TLEILAXU vs. BENE GESSERIT | The Shadow War Begins | DUNE Prophecy Theory

[@NerdCookies]

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[@the1tigglet]

The real question is do these cookies really taste like Nerds?! And if so what kind of nerds?

[@ewarrior9776]

In order for general audience to understand Dune Messiah, the second season of Dune Prophecy need to explain the Bene Tleilax and the Guild Navagators. So I hope it comes out before the movie.

[@didamnesia3575]

Na, they can read the books 😆

[@track1949]

Read the books, jfc.

[@Hi-pl5rx]

I disagree. Show isnt nearly popular enough. So Denis will have to explain why they’re so important himself. Plus i hate when movies rely on tv series to explain context for them

[@InkubusGames]

I still don't understand why insisting so much on the "Desmond survived sand worm and being recovered"? Could it be that he was just captured and this story with the sand worm is just a cover story for the emperor to see. In a world of scheming, this is not far fetched.

[@omnigar9611]

I just love your voice. I could listen to you read an encyclopedia.

[@clintconley8361]

Her voice is what got me hooked on her channel too. Cookie knows her stuff and love to hear her tell me stories.

[@TheErsdot]

I also believe the Tleillaxu created Desmond Hart. They certainly have the means, motive, and opportunity. There just aren't a lot of other groups capable of doing this.

[@prplhze2000]

They would have no qualms about messing with forbidden technology

[@ardoRic]

I simply cannot get behind the Demond Hart ghola theory. One of the major plot points in Dune is that the ghola that is presented to Paul Atreides is the first one to be able to recover his memories and that paves the way for a procedure of sorts for future gholas. Having a random ghola 10k years in the past that simply has the memories of Desmond Hart (he remembers being a Bene Gesserit orphan, and means what he said as was confirmed by Reverend Mother truthsaying). I also want to see more Tleilaxu brought to life cause they're a faction that fascinates me immensely, but a Desmond Hart ghola would just be awful (besides "spoiling" some of the surprise for the movies)

[@haplozetetic9519]

Agreed, but the writers seem to be ignoring canon and are having characters using terms and doing things that didn't exist or weren't known until thousands of years later. I don't think they care what is or is not canonically possible. I hope you are right, but so far, I can't give it no more than a 50% chance.

[@playbookshowme484]

Yeah well DP fvcked things up royally so it don't matter really all we can do is hope they StarTrek Discovery this DP story line and have Bobby Ewing wake up from a dream and dismiss everything.

[@prplhze2000]

Yeah but this is the world of Brian and that means ANYTHING Goes. Throw in the Westworld writers......

[@henrikg1388]

@@prplhze2000 Yes, unfortunately. A clear case of the apple falling far from the tree.

[@henrikg1388]

@@playbookshowme484 Bobby Ewing... A good one. 🤣🤣

[@magister.mortran]

There is a major problem with the character of Theodosia. There are no female face dancers. They can assume a female shape, but they are all male. And males cannot become Bene Gesserit. The Mother Superior would not have undermined the whole purpose of the sisterhood by allowing a man into the organization.

[@Hellish-qx4eq]

Sure she would. Theo was a tool to be used.

[@JediBubba-5-77]

Good explanation for Sister Theo in the finale. It seemed a little sloppy while it was happening but if it’s explained the right way in season 2 it could be a great story line.

[@mmikoff]

The way they are including the Tleilaxu in the show makes no sense... First face dancers are a genetically engineered slave class, so one joining the sisterhood seems impossible (also goes against what we learn later in the books) Second she would be able to reveal many of the hidden secets of the Tleilaxu, which again spoils the later books. Third, and minor spoilers..... the Tleilaxu have a plan that involves them pretending to be weak

[@DDanV]

Face dancers aren't suppose to exist this earlier (not even the tanks, mere decades prior they were shun as being flesh merchands, they kidnaped and enslaved unaligned communities, harvest their organs and sold them as bioengineered, until discovered). They would turn to bioengineering and become masters at it eventually, and this would be their initial steps in it... Theodosia is suppose to be an earlier experiment into what could become eventually the final tleilaxu face dancers, but as it stands now (mentioned in the last episode) Theodosia is an early prototype and it's hinted in the last episode the Reverend Mothers raided a Tleilaxu compound and Valya rescued Theodosia, so the bioengineers responsible for the project might have been killed and the Tleilaxu will have to retrace the experiment in the future or even have lost all recorded evidence of the experiment completely and will have to restart anew. Even Desmond Hart being a ghola makes absolutely no sense, in Paul Atreides time (10 thousand years into the future from now) the Tleilaxu are still in the infancy of gholas, they can't even do eyes properly yet and resort to mechanical eyes... Desmond Hart doesn't have mechanical eyes, the one eye that was operated on was his own, it was just bounded with machine thinking technology to fabricate the evolved Omnious plague virus but it's still his own biological eyes. But even if we entertain the idea of a ghola, the first one to regain his previous life conscience and memories is Hayt, Duncan Idaho's ghola 10 thousand years from now... and it was by accident, the Tleilaxu didn't knew that could happen (regain the previous memories), how come they would now know how to do it and know what that it was even possible? And as soon as they found out that was a possibility even they went full overdrive mode to perfect the ghola production (and have full biological eyes, because the Masters themselves didn't want to use mechanical eyes, they _"make slaves of their owners")_ and recovering the memories in order to attain immortality for themselves that way (all Masters in the last Frank Herberts books are gholas of previous masters, regaining their previous memories each time they come back as a ghola). If they had known 10 thousand years in the past how to reach immortality that way they would have done the same... so yeah... ... People are reaching and it shows, there are huge gaps in their Duniverse understanding (heck, even by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's standards). Now, for the part of a face dancer being impossible to join the sisterhood, well in the future (almost 14 thousand years into the future, during God Emperor) the Tleilaxu send face dancers to infiltrate the Ixian embassy in Arrakis, and further into the future still they even manage to replace Hedley Tuek, a High Priest of the Rakian Priesthood, but he assimilates so well that the Masters lose control of the face dancer because it literally became Hedley Tuek itself. But, Bene Gesserit (eventually, very early on in the life of the face dancers) manage to discover a way to detect face dancers by their homornal discharges (and Bene Gesserit being so intuned to their body, detecting some different pheromones - or something, can't remember now exactly what it was - is nothing difficult). But the result of an early experiment that either intentionally or by accident led to the precusor of the face dancer joining the Sistherhood is not an impossibility... the future face dancers themselves could have free will if they weren't hypnotically conditioned/enslaved since "birth". And she couldn't reveal any secret of the Tleilaxu because she knew nothing, she was an experiment, as stated in the last episode, rescued by the Reverend Mothers and probably was restrained in a cell.

[@josematos4615]

We need a full story on the tanks and how the whole female population got turned into incubators. Love your channel 🎉🎉❤

[@raydavison4288]

We are on the way to do that in our own culture. There is a powerful movement to once more enslave women. Does the phrase "Your body, my choice" sound familiar? 😢

[@richt7525]

They are masters of genetic technology- they likely have gained the ability to set the sex of future children. Given their severe Patriarchy I think it's safe to assume that women just went extinct in a society that values males and were inevitably only allowed to be born for the purposes of axlotl tanks. I don't think they turn women into tanks, but grow them into them from conception. That's hand in hand woth how their tech works.

[@HD-pc4id]

Narrator and choice of music keep me coming back

[@js70371]

Elaine in the David Lynch adaptation of Dune do you think the black-suited men who accompany the Guild Navigator in his meeting with the Emperor were supposed to represent the Tleilaxu? I always got that impression because of their aesthetic, being all male and the way they were rude and dismissive about the presence of Gaius Helen Mohiam, the Emperor’s Bene Gesserit truthsayer

[@farleyhouston9057]

I always assumed they were Guild navigators-to-be in the earliest stages of their transformation. Their heads were already starting to become malformed with black tubes coming out. Granted, some or all of this might have been David Lynch’s aesthetic. Also, the “witch” comment might have been meant to establish that the BG weren’t liked or trusted by everyone, perhaps including the Guild.

[@js70371]

@@farleyhouston9057 definitely a valid theory - although I wonder why those men spoke a strange language which had to be translated through microphones rather than English as the Guild Navigator did? Also, the Dune Wiki states that amongst the wares the Tleilaxu provided to the Imperiun were; genetically engineered humanoid sentient tools, face dancers, gholas, twisted Mentats, subverted Suk Doctors - and Guild Navigators

[@Mark-hr9dy]

No these were 1st and 2nd stage guild navigators along with a cadre of assistants.

[@agesflow6815]

Thank you, Nerd Cookies.

[@stephensmith4025]

I love this channel so much.

[@jamesabernethy7896]

A lot of people here will have a lot more knowledge of the Dune universe than I do. I have seen all the visual representations with the exception of this show. Although I like elements of all the versions but still love the 1984 version. From what I have been following from reviews and recaps these organisations don't seem to be that different than in Paul's era. They do not seem like mere embers of the organisations that we know. I felt an interesting aspect would have been exploring the more minor houses within the Landsraad and all their power plays. Having a sense of freedom to explore that.

[@farleyhouston9057]

I wonder if Theodosia is a Tleilaxu double agent (thus a danger to the sisterhood), or even a triple agent truly in league with the sisterhood despite pretending to help the Tleilaxu. Plans within plans.

[@cowboyone0]

Nice video! !Enjoyed listening to your ideas on the show. Could Sister Theodosia be a Tleilax undercover agent?

[@pilotpig9167]

Something that has me confused is mother requella on her deathbed saw the blue eyes before Desmond was born. Did she see the future? or is there something more going on? very interesting idea in this video I hope we get to see it

[@pilotpig9167]

30 years before the procedure happens, not before he was born. :)

[@earlsfield]

Good stuff, keep it coming. Would be cool to involve Tleilaxu ( I mean, it is a slam dunk now), but I find one thing odd tho - sister Theodosia, who is a face dancer, isn't that a Tleilaxu's skill and...how does that compute? It might be it is not Tleilaxu behind this. Although it fits the narrative.

[@Woodrow0]

I was thinking Dorotaya's group of fanatics might just become fanatical enough to turn themselves into tanks, after what Valya did.

[@quentincollins1825]

Messin' with the Powindah 😈

[@thomasfisher8793]

The Tleilaxu enslaved their woman who later rebelled joined the Fish Speakers and Renegade Bene Gesserit forming the Honored Matres tge most Feared woman in the Universe about 4 millenia after the time in the novel Dune.

[@Dan-ud8hz]

Does Hart actually remember the implantation or is that memory a subconscious one? I'm uncertain as to whether or not he's supposed to be aware of that having happened to him.

[@Nineteen1900Hundred]

How did everyone else see the blue robot eye? I thought visions in Dune were more personal, along a genetic line? Or at least, your own potential futures. Like, why would the mother superior see through Desmond’s eyes?

[@baronvonslapnuts]

Would the Tleilaxu really use thinking machines?

[@paulh2468]

You go, Ghola! Errr, I mean axlotl tank! No, wait, I mean witch!

[@NguyenQuangLuan802]

You can't kill the Messiah - Kane -

[@Senbonzakura776]

This would be cool to see.

[@Twenty-Seven]

Do we know how old Scytale actually is? Or any Tleilaxu master?

[@DDanV]

We do. Scytale was a face dancer first, and he first appeared in Paul Atreides time, prior to the Tleilaxu discover that gholas could regain their previous life memories and conscience, so it's fair to say he was born around the time Paul was born (give or take decades). After Hayt regaining Ducan's memories and the Tleilaxu finding out they could use that as a way of immortality for themselves (and even for face dancers, that's how Scytale went from face dancer during Dune Messiah to Master almost 5 thousand years later, by living enough lives that his input became important enough as a Master), so it's only from Dune Messiah time onwards that becomes completely impossible to actually know when any Tleilaxu was originally born.

[@DanniDusette]

Personally, I really hate everything they've done - Face Dancers could have had a much more interesting introduction. They could have been introduced as performers/prostitutes/etc. rather than creating problems by having one a member of the Sisterhood, which completely breaks canon and introduces a huge set of problems that they're definitely not going to address. It's possible she's a double agent, but that just shifts the problem by making the Sisterhood not nearly as capable as they should be. Of course this goes back to a central issue with the show - the fact that this Imperium is pretty much the same as the Imperium in the DV films. Yes, stagnation is a theme in Dune, but that doesn't mean everything stays exactly the same (the social stagnation is a bigger problem.) Ix, Richese, and Bene Tleilax continue to experiment and create new things and innovation was allowed as long as it didn't mess with established social norms. Leto is afraid of technology someday outstripping humanity's ability to deal with it once self-improving hunter seekers became a thing. A fledgling Imperium, newly-built and struggling under religious dogma (the CET would be great to see) and the Guild monopoly would have been interesting, but they just wanted to make a CW level melodrama wearing a Dunesuit, so that's what they did.

[@MinhFong-p6m]

Reverend mothers can clock any facedancer. Prana Bintu, baby!!!!

[@gnomechomsky2524]

Unrelated but how come Francesca didn’t transmute the poison from the needle that killed her?

[@KentoLeoDragon]

She didn't even notice someone sneaking up behind her. She wasn't prepared.

[@gnomechomsky2524]

@ BG are also supposed to be able to have super senses and feel changes in air pressure or hear the slightest change in sound… not to nitpick haha. Just a weird choice IMO

[@DanniDusette]

Script said she didn't.

[@DDanV]

Blame it on being earlier Bene Gesserit, not the powerful Bene Gesserit of the 10k'ish AG and certainly not the ones from Chapterhouse.

[@relevare33]

Love the show

[@Floppy-1235]

I find the unfolding of dune secrets in a tv show not based on Franks story disappointing

[@ritchierich2793]

I'm calling BS, i dont think we will get to see the ending of this series before it gets cancelled.. its just a nice easter egg for them to bounce around..

[@playbookshowme484]

4:16 Think of this place as Star wars hollywood but with men in charge Wokeing out women.

[@playbookshowme484]

3:48 Nooooo... really?

[@josephlamonica4167]

Begins the Shadow war has........ Whoops wrong Franchise :P

[@ewarrior9776]

I would welcome a B5 sequel or reboot. The special effects were cutting edge for 90s TV. Can you imagine what they could do today?

[@andrewfowler1940]

At this point the only reason I will watch Dune Prophecy is to see any Easter eggs or lore reference. Otherwise I'm pretty disappointed that they deviated so far from the source material. I've read all of the Dune novels including all of the Brian Herbert / Kevin J Anderson books. I know that many fans reject the BH books and consider them non cannon, regardless of that I do think the story of Vorian Atreides was the best part of those prequel books. They screwed up the story and killed him off... could have been a better story

[@haplozetetic9519]

Agreed.

[@mattmmilli8287]

No one wants that 😂 sorry man It’s good they have gone their own way and staying Dune and using bits and pieces of that fan fiction stuff

[@DDanV]

Vorian isn't dead... not here, and not in the books either.

[@Sean-wq5fg]

Great analysis as usual. FYI, female chauvinism is misandry.

[@brendolage]

my issue with Dune prophecy is that i don't root for a single character and yet I watch it. I hope it changes for season 2.

[@gmirsky1962]

I enjoy your commentary and insights. Could Sister Theodosia be a deep Tleilaxu mole into the Bene Gessetit sisterhood? How else would the Tleilaxu know so much about the inner workings of the sisterhood? Just a guess that would make for interesting plot twist.

[@jennabronson4704]

They haven’t even touched on the Guild, or mentats. The show has been an overall letdown.

[@DDanV]

I'm pretty sure they won't go deep into the memtats because they have another book to sell to the producing company: _Mentats of Dune._ This series is losely based on the _Sisterhood of Dune_ book (well, "present day" events are after the book, "past" scenes are suppose to be around or prior the book), so if I was Brian and Kevin I would be holding the mentats off to pitch them as a new series.

[@AdegaOutlaw]

I stopped watching the show, but my money is on the hooded figure being a Bene Gesserit

[@DDanV]

I have thought of that as well, but the only ones who could be so disgruntled against the current sisterhood would be Dorotea 's followers and they were all religious fanatics (against the thinking machines), they would never employ the use of thinking machines and that thing working on Desmond Hart's eye and bounding it with the Omnious virus manufacturing pods is a thinking machine. But then again... where is Lila's mother? Dorotea's daughter? She doesn't need to be a religious fanatic, she just needs to be disgruntled against the BG for killing her mother. We never saw Lila's mother in the _other memories,_ and Tula was reluctant to answer Lila when she wondered if she would see her mother in the _other memories._ So there's that possibility, but it's all what ifs based on a tart of nothingness.

[@johndevillier2852]

🖖🏽

[@thatotherguy4245]

Interesting TV series, but what kind of low-effort writing led to a nano-virus that can be sent through line of sight? If you want to kill a character, at least keep it slightly in line with the book universe

[@DDanV]

I hate to break it to you... it is in line with the _"book universe"..._ well, Brian Herbert's and Kevin J. Anderson's books. And they are canon since Brian is not only the son of the late Frank Herbert but also the managing general of Frank Herbert's Estate (Herbert Properties LLC). So Omnious plague virus existed in Brian Herbert's and Keving J. Anderson's books, this is a variation of said virus (changed by the shadowy figure to fit their needs), so... yeah... here we are.

[@thatotherguy4245]

@DDanV Brian Herbert is a stain on his father's legacy

[@dee0017]

Is it me or are the TLEILAXU the real bad guys in the whole dune serious ?

[@joaovictorkelima2551]

Would there be a problem if it was one of the machines that are the main antagonists in Brian's books? I ask genuinely, because I have a huge curiosity to read them, but unfortunately Brian's books 7 and 8 have not yet been brought here to my country, only Sisterhood.

[@haplozetetic9519]

I'm among those who considers the prequel books fan fiction, but at least that would make some sense compared to the disregard for canon so far.

[@DDanV]

@@haplozetetic9519 regardless if you consider fan fiction, it is canon, specially in this show since it's literally based on the Brian and Kevin expanded universe (occuring after their book _Sisterhood of Dune)_ and they are literally cited as writers for the show (well, writers... so is Frank Herbert and he's been dead for decades... they are writers in the sense that the show occurs in their universe, under their canon and authorized use of it... Brian is also the managing general of Frank Herbert Estate, so he has the last say on the use of the entire Duniverse property).

[@haplozetetic9519]

​@@DDanV I'm well aware this is technically the case, but it contradicts Frank Herbert's writings. Further, my concerns include the witches using a term like "Shai Hulud" about 8 thousand years before it existed, and only among the Fremen. It is also very unlikely that face dancers were good enough to do as was depicted in the show, if they even existed at that time. There is more, but I don't have the time.

[@jasongrundy1717]

Can you even have a war when one side is a bunch of emotional old ladies nattering amongst themselves? The Bene Gesserit are their own worst enemy in this terrible show.

[@TomCat-zo5ig]

So bad

[@Loolsie]

😂

[@johnny5red42]

That episode sucked. It makes no sense. Why would the princes run away with a traitor! It makes no sense