Nations | Rahdo's Final Thoughts

[@hooshyarkarimi9524]

I love when you compare games. Very useful. Thanks

[@timg7954]

Thanks for the enthusiastic reviews - I really appreciate you taking the time!

[@envyfangirl]

Thank you for this. I recently bought Nations, but I originally wanted to buy Through the Ages. Now that you've said what the differences include, I think I'll be happier with Nations than Through the Ages. So thanks again.

[@manuelraigada]

Hi there Rahdo, excellent work! I totally disagree with the assessment 'Nations kills TtA', though I understand and share most of your view. To me, they have tried to simplify and improve TtA, and the outcome of this process has nothing to do with TtA. The feelings you get when you finish a game of TtA and a game of Nations are not even close. Besides, I don't think you can compare the depth of decision making process in both games. The richness of situations in TtA, and the amount of variables that you need to control. I think Nations is a really nice simpler game, easier to play and to explain. The engagement is so much better than in TtA, where if you have AP players, downtime can be ridiculous. However, that doesn't necessarily makes Nations a better game. I think it makes it more approachable, affordable, 'friendlier'... but I wouldn't say better. They have made choices in order to improve what was wrong with TtA. And I honestly think they have done a great job. However, what they have left behind, is too much for me to say Nations is a better game. I could put it this way: Not all of us want a simpler game. Many people may, but that's not my case. When I play, I don't want an easy game. I prefer the rich and complex experience TtA provides. Don't get me wrong. I like Nations, and I'm quite aware of the fact that I will probably play it more in the future than TtA. But if it's up to me, I would choose TtA any time. And don't forget online gaming (BGO), where many of the cons of TtA vanish...

[@RundliiGaming]

Thanks for the play through on this. Our gaming club recently obtained a copy of this game and it helps learning a game by watching a video of it at least so I can teach it to others. Thanks again :)

[@shayanmv]

hi i'm wondering about the new tta is it better than nations or nations is still the civ game to get?

[@dabearz27]

Once again you have sold me on a great game, Richard. Bravo :)

[@JamesLudlow]

Good review. Some thoughts for anyone watching this now. This video predates the 2nd version of Through the Ages by a couple of years. That version improves on the 1st, which was already one of my all-time favorite games. The major change being that military went from the be-all-end-all (and a total king making spoiler in the 3p game) to just another important aspect of your civilization. It's interesting that the things that give TtA a lot of downtime also make it a superb asynchronous online game. (The TtA app / PC game is a fantastic way to play it.) I will note that early in this review a time comparison is made indicating that Nations can be played faster than the fast game of TtA. Later, I think he says that their Nations game took 3.5 - 4 hours. Something is wrong. Experienced TtA players should be taking around 45 minutes per player for the full game. Newbies and/or people with AP will drag TtA down big time though, so that may have factored into it. In any case, really good review here. I'm late to the Rahdo party. I've always been aware of his reviews, but never really watched them. What a great pace, voice, and presentation. I get why he's so popular now.

[@TheDawitchy]

TTA was in my top 10 forever, and when Nations came out, I seriously had doubts if it would trump TTA. Watching these reviews and agreeing with the length and downtime of TTA, I have to move Nations up the list as a must have. I know my gaming group enjoys TTA, but I think with all the bonuses this game gives they will warm up quickly.

[@sunnyqfn]

Yea, I totally agreed that Nations is an elegent version of TTA with perfect perfect modifications. Modified turn system, radically different games each time, shorter play time, eaiser maintenance, so many and so so many! But well, I really miss some of the brillant ideas of TTA such as (as you have mentioned) the mechanism of future events and colonies cards (!!), the citizens happiness stuff, and the direct war mechanism! I have played three 4-player games of Nations. My feeling is without military is nothing deadful, once you have a high stability (you know, you can immediately say bye bye if you do so in TTA). The concept of statbility cannot replace the idea of citizens happiness in TTA. Without low military or stability or even both just give you some panelties. It loses the beauty of TTA. Actually I hate the concept of stability, as once the event card is nothing concerning the stability, stability is nothing. Military is the same, though there is war card (but you can buy it first if you have the lowest military value) and military determines the player order. I long for a simplified TTA, more than an expension of Nations, Radho.

[@vip_2496]

You are 👍🏻 so brave. I like it when someone give clear opinion about something.

[@Gnarrkhaz]

I don't know about the two player game but our five player game (first time) recently took us about 5 to 6 hours. I'm not sure if it's that much shorter than Through The Ages and even if it was, it's still 5 to 6 hours. Also i'm tired of all those civilisation games that appear realistic and serious when looking at the box cover, but when you play them the history they tell is completely silly and implausible. These two things clash and the designers don't seem to notice.

[@steveg7000]

"Through the Ages Streamlined" seems to be the tagline that Rahdo was going for.

[@rahdo]

agreed!

[@alexmatusiak]

Ugh ... when you and Jen love a game, I know my wife Sarah and I will love it too. Why did you have to be so damn excited about this?!? Now I have to wait for it to show up across the pond in gut wrenching anticipation .... along with Glass Road, Caverna, Keyflower Farmers ....

[@davqvist]

Now I need both TTA and Nations in my personal collection. It seems great. Thanks for the insights.

[@joliver1313]

Considering TTA is one of my favorite games of all time this speaks highly of Nations...and I second what you say, a game can take ideas from other games and make it better, more streamlined, etc...and still be considered a great game on their own merits.

[@garydickson7044]

I am extremely curious to know what you think of "Clash of Cultures." I have seen it referred to as "Through the Ages" light -- that it plays much shorter and that it is in many ways better/enjoyable than "Through the Ages."

[@rahdo]

yeah, but it has a lot of combat, right? probably not the game for me and jen then :)

[@SpoonerSPON]

***** You don't need to do any combat in CoC and you are unlikely to get to do any until nearer the end of the game just because of the slow movement on the map. I've certainly played games were there wasn't a single player vs. player fight (though you often need to fight barbarian settlements and you could consider prozeletizing your opponent's cities, which takes VP but leaves them with control of them, as combat). It really isn't TtA light though, by any stretch of the imagination, if only because it doesn't advance past the ancient world!

[@garydickson7044]

Bil Bas -- I think Richard you need to do a runthrough of CoC :)

[@rahdo]

I must admit Bil makes a strong argument... sounds good :)

[@SpoonerSPON]

I just wanted to say it wasn't a game with a "lot of combat". Combat is certainly a very viable strategy, but it isn't a critical one. One thing I did consider since I made the original comment, however, is that the game loses a fair bit of variety if you discount the conquest route (over cultural conflict, which as I said doesn't damage your opponent - it just steals VP - or simple self-improvement). I hope I've just made you do a bit more research on the topic rather than take the dramatic war scene on the cover as actually representative of the majority of the game-play :D

[@TyphoidBryan]

Wow.. Through the Ages has been on my wishlist for a while due to the Rahdo Runthrough (...the Ages!). Now I may need to rethink it based upon Nations. This seems to be a proper "replacement" for a game that it's inspired by; unlike Caverna in regard to Agricola. Tom Vasel has openly replaced Agricola based upon Caverna and I don't think I would be as quick to switch. I think Nations, however, seems to be what I'm truly looking for in a civ-development game.

[@martinidamian]

I'm interested to know if Nations is still on your shelf or if you found something to replace it.

[@rahdo]

yup, still have it, and it's still in my top10 fave games of all time :)

[@martinidamian]

@@rahdo awesome. I just got me the expansion as well

[@5ergion]

Hello, Richard. I'm a relatively new boardgames fan and I have to thank you a lot for being a great "cicerone" for this first 6 months of playing and discovery, guiding me through a huge amount of games I would probably never even have heard about... Do you still keep what you said about Through the Ages compared to Nations, now that the 2nd edition of "Through the Ages: A New Story of Civilization" has come to light? I'm still waiting to buy my first civilization game and I can't decide what to get... Have you considered doing a Top 10 civ games?...

[@rahdo]

+5ergion i haven't looked very close at what changes have been made for the new TTA, but my understanding is they're minor tweaks, which means nations is still the game for us! i think we're getting to the point where i could list 10 civ games that jen and i love, but we're not there yet! :)

[@winterplum]

Excellent...I am glad to hear that this stands up to the hype. Thank you for doing this timely review...(first impression, final thoughts), on what I am glad to hear is a super game.

[@cedspectre1]

Nations and Russian Railroads are at the top of my buy list right now, but which one to buy first?! Another fantastic video.

[@smolderssteven]

how does it compare with 7 wonders i know it might be a strange question not sure how i have to ask it oO Will you like this game if you like 7 wonders ? In view off building your city, getting resources , military. Is it in comparison also as easy to pick up what you really want out of your civ like 7 wonders. I might be stupid asking this but i hope you understand what im asking.

[@rahdo]

well they're thematically similar, but in terms of gameplay they're RADICALLY different. i would say though that you can definitely target a type of civ you want to build and follow that path throughout the game. i guess if you like 7 wonders and are ready for a much heavier, longer game, then you may very well like nations too :)

[@smolderssteven]

Ty for your responce I actually ordered it im going to pick it up tommorow at my local game store :D

[@tassssman]

Very nice 3 videos... got all, whats I want to hear before buying

[@fenrirsreign]

Hi Rahdo, now that the new TTA is out. Which one do you like better? Natios or TTA: A new story?

[@rahdo]

still nations :)

[@fenrirsreign]

That's amazing. I recently got to choose between one and the other, and most comparisons I could find were comparing Nation the the previous TTA. It's really nice to know that it is still holding it's ground even with the new TTA around. Thank you for answering.

[@Scubasgamecorner]

I know you play mostly 2 player...what changes did you make if any to play just you and Jen?

[@rahdo]

pretty much just what the rules call for... mostly less cards come out every round :)

[@betatrontentetk6615]

Today. After more than 1,5 plays... Do you think its still as good as you assure in this video? Thanks for the videos.

[@rahdo]

yup, i played it again recently, full player count, and I still think it's the best game of the year... i'll be doing a 2013 top 10 update video soon (maybe this week) :)

[@foldesgabe]

Hey Richard, you still got TtA for selling? I'm interested buying it, and since I'm in Europe too, shipping won't be that much of a problem. Thnx

[@rahdo]

cool, where are you? i'll figure out what shipping would be to get it there (shipping is crazy expensive out of malta)

[@foldesgabe]

***** ok, you should check Slovakia then. I've already asked my local gaming store to find a copy near me , we'll see. Thank you!

[@rahdo]

foldesgabe ok. i just checked, and shipping from malta to slovakia would be over €30!!! so i don't think a sale like this makes sense...

[@foldesgabe]

***** ok thanx! I want this game so badly so if I still can't find a copy near me soon, no shipping price will hold me back :)

[@Armitage01101]

I hope they eventually issue another version of this game with better card art. With cards being such a large part of the game it would really help if they were more evocative.

[@BenGreen1980]

I'm worried that Nations nerfed war too much. What makes TTA so good is that it's such a knife edge the whole game. TTA punishes your mistakes in a way that makes you feel how hard it was for civilizations to endure. It reminds me of Agricola in that stressful way that I happen to love. Is Nations HARD or punishing?

[@rahdo]

some people say that if you play with the more advanced cards, it becomes very gruelling and unforgiving, but we haven't found that to be the case. HOWEVER, if you change the difficulty, and play on the tougher levels, the game can get pretty hard going, and every little bit counts. so yeah, i guess it can be punishing if you want it to be... :)

[@1981dardar]

Richard , just curious, why did you get through the ages back after u trade it in the first place? Another question : where do u usually trade boardgames ?? I am living in asia. Places to trade is quite limited as boardgame hobby is still catching up. btw, i have only one complaint on nations. The artwork on the cards is not as epic as the game. other than that , the gameplay seems nice. The biggest flaw of this boardgame is the components and production values doesnt justified the price at all...

[@larsrignell2027]

Thanks for a great review! You got me to order the game and I am looking forward to see this game in action!

[@adriang6259]

Hey, I love your videos, even though you might go a little fast with the run through. I Have one question. What would you prefer to play, this game or Eclipse?

[@rahdo]

this, no doubt. eclipse wasn't for us, for reasons i oulined in my runthrough of that game

[@adriang6259]

Oh, wish i'd seen that review now, thanks. I'm always looking for a new good game and I was looking at this, eclipse and mansions of madness.

[@DennisBozic]

Hey Rahdo, I want to get a great Civ-Game, and now I've to choose between NATIONS and the new HISTORIA. Which one do you recommend? Thanks!

[@rahdo]

Dennis Bozic of for me, it's nations... no brainer! :)

[@DennisBozic]

Okay. :)

[@HeirToPendragon]

TTA is really short if you actually know what you're doing. We kill 4 player games in 2 hours.

[@SuperTupko]

Hello rahdo. Its a great game! Me and my friend play it very often and is great. Can i ask what is your opinion now about the game after more than 1 year?! Is it the same as was in video?! What is your first strategy when you play game? :) Do you maybe know if in near future any expansion will be avaiable? (Official)

[@rahdo]

SuperTupko still think it's great, and wish i could play it more often. opening strategy is always defined by what cards are availalbe for display crossed with what nation i am, so it's always going to be different. i know they're working on expansion stuff, but no idea when it'll be ready :)

[@K0UK0U]

Speechless by this review Great Job

[@adx7473]

Thanks, order for Nations just placed :)

[@Linxen21]

good runthrough as always….regretting that I didn´t buy this game at Essen. Deffo gonna buy it as soon as it gets available here. Love TtA but as you say, it´s too long...

[@jwspiker]

your BGG rating is super high for this top 10 game.

[@rahdo]

yup, i'm heavy in love with it right now, in a way that few games hit me. jen agrees as well :)

[@MichaelSillion]

"I'm bring it back again"

[@smolderssteven]

one more day and i get to play it :D

[@kosterix123]

This is not final thoughts on Nations...

[@NeilBlaiberg]

Through the Ages - Streamlined :-)

[@TheFlymar]

I like the gameplay but I don't like the art on the cards. I know it's all symbolic and stuff but I can't stop thinking how great it would look with 'proper' leaders or wonders.

[@GlockoPat]

Totally agree about Nations killing off TTA. :)

[@christophsander4665]

another impulsive purchase.. your videos are getting expensive^^

[@freddieyu]

Sold me again! My wallet!

[@SherardYu]

:(

[@Silvervinge72]

Well, I am pretty much a visual junkie, but Nations design looks pretty...bland, besides the art on the cards. The graphics seems sloppy and hasted, and I actually *hate* the manual. I think its horrible! Badly written and - whats worse - pretty confusing. Besides; the iconography is not well done - the colors and symbols are not used consistantly. (See icon for cost of placing a worker, for example.) In my views the game itself seems way too long for what it gives out. My suspiscion is that this for you is TTA 2, a new life? Thats fine, but for me who hasnt played TTA this just feels...weird. This feels more like a boxing match or a bicycle race where you constantly looks for weaknesses and ways to exploit your opponents rather than developing something yourself. I *love* your videos, but I do *not* agree with you here.. ;-)

[@nellgwenn]

It doesn't bother you that all the grain in Rome came from Egypt? Yet Egypt starts out with less food? That doesn't make any sense. Also the warriors who finally crushed the Crusaders came from Egypt the Mamluks? Even Saladin who did originally come from Syria was embedded in Egypt when King Richard came to town. Yet Egypt has no military? That makes no sense either. And Egypt was very rich. All my gold I'm wearing right now comes from Egypt. Persia was rich too, because of the silk trade and spices and an intellectual class. Especially pre-Crusades. But to just say offhand for some arbitrary reason Egypt has less food starting out and no military capabilities rubs me the wrong way. They had a coast guard for Christ sake, and a light house. A very famous lighthouse. And neighbors that were very war happy. Doesn't it bother you that these historical games aren't more based in fact? It's not fun for me when I see stuff like that. Which is nice that you do these run-throughs so I can check games off the list.

[@rahdo]

nope, doesn't bother me. the game creates an alternate world history, different every time, and i very much enjoy it. if you take a broad enough sweep of history, you'll find egypt suffered from highs and lows in all these metrics, just like every other civilization. iirc, egypt's dominance was brought about by famine. google search says: www.newscientist.com/article/mg17323271-800-how-egypt-was-felled-by-famine-in-2180-bc/ so let's just say that the game envisions an Egypt past it's prime, at the the end of the old kingdom's greatness, and it's up to you to steer the ship differently that what history tells us.

[@nellgwenn]

Well I would argue that Egypt's dominance was also brought on because of the Nile. which may be saying the same thing you are but differently. What I mean by that is what does Egypt have that the other northern African countries don't have? If you have ever seen the I believe HBO series Rome. In one of the later episodes they do talk about the grain shortage because of what was happening in Egypt. In any event Egypt did fed the Mediterranean. And as I watched your run-through I kept bugging me. About the Egypt situation. I suppose I didn't see how being more factual about the food and no military had any real baring on the game play. In other words if it had been more factual I couldn't envision you being like, "Egypt can have a military? Well I'm not playing this game." One last thing about Egypt. If you and your wife ever get a chance to go to Egypt do so. You won't regret it. And go to Cairo, Luxor (the Valley of the Kings), and Alexandria. Parts of the lighthouse are still in the water near the beach. And also plan to be in Alexandria on a day where you can visit the famous library. We didn't have that opportunity. It was closed to tourists that day. Before you go since you did like the fact that you liked the game without it being too factual I would like your opinion on something. I do have an idea about a board game. It would be called Beethoven: The Most Famous Four Notes in the World. Not to the exclusion of other things going on, it would be a game in which people take turns being Beethoven composing the 5th. Symphony. Just on that information alone, would that intrigue you, or spark your curiosity to find out how it works? Or would you think it was boring? Let me know. I don't know what would come of this idea. But just as a reality check. Thanks.

[@rahdo]

well, historical accuracy aside, the reason that egypt has these settings is primarily because they wanted each civilization to have a completely different feel, and starting with no military is definitely that. all ancient cultures had strong military forces some points, and at other times they didn't (again, in the new kingdom, egypt was repeatedly conquered by other civilizations, so one could argue that's why it doesn't start with a strong military in the game, and it starts with no food because of the famine that it experienced IRL as well). basically, the game doesn't represent Egypt at the height of it's powers, but during its decline as an ancient world power. a design choice, primarily, but with some historical precedent behind it, i'd say. the 4 notes game sounds like a very interesting concept, definitely.

[@nellgwenn]

Thank you for your input about the madness behind the genius of the game or visa versa. Also thank you for the input on my Beethoven game. To your knowledge would there be one game company more than another that would be more receptive to that kind of idea. The game would not be a cute and cuddly children's game. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But the game board, the theme would be dripping in 19th. century Germany, Austria, and France. Napoleon would be out and about doing his thing and Beethoven would be doing his thing. As well as other pertinent characters in the story. I ask because I have no car, I'm not a kid, very limited disposable income, and a pacemaker, and no one I know lives in the world of board games. A while ago I was looking for a present for my sister for her birthday, and went looking for board games. And I had no idea this alternate world of board gaming existed. So I spend at least 10 days to 2 weeks looking at videos of board games. I settled on Spyfall. Her and her group like party games. As I was doing this I looked into Napoleonic games and I decided to satisfy me the game would be very involved and take at least a year to finish. Then I saw a wonderful documentary about Beethoven. And I said this story would make a great board game. But I haven't the first clue as to how or what to do about it. Or if it's DOA. However I did notice it seems to be a subject that is untouched in your world of games. I looked at two games The Virgin Queen and Unhappy King Charles. My thinking hopefully is that if there is a company willing to make those 8 to 10 hour board games, there's got to be room somewhere for my little game.

[@rahdo]

check my faq, #19 for the only suggestions i've got for potential designers: faq.rahdo.com :)