National Park Service citing AWDS on 4WD roads (is this the end for AWD off-road?)

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Many of the News stories out there have a blanket statement “no AWDs on 4WD roads. This is NOT accurate. Below is a copy and paste directly from Canyonlands National Park website (dated 7/11/2024) Island in the Sky Updated July 11, 2024 Scenic Drive: Open. Shafer Trail: Open. AWD recommended. Use caution. Potash Road: Open. High-clearance AWD/4WD recommended. Some washouts before park boundary. Expect rough conditions and mud after precipitation. Mineral Bottom: Open. 4WD recommended. White Rim Road 4WD: Open. High clearance 4WD required. Be aware that summer storms may impact road conditions. Taylor Canyon 4WD Road: Open. High clearance 4WD required. Some sandy areas when crossing in and out of wash. Lathrop 4WD Road: Open. Accessible with deep sand in places. Flooding may occur in the day use area. Long Canyon 4WD Road: Open. Even when rated as "passable," four-wheel-drive roads are challenging. High-clearance, four-wheel-drive vehicles with a low range gear (4LO) are required on the White Rim Road. Other vehicles (e.g., all-wheel-drive vehicles, and low-clearance or high-clearance two-wheel-drive vehicles) have difficulty negotiating the rough slickrock, loose rocks, deep sand, and steep switchbacks and are not permitted upon the White Rim Road. Vehicles higher than 9' 6" not recommended in order to clear overhangs. Permits are required on the White Rim Road. Carry extra fuel and be prepared to self-rescue. During winter, all vehicles should carry chains. The Needles Updated July 11, 2024 Front Country: UT-211/191 to Dugout: Open UT-211 from Dugout to Park Boundary: Open Main Park Road (including campground loops): Open Elephant Hill Access Road: Open Backcountry: Beef Basin Road/Bridger Jack Road/CR-107: Open. High clearance AWD/4WD recommended to reach Cathedral Butte Trailhead. Colorado River Overlook Road: Open Elephant Hill 4WD: Open Salt Creek / Horse Canyon: Impassable at Upper Horse Canyon. Six-foot-deep trenches and washouts due to recent storms. Peekaboo Road: Impassable due to water, quicksand, and dense vegetation across the roadway. Lavender Canyon: Impassable. Three-foot trench at junction with Davis Wash. When passable, 4WD required after park boundary gate. Even when rated as "passable," four-wheel-drive roads in The Needles are challenging. High-clearance, four-wheel-drive vehicles with a low range gear (4LO) are required on these roads. Other vehicles (e.g., all-wheel-drive vehicles, and low-clearance or high-clearance two-wheel-drive vehicles) cannot navigate the rough slickrock, loose rocks, steep ledges, deep sand, and steep switchbacks. Depending on the season, you can expect ice, up to two feet of water, quicksand, vegetation or rock outcrops that could scratch a vehicle, or debris that you must negotiate while staying within the boundary of the road. We recommend traveling in groups of two or more vehicles-both with winches-in order to facilitate self-rescue. Park rangers do not winch vehicles out. Do not attempt any roads if there is a forecast for heavy rains, which lead to flash flooding. Never cross flooded roads. You must have a permit on some Needles roads. The Maze Updated July 11, 2024 Highway 24 to Hans Flat: High-clearance AWD/4WD recommended due to sand ridges in the road. Areas of heavy washboards. Low clearance vehicles not recommended. Highway 24 to Horseshoe Canyon: High-clearance AWD/4WD recommended due to areas of heavy washboards. Low clearance vehicles not recommended. Green River to Hans Flat or Horseshoe Canyon: High clearance AWD/4WD recommended due to sandy stretches and rocky outcrops. Highway 24 is a faster route. Hans Flat to top of Flint Trail 4WD Road: High clearance AWD/4WD required due to rocky outcrops. Flint Trail 4WD Road: High clearance 4WD required. Poison Spring 4WD Road: High clearance 4WD required. Dirty Devil River not advised when at 100+ CFS. Stock vehicles may encounter difficulty at washouts. Hite to Waterhole Flat: High clearance 2WD/AWD. No services available at Hite.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Thanks @relicburn for updating me with an experience he had. Medano Pass in the Great Sand Dunes National Park turned him away in his lifted Honda Passport. The park ranger said that AWDs are no longer allowed up that trail. According to Relicburn, the park ranger said a lot of Subarus have been getting stuck. This is just me reporting, not my opinion, but is this a clue on recent events? I ran Medano Pass 4 years ago, and found it to be pretty easy except for some water crossings. It’s rated a level 3 with level 3 offshoots.

[@TheOffroadCamper]

This is interesting because many of the NPS vehicles are 2 Wheel Dr. high clearance pick up trucks and SUVs. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen a ranger out on the trail on a 2 Wheel Dr. pick up, work Crews usually are in 2 Wheel Dr. vans.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Update: shared by Dalton: “Looks like we just lost an area to hit the trails here in NC, local offroad group was abusing it getting 4x4 groups, mainly raptors to fly through it as fast as they can, and game and wildlife just hit them up and said it no longer allows any sort of off-roading”

[@davidchen6711]

I think it comes down to, the national park system is tired of recovering awd from vehicles from these roads. I’m sure recoveries are complicated, as the ecosystem is quite delicate. You’re not even allowed off trail slightly as the ground has living organisms in it.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

At 7:19 I mention that. There have been stories on the news many years ago about this.

[@mr_mcgoo2632]

@@davidchen6711 I understand why they are doing this, too many people go off road with street tires and thinking they can do anything.

[@johnstrand2247]

The Park system doesn't do recovery anyway. You still have to call a tow truck.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

The funny thing is that RWD trucks will go up those trails unnoticed😂

[@jimmyz3482]

Just stumbled across your channel. I really enjoyed your presentation and format. Usually I don’t go for talking head videos, but your selection of action videos running side by side with occasional graphics worked well for me. Great job! Fun and informational! As a HD 4x4 truck Overlander, we run into blockers as well - usually that most trails are made for Jeeps and Tacos so too narrow/small for us HD folks to enjoy. There’s always some limitation in trails whether OHV, or even restrictions to bikes and side by sides. It’s just part of the adventure. Specific to your topic, I would add that there should be some focus on the responsibility of the previous AWD vehicle drivers as well. I’m sure there were a number of them not being responsible and ensuring proper modifications to the vehicle,, tires, having appropriate self recovery gear, others with recovery capable support, etc. etc. So they ruin it for everyone else by forcing the government to intervene. And we all know how good the results are when government intervenes. Usually break something else while “fixing” what is broke lol. It’s a good reminder for us all to stay responsible, pack in/pack out, don’t trash trails, that kind of stuff. Because eventually they’ll go further. Imagine checkpoints where you can’t enter with any potential trash like snacks sandwich bags.

[@TheOffroadCamper]

I grew up in the 60s and 70s: camping, fishing, hiking, boating, with the grandparents and all my uncles and aunts. I have been all over the backcountry in the US in a 2 Wheel drive ford pickup and a 2 Wheel drive Ford Econoline van. I don’t remember anybody ever told us we couldn’t go somewhere. If we happen to get in over our heads and got stuck or had a mechanical; well, then it was our obligation to get us off the trail. I remember a few instances of blown tires and inappropriate jacks or we had to do so. The one thing that I remember, is that most rural Forest Rangers, parks service personnel drive 2 Wheel Drive pick up trucks.

[@GrizzlyPath]

Props, another hella real video Jon. Thank you.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@GrizzlyPath thanks Zack 🙏

[@Ridesaway24]

The original concerns seemed to be high clearance vehicles. I have seen that sign in many places in Utah and in some areas of North Carolina. In some private area they go as far as stating vehicle by name and tire size and lift required. Is this part of the same concerns or is it truly the driveline capabilities?

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@Ridesaway24 the NPS defines High Clearance as 8”, which almost all AWDs have nowadays, so I guess it is mostly about drivetrain. It’s also about wheel articulation and off-road clearance and angles. For example, a stock 4Runner has 16 inches of rocker clearance, and a stock Outback wilderness has 11.5 inches.

[@FearlessTrailhawk]

Canyonlands has trail cameras at the entrance/exit of most trails. That is why it was a delayed mailed citation using the description and license plate. As an avid offroader of a non conventional offroad capable vehicle, i agree with this rule. They are simply tired of recovering awd's that are where they shouldn't be. They only listed 6....of the hundreds of trails in the area.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Hello there Fearless Trawlhawk 👋, I’ve seen many of your videos. Yeah, the most important thing about the news is that, like you said, there’s so many more trails to explore, and the restrictions (that have been there for a very very long time) are for only a select number of trails. I know your KL trailhawk had a very unconventional way of locking rotation front and rear (with the use of 2 PTUs), but technically that meets the requirements. level 3 trails can be very rough for 95% of AWDs out there, and with the introduction of many CVT and DCT transmissions, that percentage is growing. The Cherokee KL trailhawk is on another, but where does this leave the Bronco Sport Badlands, Jeep Renegade / compass Trailhawk, and the ZF equipped Honda Pilot/Passport/Ridgeline and the next gen with the 10 speed AT? Unfortunately, these vehicles are clumped in with the entry level AWD systems. I won’t lose any sleep over it though, again it’s 6 trails in Canyonlands. BUT, recently hearing about how Great Sand Dunes national park is no longer letting AWDs through does hit a little close to home. We did that trail 4 years ago, and pretty easily in our ZF9 equipped Hondas. Our first gen Hondas had to get pulled up by our Gladiator. Had someone message me on instagram, and he was blocked from continuing on in his 3.5” lifted Honda that looks like mine, and he was told that too many CVT equipped AWDs kept getting stuck and that the area is now AWD restricted. Still not going to lose any sleep over it, but …. If this continues……. I’ll seriously have to consider my next step. Thanks for chiming in!

[@anthonydurling4093]

Thank you for your very refreshing honesty

[@jwc3104]

I somewhat agree with NPS on this. I've seen several broken down AWD SUV's (Forester, CRV, Mercedes GL to name a few) on the side of trails that needed emergency retrieval. Not saying 4WD's will not get stuck, but you know the chances. It's an elevated risk for the Park, The driver/owner, and the other people on the trail. Not to mention, the entire trail may have to be closed for few days to clear. (ruined my trip to colorado couple years ago... some Bozo took CRV to the black bear pass, got stuck, and the trail had to be closed for 2 days) I love challenging the Status Quo - like what you are doing with your Honda. But you had to do all these mods to make it capable off roader. But at the same time.. you know you could have just bought a stock 4Runner 4WD, and go wherever you were going without any mods.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@jwc3104 i absolutely think a National Park should do what it takes to preserve the park. They put all sorts of restrictions in place that might restrict 4WDs as well. No off-roading on muddy roads in the Grand Canyon for example, because it will negatively impact the terrain. I feel like I have to explain this far too much, but I use to drive a FJ cruiser. The onroad handling was so poor that I’d never consider driving any Toyota 4WD on the same platform. So, no, I couldn’t just buy a 4Runner. I wouldn’t even be driving anywhere. I enjoyed driving my Subaru onroad, but didn’t enjoy driving it off-road. The Honda is quicker, faster, bigger, more comfortable, has a quiet cabin than both the 4Runner and Subaru Forester. It’s my favorite daily driver so far. The reliability is undeniable too, 170K miles driven and never had a part fail on me on a trail. 13” of minimum ground clearance, while ground clearance isn’t everything, a stock 4Runner is at 9.5”.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

I've done Black Bear on my lightly modded Forester. It's definitely nothing I wouldn't drive a some models of CRVs up

[@TheYellowtom7]

Just because of vehicle claims it’s all wheel drive. It’s not actually off-road all-wheel-drive it could be just for snow.

[@agent_double_a]

Thank you for speaking on this. Quick question, when you are driving on a level 2 or level 3, what configuration do you have your vehicle in? Are you using Mud or Sand and manually shifting? Or are you just in Drive?

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

On a level 2, just in drive with traction control off. On a level 3 and 4 (in all terrain except mud and deep snow) I will typically use just drive, but pop it into 1st gear when driving up steep inclines or obstacles, and when driving down steep declines. I purchased a Scangauge 3 and it shows what gear my vehicle is in. I found that on some steeper climbs, the ZF9 will start climbing in its default 2nd gear, and will only switch to 1st gear when pushed or the gas pedal is mashed. Sometimes, even when 2nd is mashed mid climb, it will stay in 2nd. I never realized this until 3 days ago. Now I’ll be more mindful of locking into 1st proactively.

[@agent_double_a]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring Thank you, I appreciate the response. I purchased a 23' Passport Trailsport and have slowly started to acclimate myself and the vehicle to off road driving. Your page has been a huge help. Keep doing what you are doing sir, you can't imagine how many people you help. Love what you are doing and I look forward to your next adventure!!

[@JB-ss3bv]

I think the restrictions are fair, even though exceptions exist. I have owned a lifted forester with an aussie locker in the rear and it was very capable. We did some challenging trails in Colorado in it, but the lack of a low-range transfer case was definitely a weak point. Drivers that use a lot of wheel slip or momentum to navigate these trails (ahem SxS's too) cause a lot of damage to trails compared to a vehicle that can plod along in low range. Getting yourself stuck also puts others in danger or distracts emergency services from actual emergencies. I understand the frustration if you are one of the minority with a modified AWD vehicle, but the rules have to be written for the doofus who doesn't use common sense. I know it sucks, but in part this is why we traded the subaru for a gladiator.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@JB-ss3bv the video I did last year about Imogene pass with 4 CVT Subarus was the perfect example. 2 out of 4 made it up unassisted. It wasn’t easy for them that’s for sure, and scouting ahead in the Honda was very helpful to notify vehicles driving downhill that we were coming up. Having aggressive gearing in the Honda makes so much of a difference, and if anyone should be upset, it should be me. But I understand the challenges, and the restrictions are only for certain trails in National Parks. People can still go out and rent a Jeep, or take a mountain bike on the White Rim Road.

[@LionRunner]

Well said. And congratz on the Gladiator. I bet its an amazing machine. Sadly I have no seat time with a Gladiator. Maybe someday. My buddy just traded his Subi to a Wrangler Rubicon with Xtreme package. Its insane. He also have another Subi for onroad and light duty use with comfort and good mpg.

[@letzgow6110]

Bike paths have been getting 4x4’s and motor bike on their trails. If they can’t stop them I don’t see what’s the difference

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@letzgow6110 out here in California, we have Death Valley National Park. There’s always some idiot illegally off-roading on bad water basin. Some months back, a guy got stuck in the mud and then tried winching off a historic wooden statue from the early 1900s and knocked it down. It took a crazy effort to find the guy that did this. Luckily there was a guy that uploaded his dash cam footage to KZbin. I hear that they have trail cams in Canyonlands national park, so that’s how they’re able to cite people. Maybe they can do the same for bike paths, and they need to do something about the illegal off-roading in Death Valley.

[@DIYDad1]

I understand there's a lot of rules in place to protect the land and protect the lowest common denominator of drivers who might be out in these areas, but some of these rules are just arbitrary and outdated. I can tell you this much with AT's on my Forester I never felt like I was in any real danger but I know my vehicles limitations and I don't push my luck especially when driving solo, these are very capable vehicles. Having said that I don't regret selling it for a "true" 4WD like I have now in my Tacoma, just so much more torque and power when going up hills and over obstacles, I blame the CVT honestly, it really hesitated a lot especially on inclines of any sort. I read your description and the firearms rules just sound like a California thing lol. I'm never going there again because of those dumb rules, it's sad they do that. Knives and firearms are tools just like a shovel or a jack or a hammer.

[@JamesSymmonds]

I think the NPS needs to be more discerning in their application of the 4WD Lo high clearance criteria though. Shafer Trail in Canyonlands is described as a descent with barely any mention of ascent. As a descent, I've done it in a stock Honda Element. (Tires weren't stock but they also weren't anything like we have today.) I'm 100% sure I could do it in my current Subaru as a descent or ascent. Heck, I'm 95% sure I could do it in a rental sedan... as a descent and probably an ascent. The thing is going to rattle more than when I picked it up but other than that, I am confident that I can do it. And to be clear, I just looked. The NPS still as of today describes this trail as 4WD Lo high clearance highly suggested. So if someone sees something as simple as that listed with such criteria, they're going to be laxed about anything else with that label.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@JamesSymmonds I show the Canyon lands NPS website referring to the Shafer Trail as “AWD recommended”. www.nps.gov/cany/planyourvisit/road-conditions.htm

[@rickyaz8640]

You need the clearance getting to the trail along Potash Rd. Schafer itself is well maintained and doable by virtually any vehicle

[@eggdude5460]

It takes more brains to wheel an AWD vehicle than it does any 4x4 in the places you've been. I really think that unfortunately there's just a lot of people who get stuck, or worse get injured trying to do what you do. Let's not forget about the Ford Bronco Sport that came rolling down black bear pass not too long ago. I don't think this is a true solution to the problem, because a lot of trucks are AWD now-adays. But maybe temporarily this will prevent people who have 0 experience from trying to bite off more than they can chew in a stock subie

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@eggdude5460 yeah, it does for sure. It takes the least amount of brains with a Jeep with a Solid front axle. But there’s levels. Will restrictions be put in place for 4Runners without them? My Honda is much much easier to wheel than my Subaru, so why should it get clumped along with it? A Rivian EV isn’t allowed because it’s entirely its own thing, they’re incredibly capable and come standard with 34” tires. They’ll outwheel a lot of IFS 4WDs, why aren’t they allowed on some of these level 3 moderate 4WD trails? The physical Gate keeper is the best option. It should be difficult enough to represent the hardest obstacle on the trail.

[@TheOffroadCamper]

Since the 1960s, there have been multiple four-wheel-drive vehicles usually trucks and SUVs that utilize some form of clutch or gear diff between the front and rear wheels. Even today some of your “four-wheel-drive” pick up trucks have clutches or gear diffs between the front and rear wheels, but like my Jeep grand Cherokee they do usually have the ability to lock the transfer case. I don’t see how the average park ranger is going to have the engineering knowledge to know what system is in place on what vehicle was so many different variations in the market. I do understand that it is expensive and time-consuming for the park service to have to deal with disabled vehicles that were not up to the challenge., and I’m sure that is the meaning behind the enforcement of the ordinance.

[@Mebbwebb]

Little odd my Renegade TH which can easily do fins and things in moab wouldn't be good enough to do lavender canyon due to only lacking a true 4low

[@cyc4214]

Saw you in the wild today on the 91 W bound in heavy traffic this afternoon. I tried to catch up and throw the 🤙🏽 but you were hauling in a faster lane lol

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@cyc4214 that traffic was crazy, I was trying to get to a Doctors appointment. Was 6 minutes late 😖. What were you driving?

[@cyc4214]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring 21 Subie Outback. AWD unite 🤝

[@robertyoung8289]

Time to upgrade my friend.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@robertyoung8289 hehe, well that’s the point of the video, nothing has really changed, well atleast not yet. I have a very special 4WD in mind. Something that no one else is really thinking of. Something that would actually be an upgrade in more areas than just off-road. The reason I went away from 4WD is the Honda has been an upgrade in all aspects except offroad capability.

[@RegisteredNurseLA]

4x4 grand cherokee

[@coloradomallcrawlers]

Good to hear your thoughts on this!

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@coloradomallcrawlers thanks Dewie!!

[@williamkleeberg751]

Ticket worth paying?

[@RandomGuy-qm3mg]

guess I'll qualify for MSN's 4x4 definition in about a week, having a front locker put in my 99 Land Cruiser. 😄 Main gatekeeper is a drivers willingness to risk damage, you take your Honda places I'll never go, I'm too chicken to scratch it up and break something.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@RandomGuy-qm3mg haha! Pre Congrats!!!! Triple locked!!! 💪 That Birds Eye Gulch trail, while I was dealing with a faulty modification, I’m not sure if I’d have fun. That was a very rough trail, and I’ve said in the past that I don’t do trails beyond a level 4. A triple locked Landcruiser 100 won’t be struggling on a level 4 at all man 🤣

[@deansipe8334]

Oooh, I was waiting for this! 😂

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@deansipe8334 haha! The pressure was real!

[@Advntrwrx]

My old ram 1500 had a clutch pack for the transfer case, so it wasnt technically 4wd at all times, I had to buy a transfer case lock from BlackFox industries to clamp the clutch pack to avoid overheating

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@Advntrwrx ugh! Outliers! Haha!

[@Advntrwrx]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring according to MSN im not a 4x4 🤣

[@LinusScrubTips]

It’s just like side by sides being cheap and now everyone has one (even idiots). A lot more people can justify an AWD daily like you can, than a more purpose built trail rig. Larger population just means more idiots. When something gets accessible and/or popular, a few idiots in that large group ruin it all… sucks.

[@georgehudetz1233]

What's funny is that on the NPS website for White Rim Road, they have a picture of what looks like a white Subaru Outback driving the road. Guess they'll have to change that...🤣🤣🤣

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@georgehudetz1233 haha! I noticed that too! 😂

[@durtyflyadventures]

I think the national parks need to make better signage if they are going to require only 4wd. How many awd have flipped on black bear pass? None i believe. A bunch of 4wd have. So there are dumb drivers in both. Oh and don't get me started with side by sides flipping.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@durtyflyadventures I remember there were 2 ladies in a Bronco Sport that took the wrong line on a switchback and drove off a cliff. Driver error for sure, but you’re right, lots of 4WDs rolling on their sides, and many AWDs have a lower center of Gravity.

[@lostadamsgold]

It's about the DRIVER. Their experience and knowledge of their own vehicle - including of course where it can't go. I like the Gatekeeper Obstacle idea a bit, except that limits people who just want to run part of a trail and get out and hike or whatever. They should have a terrain park with ratings so people can get a feel for what a "3" is versus a "5".

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

It’s always a good idea to research trail difficulty before time. Apps like TrailsOffroad are very useful, I’m subscribed to them. Also, a big part of my channel is keeping it real about trail difficulties. For example, I’ve done many videos about Imogene Pass, which is rated a level 3. The ZF9 equipped Hondas drive up like they were a 4WD, the older Honda Pilots needed to be pulled up by our Jeeps, and last year we took 4 heavily modified Subarus and 2 out of 4 made it unassisted. The trail isn’t even that technical, it’s just steep and at a high elevation. As far as implementing gate keepers by the national park on the roads they only want 4WD 4Los on (where they would give out citations otherwise), it does a good job at eliminating the need for someone to interpret what a “4WD only” sign means. Also, since many of the other 4WD trails are open to AWDs it can get really confusing.

[@owequitit]

@@JonDZ_AdventuringI think they need to revisit their rating standards to make them more easily interpreted and understood. Especially with the expanding capabilities of AWD systems. I remember as a kid, even the Subarus were 4WD with a 2-speed transfer case. But they had no power, so it still took a lot of momentum to do anything. 😂

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@owequitit I just got back from a trip. The National Forest I was in was established a very long long them ago, well before AWDs were introduced (the first American AWD was made in 1980). There was a sign that said “Deep Sand 4WD only”. I know that sign really means 4x4 which equates to 4WD/AWD as opposed to 4x2 which means FWD/RWD. The problem is that many of these signs are antiquated. The Government will have no motivation to physically make their signage consistent. Out side of certain national parks trails, a vehicle won’t be cited, but an off-road recovery will cost atleast $1000, maybe $5000 depending on the complexity.

[@RKmndo]

Not all 4WDs are BOF construction. Jeep XJs, ZJs, WJs, KJs, WKs, etc. aren't BOF. The ones with solid axles can often articulate pretty well. Subarus also don't all have CVTs. The Crosstrek was offered with a manny tranny until this year.

[@richadent968]

There are many 4WD that have no front, rear nor transfer case locking so 100% traction can go to the one wheel with no traction. Many full size Trucks and SUVs have AWD today.

[@El_Dusty_]

If it has a T-case it has a functional center locker. If it has a center differential that can’t lock it’s not a 4-wheel drive.

[@richadent968]

@@El_Dusty_ I now back in 1979 several of the 4wd chevy pickup got stuck on ice. On a flat street.

[@blackdiamondrob]

i was in big bear last weekend, cant beleive the amount of assholes on the trail....just not nice people. some i would wave to and get no response. or just people doing stupid things disrespecting trails...maybe im just getting old and intolerant lol....great video btw

[@bruceyyyyy]

Aw man I was waiting for this video. Didn't think I would be in it wearing the same hat I am right now. Thanks AWD Expert! My 4.0 ZJ is AWD/4WD. I wonder if I could get in trouble by keeping it in AWD? I mostly just see this as the bureaucracy justifying itself. If the vehicle got stuck and needed a ranger to help? Yea cite them as shown here. It made it. Who cares? There is much lower hanging fruit per se that you alluded to re: littering. I agree with the gate keeper mentality for trails. The hardest should be the start. But if someone took a RAM 1500 do you think they would also get a letter? Those don't have a locking center differential. They're slip clutches not a 50/50 lock.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@bruceyyyyy thanks for the super informational comment. The one thing I would add is I feel that actual National parks are going to be extra precautions in doing what they probably feel will protect their park. Compare canyon lands to the Colorado trail system (that’s not considered a national park). There are no restrictions, you’re free to roll a Jeep on Black Bear Canyon or drive a Subaru up Imogene. If a trail becomes extra eroded from weather, oh well. You’re free to get yourself into as much trouble as you want, and if an off-road recovery is needed, it’s going to be expensive. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that there’s less pressure to maintain Colorado trails. Mother Nature is going to wreck them anyways.

[@bruceyyyyy]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring Just put a "4X4" badge on your Honda and you should be good. Posted this video on my forum. Enjoy all 8 clicks from there!

[@Jonasegway]

And cmon jon. You know your awd joined with your experience beats most 4wd vehicles anyday. That Ridgeline is making me wanna get one again. I just wish they got better gas mileage on the highway. I gotta drive far as fuck to get to the cool overlanding placed

[@Socal_392]

I guess I can’t take my 392 on these trails since it is AWD with clutch packs for 4hi 😂

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@Socal_392 haha! 😂

[@Jonasegway]

This is for the community... What is engineer pass rated at according to you guys? And what is cinnamon pass rated at? I've completed both (going up cinnamon pass and completing engineer pass in its entirety after doing cinnamon pass) with a stock as fuck 1ST Gen crv. Only thing unusual from stock is the brand new 1 size wider and one size taller tire installed on the stock rims. I had just enough power at that elevation to climb both without wheel slippage and ran stock road driving 34psi in all tires. My CRV made it through both. On engineer pass I had to be build out of three scenarios by a 24yr+ experienced off-road instructor but never scraped, rubbed anything and after still made it all the way back to Kansas. The only thing I've noticed was my brakes was getting a little hot but that didn't start happening till my last 0.8mile on engineer

[@garyonnen7634]

If you have to call for a recovery, except to pay 200 plus an hour from start of trip to back to the shop. Elephant hill is at a minimum two hour drive from Moab. Do something dumb pay the price.

[@edgarandreasyan521]

5:08 your scaring me 🥲 no more overlanding for me

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@edgarandreasyan521 it’s kind of hard to overland when your take your doors off your Tacoma like a Jeep 🤣

[@edgarandreasyan521]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring Hey man! no doors help my balls system work !😂

[@VideosOffRoad]

As you mentioned, a significant problem is the overhyping of the capabilities of AWD vehicles, leading to problems with drivers overestimating the capabilities of not only their vehicles, but perhaps their own skills, and getting into trouble as a result, thus making a bad name for the community. It's not good! Could even contribute to getting trails closed. I would even bet many people mistakenly think AWD is the same as 4x4, so lack of education is an issue as well. I totally agree with you that appropriate gatekeepers at the entrance to trails is a great solution. 👍

[@RKmndo]

Many 4WDs are overhyped these days too though. 4WDs with open diffs, poor clearance, poor angles, poor articulation, and vulnerable parts are common these days. There are also "4x4"s that are really just AWDs, with no 4Low, like the Jeep Compass and Renegade. Even my 1st-gen Highlander says "4WD" on the hatchback, but it's really just an AWD, without 4Low, without a locking center, and even without skidplates.

[@VideosOffRoad]

@@RKmndo I'll see your Highlander, and raise you a 3rd generation RAV4, which literally says "4x4" on the rear door! It has the same drivetrain your Highlander does. 😮

[@joemzd]

This is why I’ve been quiet, I’ll have 4WD *and* Subaru owners rising against me. 😅

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

These stories must be rough on Subaru of America. They’re the car brand that is the biggest supporter of national parks and now there’s national news headlines that totally goes against how their vehicles are marketed. I’m just bringing the truth to light. 1.) nothing has changed. There’s 1 single national park that restricts travel on a handful of roads. 2.) there’s plenty of 4WD trails that don’t have drivetrain restrictions. It’s crazy how many people of 4WD communities are excited about the inaccurate news headlines. They are happy about the idea of the government getting involved, and it’s amusing to see the reactions knowing that nothing has changed or will change.

[@owequitit]

@@JonDZ_Adventuringit’s simply because it confirms their bias.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@joemzd so, I was just told that Medano Pass at the Great Sand Dunes national park will no longer allow AWD vehicles. This was a recent change. Friend in a Honda Passport was turned away and he said the Ranger said that they’ve been getting a lot of Subarus getting stuck. I did that trail 4 years ago, so sad to hear I won’t be able to do it again. That’s alright, oh well.

[@tribalsean]

Great video., Brother! Well said. You hit a lot of really good points. I think gatekeepers will help a lot. I'm guessing they are minimal because of access for emergency vehicles. Thank you the video. Keep on Campin on

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Thank you 🙏

[@interst8erj968]

I tried an AWD luxury suv that had active traction control where I normally drive my stock 4X Taco. IMO lot of AWDs can work on OHV terrain but stiffer suspension and no low range really make AWD vehicles feel out of its environment.

[@mrvang8077]

It's all about greed when it boils down to the ridiculousness. If they ain't getting money they make more ridiculous rules and law just to get a piece of the pie. And who pays for it. YOU do the owner of the vehicle that loves the outdoor off the trail adventurer.

[@gamergeek8933]

Yeah not all 4wd systems lock the transfer case actually. The Jeep liberty had a low range transfer case that could be driven as awd. Chevy and ford auto 4wd also use a clutch when in auto mode. Some do not even have a low range. I like the gate keeper idea. If a trail is tough and people get stuck and you need a pretty built rig, put a gate keeper and only those who can go past can do the trail. 🤷‍♂️

[@UnderTheRadar-cc7we]

You're absolutely the AWD expert you've managed to extremely upgrade its limited capabilities and have countless videos emberassing more capable vehicles lacking your incredible driver mod. Those inexperienced guys getting shown up by a honda awd must have really hurt their ego and I'm here to laugh it up with you 😂 Great video, but Jon with a true 4x4 machine would be the king of all trails it would be unfair for you to have a true 4x4... 🎉

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@UnderTheRadar-cc7we hahaha, this comment is hilarious 😂

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@UnderTheRadar-cc7we my driver mod is no good 🤣

[@sledge7583]

Your Subaru identifies as 4 wheel drive 🚗 🤣 😂😂😂😂😂,

[@LionRunner]

AWD owners will try their best to give excuses. Park services trying to keep People, the machine & environment safe. Try to obey the law and have a 4WD if you want to hit 4WD trails. Experts like Ronny Dahl have good explanation on "4WD vs AWD Off-Road" video.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

But LionRunner, do you truly understand what obeying the law is here? It’s not against the law to drive on a road marked “4WD road” unless the road is specifically mentioned under Closure and Public use limits. For example, your Toyota 4Runner is allowed to drive on a “Jeep Trail”. What’s alarming is how some members of the community, are taking the story, twisting it and are now on this ill informed crusade and witch hunt 🤣. What’s awesome is people are showing their true colors 💩. So honest question, how would you feel if you come across a trail that says “vehicles with 37” tires only” and you just happen to be driving your 4Runner with 40” tires, but a park ranger stops you and says, “you can’t continue because your 4Runner only comes with 32” tires from the factory”. It would be absolutely negligent if I attempted to drive my Stock Honda Passport up the level 3 moderate Imogene Pass in Colorado. It was easy with a lift kit and taller tires. My AWD has the gearing where it wasn’t an issue. I was able to stop and pull over off camber to let oncoming traffic by, and let the speeding SxS pass us. I did ALOT of research before attempting this trail and figured I would NOT be pushing the limits. Now what if you take your 4Runner on the Rubicon trail? It’s going to get stuck, guaranteed. But does having 4WD make it okay? Do you feel anyone attempting the Rubicon trail should be cited and fined for showing up with anything with IFS (independent front suspension)?

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Also, this is just the tip of the iceberg. You speak of the “environment”, heavy vehicles are going to degrade the environment PERIOD. Just keep asking for more restrictions and laws, Utah will be more than happy to close more trails down to vehicle use.

[@LionRunner]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring I understand my 4Runner is not a Jeep. I turn back on a trail I can't do. Even having 33in tires on factory suspension and every damn skid plate. Simple as that. No essays needed. Keep it simple, if you see 4WD high clearance only and if you have AWD, turn back. If you see SxS & dirt bike only turn back if you have 4WD/AWD road legal vehicle.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@LionRunner sounds like we both use good judgement, and I know you’ve been on many trails, so you will be familiar with the “4WD only” signs that were made back long before the first massed produced AWD in the 1980s. I just encountered one of these ancient signs that said “soft sand 4WD only”. We used good judgement and continued on. There’s a lot of “high clearance 4x4 signs around” that might be a level 2 easy or a level 4 moderate, and a stock AWD can start having issues on a level 2 easy trail. Unfortunately, not everyone will have a phone app to check trail difficulties, but that’s my recommendation, and I think that’s one of the best ways to figure out if a certain vehicle and driver can handle the trail in front of them.

[@TheOffroadCamper]

John, just so you know not all jeep wrangler have a locking center diff, some of the models use the exact same transfer case and differential as the grand Cherokee.

[@Noename-qx5rn]

Never knew Jeep offered wranglesrs with a center diff. Must be a very new thing. Every one I've heard of has a transfer case.

[@seanwatson3790]

certified by whooooooooo. 😀 great information though jon, and great clip of me. lol

[@Echo22WC]

Good, f-in rock stackers. Flooring the gas & making ruts, leaving plastic behind. "My subuwu made it"....but did you actually follow leave no trace? .....all the rules? 🤷‍♂️

[@TheOffroadCamper]

TFL JUST ADDRESSED THIS SAME SUBJECT

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@TheOffroadCamper they did a good job with that video!

[@brianmoore4778]

Love to see AWD on the rocks of berdoo canyon.

[@5265060]

All proper 4wd's do have at least one locking differential though. Otherwise its just AWD. All I see are the hondas and subies use speed more than capability. 4wd's crawl up things while AWD's have to use momentum

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@5265060 you’ll be corrected by someone. A low gear transfer case is not a locking differential.

[@5265060]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring right… that’s why I said at least one locking diff… front, rear, or center

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@5265060 part time 4WDs with no rear or front locker are AWDs? Is that what you are saying? Haha

[@5265060]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring no. I'm saying unless you have at least one locker, i.e. a center locking differential, you are AWD.

[@owequitit]

Your opinion is inconsistent with the actual guidance provided by the NPS. And frankly, if you watch his videos, the I-VTM4 system is not using a lot of momentum. More than a fully locked system for sure, but significantly less than a lot of Subarus need. And in their case, it isn’t the AWD system that requires momentum, it is the CVT and lack of gearing which would apply to just about anything.

[@photomaker4502]

I’ve seen plenty of “4wd” vehicles that have gotten stuck out there on the trails. It’s more the driver and his /her confidence and experience level.

[@hidalgoh79]

Subaru should stop giving to the parks system.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@hidalgoh79 there’s going to be upcoming drama for sure!

[@eric-j7r8r]

My GX470 is both AWD and 4WD so I’ll just push a button and we’re good

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@eric-j7r8r 😃 you definitely are! Especially with body on frame construction, a solid rear axle and A-trac

[@mononeo]

My GX 550 isn't AWD it's FULL-TIME 4WD!!!

[@IronmanV5]

I strongly suspect that someone tattled on him. I have noticed in the comments of off-road recovery channels a bit of disdain for Subarus and other AWDs on trails. I wouldn't call this a cash grab as they sent a warning. Plus you have to figure the $5,000 is likely the average cost for a recovery from those trails.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@IronmanV5 I hope those people are that serious about people driving in 2Hi (when they have 4Lo available) and hope they report trash littering (which closes trails down).

[@IronmanV5]

@@JonDZ_Adventuring They mock the former and latter. And pick up the trash to keep the closures from happening as all too often you don't see who left it.

[@RegisteredNurseLA]

Overblown story

[@aceforever001]

It's just one instance buddy, no need for a 12 minute video! 😂

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@aceforever001 100+ messages because the News blew this story up, but if it makes you feel better, I was able to edit this in about 20 minutes, and used instagram stories as video.

[@David-e1b3t]

Nonsense. Let in the 2WD's also. How are these offroad retrieval guys supposed to afford their marijuana, otherwise?

[@David-e1b3t]

And if we're going to seriously go into gate keeping... Let's have a narrow employee door at the PD where fatties can't even get thru. fair is fair

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@David-e1b3t 😂🤣😂

[@brianmoore4778]

If you haven't got it don't try to fake it AWD just don't make it.

[@tribalsean]

Like 100!

[@harrisonmcdowall2794]

If you're overlanding in a National Park, if they even let you go off road, prepare for the red tape. Better to hit some BLM and go on your own adventure.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Well said, so many restrictions in National parks anyways, and Canyon lands doesn’t represent all national parks 🤣. Look at the Canyonlands website and there’s still plenty of trails to drive on, like the Shafer trail. Currently no restrictions at all the other national parks, if they actually have trails. There’s no where to off-road “inside” Yosemite, Sequoia, Yellowstone (there’s one trail to enter from the southwest), Zion etc..

[@SaltShack]

I can’t believe it the Federal Government and the Park Service actually doing something that makes sense. If you AWD Subaru and Toyota Rav 4 ……drivers think that’s unfair, tuff. You have no business on 4WD roads as they may be adequate under many even most circumstances they are not when that thunderstorm blows through and ruts the road or an early or late snow fall strands you and others have to deal with it.

[@mononeo]

Basically, AWD is usually in 2WD and then kicks on AWD only when slippage occurs in 99% of situations. True 4x4s are sending power to the front and the rear AT ALL TIMES when 4WD is engaged. AWD is almost like a 4WD with even more open differentials to get in the way of effectiveness. I don't even like part-time 4WD. My GX 550 and LX 470 both have FULL-TIME 4WD. I have recovery gear in my vehicle to tow out the Subarus and Sprinter vans that get stuck with AWD.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

I appreciate the comment, but a better way to describe is that a low gear transfer case or mechanical center differential lock make the front and rear wheels spin at the same rate, no matter if a wheel is in the air. AWDs vary so much, the way you describe it are earlier systems, like in some late model RAV4, CRV, Nissan Rogue. A Subaru is a mechanically full time AWD system where all 4 wheels are powered all the time, BUT “powered” isn’t equivalent to a Rotational rotation sync. With multi plate clutch pack systems, even if it’s able to achieve sending 50% to the front and 50% to the rear, the terrain and off-road situations will alter that wheel torque appropriation and when wheels get on the air, the system will have its wheel torque exit the path of least resistance. The Honda iVTM4 system (which is different than CRV AWD) has a single speed transfer case that is permanently coupled to the transmission, it always spins. The rear differential called a RDU or rear drive unit has twin clutch packs on the rear (varying high biased LSD with gear reduction). It also acts as a center differential by coupling front to rear. It’s still a multiple plate clutch pack system though. So even though the rear differential is no an open diff, the front differential is, and when really stressed, the path of least resistance are the front wheels.

[@owequitit]

@@JonDZ_Adventuringthis is exactly why Trail Torque Logic on the Pilot Trailsport and the BALLS system have greatly increased the capability. As you say, when a front wheel lifts, all the power goes that way and the ability for the RDU to transfer becomes limited. As soon as you brake that front wheel, the power flow to the RDU increases greatly and the RDU becomes much more effective. You can see the brake based system on the current Ridgeline and Passport working with limited effect, but it is dim-witted and not aggressive enough. A combination of LSD front differential and Honda’s Trail Torque Logic for the situations the LSD couldn’t handle would probably be fantastic. A locking pin system in the RDU would be great too, but I don’t see how they would do that without having to lose the rear overdrive that makes it so fantastic in every other situation. I know you already know this, but I notice that I-VTM4 tends to get “lumped” into the “slip based AWD” system category by people who don’t know. Also, it’s interesting to see some of the stuff people in Asia are doing with CR-V’s. I couldn’t believe it.

[@tomhenderson7972]

It's not your rig that can handle a level 4 trail. It's you that you handle a level 4 in your rig.

[@killamilla1212]

I mean all 4 wheels spin don't they

[@pennmikael]

“how many wheels do we have” bluey

[@mr_mcgoo2632]

Traction control does not give you traction , it takes traction away. It is slip control. Traction control applies the brakes to spinning wheels and will reduce power from the engine. Not all AWD systems are the same. Toyota's LIMITED models are AWD and not 4WD.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

Most people call it brake vectoring now a days, but I’m a little old school and will call it traction control at times.

[@ryanroland6426]

Toyotas limited models are 4wd, full time 4wd, essentially awd until you lock the center diff which is 4high and then further more you can activate the transfer case and put it in 4 low with or without the center locker locked in

[@5265060]

@@ryanroland6426good luck explaining that to @jondz_adventuring