Naval Fortress: San Francisco Artillery Corps

[@planetsec9]

That CGI recreation of the gun battery in real-time was insane, it was almost photo-real. Nice to see technology has come along to such a level as that.

[@GeertWilders-dg9ui]

I know right, i think the did a great job making these video's (seeing how little amounts of views the get, i assume it's non-commercial)

[@GeertWilders-dg9ui]

are they going to make new videos for this series?

[@maartenpennings1744]

yea boi

[@williamwormald6463]

Yes amazing

[@callsigntonks4029]

Yeah I thought they were still there when I first watched it

[@ProjectWolve]

That moment when a KZbin channel teaches you more about history than History Channel

[@xeno3029]

or your history class

[@ARescueToaster]

All you need to know is when slavery ended and when women's suffrage occurred!

[@jimcheng5313]

lol no

[@xeno3029]

ARescueToaster when slaver ended: It hasn't When women's suffrage occurred: Oh thats strange they never said anything about that

[@ARescueToaster]

xeno30 Do me a favor and Google "What is a joke?" The punch line being public schools don't teach kids anything important unless it's a race or gender issue. You're correct though, there is still a lot of slavery going on in Africa.

[@Pcwarmachine]

Really well done guys. These deserve to be on History Channel or the like.

[@quinnmarine5731]

Agreed

[@Codyak13]

The modern History Channel doesn't deserve this.

[@monarchtherapsidsinostran9125]

the history channel is literally the last place this belongs. because they would wanna add pawn shop alien lumberjacks.

[@DarkshadowXD63]

+Codyak13 History Channel doesn't exist anymore

[@MrChickennugget360]

in general history, discovery channels suck horribly they are basically unwatchable. don't know how it got to this point.

[@Industryman]

Normally don't watch these extra videos from W.o.W, but this one caught my eye, and loved it! Keep up the Naval Fortress Series!

[@MrChickennugget360]

actually WOWS has some really good programs.

[@junkiexl86]

Thier Naval Legends series is really good as well.

[@cleverusername9369]

WoW makes about the best military documents available these days. Orders of magnitude better than what History is putting out.

[@rubenskiii]

When you find out about this wonderfull series and you remember you live in a very, very small country with an *insane amount of seaforts*. Seriously, The Netherlands has an naval military history wich is maybe only surpassed by the Royal Navy, and we have forts dating from the 17th century, artificial islands of concrete, massive gun turrets of pure hardened steel, atlantikwall bunkers, bunkers disguised as farm houses, radar installations, etc,etc... I mean, once your in the Netherlands you will have a field day... And everything is right next to eachother (from a Russian or American perspective ;) ) We also have 2 of the last ironclad Ramming ships... in almost prestine condition. In Rotterdam they are building an 18th century ship-of-the-line, the "Delft". And other parts of our museum fleet ar now being used in the new movie "Dunkirk"... So in short: You want to see tons of military history...without having to drive for hours and hours? Try the Netherlands!! Sorry for long post, here is an "aardappel". :)

[@rubenskiii]

and when u are here don't forget to hop the channel and vist G.B. Who doens't want an in-debt tour of the Maunsell seaforts? And when you are close to The Netherlands you are close to France... Point Du Hoc...Todt Battery... *Wargaming, you have places to go :P*

[@zurgboy07]

WHO DA FUK CARES

[@gregoryholland6126]

Ruben de Jong Wait. Is does the Dutch word for potato actually mean “hard apple?”

[@cmdrrnjohnriley6246]

@@gregoryholland6126 aard means earth, I believe, so it's 'earth Apple', same as in French

[@thomaszinser8714]

@@cmdrrnjohnriley6246 or same as an archaic term for potato in German.

[@mithikx]

The city of San Francisco had air raid sirens installed in 1942, and those sirens replaced and supplemented with upgraded sirens only a few years ago. If you're ever in San Francisco they test the sirens every Tuesday at noon and they can generally be heard throughout the city.

[@seanahuang7239]

I still questions why they tested so often.

[@Quadrolithium]

@@seanahuang7239 why not? Better be prepared than be caught with your pants down, completely defenseless

[@berdooflyer]

As a 10 year old vacationing in San Francisco in 1978, I was able to make my way into the tunnel systems on both sides of the bridge. It really neat seeing how well it was preserved; especially seeing old hand crank elevators in working order.

[@YukariTsuko]

Time index 10:32 Battery Davis is misplaced. It is located just to the west of the junction of Skyline Blvd and John Muir Drive.

[@shiroyasha4995]

never engaged an enemy... but it is always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it

[@alexlisa9]

Damn, who writes the music for these videos? It's extremely well done

[@PJthePJ]

Harambe, #NotesOutForHarambe , I hate that shit

[@Nutzkie2001]

In addition to Townsley and Davis, there was supposed to be a third battery of 16-inch guns in the San Francisco Defensive Zone. Construction 129 was built into the summit of Hawk Hill, just north of the bridge and occupying the highest point on the Marin Headlands. It was never completed, and thusly never received an official name. But it was nothing short of the zenith point to the evolution of coastal defense fortifications. A top-side commander's cupola... integrated anti-aircraft batteries directly above it... special blast-through tunnels to dissipate the concussion in the event of a direct hit... The thing was a design masterpiece!

[@TheNimshew]

Have you been in the emplacement just north of Steep Ravine?

[@Nutzkie2001]

Perhaps. I've visited most of the batteries in San Francisco and Marin at one time or another. But I'm not familiar with the name "Steep Ravine." Is there a battery name associated with this emplacement? What are some other nearby landmarks?

[@TheNimshew]

@@Nutzkie2001 North of Webb creek.

[@Nutzkie2001]

@@TheNimshew Unfortunately, I haven't been to those bunkers. The skeletal remains of the anti-aircraft battery just above Battery Townsley is as far north as I've explored. Looking them up on the Stinson Beach tourism website, however, makes them appear to be part of a coastal observation post. At one time the complex probably had direct communication lines to nearby artillery units. It likely wasn't an end-line station, which is an integrated part of a battery's fire control system, but it was still a vital part of the overall coastal defense network. I'll need to check them out sometime.

[@parrot849]

Once again, outstanding video Chief! Thank you. I’ve lived in virtually the shadow of these 16 inch battery sites for over 30 years. I never knew the full back-story behind these defense complexes. Your video was a real education. I realize it’s impossible to include all the details of the total Bay Area coastal defensive site locations and their individual functions in a ten minute video. But the full story is very interesting. Not mentioned are the series are the few, still existing, abandoned concrete observation bunkers located up and down the San Francisco Bay Area coast from just north of Santa Cruz in the south to near Bodega Bay north of San Francisco. These remaining small concrete bunkers overlooking the Pacific Ocean were apparently wired for communication into the those 16 inch gun batteries profiled in your video. They functioned as an early warning/targeting source. The range of ongoing opinions from local residents, as well as out-of-area visitors, on what the original purpose of these smaller now unkempt and overgrown defensive structures was when they were first installed many decades ago are so very entertaining, e.g., artillery bunkers, missile launching pads, machine gun nests, Anti-Aircraft guns, etc.

[@shootybaking]

Again, is there moment to teach this? It's interesting, and informative, and tactical, and useful. Whatever your team has going on, it's working.

[@wildonemeister]

Wargaming goes above and beyond on these videos - thanks a lot!

[@folkblues4u]

If this is where my money's going to - producing educational programs on military installations and equipment - i'm MORE THAN HAPPY to put my dollars into it! Reminds me of the history channel programs on war - back when the "history channel" actually did history! EDIT: Btw, this guy is a fantastic presenter! Really hope to see more of him hosting these programs.

[@dfostman6014]

Nicely done. Very easy to explore the entire defensive system, as everything is close together. Even my wife enjoyed it, hiking and wildlife. We were able to stay on the Marin side, which made things easy. many of the batteries were much like the batteries in Panama that I spent time around while in the Army. Not to be missed, thanks for making this video.

[@kimmer6]

That 16'' barrel #386 on display up at Townsley was actually installed on the battleship USS Missouri during the surrender of Japan in Tokyo Bay in 1945. It was removed during the Korean War and was replaced and was stored in Nevada with several other barrels which were sold for scrap. Somebody carefully made sure that the serial number for this barrel never made it to the scrap list.

[@Bfaxi1]

This kind of content is so cool. Thanks Wargaming!

[@Pstephen9]

more video's like this plz. this was awesome. cant wait for another one.

[@MichaelWells770]

I agree, as there are many other harbor defences to made videos on.

[@jsshadow-lurker5152]

You probably won't consider it but could you try and visit Corregidor Island? It has batteries dating back to the Spanish occupation, upgraded during the American occupation, that rained hell against both Allied and Japanese landing parties and even naval ships. They proved critical against landing parties that the only best way to deal with them were either bombers or paratroopers. Not only that, Corregidor also had significant history that you might be interested in!

[@doryfor]

i'm amazed at how much effort you put into this. it would be even greater if you could add subtitles with metric values when you mention sizes in inches, yards and whatnot ;)

[@24Mossberg]

Wonderful report. Glad someone decided to do the research.

[@2serveand2protect]

Never even seen a gun of such a dimension, but it must have been one HELL OF A JOB to man them! Truly impressive!...

[@redklainn1991]

Good video, thanks to wargaming for this well made series...Also...You guys ever tought of buying the history channel and putting your history guys to take it over? i (and the rest of the world) would apreciate to have some historical documentaries on the history channel instead of, you know, aliens.

[@thebigmanstan929]

ALIENS.

[@renniksboi6001]

your pfp, im dead xD

[@Mondo762]

Growing up in Marin I remember exploring these batteries when they were abandoned. Nice to see they have been painted up and opened to the public. These are the fort names on the Marin side: Fort Barry Fort Baker Fort Cronkite San Francisco side: Fort Mason Presidio Fort Scott Fort Funston

[@TheNimshew]

Have you been inside the emplacement north of Steep Ravine? The small one on the edge of the cliff? I used to sleep in there during big storms for fun.

[@Mondo762]

That sounds interesting. I don't recall that particular place.

[@rhonmarmalig8406]

Can you guys do the fort drum and the corregidor island defenses in the philippines?

[@tackyonshaft5456]

Tae sobrang lakas na ng defense natin nyan

[@princehaz3141]

@@tackyonshaft5456 malakas pero hindi enough

[@blade65dagger]

Corregidor did use the same disappearings guns, extensively. but japanese scavengers who turn outs to be military officers later renders the facility conquerable. the above footage action i believe are late corregidor films

[@donalddodson7365]

Fantastic graphics and re-creation images interspersed with historical film footage. Very well done. I hope our own San Diego Fort Rosecrans at Cabrillo National Monument invests in this quality educational materials. Thank you.

[@misinformation_spreader777]

I have actually been to that very battery and a few other scattered around the headlands, I just could not get over the magnificent view of the Pacific ocean

[@mattiasdahlstrom2024]

On a clear day!

[@rajpawar9343]

Very nice and animated guns looks real.

[@peridoodle2644]

There are a few 16 inch batteries just north of San Pedro where the Iowa is docked, not far from an old Nike Missile sight

[@tolson57]

At 10:32 you show Battery Davis at Fort Miley when Battery Davis is actually 4.5 miles south at Fort Funston. Excellent video. Thank you very much.

[@rumanda36]

Brilliant episode with a story many of us aren’t familiar, thanks.

[@JACaplanStudios]

At the mouth of the Columbia River there are batteries like the 16 inch battery. They guard the entrance of that key river to the Rockies. There is one just under the lighthouse. I know because I freehand climbed up the granite face of the inlet, starting at the water, and was surprised to find the structure. Climbing inside and exploring yielded a unique experience. The hardest part of the climb was negotiating the chain link fence that kept people away from the cliff at the lighthouse.. hehe

[@Enterprise1933]

I’ve been on hikes there a couple times and the batteries are super cool to see.

[@aaaht3810]

Good presentation. Very informative. I always thought the disappearing coastal guns were very interesting. So many people are unaware of the coastal defenses on the west coast. The military did not know what the threat was to the west coast at the beginning of WWII. It is a good thing they were not needed.

[@eddiedahle2935]

WOW THE GREATEST TEACHER OF HISTORY. THANKS FOR THE REAL STORY. YOU GUYS AND GALS ARE THE GREATEST.

[@StandWithUkraineAndLiberalism]

James Osborne still works there! It was exactly him who taught me how the disappearing guns work when visited the battery in Summer 2013.

[@warbird3036]

Where I live on the gaspe coast there is 2 naval fortresses like these to destroy German uboats in the Atlantic and they actually set up a big underwater metal fence to not let pass the German uboats and a lot of Canadian destroyers were sunk by German uboats.There is 2cannons per fort one fort is in forioilon national park and the other is at the edge of a golf course you can still visit them but I’m not sure about the one at the golf course but they bearly have changed anything just renovated abit. The ammunition rooms are still there and the cannons are still there and the trenches are also there and the entire thing is there the rooms and everything and it’s the only remaining fort you can visit in Canada I think.Its situated on top of a Clift so it has visual on the entire gulf of Saint Lawrence.

[@jonathonlaws3109]

Very well done work on the little covered Coast Artillery

[@thehoff1793]

Should do Corregidor... That place saw serious combat.. Been there... All still persevered..

[@robertlyon8009]

Hi this was very interesting as my grandfather served in the San Francisco harbor defenses with Hq's battery 6th CA regt., IXth corps in the 1930's.

[@stanleydomalewski8497]

GREAT VIDEO, you folks Always make Excellent Programs !

[@jimsteele4489]

That was FUCKIN FABULOUS!!! Born and raised in The City and pretty knowledgeable about stuff but I got more info from this piece than any I've seen in a long time. Thought when you mentioned the 60's you were gonna talk about the NIKE missle sites at Ft. Ross. That is some more really cool Cold War/costal defence history. Should hella check it out.😉

[@forcemax6947]

Man you channel is insanely good, hope y'all grow more and teach us things like that! 👍

[@Mitchmyoutube]

Pretty crazy. People don't think about defences put up in NA

[@Tclans]

Indeed pretty crazy to think about. New york had a similar defense, not many know that.

[@boblaryson3621]

+James Houston don't worry chinas a few years away from finishing them off

[@JacobA6464]

Bob, I agree.

[@18624100]

Great video mate thanks .

[@tomi_9212]

There was similar coastal artillery system between Porkkala (Finland) and island of Aegna Tallinn (Estonia) 50km31,3ml distance in narrow place on gulf.Although it didn't see battle it was designed for, cause Soviet Union and Estonia made agreement of friendship in 1939. Estonian intelligence service managed use the underwater signal line to report soviet movement. That came to an end when soviet invade Estonia in 1940. 1941 when Germany invade Estonia among others baltic countries retreating soviets blow those fortresses in Estonian side. Finns used their armaments to secure merchant supplies from Germany to aid Finland.

[@chickenpermission]

Please make your own series. I love your historical reviews!

[@robertevans8126]

The other one is/was Battery Davis, down here at Fort Point, it also had 2-16 inch guns

[@chrissnieckus7259]

So what was Fort Funston used for? The bunkers look like 16in gun placements but they looked a little out of the way to the golden gate channel. Just placements that were a little further out or to shoot down towards the Pacifica beach? Edit: for those of you don't know, Fort Funston is the battery emplacement that was the furthest south on the map of this video.

[@ravenwing199]

Chris Snieckus With Northern cliff forts it would have a kill zone.

[@Mondo762]

In 1936-1939 Battery Davis was built at Fort Funston, housing two 16-inch Mark 2 Navy guns

[@WildBillCox13]

Very interesting. I'm glad I clicked on it. Good work, Nick and crew.

[@TheKasperlkopf]

gorgeous video quality, nice cut, love it :D

[@bart1meuz]

I love the documentaries you guys make.

[@edl617]

I been to Fort Monroe in Virginia. Where there was once (I believe) the army coastal artillery school and a coastal battery emplacement

[@jimmogan9626]

Absolutely correct. It was the Coast Artillery School until the Corps was disestablished following World War 2 and CAC regiments were converted to ADA. The Fort Monroe Museum contained quite a lot of CAC memorabilia. Every once in a while, rounds fired in training practice still find up on Buckroe Beach in Hampton, causing EOD to respond.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

Yeah. When I was 8 we lived near an old gun battery emplacement like that for the disappearing guns. My parents kept telling us not to play around there as we could fall down an ammunition hoist shaft. Since there was no power there were no lights. It was fun though. WWII had only been over for about 12 years then and there was a lot about that area concerned with the military. I remember when the movie Sink the Bismarck came out - for the people there - that had been something very real. .

[@sueneilson896]

These defences are far more impressive when seen in reality, as a tourist in my case, than depicted here. Also a must see is the naval monument just south of Baker beach.

[@Tclans]

Please make this a mini series, since there are so much great defenses around San Francisco. Like the numerous military airfields around the city or the more recent Ajax launch sites.

[@dfostman6014]

Forgot to mention, there's a Base End Station South down Highway 1 near the tunnel. Viewable from the road, but too unstable to explore anymore.

[@jimmogan9626]

These are not "Naval Fortresses". They were installations of the US Army Costal Artillery Corps. The Regular Army contingent manning the coastal defenses in San Francisco Bay came from the 6th Coastal Artillery Regiment.

[@patrickwentz8413]

Were there AA batteries close by?

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

Likely... Also NAS Alameda was located nearby. USN and USMC fighter units would be there for air cover.

[@TheNimshew]

About 7 miles north of there, on a bluff north of Webb creek is(or used to be) an abandoned gun emplacement right at the edge of the cliff overlooking highway 1 and the Pacific. There was a curved concrete and iron mantle about 20" long, with a slit in it. The iron door was on the far right and a concrete pedestal about 4" in diameter inside. It was large enough for 4 people to sleep inside. Which my friends and I used to do when big storms were blowing in off the Pacific. It was a blast!(sorry) in 1968/1969. Fond, if blurry memories.

[@Taorakis]

The CGI is very well made, i enjoyed it greatly. One small thing: If you render the gun in together with the smoke, the smoke needs to go over the gun as well, it sticks out the way it is. ;)

[@Urbicide]

Good points made. Also, the muzzle blast would have been extremely intense. The 16" rifles were the same as used on the more modern American battleships of that era, such as the Missouri, Wisconsin, & New Jersey. They were always fired over the sides of the ships, instead of directly over the decks, as in shooting directly straight ahead or directly facing aft. To fire them over the decks would destroy equipment mounted onto the decks and/or blow it overboard. I wonder how much dirt & vegetation would have been kicked up during firing of the SF batteries?

[@vic-sl1jw]

Nice Video about the naval fortress. very informative. Can you do a naval fortress episode of Corregidor Island.

[@Ed-pn9id]

excellent video! Your graphics and people are very top notch.

[@Opus009]

*4:37** if any of you guys know the music,please tell me,the name of it,and the one who made it,its all i need*

[@ralphhitchensjr.9633]

I live in delaware and we have our own coastal fortress called Fort Miles, in Lewes Delaware. Look it up!

[@haydenbliesner2247]

Hope you guys cover Fort Stevens at some point. As far as I am aware. it was the only position attacked by the an enemy during WW2. A pair of Japanese subs surfaced and shelled the fort. Although they were naturally forced to retreat.

[@rdbjrseattle]

I visited this Battery and Battery Richmond P Davis, about 8.5 miles south along the San Francisco peninsula. Some of the tunnels are blocked now.

[@michaelwoll9349]

Very Cool... Production was Fantastic. BTW, I love World of Warships as well. 😎

[@junkiexl86]

Are most of these sites open to the public? I was in San Fran not long ago. I didn't hear one mention of these. Would have loved to visit these sites....

[@RedXlV]

Do one of these for Fort Drum in Manila Bay. That's a truly amazing example of a naval fortress, where an entire small island was leveled and turned into a concrete battleship, complete with battleship-style turrets and one of the lattice masts that were standard on American battleships at the time. The mast is long gone, but the turrets are still there to this day.

[@jimmogan9626]

FYSA. Fort Drum was not a Naval Fortress. It was a US Army Coast Artillery Corps installation, manned by 2nd Battalion 59th Coast Artillery Regiment (now 59th Air Defense Artillery Regiment.). They fired their last rounds minutes before the surrender by LTG Wainwright went into effect, ordered by the Bn Cdr to drain drained the recuperating tubes for the guns drained before firing, ensuring the mounts were wrecked beyond repair, unusable by the Japanese.

[@Thegamer-rr7gk]

Too long.

[@hckyrules]

I guess this is the new History Channel now!

[@christopherphillips1805]

Really loved this video. Would love to see more about shore side defenses

[@adamskinner5868]

that was great as were the Ranger guys thanks and please do lots more like this I really enjoyed it.

[@reecearnold4195]

Could you do a video about the naval battery Pensacola, Florida

[@austincarter4682]

Such a great series love to see war gaming doing this. Ive really learned a lot from these videos!

[@timothyboles6457]

There was a 12" twin gun battery below and to the north of the 16" guns, and a 2nd 16" battery that was never armed or named above it

[@bestswimmer1]

Awesome! You guys should do one on the Triangle of Fire in Puget Sound, WA

[@theronnelson3617]

Yeah they have a gun turret at the mouth of Newport Beach Harbor as well similar thing in Malibu Point Dume Mountain has a flat bulldozed flat area for a large gun to be placed there during World War II

[@disqualifiedqq]

Battery Spencer is one of them and the best spot to get pictures of the Golden Gate from Marin side. Wargaming, y'all should head out to Unalaska and check out the military artifacts there.

[@RonaldRol]

Nice history lesson! Thanks! Keep up the good work!

[@thomaslockard9686]

Very nice and interesting film. Also nice to have an operational gun mount at Chamberlin, although the mount and the rifle needs serious work before it becomes totally unserviceable as a demonstration piece.

[@Zeynep-pe5yo]

@World Of Warships Official Channel do Fort Rodd hill, Victoria, BC, Canada. It was used during WWII as well, by the Canadians.

[@StormLaker]

Thankfully we never had to actually put these to use. Though I am certain both German and Japanese Navy's had scoped out our coastlines looking for weak points.

[@Hakumai_o7]

This was really interesting considering I came here wanting ships. While we still need some Naval Legends on Missouri, Wiscy, and Bismarck, more of these wouldn't hurt. I mean ones like the Yamato episode must e hard because of full CG rendering, so real ships help, but more of these fortress ones would be nice in between and such

[@bennjo1728]

Nagato needs more love. It would make an interesting Naval Legends video as she had quite a unique fate.

[@Hakumai_o7]

Benjamin Nope I read a book about the ships that were sunk at Bikini.....broke my heart how they treated Nagato there. Even Prinz Eugen, a Nazi ship who was also sunk received better treatment. She would've made for one of the coolest museum ships ever

[@MrChickennugget360]

not really. preserving ships as museums is a relatively modern thing. had they not been expended as targets they would be scrap metal.

[@shootybaking]

How do I say this correctly. You made this place attractive again, in a video game sense. It's a filming location. It's odd, I cannot find a video about this place anywhere else, unless I want to buy it.

[@davesolo3781]

Good Job WG..Please keep making videos like this

[@arthurkorff]

thanks for posting

[@tedmiles2110]

I have visiteed Battery Chamberlin and watched them demonstrate the six-inch disappearing gun. I have also been to Fort Warden in Washington and seen the 16-inch disappearing guns from Coregodor, Phillipines Islands. Great Artifacts!

[@enriquelaroche5370]

These Batteries were my childhood playground. mid 60'd

[@Sgt.Rafael-kl8bu]

Wow nice impressed

[@BWIENS789]

Good video. Thanks for showing it.

[@josephksnider]

Keep up the amazing work!

[@pieshka4509]

"Just watch what happens when I pull this chain." jumps the footage all over the place and shows half a second of what he was demonstrating. Still a neat video though

[@RadioactiveSaddam]

Nice video, great job 👍 you should visit the fortresses of Sweden too.

[@leaf8096]

atlantic wall next pls

[@DaGoodmanYT]

very nice job... going to have to visit there soon

[@mylove963]

awesome music! where can i dowload it?

[@fieldmarshaldoge7598]

Is this site open to the public?

[@mithikx]

I think so, at least some of them are I haven't been out to those parks in years though. Most if not all of the sites fall under the Golden Gate National Recreation Area or some similar park organization so the NPS.gov website should have some information on hours. Battery Townsley is open the first Sunday of each month from noon to 4PM and it's about a 40-50 minute walk from Fort Cronkhite. I have not been there before but I have visited Battery Davis in Fort Funston which I believe is open during the day (it's basically a beach/park). There's also a Cold War Nike missile site (Nike Missile Site SF-88) open Thursday through Saturday at I think 1PM - 3PM (?) complete with numerous MIM-14 Nike-Hercules (museum displays of course) as well as other version of the Nike IIRC.

[@hardys1664]

That graphics recreation is so real that it confuses if it was actually there!!! This stuff should be on History channel where some stupid garage auction programs are wasting time!