative portrayal of susan's life and fate.

[@yiyunzhuo5991]

You're so right

[@Lilitha11]

I remember the ending being beautiful in the context of the story but you are right. The ending is horrible if you think logically about it, since basically everyone dies. Not just the kids on Earth but everyone in Narnia dies as well. It could be said Susan was the luckiest of them all.

[@supersuit5790]

@@felmargego2534 another atheist take

[@Kitty-hf6vq]

I have seen families of drug addicted people treat their members with more support and acceptance than the Penvensies did show to Susan

[@mimsythemockingbird]

In Lewis' defence, I think the problem here is looking at the end of the Last Battle as the "end" of Susan. Her siblings died and went to heaven. They ended. She did not. She still had a whole life, full of opportunity to choose Narnia again. Burying her family, for all we know, gave her the impetus to turn to Narnia again and remember that she'll always be a Queen of Narnia. One last thought. What if Lewis did finish Susan's story? What if that story's called "Till We Have Faces"?

[@TropeAnatomy]

Hi! I remembered I have a youtube channel

[@mymanslippy]

Hi

[@TropeAnatomy]

Also sorry comments were disabled for like the first 30 minutes. I forgot how to youtube properly

[@feedtheorist9944]

i forgot ur channel existed but thx for the reminder i fucking love ur analysis dude (and ur voice holy shit)

[@TropeAnatomy]

thank you!

[@quentingray643]

Please put out more content. Your channel is awesome.

[@samspotz8r8s]

I remember that I stopped reading the series as soon as I learned Susan would stop appearing at all. I didn't even know THIS was her ending. I loved her the most and was sad I couldn't keep following her

[@millytza_]

It's amazing how we perceive childhood books differently as kids and as adults. When I read the final book as a kid, I felt something was wrong, but I saw it all like a playful fantasy story. Now, I get to look back and see how much my perception has changed. I feel bad for all the kids and especially Susan. :/ I'm glad this video popped up and raised some important questions about the book.

[@Giovanna-rv3gx]

This video legit made me cry. Not just a few tears. No. I'm full on sobbing. I was a teen when I read the book and I remember feeling so incredibly betrayed with Susan's ending I swore I would never read that book ever again. I absolutely need to read this short story now 😭

[@lucasnova323]

It wasn't just the glorification and elevation of the Christian stuff, it was the demonization of other religions that really put me off.

[@ladythalia227]

Exactly. When I read these books as an adult it always left me with a bad taste how he described those who obviously were representing Muslims as the evil guys and women as sinners

[@Impacatus]

Well, in Lewis' defense, The Last Battle showed a Tash-worshipper (Emeth) earning himself a place in Aslan's Country. Lewis praised elements of Islamic belief. That said, it is pretty confusing. There's a good and bad god, and the good one is sometimes called Aslan and sometimes Tash and the bad one is sometimes called Aslan and sometimes Tash, but really the good one is Aslan and the bad one Tash? Why does it matter what their "real" names are?

[@smkemmett3562]

@@ladythalia227 I don't think the Calormenes represent Muslims, because they believe in many gods/ goddesses, and Muslims definitely only believe in One. And Aravis and Emeth are good.

[@smkemmett3562]

@@Impacatus It's the wicked Ape Shift trying to mislead us for his own purposes, I think.

[@karisgranger6013]

The thing is, I think people misunderstand Susan's story and scenario. I remember as a kid thinking it was very sad, and it is sad. But that wasn't the end of her story. Firstly, I don't think her siblings were trash-talking her or had no empathy for her. When they were explaining why she wasn't in Narnia with them, they didn't realize that they were dead. They simply thought that when there was a jerk on the train, it was them being called back into Narnia and they did not realize it was an accident. Aslan had to reveal this to them at the end, when they wondered if they were allowed to go into his country. "We're so afraid of being sent away, Aslan. And you have sent us back into our own world so often." "No fear of that," said Aslan. "Have you not guessed?" Their hearts leapt, and a wild hope rose within them. "There WAS a real railway accident," said Aslan softly. "Your father and mother and all of you are - as you used to call it in the Shadowlands - dead. The term is over: the holiday has begun. The dream has ended: this is the morning." -The Last Battle So this shows they weren't being unsympathetic towards Susan. They actually didn't even realize they had died the whole time and were simply explaining why she wasn't there. Another thing is, it wasn't because she was into parties and lipstick and wanted to be grown up. After all, there were plenty of other grown-ups in Narnia that were very mature. And it wasn't because she was into beauty products either. There were lots of beautiful women in Narnia. It describes Lucy as being "gay and golden-haired, and all princes in those parts desired her to be their Queen." Lucy was a bit more rough-and-tumble than Susan, but she was still feminine and a beautiful lady. Also we can't forget the star's daughter who was incredibly beautiful (being literal star offspring) and Caspian married her, and she became a beloved queen of Narnia. Also there was Queen Swanwhite who was so beautiful that when she looked into a pool of water, her reflection shown like a star for a year and a day afterwards. C.S. Lewis had no problem with beauty or feminity, and he wasn't making a social commentary about women. Being into parties and nylons and lipstick wasn't the problem with Susan at all. It was that she saw those as the most important things. She thought those things would give her true happiness, and put all her efforts into the temporary things of this world and lost her faith. As an adult you can absolutely still have faith, but Susan lost hers. She saw the faith she once had as silly and childish. That's why she wasn't in Narnia. She actually didn't want to be there. It wasn't that Aslan didn't want to accept her. I believe C.S. Lewis modeled Susan after himself. After experiencing a lot of darkness in his life, he lost his faith and stopped believing in God. He then came back to God in his thirties after years of living without Him. He was trying to get a point across with Susan's story: how can someone lose faith in something that was once so clearly real to them? It can and does happen. Life is not an easy ride for everyone, and many people experience losing their faith. But it never says Susan went to Hell, or that her story ended there. Lewis says: "The books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She is left alive in this world at the end, having then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman. But there's plenty of time for her to mend and perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end...in her own way." Also there's the famous saying in the books "Once a king or queen of Narnia, always a king or queen of Narnia." When you are really saved it is impossible to lose your salvation as a Christian, even if you fall away for a time. True he did not clearly tell us what happened to her in the books. But maybe that was for a reason. Maybe he wanted us to discover it for ourselves. There are things you don't understand as a kid, and then suddenly you realize the deep meaning in them as an adult. I think that's actually beautiful. Kids think more simplistically. As an adult, you dive deeper. I get not everyone likes it this way and I can understand that. But maybe he left a hidden gem for us to find?

[@Alexander-the-Mediocre]

Doesn't matter that they didn't know. This is the final book and so the tone it take on her is the tone the book is trying to portray. Its not just that the characters its the execution of the story has no empathy for her. How hard would it have been to change the dismissive tone to a more somber or empathetic one in which they know they are dead and she isn't and included something like Lewis did when he wrote to the little girl that she has time to mend and perhaps find her way back. The book ends with being dismissive and uncaring about Susan so that how we as the audience are suppose to treat Susan as well for turning away from the faith. Lewis could have conveyed the same ending with the same message about materialism without treating Susan that way.

[@hannahb4309]

Man, you never miss! Another awesome video! Very well thought out, and I appreciate how you balanced defending what you agreed with as well as arguing against what you didn't. I agree with you, I hope Netflix doesn't change the ending entirely, but adds empathy and clarification.

[@TropeAnatomy]

Thank you!

[@RaineStormFlood]

"She's being punished in an extreme way that doesn't match what she has done." That's... that's the entire concept of the Christian Hell. An eternity of suffering for the crime of unbelief.

[@smkemmett3562]

Sorry, don't agree with you about hell. Selfishness and hate, and indifference lead to hell. Love and compassion and caring for others and trust in Jesus lead to heaven. Remember Emeth, who didn't know Aslan, but served Him in life and recognized Him after death.

[@mattattack75]

@@smkemmett3562 you can have your feelings about hell but at the end of the day the bible explicitly says how to get to heaven and how to be sent to hell. It's basically believe in Jesus, an ultimately immoral system of dictating eternal punishment

[@ruth4376]

I really love the way Susan was handled in the movies, just some few subtle scenes and comments made it obvious that Susan is older, she's having to deal with the stresses of being a woman in the real world (as opposed to Narnia), and she's used denial as a coping mechanism to accept the fact that her life will never be as good as in Narnia and she's just got to accept the real world, the way she's treated and her opportunities. I think her position as an 'unbeliever' is much more out of self-protection (and the trauma of not being allowed into Narnia anymore) than anything else. Edit: I really wish CS Lewis had written that 'adult' story about Susan's story

[@allisonj905]

That was beautiful. As someone who has grown up in church and religion, has left behind that life and tries to be good for the sake of being good, it has always bothered me thinking that God will punish me for having had a more complicated experience than others I grew up with. I don't not believe, but I don't necessarily believe what I was taught. If there isn't hope for Susan, then there is definitely no hope for me. And for what? Seeking answers? Following my own path?

[@aestheticalrose4553]

Personally I always got the impression that C.S. Lewis knew that this is where he wanted Susan's story to go, but was disturbed and uncomfortable with his own revelation. I am an amateur writer, nowhere near the skill of anyone like C.S. Lewis, but even I have had those moments where I had created a character and knew in my heart where their story would end and it disturbed me. I think maybe Lewis didn't know how to present Susan's predicament and therefore, brushed over it. In the end, brushing over it did more harm to character, the story, and the psyche of the young readers than he ever intended. I agree with the video that he definitely could have done better, but I don't think because he brushed over it that it makes him a sexist or that he doesn't like Susan. I just think his own conclusion to her character made him uncomfortable. This is coming from someone who as a young person, Susan was my favorite Narnia character. I even took archery classes because I wanted to be like her. And I remember the night that I finished the Last Battle going down and crying to my mom, not just over Susan but over the fact that everyone else was dead. So I'm not coming at this from the perspective of someone who didn't like Susan or who read the books later in life and, therefore, found the conclusion less disturbing than an child might.

[@chipmunkpark8826]

When I was a child and watched the first movie (I didn't read the book back then because I was 5), I connected A LOT to Lucy. Because...I've always been kind of a dreamy child. Always lived in the clouds and thought everything was possible, and I think every child is like that. Now, as a 20 year old, I can see how I've changed and I definitely understand Susan's outlook in life. Once you've experienced the world is harder to believe in anything... You can literally tell a child that clouds are made of cotton candy and they will believe you, but much of their ability to "believe" is due to their ignorance and lack of education. IMAGINE a world where humans didn't question anything, or weren't curious at all? If all people were like Lucy we wouldn't advance...it thanks to people like Susan who question reality that we get to experiende technological and scientific advances that help millions of people🤷🏻‍♀️ This is my opinion

[@92JazzQueen]

Yeah turning into a vapid shallow woman let's just do scientific break throughs.

[@katherinemorelle7115]

I was one of the ones who HATED the ending, mostly because of how it treated Susan, though I also didn’t like the idea that all the rest were killed so young, and that was supposed to be seen as a good thing? I was at an interesting time of my life when I read the Narnia series. I read it book by book, over the course of about 18 months. I had to wait a while between each book as I couldn’t afford to buy them all at once, and my tiny school’s library didn’t have them. Which is pretty strange, honestly. They had the Tomorrow, When the War Began series, my favourite book series of all time, that I read after Narnia. It was quite the step up in maturity level. But Narnia is a much bigger series than Tomorrow, which is not really known outside of Australia. Maybe they used to have them but they were stolen and they hand not gotten around to replacing them? Either way, I read the first few while I was still a Catholic. But by the time I read the last one, I was an atheist. I really didn’t like when the nuns at school said that non believers, even if they were incredibly good people, wouldn’t get into heaven, and I didn’t like it when Lewis said the same. I’d already had a very swift turnaround on the whole religion thing, so I was not likely to just accept it, and I’d already come to the conclusion that Aslan was a bit of a dick. I still have some fond feelings for the first few books, but the extreme religiosity of them is a turn off for me, and became so as soon as I realised that it was there. I don’t dislike all religious allegories- I liked Harry Potter well enough. And I LOVE the 1992 Australian cast studio album of Jesus Christ Superstar (I can’t stand the movie version, it’s way too cheesy. And John Farnham is the best Jesus in history, I will not be taking debate about that). And JCSS is just plain religious. But while I can really get into the story of Jesus as a story, I can’t do that with Narnia. I find it too moralising, and in a way that reminds me of religious people that I don’t particularly like. It was Susan’s ending that made me realise just how religious the entire series was (I know I was slow on the uptake, but I was only 10). And it kinda ruined the whole thing for me retroactively. Kinda like how the atrocious ending of GoT ruins the entire series, even the good seasons. But at least my next book series was a winner! It is a about a bunch of country teens in Australia realising that they’ve been invaded while they were out bush camping, and then forming a guerrilla group. Like I said- a bit of a step up in maturity level. But it’s still my favourite book series of all time, and holds up well enough that I reread it every few years, even now I’m an adult.

[@lemsip207]

I got into Arthur Ransome before I read the entire The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe series. Because by the age of ten I wanted to do real things such as boating and camping and I could do that vicariously through his books before I could actually do them. Not have imaginary friends, fantasise about meeting a talking lion or fantasise about secret worlds.

[@Amber86queenbee]

To be honest though Tomorrow when the War Began is a much more popular series in oz and more modern. I don’t know when you went to school but in the 90s Tomorrow was more frequently checked out of the library (along with Harry Potter) at catholic school then Narnia. That’s not to say some wouldn’t like a classic like Narnia but I am not surprised at a school choosing instead what many kids would read here.

[@yannaloise-d431]

Bonjour,je parle en français parce que je maîtrise pas très bien l'anglais, moi aussi ,j ai été choqué mais par pareil parce qu'on dit toujours aux catholiques français dont je fais partie que tout le monde même les athées et les autres croyants iront au paradis pour leurs bonnes actions et leurs bons coeurs.j ai été choqué que Susan n'a pas le droit de rentrer au pays d'aslan en lisant le livre parce qu'elle n'y crois plus et que c est injuste comment Aslan peut se présenter comme juste alors qu'ils se montrent injustes avec ceux qui ne croient pas en lui et qui comme Susan font des bonnes actions et ce peu de profondeur intérieur qui lui est accordé , évidemment qu'elle pense à ça ,c est une jeune fille en 1948 qui a vécu son adolescence durant la guerre et qui a envie de faire sa vie ,j ai 20 ans et je suis dans la même chose ,dans les mêmes trucs de jeunesse ,les amis ,les sorties ,l'apparence .....

[@GabiDAmico]

Oh my god are you back?? Every video is so well put together and interesting even when I'm not super familiar with the source material. Thanks for another one!

[@TropeAnatomy]

Thank you! I appreciate it 🙏🏽

[@delicate_dior]

The worst thing for me was when she was identifying the bodies and Susan said that Peter just looked like he was asleep but Lucy and Edmund looked 'a little bit messier'. I'm litterally crying

[@n.s.5001]

Where did she say that in Lewis' books?

[@JohnDoe-xf8ew]

@@n.s.5001 This was Gaiman's story

[@johannaelloso9418]

And she said Edmund was decapitated. Hard thing to picture

[@IsabellaDoan-my6jf]

edmund was decapitated......😢😢😢😢

[@apnroxi000]

See it feels like the eldest daughter is just getting punished with taking care of her siblings...which doesn't feel different than many others experience being the eldest daughter. That care requires some sort of early adulthood attachment which isnt fair since there isnt much of a choice. You grow up faster having kids to take care of.