Natasha Lennard and Alberto Toscano on the Use of Fascism in the 2024 Election

Following the 2024 U.S. Election, we sat down with Verso authors to discuss the election results, what they say about the United States and the far-right movement, and what we can expect from Trump in his second term.
Natasha Lennard, author of Being Numerous: Essays on Non-Fascist Life, joins Alberto Toscano, author of Late Fascism: Race, Capitalism and the Politics of Crisis, to discuss the 2024 election and the failure of the Democratic Party to provide a legitimate opposition to the threat of fascism that they were so eager to call out.
Being Numerous: Essays on Non-Fascist Life
www.versobooks...
Late Fascism: Race, Capitalism and the Politics of Crisis
www.versobooks...

[@StateOfTheInitiative]

I watched the whole thing. Thorough analysis & assessment of empirical relations regarding unmet claims.

[@collindysart6472]

Fire the cinematographer.

[@JohnDoe-r6r7g]

Toscano is right. We need to work with govt officials to pass laws and regulations to protect people from ICE. Here in Oregon, we have laws prohibiting police and other agencies from cooperating with ICE. Outside of key border states, most ICE deportations come from hand-offs from local and state police. So strong sanctuary laws that exist in Oregon, and apparently Illinois, truly make a difference. These laws were passed by Democrats. Lennard unfairly and cynically dismisses all Democratic officials as hopeless causes. It is easy for Lennard to dismiss the possibility of protective measures coming from Democrats because she isn't at risk. I hate to say it, but if she felt more deep empathy with immigrants of color who are undocumented, she wouldn't be so dismissive of working in the system with Democratic officials.

[@mielieu1513]

Ok, the camera zooming into the hands constantly is hilarious and terrible

[@TheFlakey00179]

Fantastic as audio, but good grief what is going on with the pans and zooms?

[@anthonyfenton]

thank-you, but please, less frenetic camera-work next time!

[@highwayinterchange]

The Harris campaign did not run on a "woke" platform. She definitely tried to run as a moderate with her strategy of using Cheney and Cuban. However, the Trump campaign spent millions trying to paint her as a leftist and "woke." The assumption that running a more leftist campaign would have made her more successful fails to consider that it could have made her less successful, especially given the evidence that Trump's attacks painting her as a leftist, in a sense, did work (there's evidence on this). I'm just not confident that running more as a leftist would actually work. Never underestimate the ability of the U.S. electorate to make decisions that are totally jarring.

[@Existential8Ball]

As someone in both academic spaces and real life canvassing, academics are prone to becoming insular and self-serving. Voters weren’t ‘demystified’ by the fascist rhetoric because ‘left parties adopted immigration policies that embraced exclusionary nationalism which, taken to its extreme, has a fascist core. Voters identified this incongruity.’ This is utterly detached from conversations outside of academia. Voters, wrongly, do not care about Gazans outside a floating signifier of “peace in the Middle East.” Voters wouldn’t understand half the theoretical constructs invoked in this conversation. It’s not because they’re dumb, but are smart enough to know understanding them requires effort. They don’t care and are smug in their ignorance.

[@Kwisatz-Chaderach]

Read Dr. Paul Gottfried.

[@nothingmatters321]

"Calculi" are stones. You mean calculations.

[@Djordj69]

So the working class is merely seen as tool for real power ,facsist or otherwise,

[@ritornelloandrefrain]

Rich analysis... But for goodness sakes, Toscano: "...right?... right!?..... right....right...right?....right!?"

[@JohnDoe-r6r7g]

Thank you for this interview. But I was dismayed by Lennard's claim (based solely on wishful thinking) that Trump won in MO, AZ, and NV - where progressive ballot measures passed - because voters for those ballot measures abstained from voting for anyone for president. In reality, it appears that about 1/3 of those progressive ballot measure voters cast an affirmative vote for Trump. Some probably viewed immigration as a genuine crisis, others may have simply wanted someone to shake up the establishment and voted for Trump because Bernie isn't on the ballot and Trump does make populist economic promises. I worked for a national polling firm in the summer of 2016, and every day we spoke to multiple voters who would have voted for Bernie against Trump, and for Trump against Hillary. Most American voters are not as deeply informed or as sophisticated in their political analyses as Lennard thinks. I'm not sure Lennard has a grasp on the long hours, stress, and exhaustion working class Americans experience just surviving day to day, which leaves little time or patience for in-depth political news & analyses beyond headlines and sound bites.

[@Mr91Jmay]

It’s a delusion they have that immigration is not an issue for working class voters it just propaganda. They want working class to ignore their lying eyes

[@luhsprwhk]

The camera guy is terrible. Must be a fascist.

[@VigilantnotMilitant]

I'm glad that the Left has full-time professional thinkers (career academics), but the tendency to inflate your word count is tedious. And your class position probably makes this harder to see -- while it's true that from July 2024 to November 2024, Harris didn't run on DEI; Trump did. And Harris did run on DEI from 2014 to 2024. So in the eyes of voters, Harris, professional Democrats, and the DEI trainers are and were the wokescolds that the global right wing has scapegoated. Your separation from a communist party or even a small sect means that you are disproportionately swimming in the assumptions of the PMC and bourgeois intelligencia. But overall A for effort. Join a party though and learn to code switch when talking to a broader audience of workers.

[@000EARL]

Much talk of fascism without considering fascists' conception of Fascism.

[@janosmarothy5409]

For the topic of discussion, not really necessary. The reason is actually alluded to in the video itself: at the end of the day, fascism as a set of political philosophies is ad-hoc, eclectic, unsystematic, incoherent, vibes-based and demonstrably incapable of critically accounting for itself. The truism that Trump is to be taken seriously and not literally actually applies to fascism and the far right generally.

[@Djordj69]

Anti fascism is a useless political dog whistle. The "Left"has its own fascist impulse. The two go together; anti fascism and fascism it is debatable where the threat comes from.

[@mozartsbumbumsrus7750]

Why ignore the simple term "right vs wrong"? Is not mortality valid in human relationship? Apparently not. "Might makes right!" The weak are always wrong. Extinction anyone? Tennis anyone? More tea, vicar? Zzz zzz

[@gazgaz2359]

When you call everyone and everything fascist the word stop having any real meaning

[@Celeste-hl1kw]

That’s not even a thing. People are way too hesitant identify fascism where it actually is.

[@charlesmiv3842]

Typical braindead maga talking point

[@torquemaddertorquemadder2080]

We lost :( But you know what that means? Four years of happy virtue signalling! Yah!

[@johnmaisonneuve9057]

I couldn’t watch more than 10 minutes! Just blander - no concrete evidence explanation.

[@StateOfTheInitiative]

Imagine watching 10 minutes of a 50 minute video and then confused why you didn't get to the evidence. Brother, the problem is you haven't been doing the prerequisite reading.

[@johnmaisonneuve9057]

@ it would appear a critical frame of mind would be a very helpful way / mind for critical thinking.

[@Djordj69]

@@johnmaisonneuve9057 agreed

[@Djordj69]

But, Toscano is well worth listening to, Verso books not so much.