Necromancy - Can Good Folk Cast Evil Magic? | D&D 5e | Grim Hollow | DnD | TTRPG | Ben Byrne

[@tthrack1432]

Maybe the Greek gods didn't intend for Asclepius to have the power of resurrection, but they also didn't intend for people to have fire. The Greek gods aren't really "good" people. You've been hanging out with Inquisitors too long. It is fun to see you two go at this from different sides.

[@johnpotts8308]

The Greek Gods are really just a bunch of teenagers with superpowers. Most of the time they use their divine powers, it's to abduct women (and occasionally men) they fancied.

[@kythian]

@@johnpotts8308 And smite those that injured their fragile egos. :D

[@GreyfauxxGaming]

This. Most often if you angered the gods, you were prob doing something right.

[@amehayami934]

Yes yhe gods all powerful, all knowing Zeus:"oops they know about fire now didn't mean for that to happen, sure could have never given the ability to creat fire in the first place but oops to late, looks like we are powerless to do anything about it." 😂 Also Zeus: "oh she's hot I want to bang her! And I will!"😂 That's the problem with gods even the D&D gods they're so contradictory. They don't want us to do a thing but give us the ability to do that thing? Tell me has anyone told a kid not to play with a gun and at the same time given that kid a gun? I'm begging to think that the way most mortals think is in 5 word sentences or a paragraph at most. Lol well apparently even the gods think the same way. But thanks it does help. See I have 2 sets of Deities the Over Deities that I call Entities, and the gods. The Entities: doesn't need worshippers, they look at them as their children, "could you imagine your mom or dad telling you to worship them?" Or maybe your parents does tell you that. But they don't they give ability to their followers so they can help each other and others. And in the end They will have a choice between 3 places to go. They can be at rest for as long as they want the can go to they good afterlife where everyone goes (think of it as a town square where you can see and be with all your loved ones, but not really a town square) yes even Atheist can go here. Choice 2 you can go to your Deities realm and stay there and also visit your family. And the last choice you can be reborn. The best thing about my world is me!😊 the Entity of all Entities. The creator of all things. The Somewhat benevolent...OK maybe some times not so benevolent. Deity that isn't wanting to destroy and torture my creations. Besides I'm an artist I look at my art as mumy children. The Entities was the first teacher, And the guardian/creator races the ones the they taught is to teach the Mortals. How is this a dark fantasy? Well there is one thing that is good about me that can backfire. I believe in freedom and people make choices. I also give anyone part of my world to become a God, even ro because an Entity. Of corse there is a correct path to take. Anyone can become a God. There is false God's the gods that needs to be worships, in order to gain power and to live. That is done by an Eldrech horror by making a deal with them it takes you're soul as payment. It gains it's power by making them into gods, to lead others to fallow them into his realm which is made up of all the other false God's. 😈 And theos who believe in the gods has to make a choice. See the problem is whatever they believe about their religion is real. Meaning they if they believe that everyone is going to hell and there is nothing else that's where they're going to go. Hell/Heaven either way it's in Saklas Realm😈 the Eldrech horror I was speaking of. And it give them power. To some they know them as "the Father of Lies" "the great corrupter" 😈 Any religion that depends on worshippers is part of his realm. The people the Entities send out to teach the right path tends to be fey , Magic user's and Strangely enough anyone else that most would consider untrustworthy at best or evil at worst. How ever the mortal has to choose. It's better to be Atheist in my world and not fallow any Deity. Because I don't punish for disbelief. Then it is to fallow a deity that will feed off of your soul. Oh btw my Entity of Magic he doesn't care about Necromancy just more on how it's used.

[@MonarchsFactory]

EXCUSE me!??

[@MonarchsFactory]

I'm only 2 minutes in, already so full of lies

[@minimoose7890]

So many statements that sound like falsehoods, but Ben is an honourable man.

[@doxkowalski915]

​@@MonarchsFactoryIt's very Roman of Ben to attempt to use necromancy to discredit you by association. The Brutus clip is becoming more relevant by the video.

[@Deathven1482]

I know right? The slander!

[@KBTibbs]

>A Healer has no power over the dead only the living... A surgeon can stitch Flash and set >bone which regrow and mend themselves over time. Dead muscles and bones do not heal >they simply rot and dry even if stitched back together. Dael, please introduce Ben to a simple Swiss -Patent Clerk- Scientist called Frankenstein.

[@Miscast]

The production quality here is wild and I love it but it does make me root for Dael as an underdog with her unchanged bookshelf background of 10 years. Kinda a flex. Ben is totally right though but I'm cheering for a Dael comeback.

[@haydentempest3874]

Love that this rivalry is going to the next level 😂

[@Sum1othrThanU]

These videos are so much fun...lol. I hope the rivalry between friends continues. Great spoof reply video content lol!!

[@SandyTaylor-tv6fc]

7:37 The Ancient Greeks did not consider a hero as someone good but someone capable of great deeds

[@GhostfireGaming]

True! Something I originally had in my script was that being a Greek hero doesn't make Odysseus automatically virtuous, in contrast to how we might understand the term "hero" or to do something "heroic" today. It got cut for time.

[@SandyTaylor-tv6fc]

That's a shame. It would have been interesting​@@GhostfireGaming

[@bowenmadden6122]

"Those sheep had families, Dael!!" 😂

[@dyykaacovers]

What is this? A crossover episode?!?!

[@ingridplata2411]

I started playing with 3.5e so I always think of healing in schools in that sense. Also: Ben's Witcher Watch

[@Cthucal]

Ben Byrne is a honourableman. Filled with good intentions, but does this road realy lead to a different path? We all know what a path paved with good intentions leads to! :P

[@FablesD20]

love both sides of the debate! Great pointers.

[@quincykunz3481]

I like breaking down necromancy into types based on the consent level of the subject. Pneumamancers (Mages of breath) are mediums and ancestral shamans, working in cooperation of the will of the dead, giving them a positive connotation. Osseomancers (Mages of bone) use the residue of the soul that clings to remains to create efficient constructs out of dead material, typically being grisly but neutral pragmatists. Thanaturges (Workers of death) manipulate the souls of the living AND dead to control, enslave, or imprison, making it the most heinous and mistrusted form of magic and bends toward evil.

[@Putrefax]

If you've listened to the Dark Dice podcast, one of the characters has a magic item that lets him cast Speak with Dead that has my favourite interpretation of the spell. The spirit is ripped back into their body and experiences ungodly suffering agony until the spell is completed, literally tortured into answering the questions and filling any empty air the party takes by thinking of further questions with screaming and begging to go back to the beyond. Only this character knew this and when it gets brought up for the rest of the party to witness for the first time, ooh boy. Big yikes.

[@TonyRobetson]

i think you hit upon the right answer, necromancy being evil depends on the setting. like in the main dnd setting it's using Evil energy to create Evil creatures and in another setting it might be elves using unaligned magic to become undead guardians of their people.

[@matthijsclaessen8152]

In my (non-DnD) campaign I recognize White Necromancy (for healing) and Dark Necromancy (for death and undead). Communication with spirits is a grey area… The Dark stuff is considered evil in most (but not all) soceities in my worlds.

[@BriefcaseBrown]

Really well done on this one team! Production values, editing and the script were absolutely on point :D

[@dreadmorg]

WOA. Someone super-upped their video making mojo since I was here last! What a gorgeous video! And also, Necromancy is evil.

[@OstravaTheBrave]

i need these two to keep going back and forth

[@minimoose7890]

The position of Ben might sound very prejudiced and defined by such bias, but Ben is an honourable man. Does Ben know what the properly human and lore-themed tone about necromancy is? No. Dael does. But Ben is an honourable man.

[@vincentwinqvist4023]

I'm here for this KZbin feud. XD

[@andrewhalverson6974]

You convinced me. Resurrection is limited to life and grave domains, or must be earned by a divine quest.

[@elsewhereprince3969]

One of my favorite depictions of undeath is in the anime The Faraway Paladin. The god of undeath is known as Stagnation. Indeed that is what undeath is: stopping the flow of life and death. This stagnation is of course why it is refiled by those who look over and maintain the flow of life and death. One of the most interesting things of this stagnation is that once one becomes undead they cannot grow. A hero that became an undead with remain just as strong as the hero was. The hero will never get any weaker but also the hero will never get any stronger as well. They have stagnated.

[@Frederic_S]

The production value of this video is very impressive 👍

[@ryanhau1073]

I would say in a DnD setting, it would be ok to have a Necromancher as an Ends Justify the Means Anti-Hero

[@adrianogoulart6096]

Doesn't need a fancy name like "Clemency", just call it "Healing" school of magic. Loving the friendly dispute between you two. But I have to say that I lean more to Ben side.

[@exomancer3632]

The fancy name is like, the entire point of spell schools. Cause it sure ain't delineation of capabilities, or even accurate description of the magic cast.

[@tyscribz874]

sitting backwards in the char has such "Hello fellow necromancers" energy

[@chrisragner3882]

You speak like a fellow Lutheran! I love the Clemency School. Having held off considering all these, I remember (I believe it was you Ben) it mentioned of an angel as an old hermit on a mountain top able to raise the dead. I like never having a mortal being allowed such power. It also limits the means by which one can seek it. Side note: I love the Aetherial Expanse! I must join. Thank you for all you bring to the game.

[@sweetderpg]

you had me at IS Dael evil?! oh mighty clickbait :rofl:

[@GhostfireGaming]

It was place holder text originally, but made me laugh so much I left it. 😂

[@Yabuturtle]

They definitely can. Like with Oathbreaker Paladins. Although it says that you need to be evil to become one, it doesn't say you have to stay evil after you become an Oathbreaker.

[@jarydf]

Context is king. Intent and application are key to whether it is good, neutral or evil.

[@sainttan]

I really want to be a good guy necromancer, not like a saint good, but mostly using to create a unit of undead warriors to protect me and my party. Also limiting to using none humanoids... Unless they're villains, like assassins, drows under Lloth, bandits, pyschos, cults, cannibals, and social media commentators.

[@kythian]

In a RAW (Rules As Written) game of D&D (3rd Ed. or later), there is nothing inherently "evil" about the school of Necromancy. But that just provides us with brain-fuel to make our own home-brew rules!

[@josephine4s]

I loved her video. I LOVE how you framed this as if it’s a nasty political response 🤣

[@foxross]

I love the playful sarcasm, still wrong though. 😅

[@scootinkermie]

I mean people used to just call apon ancestors and thats necromancy to me, I personally think that perverting something that could be a good thing and thus making everyone turn against it is a fun way to go about it, your pc's can come across like a old lady just summoning their ancestor for a talk and a meal and they have to decide if everything they've been told is true and thus the lady deserves a punishment or perhaps small acts of necromancy is fine, again though it depends on what feelings you're looking for

[@barcodedm]

For resurrection spells, I just change the school based on what kind of caster is casting it. Arcane and Occult (or Primal, in 5.5e terms) casters are considered to be using necromancy, while Divine resurrections are considered to be school-less. For healing spells, I just think transmutation makes the most sense. The school is full of spells that manipulate organic and inorganic matter so I don't see how this is much different. Though with my setting I'm moving towards a model where schools are defined more by the laws of magic and methods of how you tap into it, while a 'branch' of magic (which could span multiple schools) is where spells are sorted by the types of effects. So I've done a lot of shuffling of spell schools to reflect that.

[@SnoDog2112]

Coming up from the very beginnings of D&D, to me the healing spells are doing what Ben presents they are speeding up the natural healing process. To me, this is an alteration. Time and healing speed are being altered. Transmutation rings more of changing the substance. IE changing lead into gold. You are transmuting the substance. Just my 2 cp. You have a good train of thought, just wanted to add mine.

[@doxkowalski915]

What if the divine resurrection was caused by powers granted by a god of necromancy like Myrkul, or Vecna? I don't wish to "correct" your own interpretation, it's just curious that if gods are a part of this world order enough to represent it's magical domains, then why wouldn't their lesser gifts also adhere to the rules of magic everyone follows?

[@barcodedm]

@@doxkowalski915 in my setting, they might call that Profane (or Dark/Black) Magic and technically is Necromancy. I do blur the use of schools in a mechanical sense with schools in a setting lore/laws of magic sense. The two methods of pulling raw energy from its source and shaping it into a spell are 1) a funnel-like process where you pull the energy through a pinpoint, which is very controlled and manageable, and 2) violent outward burst that forces energy through planar barriers where it is then shaped, which is very chaotic and requires an anchor to reign it all back in. It just so happens that the soul is a natural magnet that works like an anchor for the latter process, but routing magical energy through your soul will erode it over time. That effects how a soul is judged in the afterlife. The first method reflects how the good and neutral gods operate, while the second method reflects the nature of the evil gods. So yes, an evil cleric performing a resurrection is technically doing Necromancy. (Assuming that the power for that particular casting is coming from an evil god. In my setting, gods powering divine casters will get hot-swapped based on whether the action aligns with a particular god's goals. Clerics often receive power from gods that they aren't trying to venerate, unbeknownst to them. The gods aren't vain, they don't care, they just want to influence the universe according to their core desires)

[@aaronapley258]

Enchantment is the Truest Evil Magic, you can't convince me otherwise

[@ToriKamal]

I still don't understand why necromancy is considered evil, but melting someone to ashes with a fireball is considered good.

[@TheKazragore]

What I like about Dael's perspective is that speaks to my proclivity for making trope bending or counter-stereotype characters. To upend expectations. Necromancy being depicted as a medical profession is, to me, something that could be straight from Discworld. I like weird. Good necromancy is weird. Playing necromancy as just another tool vs as an act of evil bastardry is something I find interesting.

[@josephine4s]

I’m thinking of War Breaker by Sanderson where they have the Lifeless. They are undead automotons, and adherents of Austrian see them as vile abominations. For those who follow the religion of The Iridescent Tones, however, the Lifeless are just another tool-though one that most can’t afford.

[@Shovel_Cat]

I mean, medically we are getting better and better at reviving the dead longer and linger after they’ve died. 🤷‍♂️

[@ingridplata2411]

I was just thinking of that. Is using a defibrillator necromancy?

[@questionswithbaldbryce5626]

Maybe Healing Word should be an enchantment spell? Pep-talk someone into staying on their feet and fighting some more?

[@ceu6807]

NERD FIGHT 🔥🔥🔥

[@josephfernandez8015]

To me, necromancy only crosses into the realm of explicitly evil if it either kills/harms something that’s alive or messes with a being’s soul in some way without their consent. What’s inherently evil about animating a corpse, for example?

[@DimaJeydar]

14:53 a clip from Heroes VI? A game that introduces a whole bunch of (arguably) good necromancers? And yet not a word about them in this video. Interesting 🤔

[@tjrooger1092]

There's definitely a spiritual component. The resurrection type spells specifically state a willing soul. Like, there's a distasteful aspect to Animate Dead, but it's essentially a simpler version of Animate Objects (3v5) There's no real soul interaction. Edit: also more than likely Deal is in fact evil, Ldo.

[@Yarradras]

There is a big difference though if you resurrect someone with their consent (the soul is willing to return) and give them back their body and the choice to do whatever they want. OR if you raise them if they want or as mindless zombies with rotting flesh intent of eating any brains they can find.

[@KBTibbs]

> ... the apostles were uniquely holy individuals who were chosen by a literal incarnation of God on Earth ... Ben, you're extrapolating a lot of lore here. RAW, the Bible only discusses how Simon, Andrew, James, John and Matthias became disciples. That's barely half and none are described in core rulebooks as particularly holy. (I am not counting various Christian splat books or Papal homebrew for obvious power creep reasons as well as poorly documented erata.) The first four had the "Fisher" background from Ghosts of Saltmarsh and were called by Jesus. Matthias got the highest initiative on the die roll after Judas failed his third death saving throw. What classes boost initiative? Barbarian gets advantage, Bards get a "Jack of All Trades" bonus, and Gloomstalker Rangers get a wisdom bonus. Do clerics?

[@dannyleo5787]

When it comes to resurrections, as a dm, it is allowed but at a cost. Sometimes it can be physical from how one died. Other times can be mentally or spiritually. As for good people using spells, yes easily but it comes down to settings. 1. ) the nature of why the spell is needed. 2. ) is the caster willing to accept consequences should it go awry or potentially change the story going forward. 3. ) their are no real good or bads, for it’s how best it is used in a life or death situation. Lichdom for example, yes in a good sense he will remain with you for the rest of your life past the campaign but the bad news is he will outlive cause his soul is contained and cannot move on to the life after and… isolation can do horrible things to a hero that dims overtime. “ 4. ) is it worth knowing the spell at all?

[@gystes_]

When your so wrong about something you have to make a new school of magic just to be right.

[@myname5864]

13:16 hey! You said that necromancy was magic that only affected the dead! Life-draining magic doesn't affect corpses or spirits at all!

[@SnoDog2112]

@Ben, do you have a list of the new School of Clemency? I would like to look at it. The campaign I am making is going to have heavy overtones of dark fantasy and I am importing a fair amount of Grim Hollow flavor, and I would like to review they rules for this school. TY in advance. A PDF or pamphlet may be a useful way of presenting this too. Just a thought.

[@gilliganIII]

I put it it to you that healing magic should not harm the undead, but instead transform or return them to their original form. A partial healing might look like parts of the creature becoming healthy next to and inbetween the rotting or missing flesh. Imagine the staggering blow being dealt to a skeleton army as half of them regain their mortal form and abandon their former master. This would lead to Necromancer armies being incredibly rare unless the Wizard was allied with that army in life.

[@doxkowalski915]

Sound cool and would be an interesting power for one very powerful character, and nobody else. Because healing is pushing away death, and undead are by definition not dead, so it shouldn't do anything to them.

[@beartygerevillaugh9418]

necromancy in and of it self is a neutral magic yes you have to sacrifice to work this magic in most legend but that's because its about balance life for death and the reverse (edit) and the ability to push toward death or push it away thats why cure wounds should be a necromancy art

[@zacharyfranklin1535]

I do think necromancy not inherently being evil does not make it non-dark fantasy. (Yes I’m late but hey-ho)- your mention of “is it a god or an archdemon whispering in their ear?” Can be a good plot device and a matter of conflict between your character and the religious institutions at work. Or perhaps you can look towards two examples from dark souls, probably the franchise my mind goes to when thinking of dark fantasy. You have servants of Nito using death magic to enact his will. Contrary to that you have Gwyn, the lord of sunlight- and the existential questions the plot asks of you when discussing him- his actions resulted in the undead curse, was he right to do so? Is this intentional and is the undead curse actually a blessing? Or is he a sign that the gods desire solely to shackle humanity and so what they consider good acts and good schools of magic may not be the correct path for helping your people advance.

[@DarkWanderer149]

Honestly, some of these comments that say "if the gods say not to cast X spells then why can people still cast them anyways" are probably not considering that is most settings there's a god of magic that probably superseds what the other gods say involving magic, and most usually the god of magic is True Neutral so they let anyone cast anything. The other gods in this are simply applying taboos onto their worshipers about what spells they shouldn't cast because it goes against whichever god's sensibilities. Gods of Death or Undeath would love it when you cast certain necromantic spells in this case.

[@lizrdgizrd]

I'm starting to think you guys aren't actually fighting. It's almost like you're trying to give us interesting ideas of how to include necromancers in our campaigns. 🤔

[@debarberach]

Okay at best from what i take away from this is necromancy is as good as the people weilding it. However I raise another school of magic as a always evil school. Enchantment. It always removes the agency and free will of another.

[@trueseeker5]

No. Dael vs Evil!

[@Frosty7575]

Is necromancy evil because it is the gods forbid it or do the gods forbid because it is evil? If the former who are the gods to deny us yet another power they hold themselves (we all remember that issue with the fire is?) and if the later way du we need the gods to forbid it if it is so obviously evil?

[@gabbypie64]

I greatly prefer necromancy to by its nature equal parts good as bad its more so how do you use the power can it heal the sick and infirm yes, can it also trap souls into ethereal servitude also yes, it can creatue weaker souless undead yes and undead with stronger undeath with trapped souls

[@andrewholland2763]

Resurrection has unseen consequences. You are pulling the creatures soul from where they have been. You could be pulling them from one of the heavens where they know bliss, so now every waking moment on the material plane is hell. Or you could be pulling them from a hell/the abyss and dow the devils/demons are seeking the soul that was stolen from them back.

[@eojretfits]

Pathfinder 2e has entered chat 😅

[@sykune]

Yet healing spells used to be in the school of necromancy

[@gopro_audio]

Its this simple kids, RPGs have books of do's. If your table does not like the rules change them. Its that simple. No debate needed.

[@thenerdd7112]

This isn’t a rule conversation, it’s a tone and theme conversation. “Do whatever you want, it’s your game” adds nothing to this, nor most, RPG conversations.

[@ethanbest9110]

The great thing about D&D is that if the gods disagree with you, you can just remove them from their holy thrones and liberate the universe from their false morality. Problem solved, Necromancy is good.

[@LumenFox777]

I will counter your healing magic argument that with D&D it defines Necromancy as the school of magic in which has power over the forces of *life* and death which causing wounds to heal rapidly would be control over the forces of life. Older editions of D&D Cure Wounds was a Necromancy spell. I think the better distinction is actually from your argument around resurrection is more applicable as the only arcane caster that is a healer is Bard. Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and Ranger are all Divine casters.

[@OMGSAMCOPSEY]

Recycle, Reuse, Reanimate.

[@richardjessiejohnson9108]

yea bud, here's a different take... the Americas have tons of references to the divinity of the dead and connections to the spirit world throughout the many 1st nations. very few things are evil, it is the balance or lack there of that is important. you're also assuming that they (the dead) are resting, who's to say they aren't on a different journey/sojourn or happy to comeback and lend aid to their loved ones? I think homie just wants it to be evil, and that okay, but it isn't innately evil. Enchantment however...youre taking away someones free will, even a cantrip like friends is manipulative at best.

[@doxkowalski915]

It depends on the setting. 5e deems the creation of undead an evil act, but all that needs to be done to fix it is changing that one statement. Who's to say that devoting your corpse to helping the city/nation of your descendants is an evil act if it's legalized and performed with appropriate hygiene, care, and dignity? On the other hand, as you said, enchantment doesn't really have many redeeming qualities unless you strictly use it to make monsters exterminate themselves to not endanger people who would normally need to hunt them.

[@richardjessiejohnson9108]

@@doxkowalski915 well said

[@vaxildagger]

Wasn’t cure wounds a necromancy spell in older D&D editions?

[@austinsebben1402]

Now, hang on, a lot of necromancy doesn’t even necessarily have anything to do with souls at all, and as for “letting the dead rest” in the afterlife they “deserve”, every soul allowed to arrive in the Hells and Abyss adds to the power the devils and demons have to do evil acts AND creates more devils and demons, so let me spin the chessboard of morality around and say it’s more evil NOT to steal souls from the afterlife just so you can feel self-righteous about them getting tortured when their suffering adds to the collective harm the evil gods and fiends can do with the collected power of the souls

[@doxkowalski915]

I use this argument for my science fantasy setting in which the angel worshipping religion seals the criminals' souls into weapons to have them "redeem" their doings in the hands of a righteous warrior. Denying the enemy the resources, and getting a magic weapon, win-win.

[@sambro6657]

Ok Ben Look I like you I do your a nice guy Necromancy doesn’t have access to any healing magic because traditionally in d and d wizards aren’t given the ability to heal ok? From a mechanical standpoint there is no reason as wizard or a necromancer shouldn’t be able to use some healing magic and from a thematic standpoint I point you to the ebberon setting for a d and d cannon example of necromancers that should have access to healing being the elves of karnath every dm has the right to there opinion and rules for there campaign world but arguing that the school of magic given spells in 5e fall into Match the definition of the spell casting schools referring back to wizard is inaccurate. For example the definition of necromancy in 5e is it is the magic to manipulate life and death both sides of a very different coin and that is why rightly so a lot of people agree necromancy should be able to heal a little bit. Loved the video and love grimhollow the ghost fire team does amazing work.

[@badmojo0777]

Clerics perform resurrection with a GOds divine approval.. WIZARDS and arcane magic DO NOT! thatsa the difference :D

[@doxkowalski915]

Were you bullied by a necromancer at some point? Or maybe sustained some trauma? You seem so insistent to deconstruct any and all grey areas of necromancy even the Speak With Dead, which is inspired by the most harmless and actually helpful historical necromantic ability, to lay spirits to rest by learning what disturbed them.

[@levifjellman6378]

Weekly Witcher Watch came early this week. Also; Dael did a better job with a lower budget.

[@Will-Woll]

Aetherial Expanse: Sponsored, Affiliated, Owner? Or just a free shout out of something you're excited about? Unclear just from the video and description. Would appreciate clarification.

[@KBTibbs]

The Aetherial Expanse is published by Ghostfire Gaming. This channel is the Ghostfire Gaming channel.

[@wbbartlett]

Weren't the apostles just gullible cult members?

[@aodhfyn2429]

Eh. Not convinced. This is a very Middle Ages Christianity take on Necromancy. Also, just stick with Restoration. Clemency sounds too... well, Middle Ages Christianity. I guess if you are sticking with a very Middle Ages European setting, this is a fine take on Necromancy. But in any other setting, I find it weird and restrictive.

[@johnfielder2064]

in myth necromancy is the ability to talk to the dead, its got nothing to with raising the dead or undead, so if you take that approach then necromancy is not evil, but you could have then two sides one good and one that perverses necromancy allowing evil side to it

[@amehayami934]

See once again contradictions. "We are to worship the gods, because they are powerful and control our fate!" If the gods are so powerful can they just not let us use restrictions spells? Mystra took away the ability to do high magic but not restrictions spell? And we deem it evil? So many spells that can bring death and with some players death to many innocent people because they're careless with how they use it. But that's not evil? Put yourself in their shoes for a minute? PCs walk into your town they get into a fight, you hear someone yell "FIRE BALL!" And you see a big explosion and you see some peiple caught in that explosion and notice a few buildings was destroyed and one of theos builds was your home and you mom and little sister was there you rush back your house is on fire you see your mom trapped she tells you to for get about her and find your sister. So you do and you find her, the fire is spreading fast you can't check if she is alive right now, you grab her and run out with her. You look back and see you home engulfed in flame and you hear you mom screaming as she is probably being burnd alive. You check to see if your little sister is alive, but find out she is dead? But you have the power to resorect her, do you? Are you evil if you do? It's funny in how one video Where you talk about if Alignment is necessary and I agree with you on that. Then turn around and make a hardline between Good and evil. Oh sweety if you really need to make something blasphemous in order to evoke horror, I might have to questions about your skills on evoking horror. In a dark fantasy almost anything can be considered blasphemous when your life or someone's life depends on it? In a dark fantasy almost everything you do van be a moral dilemma. Even when it is a hard good or evil you still might have to do something that's considered evil for the greater good. Wait is it just us girl's that is defending Necromancy? 😆

[@Cbev1994]

Very disappointed in the way dale tries to justify a clearly profane act in the hands of humans and humans alone. Idk if dale is religious or not(probably not) but hearing her say all these things feels really offensive and made my heart hurt

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

i highly disagree that create Unlife should have the power to create Liches and that simular type of Undead. Lichdom should be a Necromancers Magnum Opus, a Concius choise and the ultimate act of depravity and megalomaniac

[@bergy4958]

Don't cast spells that have an effect on souls or desecrates bodies in any way shape of form. You end up with a deadly and effetive scary set of spells Because incinerating enemies with fire is morally superior to necromantic effects... Sure.

[@JR-ld2xx]

Ben. There's more to this "debate". Come on, and be a manly man. You really like her. One thing more. She's smart, and knows what she's talking about. 😀

[@meghankrause2037]

Lol this is dumb. She was right. You are wrong. Healing is fine as it is in DND and necromancy is naturally more appealing to corrupt characters, but is not inherently evil.

[@prestidigitization]

Arguing semantics progresses the discourse very little.

[@IrisDImtv]

With the skyrim reference you lost me. Worse adaptation of magic in the Elder Scrolls saga xD

[@SilverishKitten]

"i don't like this spell that pretty much counters all my arguments, so let's move this spell to blood magic instead" 🤪 what a purist piece of garbage lol.