The National Park Service Threatens to FINE You If You Drive THESE Cars Off-Road!

[@kirklins8411]

Maybe they need to create a large mound of dirt/rocks at the beginning of the trail with a sign. "If you can't make it over this your vehicle is not qualified to go any further."

[@brohammer]

Agree. Just make gatekeeper type obstacles

[@larzlarz1140]

@@kirklins8411 many trails already have gatekeepers. If you can get through the gatekeeper and you’re undaunted, then have at it.

[@deserttrailscout]

GATEKEEPERS

[@brandonwebb4221]

Some trails have a boulder speed pump blocking the trail entrance

[@JAT922]

Kind of like the amusement park rides that say you need to be xx” tall to go on the ride

[@terryclarence1209]

Hilarious that the Park Service vehicle is an AWD Ford Explorer with low ground clearance

[@Jmg831]

They don’t go on those trails or do they? 🤔🤣

[@matthewmenteer5673]

I was in the BLM near canyon lands with a FWD car... I also used to scramble over rocks on trails that have taken out people's diffs and oil pans on 1500 trucks at one of my jobs. But yeah I never thought it would be good to do moab trails. I think ground clearance sucks on everything unless you modified it. 6~8" on nearly everything made other than Raptors and similar trucks.

[@PTRRanger951]

Difference is they know where they are going and what they can make it over and where. They are not the weekend warrior that goes out just for a hike. I had a FPIU AWD as a deputy in Nevada. We would take them everywhere in a 3,500 sq mile rural county, even going to people that got stuck. But we knew the trails and roads and where to stay out of when we had to.

[@middleburg11]

Because they are truly Hypocrites the police😮

[@doubleslit9513]

@@middleburg11Correct.

[@rafterwhomestead]

If you have to ask yourself the question: "is my vehicle considered a high clearance 4x4" ...it probably isn't.

[@jake-ly]

I'm only asking cause my truck has 4 motors. By their definition this excludes the Hummer EV and quad motor Rivians which are super capable but don't fall into tradition 4x4 classification

[@rafterwhomestead]

@@jake-ly for sure, any definition that gets cited in these comments would precede the recent production of multi motor EV's. I doubt a ranger with the FS would send a similar write up to someone driving a Hummer EV or Rivian. Time will tell on where rules will fall on some of these, like the hummer and cybertruck because of what they weigh. I could see weight restriction on some of these trails in the future.

[@MistakenMedia]

I see minivans on top of mountains in Utah, these people either don't care or are just fuc**** stupid.

[@TomMorison-my7vd]

I have a Land Rover LR4 but it doesn't have the HD package. No low range, and no locking diffs (uses a center torsion diff). And I definitely wouldn't bring it there.

[@Ww8.3]

⁠@@jake-lythe hummer ev weighs as much as a loaded semi 😂 if you need to be towed out you deserve massive fines for the giant wrecker it will take.

[@nelsonvanvickle8862]

I didn’t buy my Outback XT for climbing steep, rocky trails in Moab. I bought it to track confidently on snowy roads in Maryland winters and get me through muddy sections of back country roads after the snow melts. People forget what a “purpose built” vehicle constitutes and what a true 4x4 system with lockers is designed for as opposed to an AWD system.

[@huh4233]

Exactly. I run a Suzuki SX-4 AWD that is set-up with a 3 inch lift and larger tires. I live in Colorado and would not run this on a "Jeep" trail. But a dirt All Weather Road in a blizzard, NO PROBLEM.

[@magicjnkie216]

Exactly the right vehicle for the road & conditions you need it for. Off-road trails are for pourpose built vehicles.

[@theamazinggoldfish8713]

Yeah but now that you're in Florida you can at least pull out of an bog.....😂👍

[@markweaver1012]

There are a variety of trail difficulties in Moab, and we've done the mild / moderate ones in an Outback (e.g. Hurrah Pass / Chicken Corners, Gemini Bridges, Onion Creek, etc). Thankfully, the NPS wasn't in charge and couldn't tell use where we couldn't go. We've also ignored the 'real 4wd not AWD!!' signs in Vermillion Cliffs and had a great time with no problems. AT tires, skid plate, aired down -- it worked great despite some seriously sloppy mud sections. We don't go into the national parks much though, because we can't bring he dog (another problem with the Karens in the NPS).

[@pretol7920]

Nobody said anything about lockers... an old school 4x4 without any lockers might be much less capable than some modern AWD that can do a shitty simulation of lockers...

[@ksucats97]

According to the National Park Service, a high clearance vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15” tire rims or more, with a low gear transfer case, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8” of clearance or more from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground, also including means of mechanically powering both front and rear wheels at the same time.

[@fscottgray9784]

This spells it out pretty clear. If you don't have this don't use the trails marked as such.

[@tfcooks]

Good info, thanks.

[@BillyBobTup]

15" tire rims or more? That is odd, many street cars have larger than 15" wheels. Most AWD cars do. I'm surprised they don't specify tire size minimum. What does "MECHANICALLY powering both front and rear wheels at the same time." mean? Honda Ridgelines and Pilots transfer power to the front and rear wheels at the same time, but does that qualify as mechanical?

[@gregkelly2145]

Where do they say this and do they do post this at the restricted sites?

[@dillonh321]

Yes that would be mechanical but it doesn’t matter because they don’t have a high/low transfer case so the car does not qualify.

[@jimblair6458]

How about a sign that says, "if you get stuck, it's your ass!"

[@StanlyTPT]

yes, but now you're defying statism aka satan

[@fun0537]

It's not the getting stuck, watch any video of AWDs 'offroad' takes a lot of wheel spin which damages the trails.

[@BerkJackson]

@@fun0537 That would be part of "it's your ass!" the person would be responsible for their actions. being responsible means covering any cost of recovery and repairing any damage to the trail that they did. too many nanny laws these days. personal responsibility needs to make a come back.

[@sock979]

They should I've gone down a trail that's said if you need help it may not come and you may be responsible for costs of rescue and in AZ we have a stupid driver law like if you drive into water and get stuck they can bill you for the rescue but that still doesn't help the people who are then stuck behind the person no blocking the trail cuz they can't make it and shouldn't have been there.

[@erich5265]

Utah has those. But why they dont have more tow trucks? Matt's seems to do everything.

[@michaelsielian235]

Dumping motor and gear oil or antifreeze all over the countryside after ripping the bottom of your unprotected undercarriage with a big rock isn’t cool for the environment.

[@Queensizemusic]

Amen

[@OtisFlint]

Ok, so fine people when that happens instead of this BS.

[@michaelsielian235]

There’s the environmental impact of spills and excessive trail damage from ill equipped vehicles and the safety factor for drivers that take these vehicles into terrain they aren’t engineered to survive which speaks to the driver’s skills when making that decision. I wouldn’t take a beginner skier down a black diamond trail. They cold hurt themselves or others. Published fines may offer a deterrent where a simple “don’t be stupid” sign won’t.

[@Zanderthelab]

I agree, but that’s only if it happens.

[@951media]

@@michaelsielian235that’s a dramatic hypothetical

[@mikeolbrisch4722]

Texas big bend in early may. 10am, temperature was already 107° and rising. We were traveling a the River Road East to West, following the Rio Grande parallel to the Mexican Border. We were in a very well-built JEEP 4-Door wrangler. I'm a retired soldier and experienced off-road from small M-151s to hummers to cargo trucks to medium tracked vehicles. The JEEP A/C was working well. We always carry an extra 10-gallon fuel pod on the rear tire carrier and an emergency 5-gallons of water in a tank built into the rear bumper. For me, I only used 4X4-high on this road for the increased traction affording less damage to the terrain. On 12.5 x 35 tires at 14-PSI - 2X4 would have worked 90% of the time. The high clearance and deep sand were the only issues. I do not recall needing the F and R lockers at all. There are HUGE 4' x 8' signs at every point where the pavement ends stating HIGH-CLEARANCE 4X4 ONLY. This is very desolate terrain and forget about cell phones. About 10 miles in we discovered a black Pontiac Solstice with NY license plates. The vehicle had two flat tires from spinning the wheels trying to get unstuck. Inside we discovered a woman, delirious from dehydration. Fortunately, the ham radio VHF was able to get over the mountains to another operator about 60 miles away. He called the rangers on the phone and they dispatched an emergency crew to the Lat/Lon location I provided. It took them nearly 2 hours to get there. Having plenty of water, we kept this woman in the back seat of our rig to cool her and let her slowly drink water.... and when the ranger crew arrived we handed her off and let them deal with the situation. Once they saved her life, I hope they impounded her vehicle and fined the shit out of her. Another Darwin near-miss. This is a prime example of what the park service is talking about. This woman had gotten stuck about noon the day before, she was nearly gone. 22 hours in the West Texas desert with little water and no food. Had we not come across her I feel certain she would have died that day, becoming another page in the book named Death In Big Bend. Yes, that is a real book, and interesting reading of you visit West Texas in the summer.... as an example of things not to do. I don't know what the selection criteria should be for deciding what vehicles on what trails. But I see the need. To be clear, my 2015 JKU-R Hard Rock rates a Hard-7. But my butt-hole is only rated for a Moderate-5. That keeps me out of trouble, I long ago quit wondering if I could "make it over there"?

[@johngaudet6316]

She would have easily died out there for sure.

[@toyyoda3710]

Story sounds made up.

[@melissanerone9782]

This is exactly why the park service does its best to make and enforce its regulations. I am a SAR member in Moab, UT with 2 national parks in my backyard. People come here on vacation and sometimes never make it home. It kinda sucks for us responders, too. Thank you so much for saving that woman.

[@arkos55]

Agree with everything in this comment except where it says “well built Jeep” which surely is an oxymoron.

[@thetechlibrarian]

i wonder what she was thinking in a 2 seat convertible

[@21psd]

Regardless of 4WD or AWD, the biggest reason people tend to get stuck is because they don't understand how these systems work. This is especially true for the Traction Control systems in modern vehicles, and that by momentarily turning off Traction Control, it will allow most vehicle to be driven out of a stuck situation.

[@adamrichardson2227]

And tires, especially in Moab. If you watch Matt's off road recovery, you know a noob on the sand by the fully inflated tires to on road pressures

[@jamesocker5235]

Spot on

[@norsefalconer]

Knowledge and experince are the best pieces of equipment.

[@jamesocker5235]

@ a little practice before difficult operations goes a long way to properly using all machines. Many people today use technology with 0 understanding of its capabilities and limitations. Sadly our education systems perpetuate the “lack of understanding is ok theory” sad really. I,ve been in different tech and industries for over 40 years and have watched understanding fade from teaching even the basics of simple machines.

[@edwardnelson3413]

As someone who drives a Subaru, this warning must be inforced given Subaru's market share with first time outdoors adventure vehicle owners don't understand the difference between AWD vs 4x4. I would never take my Subaru down anything other than a forest road. Just because you have a "wilderness" badge on the side of your Subaru doesn't mean it can do what a Jeep Wrangler can go.

[@Awol991]

A 4x4 Jeep without lockers is just an AWD. The difference needs to be the presence of lockers on all 4 wheels or not.

[@vwsubisquare3677]

I have a Outback Wilderness with Rival4x4 1/4 skid plates and we have had it on 4/10 trails with no issues. These cars are very capable with a decent driver. My Dodge Caravan could do "forest roads" so no need to waste my time on one with the Outback. I have these same ground clearance as the RTD 4runner. Plus of all the 4wds I have ever had, I have never used 4lo.

[@dougjones9698]

​@@Awol991modern Jeeps don't need lockers, the traction control system will stop a wheel from spinning if it loses traction, causing that torque to go to the other wheel

[@Awol991]

@@dougjones9698 The Subaru AWD vehicles that are some of the vehicles targeted by this have a similar traction control system to shift the torque. You just made my point, thanks.

[@dougjones9698]

@@Awol991 as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, they are different. The Subarus use some witchcraft to transfer torque through all four wheels. Clearly not an automotive engineer here. My 2006 Jeep Liberty apparently has open diffs. As I understand open differentials if a wheel loses traction it will just spin and the other wheel does nothing, but in my system the traction control would apply that brake and make the other wheel turn. It seems to me the locking differential is unneeded if the system works, but I admit not being experienced at off roading. Please tell me if and how I'm wrong.

[@sokratzmmf]

Many parks have very strict guidance for off-road driving. They don't want to be busy rescuing people for being poorly prepared.

[@billredding2000]

My off-road truck (yes, a real 4x4) is better prepared than I'll probably ever be...I hope that's enough to qualify. ;-)

[@sixpest]

They tear up the track when they get stuck for no reason and dig massive holes

[@Beethechange1]

True the lazy azz 👮🏻 only want to rescue overly prepared divers.. It’s ok if they screw up

[@MathewPollard-vj4uq]

They are trying to reduce off-road access to a smaller and smaller group by intimidation/discouragement so that when they ban it there will be fewer people affected to object to the closures. They have removed the 4x4 trails from the park maps for the same reason.

[@Singlesix6]

Cape Hatteras National Seashore has a statement on their site that rangers will NOT help you get unstuck - no pushing, pulling, digging, towing, nothing. They have the phone number for the private towing service. Bring lots of money.

[@gamergeek8933]

I like the idea I saw from another offroad account. If it is 4wd only, put in a gate keeper. You cant pass the gate keeper, you don’t belong on the trail. Easy as that.

[@nickknack5884]

What is a "gate keeper"?

[@AndrewAMartin]

@@nickknack5884 A gatekeeper is an obstacle that would prevent vehicles without a minimum level of capability from entering the trail.

[@Psyco913]

​@@nickknack5884A gatekeeper is a man made obstacle at the start of a trail that mimics the most difficult part of the main trail. The idea being if you can get through the gatekeeper you can get through the trail, and more importantly if you can't get through the gatekeeper you should not attempt the trail.

[@OdyTypeR]

💯 this is good trail design. Put in an uphill bolder path or a ledge obstacle that indicates: A) This is the start of "the trail" and B) Your day will go a lot smoother if you have F&R diff locks to go with your 35's. With enough room for tow vehicles to park nearby, and for Subaru owners to park and unload their mountain bikes.😉👍

[@antontsau]

@@OdyTypeR and big ad board from local offroad tow truck service!

[@quixomega]

Some brands make this even more confusing by labeling AWD cars 4WD.

[@damilolaakanni]

Toyota did that throughout the 90's, and even until the 2012 RAV4.

[@IronmanV5]

Cough, cough Bronco Sport cough, cough

[@jeremymerrix6236]

So your escalated with awd is not allowed 😂

[@jg8263]

Several models of jeep crossovers have 4x4 labels on their awd systems.

[@Jay-me7gw]

@@damilolaakanniThe RAV4 had the ability to lock up the rear tires with the front via a switch on the dash. Basically manual override of the automatic awd system. I remember driving a few and there was a 4x4 Lock button or something like that.

[@nonde.script]

“What are you in for?” “Took the crosstrek off road” 💀

[@adreaux]

Ford calls the Bronco Sport a 4x4 and “4 wheel drive” vehicle all over in its marketing and manual, despite being technically a AWD. That being said, the badlands has the rear locking differential, and it’s defiantly marketed to go off road. I can see why people would be confused and this rule isn’t clearly defined.

[@Jay-me7gw]

Can the Bronco Sport not lock into 4wd via clutches? If the clutches are the problem then you need to exclude virtually every half ton truck or full size SUV made in the last 10 years since they are all using clutch based full-time transfer cases that lock up the clutches when you put them in 4x4hi or lo

[@larzlarz1140]

@@Jay-me7gw the rules says that the front and rear wheels have to be “mechanically driven”, ie gears in a transfer case. Clutches are viscously coupled. That is what differentiates 4wd from awd, by the NPS rules. But it also says 4wd with low range.

[@Cloud30000]

We just need a new term that both 4WD transfer cases and a locked center diff qualify as, like “locking axles”; then, if you can demonstrate that the electric motors can be locked without slip between the “axles”, it would also qualify without needing to meet outdated criteria that misses the intent of the rule\phrase.

[@IslandAdventures]

Jeep wranglers are on of the only true 4x4 left, solid axles and physically locking 4x4 where the bronco and other picks have electronic 4x4s and the computer decides if you get to stay in it or not, with the jeep, you put it in 4x4 and its not coming out unless you take it out.

[@buckhorncortez]

No, the definition of a 4-wheel drive vehicle is clearly defined. Your ignorance of the definition doesn't mean it's confusing. Here you go - direct from the National Park Service website: DEFINITION A four wheel drive vehicle is defined as a sport utility vehicle (SUV) or truck with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a transfer case between the front and rear axles that locks the front and rear drive shafts together when four wheel drive is engaged. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition.

[@Lunentucker]

What if your AWD identifies as a 4WD? Checkmate, government.

[@desert4seat]

Trust the science

[@krashnpa]

This is going to be held up in the court system for years. For now, better to stick with a JT in 4wd.

[@USSRDragon]

I mean there are odd ball SUVs like that, but they’re certainly not from this country. 90’s Prado is AWD, but has a central Tcase for 4X4HI/Lo. Since Im going to drive in some state parks we’ll see how this argument goes if the park service comes over to chat.

[@GTIFabric]

My Prius identifies as a mountain goat

[@USSRDragon]

@@GTIFabric i mean when I lived in CO, I definitely saw a couple Prius’ on 4WD trails in Como. Still wondering how they got those things up there when there were multiple wheel deep water crossings.

[@SenhorSus]

I drove a stock Crosstrek up the trail to Loch Lomond a bunch of years ago...and it made it up there! But the car did NOT like the ride up and I count myself lucky nothing happened. I would never make the trip again. This law would prevent dummies like me from making this mistake and causing a whole mess on a very narrow trail, ruining both my day and everyone else's. Im all for it! Mandatory equipment should be off-road tires that can withstand punctures well and are above a certain minimum profile/thickness, minimum ground clearance, and a low range box. But what do i know, im just a dummy taking subarus where they should never go 😅

[@mtnbound2764]

at least you can acknowledge your ignorance!

[@user-hf8ie8mf3n]

We’ve all made mistakes, and sometimes we even learn from them. 👍🤪🏳️‍🌈

[@theamazinggoldfish8713]

SSSSOOOooo, no to my manual Impreza...😂

[@PTRRanger951]

Good. They should. Having worked law enforcement in a large rural county in Nevada, 90% of our search and rescue calls were involving people stuck in cars. They think AWD is 4x4. When we have 1 or two deputies on duty per shift in a 3,500 sq mile county and we have to drive off road for an hour or longer to get somewhere, it takes us away from being able to respond to an actual emergency. If something was to happen more serious, we would have to call someone from their house, or try to respond and may have to take and hour or 2 of dirt roads just to get back to pavement. These people would think that they could drive anywhere in their AWD car. Their decision to issue fines stems from having to waste resource after resource for something that should have never happened. Tow companies won’t even respond until law enforcement gets there first so they know it’s an actual stuck vehicle and they know where the location is and it’s verified. National Parks and Forest Service don’t have a ton of resources to send to a stuck vehicle either.

[@pretol7920]

You don't have definition of 4x4. This is the problem with "common sense" when extreme cases don't fit definitions. A 2wd on big tires would make a better ofroader than a "4x4" work truck. Honda Element is technically a 4WD (unless your definition includes low range transfer case), and that's the problem is that there's no true definition to these terms, other than "just look at it", or it has to be "old skool"...

[@PTRRanger951]

⁠@@pretol7920issue is when it comes to a 2nd on big tires, once one tire of the vehicle comes off the ground you are screwed. I have been on many back roads where I just had one front tire on the ground and the opposite rear tire on the ground. Majority of 2wd vehicles only have one wheel that gets power. You get high centered or in a rut, that single tire is not going anything. 4x4 is just that, 4WD that delivers power to all four tires. Most AWD vehicles do not deliver the same power to all tires, it’s distributed as needed as a computer sees fit. It can kick in when it needs to or not sense when it needs to. A Honda Element is 4x4 when it’s a 4x4. The reason for the restriction is because people LACK the common needed to say “hey vehicle is not a 4x4, it’s AWD and that is not the same. I am not going to chance it.” Instead they say “hey it’s AWD that means I can go anywhere a Jeep can go and more. No way I can get stuck. And my GPS says I need to go this way.” I have had to deal with SEMI TRACTOR TRAILERS going 15 miles down a dirt two track and starting into a narrow canyon where a jeep with an 8 foot trailer would have trouble making a corner. Instead they keep driving until they hit the sides of the trailer on the canyon walls. Or another one that went down a dirt road on a road that is obviously not traveled and into the desert to bury every axel to the hubs in soft sand. All because their GPS said to take the road. Had to work a search and rescue and ultimately a death where a couple took an RV towing a car about 25 miles up a dirty two track. No cell service, nothing. Road was so bad it broke a wheel off the RV. And they kept driving. About half a min they should have stopped and said this is not right. Instead it cost the husband his life and the wife had to be hoisted out by helicopter. Another half a day and she would have been dead too. Most places have “high clearance vehicles only signs”. That means one thing and 4x4 means another. 4x4 only could mean things like the road is too sandy, too inclined, too much gravel on an incline or anything else where you need more than one wheel giving you power.

[@duggydo]

If you use the low range test, then a lot of GM pickups won't pass. They have been cheaping out and putting transfer cases without low range for a while.

[@volvo09]

Really? Even in full sized trucks and SUV's? If so, that's horribly cheap, but I can believe it coming from GM.

[@maximeparent3004]

Literally every GM trucks i've been in had a low range, from a 93 S-10 to a 2024 Silverado.

[@JustinG9698]

@@maximeparent3004I don’t know if it’s still a thing but I remember a few years ago the low range was an option on the gm pickups. You got it standard on higher trim but not on a lower level 4wd.

[@maximeparent3004]

@@JustinG9698 yes the 2 speed transfer case is an option, but available on any trim level, and it usually comes with a locking rear differential and some skid plates. Almost every trucks on the lot gets ordered with them. I have a base Silverado with cloth seats, not even a Z/71 or trail boss, and it came with the off-road package.

[@Jay-me7gw]

So don’t buy a GM pickup. That right there, along with the lack of a fuel tank greater than 24 gallons, is 100% when I would never touch a current GM 1500.

[@letour32rr]

Per the NPS Website: "A high clearance 4WD vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15 inch tire rims or more, with a low gear transfer case, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8 inches of clearance or more from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground, also including a means to mechanically power both, front and real wheels at the same time." So by this definition, The only Crossover that would fit this would be a Cherokee Trailhawk. Guess next time I go to Moab, I can't take my Jeep Patriot, dang.

[@PleiadesPower]

The Subaru has 17" wheels and over 8" of ground clearance on the Wilderness trim. Check mate!

[@JDS-Dalton]

​@@PleiadesPowerall subaru crossovers have at least 8.7 inches of clearance lol

[@PleiadesPower]

Depends on what year and model Subaru you are referencing. There was a time that not all were offered that are still driven today came with that minimum clearance.... BTW, I bought my first new Subaru in 1984 and still own it. A GL Brat. And I do not consider a serious off-roader, but it is a very fun vehicle to cruise around in and take to car shows and meets. In factory form it does not reach that 8.7" threshold. But it does exceed the 8" clearance I mentioned coming in at 8.1". My 1996 Outback came in at 7.6" ground clearance was a family hauler/commuter which I traded in when I later bought my 2005 Baja that had 8.4" g.c.. Only my 2024 Outback Wilderness is the leader in this category at 9.5" g.c. and is a champ when traversing off-road so far..

[@JDS-Dalton]

@PleiadesPower I was referring to the modern crossovers since you mentioned the wilderness specifically. All modern subaru crossovers have at least 8.7 inches of clearance, with the wilderness trims having between 9.2 and 9.5 depending on which one.

[@PleiadesPower]

@@JDS-Dalton Fair enough. Since I own and wrench on multi-generations of Subarus that I own, I take them all into account... Enjoy your off-road adventures!

[@driftlesstrekker4709]

The "collateral forfeiture" and $5,000.00 fine tell you everything you need to know about this. It's not about safety, it's a money grab.

[@RB01138]

No it is not. The reason for the collateral forfeiture is because there are probably limits on regular monetary fines and some people won't be discouraged by anything less than their car being seized.

[@driftlesstrekker4709]

@@RB01138 so it's appropriate for the government to take your $50,000.00 vehicle for driving on a road that some beaureacrat decided it shouldn't be on?

[@MatthewC137]

@@driftlesstrekker4709 Definitely a money grab. They're hunting money and it's going to get much worse based on the current condition of USA, Inc.'s balance sheet.

[@EB-ss3or]

If trails are to be restricted, that should be based on actual capabilty, NOT nomenclature. The term "AWD" entered the mainstream U.S. vernacular roughly four decades ago with the increading popularity of full-time four wheel drive SUVs that weren't derived from pickup trucks.

[@JeepinAround-ut4hf]

I think one thing missed in this video is why they would want to ban awd vehicles? Short answer to protect the park and trail. We dont want cars bottoming out leaking fluids or parts all over and leaving the trails more destroyed. Its a privledge we get to off road on these amazing trails in National Parks.

[@edwardcorrado2541]

Some of the AWD have much higher ground clearance and thus less likely to leak then many of the 4WD sold today.

[@JeepinAround-ut4hf]

@@edwardcorrado2541 Do they have 4 low for more control?

[@Queensizemusic]

Amen

[@Jb-uy5zx]

Thank god government is here to give us privileges.

[@induction7895]

@@Jb-uy5zx Yes. Thanks to government establishing and protecting these national parks, else corporations, private entities and rich billionaires would have bought and kept it off limit for common folks. See how Niagara Falls was like before it was (with a lot of difficulties) converted to state park. It's indeed a privilege. Rich propaganda has brainwashed common folks that the government that they can elect democratically is somehow worse than corporations.

[@rockinfaceplant0000]

You gave us literally every bit of plot important information needed in the first 30 seconds 😂😂

[@MrFordguy73]

The old timey "high clearance vehicles only" was from a time when people had common sense. Now we're in a time where people are lacking common sense and boisterous with their attitude, thinking that their $70,000 vehicle should be able to go anywhere, when it's really just designed for slippery obstacles. This basically it's just meant to enforce the common sense side of people not going places they shouldn't be with the vehicle that they have in order to keep them safe.

[@Yugemos]

Meanwhile some guy with a hodge podge farmer welded pile of shit can go in there and get stuck any day of the week... Makes no sense.

[@JogBird]

its so they can get likes

[@JoshuaAlbretsen-bf3di]

​@@sktonathere are some old Subaru in Australia that have low range you know.

[@Tom-my8fd]

Common sense is not common.

[@405FlyGuy]

Just let Darwinism rule…why over-regulate to keep stupid people from themselves? Isn’t this mother-natures way of self-regulating or “weeding out the weak” or the dumbasses?

[@melissanerone9782]

Hey Roman, Melissa here, your favorite BLM film monitor in Moab. We just did the Medano Pass in Great Sand dunes national Park. They actually have a page that makes a good attempt to describe the difference between 4WD and AWD. It may not be 100% accurate, but we had not seen this kind of information before on a park service page. Anyway, check it out and it might be some additional food for thought. Hugs to Tommy!

[@brucel399]

I remember a guy who made it from the Dunes side all the way up to the first water crossing in a Audi sedan with Quattro AWD. I was actually impressed. He had aired down his tires to about 15psi. He turned around at the crossing by the old cabins, and went back. All of us in 4x4s were a bit pissed, yet impressed at the same time. CHEERS from Colorado

[@oni-one574]

Fine by me. It's kind of cringe watching the AWD vehicles spin, drag, and destroy their way up trails when the other 4x4 vehicles (low range transfer case vehicles) just walk over them. They should roll out an official rule set though so there is no confusion. 4x4 with low range transfer case needs to be clearly defined and clearly displayed.

[@larzlarz1140]

@@oni-one574 it is clearly defined and displayed.

[@Uberragen21]

Ehh, my AWD VW Tiguan with the 8 spd auto has a much lower than normal 1st gear. It's 5.6:1. To put that into perspective, the 5th Gen 4Runner transfer case's low range gear reduction is 2.5:1 with a 1st gear 3.5:1. That puts low gear at 8.75:1 crawl ratio. That's not much different than my Tiguan in 1st gear. The key difference is, the 4Runner locks the front and rear axles when the transfer case is engaged. That's a HUGE advantage over most AWD vehicles. That's the bigger reason why most AWD vehicles should stick to loose gravel. I will admit I've done some off-road adventures in my Tiguan, but I always know my limit.

[@Cloud30000]

No rules on the trails; a quick pit maneuver will clear the way from anyone going too slow. Always cover your plates before you hit the trail, makes it near impossible to catch you if there is no cell service to call it in.

[@larzlarz1140]

@@Uberragen21 quick Google search shows a crawl ratio of 33.7:1 for v6 and v8 fifth gen 4Runners and 41.3:1 crawl ratio for 4 cylinder 4Runners. That compares to a crawl ratio of 18.6 on the Tiguan or 100:1 in a Jeep wrangler rubicon. A Tiguan would need a 10.12:1 first gear to have the same crawl ratio as the v6 4Runner.

[@gregoryshearsmith6774]

you are part of the problem. Let the stupid suffer the consequences, but do STOP with the b.s "laws" that only serve the government !

[@geezerpleasers_OG]

Very interesting discussion. As a Certified Old Person, who has gone from my trusty old Cherokee to a Renegade Trailhawk (with Falken Wildpeaks, and a full set of 4 traction boards, a full size spare, etc.), I don't fool myself into thinking that my Renegade can do what my old Cherokee could do, or what my cousin's old Wrangler could do when she was brave enough to let me borrow it. An early clue was finding out that the system would shriek at me if I even aired down below 24 psi. But it's awesome for reasonable forest roads or sandy desert roads. If the NPS says that a particular trail is off limits for me and my Renegade, I listen to them.

[@Cloud30000]

The difference between an all wheel drive and a 4 wheel drive is a locking transfer case instead of a (limited slip on-locking) center differential. A vehicle with a center differential that DOES NOT lock up is NOT a 4 wheel drive, even if it has a low\granny gear to increase torque.

[@Yugemos]

Alternatively, a shitbox that's guaranteed to throw a drive shaft at the first rock is also not a 4x4 truck.

[@Cloud30000]

@@Yugemostechnically, it’s 4x4 up until it throws the driveshaft, then it’s a 0x4.

[@PeDro-cy3gd]

Hello all! I think that topic is mutch bigger. I drove multiple types of cars in my life. I also did some trial driving in Germany. Now, I'm not an expert but from my experience you can manage to drive over obstacles in different ways depending on your car. Of course you need to know your boundaries. I also like to watch others drive in real world but also on YT and there you can see a lot of people who rent a Jeep an get stuck easily because they have no idea of reading the trail or how to switch to low gear or even switch off-road modes. There are also people who now exactly how to drive a AWD in very rough terrain. Another important point is the whether condition. You could start driving a dry an unspectacular dirt road and if it starts to rain the road gets extremely slippery. That will overwhelm your ESP. It also makes a big difference what gear you carry with you. If I go offroad with my lifted Forester with all terrain tires I also have recover boards and other stuff with me. In the past I also got stuck with a 4x4 (no lockers). Do not underestimate electronic lockers. For some situations the will work perfectly. I drove some roads in the French Alps, rated as 4 of 5 and there was finally only one difficult part. We build a ramp with some rocks and that was it. So road rating sometimes very pessimistic. 😂

[@fordmud]

Because we're tired of saving your ass when you get stuck or wreck your vehicle, especially the rentals.

[@beyondthispoint5557]

I have never understood why the USA is so jail happy. Weird. A fine I get, but jail?

[@Randyrancor]

Because it’s a misdemeanor it carries a “possible” jail sentence but it never happens for cases like these

[@dmacarthur5356]

The problem is that this isn't a law, it is a Park Superintendent Compendium. It's treated as a law because it carries fines and jail time under 36 CFR, however the Superintendent can arbitrarily change the definitions and regulations without legislative oversight. This is the same way, say the ATF can say something is legal one day then the next day it's illegal without the legislative body voting on it as a law. Congress undermined their own Constitutional authority and duty when they gave these government agency heads legislative authority.

[@jjc4577]

we'll lock you up for taking a Honda CRV up a category 4 road, but you can steal all you want, as long as it doesn't go over a thousand dollars. This is the United States of Clown World.

[@jaypikachu6660]

No people will fellow the rules if there are no Penalty.

[@ShaneTerry-o8c]

The US government benefits from people being in jail because they can pay them 20 cents an hour to do factory work

[@IronmanV5]

I can't help but think that this has something to do with that doofus a couple of months back who drove off into a "No Motorized Vehicles" area in Death Valley. He got stuck and pulled down and old tower extricating himself.

[@RandallW20]

Exactly my thoughts too. Some Jack@$$ has to ruin it for everyone…

[@Cloud30000]

But my freedom…

[@cr1001farm]

So, I am an American but only returned to the USA in 2022. It would seem to me the Supreme Court throwing out the Chevron agreement would mean that the Park Service could NOT issue such rulings based upon the vehicle driven. As I understand it, they can say, NOBODY can drive their vehicles here or anyone can. They cannot make judgments on which vehicles. Am I misunderstanding?

[@MathewPollard-vj4uq]

You mis-understand the overturning of the Chevron rule. It doesn't say that Agencies can't make rules. It says that Agency's rulings as to what a law means do not have to be taken as the equivalent of the legislative law by the courts. They can still make regulatory rules using their best judgement, but now courts do not have to accept those judgements without consideration of counter arguments.

[@dcmtrader]

Not that I disagree but this is to arbitrary. They need a standard, ground clearance, transfer case. 4x4 vs AWD is a huge grey area now. Without that were left with the same old problem of cops having all the power, form jail to a warning based on their opinion or mood. Power without rules will lead to government overreach and with fines involved a huge motivation to punish people motivated by $$.

[@multivisao]

4x4 vs AWD is actually not a grey area at all!

[@volvo09]

It's not the vehicle, it's the operator... They should just post a notice saying if you need emergency help by taking a "crossover" up the trail the cost will be on you. I'm sure this didn't come from no where, the off road marketing on crossovers works and people get stuck and are unprepared and assume help is always a call away.

[@directorjustin]

Police working with increasingly loose rules inevitably leads to more prejudice.

[@user-tb7rn1il3q]

You need BOF, part time or center mechanical lock 4x4, and low range. Subaru has none of these.

[@Cloud30000]

I think it’s easy; if your wheels spin, you are damaging the trail and thus you get fined. If you need a rescue, you get fined AND you pay all related expenses. If you can make it up the trail and back with no wheel spin in a Camaro with racing slicks, more power to you; if not, you pay the price in $$$ and in pride.

[@Randyrancor]

Slight correction. This (from the CFR) is not “legislation,” but rather a “regulation” or “rule” created by an administrative agency.

[@multivisao]

“Further the beaten path” is not meant to go in a trail that requires Low range… The Honda “Trail blah blah blah” is also a LIFESTYLE vehicle….

[@michaelswick4251]

4/10 doesn’t require low range

[@Kahless00]

A wrangler is a lifestyle vehicle. It's just a different lifestyle. That's a stupid name.

[@JF-lt5zc]

Rented a Passport "HPD" a few years ago. What a joke. It was the worst nanny car I've ever driven. All I did was drive it around town for a week and I swore off Honda for ever.

[@EB-ss3or]

As mentioned in this video, part-time 4WD systems typically have low-range gearing that AWD vehicles usually lack. But many modern transmissions have extremely low (>4:1) gearing in both 1st gear & reverse, which results in close to the same overall gear reduction as an older pickup truck in 1st gear with low range selected in the T-Case.

[@gerrygadget]

It's the "No Subarus" rule. Maybe Subaru will consider making true 4WD now.

[@intox69]

Subarus AWD is better than my old trucks 4wd aka 2wd... lol

[@br9760]

New vs old, so duh. Subaru should have added dual range and a rear locker a LONG time ago. Big waste of the platform. ​@intox69

[@intox69]

@@br9760 Sure, I still don't see why banning them from trails is justified.

[@Malc664]

@@intox69 Maybe they're a burden on resources like Rangers, and all emergency services.

[@intox69]

@@Malc664 Maybe? or they are? Are some trucks also banned given what I said above?

[@paul_t_kendall]

Here come that Honda ridgeline guys to tell us about their TRUCK😂

[@JF-lt5zc]

I can't stand those things. The new ones look nicer, but are still an Odyssey underneath. The first gen were a hard choice in most ugly 'truck' ever, tied with the Avalanche.

[@donaldwilson2620]

​@@JF-lt5zc Or Cybertruck. That thing is ugly.

[@JF-lt5zc]

@@donaldwilson2620 Garbage dumpster.

[@Toolingabout]

Nah, Ridgeline guys just go about their business with their reliable vehicle. It’s yall little insecure fellas that are the ones running your mouth and can’t pass up a chance to talk about ridgelines and cybertrucks that live rent free in your head.

[@WhiteSubie]

Nah I had one and it was sad AF. Even my Subie has better ground clearance lol.

[@barryraven4745]

Nothing like following a Subaru at snail speeds that won’t pull over and let you pass.

[@volvo09]

I'm sure quite a few families and campers have gone out on a day or night trip and got stuck requiring emergency help. (911 - we are stuck in our Crosstrek and have 2 kids with us, night is coming and AAA won't help!)

[@HAHA.GoodMeme]

just take a break for 30 minutes....then catch up to them in 5 minutes.

[@louieatienza8762]

They even do that on highways, parking on the left lane like they own the road...

[@Yugemos]

It's almost as good as being stuck behind somebody with their junkyard farmer welded broken tie rods and other junk getting in the way.

[@melissasmess2773]

@@YugemosNaw, they are the one who will weld your junk back together on the trail. 😂

[@kevinvoyer5053]

My new Gladiator doesn’t have any locker differential. However I know a trick I use on many vehicles including folk lifts. That when a tire spins on one side I slowly apply the emergency brake that equalized the rear wheels and help continue. Every time it has worked. Especially if you add two independent levers to control each side.

[@matthewprather7386]

Stuck in mud isn’t typically helped by selecting low range..

[@larzlarz1140]

This trail isn’t muddy. It is rock. And if you read the comments people say things like “we drive a 3500 HD and we walked the last couple of miles to prevent damage to the vehicle” or “we took our stock JL sport to the end. as a Subaru owner as well, I can say this trail is not subaruable”.

[@Malc664]

@@larzlarz1140 😂😂👍🏼👍🏼

[@SPHYNX99752]

​@@larzlarz1140 😂Subaruable! I like that one. I used to out Subaru the Subaru with a 1982 Volkswagen Rabbit. Now, I own an S model and an L model Subaru... the Rabbit is hibernating next to my house with only 46k original miles on it.

[@mrvang8077]

Knowing how to operate your vehicle is the key to getting unstuck. Having a wheel locker is crucial in getting out of a sticky situation without it. Your dead in the mud. Having the right set of tires for the terrain plays n important role of not getting stuck.

[@daves3016]

Could be it was mired in the mud so bad the oversized tires couldnt turn in high range, need the low range torque in the nasty stuff.

[@afriquelesud]

I have travelled far and wide in the wilder parts of South Africa 🇿🇦, as we never even owned a 4x4 for overlanding in the 1960's and 70's. They had large diameter wheels with high rubber profiles, and great clearance. Sedans took us places,well before the insanity even started.

[@jeffk464]

The fine comes from calling out a wrecker. Also you normally can't take anything offroad in national parks, usually thats allowed on BLM/National Forest land. I kind of don't like National Parks because they're super restrictive, overcrowded, tourist traps.

[@killermed95]

I use a lifted FJ Cruiser on 33" tires and I can say for fact those rules are needed. It's dangerous for you and your family and friends to take an ill equipped vehicle on the trails in the name of fun. As soon as you kill someone you love you'll realize it was for nothing. If you can buy something used you can build into an amazing off-road vehicle and just keep the fun safe.

[@Tinker3504]

Little disappointed that instead of actually going over the difference between AWD and a 4x4, the hosts chose to land on “low range”. Yet didn’t go over a transfer case. Meanwhile in a recent review, they covered the “fake low range” on things like Jeep renegades.

[@Cloud30000]

On the trails they are discussing, the vehicles are more torque limited than traction limited, thus why a low range is needed to prevent getting stuck. On top of that, having an AWD with manually fully locking center diff and a real low range is effectively the same as 4LO.

[@LivingOnCash]

I agree that this is a can of worms. Leaving it up to the ranger is a bad idea. Who is to determine what the ranger's qualifications are? You could get some newbie that just transferred from a city with zero off road experience. You also can't just look up vehicle specs and go off that. For example, I used to own an Jeep WJ which is AWD but with a low range. It also had a 4" lift with front and rear D44's with OX lockers, 4.56 gears on 33's. The factory specs would say it has lower ground clearance and is AWD so an inexperienced or unknowledgeable ranger might say it can't go when in fact, it is just as capable as a Rubicon Wrangler. You are also correct in that driver experience is a big factor. As someone that has been wheeling since the early '70s and has wheeled all over the country, I'd venture that I can run trails better in a less capable vehicle than that city boy that just bought a brand new Rubi and has never even driven on a dirt road before. This is a bad policy. Leaving the decision as to who can or can not run a trail to the ranger sounds like a recipe for a discrimination law suit. "The ranger didn't let me run this trail because I'm (fill in the chosen victim class)". Imagine if a ranger told you that you can't hike a particular trail because you are not wearing the proper foot gear or your walking stick wasn't the right size!

[@JustinG9698]

The low range argument would eliminate some of the newer GM trucks since they decided to make low range an option

[@Jaypher]

my Outback Wilderness would have no issue on that trail but I understand why they want to limit use. Getting stuck is dangerous and impactful to the environment.

[@aaronh305]

With these "lifestyle" vehicles as you called them, becoming so popular I think the pard service needs to make 3 categories. Street only vehicles, Soft roaders or Lifestyle AWD, and High clearance 4x4. List a minimum clearance, any other requirements like LSD, recovery hoos, skid plates, Crawl gear, tire ratings. They can even change the trail rating like the fire hazard sign based on recent weather. Even then people can argue edge cases but pointing these lifestyle vehicles to a better option trail is going to work better than just saying 4x4 High clearance only.

[@nicvanengen9545]

Naa, don't over-complicate it. Most officers will let common sense prevail, and use common sense themselves. Let them enforce to their liking. Sure there are a few jerks out there who will abuse their power but that will be a problem no matter what the regulations are.

[@markgerhart8112]

I've witnessed this several times in both canyonlands and in San dunes natl parks. Subaru has not manufactured a true four-wheel drive vehicle since 1983.

[@journeywithstu7199]

I can’t take my dog on a hike in a national park. I might not like the rule, but that’s the rule. There’s plenty of other places to take my dog. Now substitute Subaru for dog and have fun elsewhere.

[@lloydswartz7354]

I hate the dog rule

[@derekschinke2512]

@@lloydswartz7354 the dog rule is good and protects wildlife.

[@pigletshut]

You actually reminded me of a Subaru Crosstrek TV ad where they're having fun in a very large park, like dogs in an off-leash park. 🤣

[@robertbiedermann4255]

I say take the dog. Screw them.

[@geezerpleasers_OG]

In fact, my grand-niece can't fly her beloved unicorn kite in many national parks. Kites are banned in a lot of parks.

[@michaelneilson977]

By the Salt River in AZ I got stuck off roading. A guy came by with a winch, stressed out about how bad I was stuck saying he would try to help get my out. He kept saying "gow the hell did you even get a Chevy Impala out here?" A great driver can take a two wheel drive into crazy places. A good driver with youth on their side can get stuck in crazy places.

[@KingLuis1985]

just throwing this out there, but doesn't the TRX and new RHO use an AWD system and not a conventional system?

[@silverspec]

Still has a low range. My 21 Bronco has an Automatic 4WD setting which is intended for on road semi slippery situations like rain light slow etc. But like many other proper 4wd vehicles with an AWD setting I also have the ability to put the Bronco into 2wd 4Hi and 4 LO. That's the difference.

[@KingLuis1985]

@@silverspec ya, I’m familiar with the ford products. Also know the trx doesn’t do 2wd. So kind of a grey area there. Obviously it’s can do well. I know that. But drive train rules just don’t always make sense.

[@Jay-me7gw]

@@KingLuis1985My LX570 and GX460 can’t run in 2wd but are still considered 4wd because both can lock the axles together.

[@Cloud30000]

From Car and Driver: “The Ram 1500 TRX uses a BorgWarner 48-13 full-time active transfer case with a 2.64:1 low range” This is a fully locking transfer case (not an AWD differential), similar to Ford, with 4WD Auto, 4WD HI, and 4WD Low. It just never disengages, so it lacks 2WD.

[@Jay-me7gw]

@@Cloud30000 The Raptor, F150 tremor and ai believe the Bronco tcases lock despite having 4Auto

[@mojo4376]

No Doucharus (Subarus) on the trails.

[@socalsteve9734]

Ripe for a legal challenge. Has four wheel drive vehicle been precisely defined? Technically all four wheels of a Subaru “drive”. Has high clearance been defined? Is there an exact height? From where is it measured? What if the vehicle is modified with larger tires or suspension lift? Is the ranger crawling under with a ruler?

[@Ryan-sw3km]

8" is the height I've seen. And that is to the lowest point, which could be diffs or any suspension linkage. And I doubt they will enforce it with a ruler, but most people can see when a vehicle definitely doesn't have that amount of clearance

[@krashnpa]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Whoa. So you're saying my CR-V isn't invincible?!

[@jg8263]

Many "4x4" vehicles have open differentials, not even limited slip. An AWD system with decent torque vectoring may be more off-road capable depending on other factors. It's not a simple answer as to what is truly capable of severe off-roading. Or what about a "4x4" bro-dozer that's been lifted and put on those stupid big rims and rubber band tires. It's low range, high clearance, sure, but off-road capable, heck no.

[@billj5645]

I don't know about those Utah trails but a couple of days ago I did a Colorad trail rated 3 out of 10 and it required low range gearing, there were some sections that were very steep and could not be climbed by an AWD. There were also sections that required more articulation than the average AWD vehicle has.

[@newscoulomb3705]

Regardless of the standards they settle on, I definitely don't like the standard association of misdemeanors, probation, and prison sentences for what should essentially be considered infractions (i.e., traffic violations). We've already seen cases where Park Services have abused their power and prosecutors have attempted to send people to prison for what should have been a simple ticket due to a miscommunication.

[@JogBird]

its for if you kill someone

[@newscoulomb3705]

@@JogBird If you say so, but they literally tried to throw a hiker in prison because he camped 200 feet on the wrong side of a line after following a Ranger's instructions. So it's definitely being abused.

[@newscoulomb3705]

12:40 A lot of offroaders still don't fully understand EVs well because AWD EV powertrains actually act a lot more like ICE 4x4 powertrains than ICE AWD powertrains. The biggest issue is that many EVs still lack locking differentials (whether managed with hardware or software), but low range is already baked into EV powertrains due to how much pedal control/modulation they provide. In terms of the Solterra, it actually has well over 8" of ground clearance stock, though the street tires would be an issue. I'd have to see how large of a tire it could support, but an upsized AT tire could easily push it over 9" of ground clearance on a relatively short wheelbase. The Jaguar I-PACE would likely also turn some Park Ranger's heads, even though it has over 9.5" of ground clearance available in stock configuration when driving at lower (i.e., trail) speeds. Still, I think some of this falls on both the Park Services and the automakers to publish additional metrics beyond just 9" for "high clearance" trails/vehicles. Defining minimum acceptable approach, breakover, and departure angles would be a a good start.

[@ScramblinJim]

Sooo . . . I have a 2015 Porsche Cayenne Diesel with a transfer case w/low range. By these new “rules” I’d be fined. But . . . I’ve installed 32” BFG KO2’s, added a swing-out tire carrier to carry a 5th tire, added a winch plate with recovery points, added a 2” lift, and added full underbody skid plates and rock rails. Humm ??? I go out with Jeep lifted JK’s, Gladiators, etc when doing tougher trails. Yes I lift wheels due to stock suspension travel but have yet to needed assistance getting out of a problem. I have experienced my vehicle issuing a “hot gear box” warning after extremely hard rock crawling. I had to wait for the temperature to come back down (5 minutes) before getting full power. My friends say the trails we’ve been on together are “Porsche Rated”, not Jeep Trail Rated. BTW, I had a 2010 Jeep JK and greatly prefer the Cayenne’s comfort and great fuel economy!

[@TheAnnoyingBoss]

Americant Citizens love tyranny

[@derekschinke2512]

the rules are: "A Jeep, sport utility vehicle (SUV), or truck type with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a driveshaft that can directly power each wheel at the same time and a transfer case that can shift between powering two wheel or four wheels in low or high gear. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition." If you meet this, you're fine.

[@georgetidd8972]

Had a guy on our trip to Death Valley , from Ballarat up through the canyon over Mengel Pass, he had the Porsche Cayenne gas, with lift and BFG’s….His tires were spinning out a lot……and some grinding on some parts of the trail, but he made it. Ripped out some side rails and some underneath damage too.

[@ScramblinJim]

I received a notification from my over-landing club that my vehicle will NOT be allowed to participate in future club events. So at this point in time I’m done!!!😡

[@georgetidd8972]

@@ScramblinJim Sorry to hear that! I drive a Defender,,,,very comfortable and very capable…..it’s got a 1.5 suspension lift with BFG’s , something to consider if your looking for comfort and I can get 23mpg on the highway. All the Best!

[@EnufIsTooMuch]

The law should be stated with specific technical requirements. Failing that is is much too broad, ill defined and represents the common malfunction of a bureaucracy. There should never be a punishment where no harm or expense to the public took place. No different to me of a highway traffic enforcement being a no-cost warning, not a ticket with a fine. Government extracting money from a Citizen's pocket for zero impact to the public good is to me an outrage and a symptom of what's wrong with our citizen-government. About technical specs there is certainly a difference between AWD and 4WD. Problem is that stock 4WD and stock AWD models, model by model, can have surprising numbers for clearances. As such the NPS should be precise in their regulations. State minimum clearances, tire specs, suspension travel, need for roll cage, having a low range, etc. Not doing so puts us again in the miserable area of being subject to a bureaucrats whims as to what the rules mean for one citizen or another.

[@michaellowe3665]

Locking differentials or some kind of torque transfer mechanism is more important than a low range. I would take a lifted crosstrek over a 4wd pickup with open differentials on most trails.

[@Wizard_puncher]

I blame the auto manufacturers with commercials that lie to consumers by advertising that they can drive (AWD) vehicles “anywhere”.

[@regsparkes6507]

Me too, absolutely.

[@Cloud30000]

I love seeing small cars shown on top of mountains without a trail going up to it; they must have pushed it up that mountain.

[@garbinator09]

Naaah! ALL WHEEL capability is what I see. Sales people? Sounds exactly like them. In my travels, all wheel cars are used extensively on harsh slippery winter surfaces often mounting special snow/ice tires. Many winter people use two sets of tires. Summer/winter. Alaska, where I have family are really big into this usage. Subarus are very popular for reliability issues as well.

[@garbinator09]

Fuel cost are also crazy expensive

[@katieandkevinsears7724]

I took a manual Ford Fiesta on some roads you would never expect a front wheel drive subcompact on. It's all about knowing your lines and keeping it in a low gear.

[@bigwooly8014]

I took a grand marquis down a "high clearance 4x4 only trail" to get to a campsite at Big Bend. Zero problems, had a great time. Its the driver not the vehicle.

[@Support_Ad_Blocker]

🤨

[@bigwooly8014]

@@Support_Ad_Blocker paint gap site #4

[@windrider65]

The driver can be a big difference, however you are eventually going to run into something that the vehicle just can't handle. This is what the Park Service is trying to avoid.

[@bigwooly8014]

@windrider65 I can appreciate that. But again, it comes down to the driver. I had been down the trail to Paint Gap #4 before. I knew what was there, but I still walked it before i drove it to make sure nothing had changed since the last time I'd seen it. That's how I knew taking that Grand Marquis to that campsite was not going to be a problem despite the "high clearance 4x4 only sign." In my opinion, the root of the problem is the novice idiot drivers. Not so much the vehicles they are driving.

[@Jaegov]

It’s the positraction rearend 😉

[@n1tr0kt]

As someone with a Subaru Outback Wilderness I avoid those trails with my CVT and horrible approach angle, but I'm wondering which, if any, of the new 4x4s would be "approved" and capable of these trails without modification? The new Landcruiser, the 4runner, the Defender, the GX550, half the Jeep Wranglers and Ford Bronco trims, they all have less clearance than my wagon. Forget Jeep's Rubicon badging, I'd like to see which 4x4s can travel all the roads in our national parks when I walk into a dealer. Let's see TFL use the worst of these high-clearance 4x4 roads as a testing benchmark.

[@nelsonvanvickle8862]

GOOD question! I have an Onyx XT and even my Subie with almost 9” has better ground clearance than a wide swath of vehicles rated for “off-road” use. 👍🏻

[@off-roadingexplained8417]

The difference between AWD and 4wd is basically that typically, part time 4wd will have a locked center differential. But it's so pedantic... So my Cherokee Trailhawk is technically AWD... But jeep has a commercial of them diving it oh Hells revenge. ... I'm just saying... To your point, maybe a better rule would be to list a minimum crawl ratio... Let's say 25:1 , etc. I would say some minimum approach departure breakover , plus some minimum clearance , plus some minimum crawl ratio... Probably 25:1 or better.

[@macbook802]

If the vehicle has 4 wheels, awd is 4wd. If the park rangers want low range 4wd only, the sign should specify. The cybertruck is awd

[@maximeparent3004]

I love this. Finally, people that differentiate lifted hatchbacks from true SUVs. I wish there was more body on frame, rear solid axle and 2 speed transfer case SUVs.

[@zachlafond2652]

better yet just ban everyone and/or put fees on every trail.

[@Jay-me7gw]

Same. And ones that can tow too. The 4Runner, Bronco and Wrangler can’t really tow that well. The Lexus GX and 200 series Land Cruiser/Lexus LX can but the prices are pretty high

[@Davejansma]

Where I am from (vancouver island, British Columbia, Canada) we see these awd type vehicles going up forest service road. Without true four wheel drive tearing up hills as they spin causing erosion destroying roads over time.

[@lawdog516]

You may say to yourself that if I get stuck then its my problem, WELL NO as a retired Law Enforcement officer with 40 years of service, SOMEONE has to come and save you and jeopardize their safety, think about that, thanks great video

[@TheBulap]

Active LEO here - our vehicles are also standard Tahoes and such, and none of the other services (including Fire, EMS, etc.) really have dedicated off-road rigs. If you get yourself stranded in the middle of nowhere, help is not going to be there anytime soon.

[@ScramblinJim]

@@TheBulap Gee isn't that why you go with another vehicle, NOT BY YOURSELF!!!

[@TheBulap]

@@ScramblinJim I don’t have the luxury of always having other cops available to come with me, where I work it’s usually single-officer shifts.

[@johndm4300]

I saw a stranded Tesla when I drove Stony Pass in Co back in July. We were amazed it had made it near the summit.

[@grunkalunka3449]

If it doesnt have low range. Its not suitable. Simple really.

[@code54crunchy50]

I mean with some 8-10 speed transmissions the first gear is short enough to be a crawl gear is a crawl gear tires are probably the biggest problem

[@MichaelAllen-td1uu]

The OBX of North Carolina the Park Service has the same issue on the sand. No ground clearance and they ignore the signs to reduce tire pressure.

[@tiagoramalhais5493]

For sand the most important factors are weight and tyre pressure/thread, ironically the balder the tyre the best they usually are in sand.

[@theharmelodynetwork]

why isn't anyone getting angry that there is a law proposed that could potentially jail you for not having the right vehicle off road? if I try to drive my ford fiesta up pikes peak and get stuck, why does the government get to put me in jail for that?

[@Youtubeuser1aa]

Because you need to be separated from society for being dumb, wasting resources, and putting peoples lives at risk.

[@nx2269]

@@KZbinuser1aaLots of off-roaders do dumb stuff, even those with 4 low. $5k and 6 months in jail is bananas.

[@Youtubeuser1aa]

@@nx2269 put 1st responders in unnecessary risk and drain resource? Need to learn a lesson I guess. If you’re dumb you better be tough.

[@cruisingaltitudepilot]

@@KZbinuser1aaok Karen

[@Youtubeuser1aa]

@@cruisingaltitudepilot Karens are the one getting stuck in their unibody suv and complaining when rangers don’t fly in a helicopter to save them and their toy dog

[@stolman2197]

Tour guide here, I know the tow company call-out fee for the White Pockets road (Vermillion Cliffs NM) is $1k (that's the starting point). My employer absolutely forbids us from attempting to extract any vehicles not belonging to us. I make sure they have water and have contacted assistance and can I get around them.

[@djstuski]

Even before i saw the type of car the dude had, i knew it was a Subaru driver LMAO

[@Stryckerrr]

Reminds me of the episode in Bluey when dad reads sign saying "4WD Only" he looks bummed out but the kid says "how many wheels do we have?" Dad says "4! Buckle up!" And mobs it through the trail.

[@ml9867]

I wonder if this CrossTrek was a Wilderness model.

[@jgalleg4]

I don't know that it matters. It's still an AWD vehicle with no low-range and a CVT.

[@ml9867]

@@jgalleg4 It probably wouldn't make a difference to the government, but the Wilderness model has off-road-ish tires and a slight suspension lift. If these people drove the standard model, they're even more crazy.

[@jgalleg4]

@@ml9867 I own a 6MT Crosstrek with off-road tires myself, and while it’s certainly more capable than a lot of cars, it is nowhere near as capable as a true 4x4. The Wilderness Crosstrek is only about 0.5” higher than the normal one, which has 8.7” of clearance. That’s not really a meaningful difference.

[@ml9867]

@@jgalleg4 Cool, yeah I agree. I wish I had any Subaru Wilderness model. I was just curious if those people thought they could conquer the Baja 1000 with it. I just bought some taller all-weather tires for my 2wd vehicle that will be awesome in the winter compared to the all-season junk I've always had. They're the same type that are on the Mustang Mach-E Rally. It should also be easier for me to get in and out of the car, with it being like an inch taller.

[@Jim-s6i3b]

I don’t have a Subaru crosstrek wilderness. Have a 4Runner, but have seen videos where it can outperform some 4WD vehicles in some off-road situation’s

[@dhsbazooka]

The Government should stay out of it.

[@buckhorncortez]

The trails are on government land. There is nothing to "stay out of."

[@TheoPhilpot]

@@buckhorncortezit’s PUBLIC LAND

[@sammyjammy6647]

OK, if the government should stay out of it, you shouldn’t expect any rescue from any government sourced agency to help you if you get stuck

[@tedecker3792]

What a weird comment

[@sammyjammy6647]

@@tedecker3792 have you studied your picture, Ted? It’s the epitome of weird.

[@halnwheels]

Subaru's symmetrical AWD is better than most other AWD systems. On another point, many years ago I had a 1966 VW camper bus that had significant ground clearance. It had transfer cases on the rear wheels, making the axles above the center line of the wheels. It also had 2/3 gear reduction giving it a torque advantage. I would take it on trails down to the river in Ellenville NY to camp. People with Jeeps were amazed at its ability. The front and rear suspensions and driveline of the pre-1968 VW bus was take directly from the Kubelwagon used by the Germans in WWII. Although the bus was two wheel drive, it was rear engine and very capable.

[@jakes5530]

If you wanna go off road just bite the bullet and get a truck or BOF suv. Plenty of people who dont even off-road own these types of vehicles (myself included) they’re really not that bad to live with every day. Dont fool yourself into believing that your CVT Subaru “wilderness” is gonna cut it when the going actually gets tough.

[@br9760]

Define "tough". I don't think any crossover should be on high traffic 4x4 trails, BUT the wilderness editions are likely the best awd crossovers to get away with it in. Those and the tremor mavericks.

[@Cloud30000]

@@br9760and a Sprinter is the best van to race at Daytona, but that doesn’t mean it’s qualified to do so

[@dmegahan]

A bronco sport badlands can do more than most trucks that don’t have lockers. Small wheel base and a rear locker makes a great combo.

[@richardscherder8039]

According to the supreme court ruling recently. The rule must be specific in the law and can not be made up by the agency.

[@derekschinke2512]

it is specific: "A Jeep, sport utility vehicle (SUV), or truck type with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a driveshaft that can directly power each wheel at the same time and a transfer case that can shift between powering two wheel or four wheels in low or high gear. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition."

[@StuartBreland]

In the reddit thread it was pointed out "high clearance" was defined as 8inches of clearance which the Subaru CrossTrek (even the non "Wildress" version) has a more than 8 inch clearance. From the thread it focused more on it not having a high and low range capability. They claim AWD isn't 4x4 because you can't put it into low range.

[@ShaneTerry-o8c]

You also can't lock a Subarus differential

[@glsracer]

I have taken Volvos, lifted and stock height, up many serious trails that would surprise people. I mostly use my 4x4 truck now but I really think that clearance and tires are the most important thing for these roads. I had A/T-S tires on my old XC70 and my current Volvos run All Weather Nokians that are designed for Scandinavian back roads. I could probably make it 80 or 90% of the harder trails that people might take a Tacoma TRD or Frontier Pro-4X. You don't need low range with modern AWD systems and turbocharged engines. Electric high clearance vehicles are in the same boat. I just hope they update the laws with modern technology in mind. This isn't the 1960s, not everything need to have part time 4WD, a transfer case, or low range to be safe off road.

[@allentisthammer4763]

85 Volvo GL wagon owner here (Well it's my wife's car), little bugger keeps up with those hi-speed rigs on the freeway in Montanna and has yet to be stuck during wintertime snow out here, and never been pulled from a trail, (well I mean gravel side of the road). Anyways, one of these days I'm headed for Moab and you better watch me on the trails! Volvo's rock!

[@code54crunchy50]

This is what I’ve been saying these guys make these blanket statement laws based on outdated knowledge. Tires are usually the bottleneck on these modern awd cars and going to prison for this is absolutely insane

[@Jim-s6i3b]

don’t have a Subaru crosstrek wilderness. Have a 4Runner, but have seen videos where it can outperform some 4WD vehicles in some off-road situations

[@jtomtl]

Hahah😂, AWD crossover owners are not happy now

[@quixomega]

My Mazda CX-30 doesn't drive on anything worse than gravel roads. If I was planning to drive off-road I would have bought a truck, not a car.

[@damilolaakanni]

I'm sure most of them are fine, they only bought AWD vehicles for traction on snowy roads when the need arises.

[@tarfeef101]

No, I'm not, because most of the time those warnings just mean "have some clearance and a brain" It's very rare that I can't get up a road because my traction is a problem. Drawing this line in the sand for what amounts to a clearance issue is disappointing (I looked into this more a few days ago and the issue was clearance) There IS an argument for super loose and articulated roads where people might be causing erosion by relying on traction control due to AWD and unibody making for a loss of traction, and therefore chewing the ground up more. But they don't make that argument, so it seems just lazy tbh Also yeah just charge people an arm and a leg for rescue. Let people be responsible for themselves and make intelligent decisions

[@directorjustin]

I wouldn't be happy about this even if I owned the most capably built off road vehicle in the world. This is a bad idea throughout. There is endless nuance and subjectivity as to what makes a vehicle off road worthy enough. Even if they _did_ have a clear set of rules defined, like Roman said, it doesn't take skill level into account. This is a massive can of worms and will inevitably lead to prejudice.

[@Cloud30000]

I just take my truck, pump the tires to +10% psi, stick it in 2wd and go baha ally racing down the trail. Nothing like spinning tires around every corner for a little thrill ride!

[@Richard-k2f]

We have the same thing here in St Augustine Fl. We have a group on Facebook book called stuck on the beach. And at every entrance it says 4/4 only but here they come with 2 wheel or all wheel and at times the sand is very soft

[@jadebarnes7298]

Part of the problem is that high clearance, large tire 4x4’s dig ruts that smaller vehicles will get stuck in. I have a 1999 F150 4x4 and I high centered because someone with bigger tires went down in a pit and dug the hell out of it. I go through and my 32 inch tires and stock lift just didn’t make it.

[@ericschmidt1987]

I was at anza B in socal and of course an awd Hyundai Santa Fe was stuck and needed rescuing. What a pain. My Jeep ate through the sandy hill they were stuck in. I helped the go to a safe area for their rescue.

[@mrvang8077]

Proper tires and lift can get you far. How you approach the angle is really up to the driver and how confidence are they when facing tough spot. It's all about knowing your vehicle and what it's capable of or not.

[@terje5723]

"Real" 4x4 and higher clearance lets you get a little further in before getting stuck. Avoiding getting stuck is more up to the driver I would say. If you run your car off the highway your insurance would pay the rescue, why not a obligatory separate offroad insurance?

[@jameshuntsman6046]

Low range is based on a thing called torque. It’s a gear ratio that puts more low torque to a tire in the front and a tire in the back. Some vehicles either by the manufacturer or modified by the owner(or possible elves in the middle of the night) do a thing called all wheel drive. Which puts torque to all four tires. This gives a lot of power to each tire. You can’t turn very wheel so it’s really only designed for rock crawling, hence what most Moab trails require.

[@Sam_Saraguy]

I think the key words there might be "high clearance" but they are very specific about four-wheel drive as well. AWD is typically found in vehicles meant for urban environments or light off-road use where you might encounter rain, snow, or light mud - but are not intended for rock crawling or overcoming serious obstacles.

[@guentherwilke2055]

So do crossover Jeeps w/ "Trailhawk" badges get a pass? What about a Grand Cherokee w/o low range? Or a cheap Colorado w/o low range? Or a Crew/longbox HD pickup (with 4L and clearance) that can't make a hair-pin turn?

[@yourpappy57]

Having the right self-recovery gear and knowing how to use it, no matter your rig, is mighty important. Maybe that’s where the conversation should start? Thinking/learning about recovery and you get exposed to what you’re getting yourself in to. I’d like to see Roman do a video of himself doing a self-recovery, but Andre gets to bog it for him.