The Inevitable Downfall Of Westworld

[@bencarlson4300]

I’ve still only ever seen season 1 of Westworld, and it honestly works for me as a stand-alone miniseries. Most of the character arcs are resolved, and it ends perfectly. We know where this is all going by the end of that first season, I didn’t feel the need to watch any more, but I’ve rewatched that first season a few times.

[@ScotBotAI]

Give the second season a chance. It's not as bad as the reviews make out and there's some really great parts in it that are as good as anything in season 1.

[@thevikingbear2343]

I would tecpmmend you to watch Season 4 to see what happens afterwards. Definitely skip 3 and read what happens in Season 2 which is not much.

[@patrickaker4380]

Right there with ya. Didn’t watch 1 till season 2 was released. Started it and loved season 1. The first episode of the second season turned me off.

[@VinnyBloo]

The first season is good? After the first episode, I said, "Okay, got it."

[@bencarlson4300]

@@VinnyBloo It's a bit up its own ass at times, but overall its very compelling. Primarily the character interactions and acting are what stand out imo.

[@mattcool97]

the problem is that there were so many twists that twists became expected and therefore no plot point had any emotional weight to it because at any time the show could just go "ACTUALLY, THAT WAS JUST A SIMULATION!" or "ACTUALLY, SHE HAD A BACKUP ROBOT BODY IN A HIDDEN LOCATION SO SHE NEVER DIED" or "AND THEN THEY BROUGHT HIM BACK TO LIFE AS A SIMULATION" etc. etc. The twists started to feel increasingly arbitrary.

[@JayJoe626]

That’s how I felt. Nothing had consequences because everything could be undone

[@captainKbobkeeshan]

Good point. It's like, "it was a dream." then use that again and again... the viewers are, well it's all a dream so who cares.

[@peteness9550]

Exactly. It was weak , lame and ridiculous. This wasn’t intelligent script writing. This was clueless script writing without vision and sought excuses to plod along while sucking off the HBO teat. No wonder they wanted to rid themselves of this god awful expensive turd

[@catsupchutney]

Plot devices can never replace good writing.

[@peteness9550]

@@catsupchutney “Fata Accompli” - Shakespeare used this as a plot device. HG Wells did it in War Of The Worlds. It’s a tool used to write your way out of a corner and works best when it’s used for closure. It’s clever when done correctly. Except Nolan and Joy just thought they could do it as they pleased. Michael Chri ton NEVER used this in any of his stories. Fata Accompli was also the subject of a joke in the movie “Thank You For Smoking” as a tool script writers use to invent some stupid magical invention to dig their way out of a sci-fi movie. ‘Just make up something!” No wonder HBO got pissed off blowing a fortune on amateur and lazy writing.

[@the_stewbear]

Glad I’m not the only one that noticed the rather abrupt decline in this show’s writing direction. It had so much cool potential after the first season that it unfortunately didn’t live up to.

[@KingsizeKini]

I think because the first season is a perfect self contained story that didn't need a sequel

[@paulw5039]

@@KingsizeKini Like so many movies or TV shows. The Matrix being possibly the best example of this.

[@dominiquepowell3158]

Agree! I noticed it after season 3 and I was done.

[@mavster78]

@@KingsizeKini Yeah, I'm in that boat

[@mavster78]

@@paulw5039 Oh yeah, 2 and 3 were mostly forgettable, confusing and unnecessary ... with maybe the car scene in 2 being the only redeeming factor. The less we talk about 4....

[@Senor0Droolcup]

They should’ve just kept the storyline in the park rather than trying to tell the same story as Blade Runner. they could’ve kept slowly revealing mysteries of the park for season after season and audiences would’ve loved it

[@marklarner4495]

Completely agree with that, plus they could have had so many different scenarios of AI gaining consciousness; good, evil, benign, power hungry, apathetic and on and on.....

[@joshtiscareno1312]

Yep. Westworld was what people came to see. Taking the action outside of the simulation takes away from the allure of the initial concept. There are more sci-fi dystopias than you can shake a stick at, but Westworld is the only one that takes place in a cowboy theme park full of androids that have developed sentience. Take that away, and you just become another generic sci-fi show.

[@marklarner4495]

@@joshtiscareno1312 I know it's not going to happen, but how about a prequel reboot. Good writing and one third the budget would be a winner for me.

[@mathewpaxinos8437]

At the end of season 1 we even saw that there were other 'Worlds' that they could have expended into, leaving the real world alone.

[@thechillmaster5836]

Ehhh aftwr a while, it probably woulda got boring and still canceled

[@yolocards2]

Westworld was Heroes 2.0 Game Changing First Season but got progressively worse and worse

[@thevikingbear2343]

The later half of Season 4 was very good. Having an "utopia" where the machines are in control and humanity is trapped in story loops like the hosts of seaspn 1 is a great conclusion to Westworld. Specially with the reat of humans living in the mAd-Max style of real world but it was roo little too late. The problem is that Season 3 killed the momentum. You can skip season 3 and nothing changes actually. Dolores is the only bad part of Seaspn 4 and is the only thing that carries form Season 3 so we could skip her and it would be great actually. Which is sad because Dolores is the MVP of Season 1.

[@Pedant_Patrol]

The big writer's strike impacted Heroes. Not sure what WW's excuse is.

[@Henbot]

Season 3 was way better than season 2 and the problem is that the first season was so great they couldn’t match it.

[@Henbot]

@@thevikingbear2343Not really, the problem is season 3 was reset for season 4 so it seemed pointless when it actually was really solid revolutionary conclusion

[@Raider1961]

Whoever wrote and produced the last two seasons, totally needs to be fired and have their butts kicked last two seasons sucked

[@IamPotat0o]

My view on series: Season 1 - Incredible Season 2 - Ok? But super confusing. Season 3 - Bad... Is this really Westworld? Season 4 - Surprisingly good compared to season 3. Season 4 was similar to Season 1 in many ways, and at the end of Season 4 it looked like Season 5 was a repeat of Season 1, which would have been so cool. I'm sad that we may never see a Season 5 :(((

[@The_Accuser]

What a lot of commentators forget, is that the orignial movie franchise had part 1: Westworld, and part 2: Futureworld. The series spread out both parts into two seasons each. So season 3 is really Futureworld, aka Westworld part 2. Does that make sense?

[@asuhdude6668]

The amount of people in the comments saying “Season 3 was good!” is an Insult to my intelligence. Season 3 was probably the worst of them all, & that’s saying something b/c Season 4 sucked bigtime.

[@eyesaac965]

I find it funny that Jonathan Nolan is now directing the Fallout TV show, y'know the Sci-Fi dystopia that leans heavily on themes from old westerns 😂

[@MrAthul22]

And once again season 1 is a success

[@cain666]

I am afraid to start watching

[@billcook8136]

and he is using the same formula that killed west world.

[@satnav9699]

If you watch closely then the Man in black is very similar to the Ghoul

[@Prince36300]

@@MrAthul22 It was (and I enjoyed it) but there are some weird/head scratching questions at the end and the big revelation just doesnt make any logical sense (unless the characters are idiots). Im a bit worried after watching this

[@Xantar]

Season 1 was great, but season 2 demonstrated that the writers didn’t actually have anything to say. All they had was tricks to bamboozle the audience about what’s happening. The time shifts and memory tricks had a point in Season 1, but after that it was just a gimmick.

[@keylanoslokj1806]

It over hyped, but without any solid substance behind it to deliver later

[@sam4secretary]

no-- they did have many things to say... and said it in Season 1.

[@Hax9]

Mr. Robot tried to do a similar thing in it's 2nd season. The big twist in the 1st season was well received so they kinda did a repeat of it again and it didn't really have the same effect. Especially since the big twist was that he'd just been in jail this whole time. 🤷‍♂

[@element4element4]

I think they had things to say in every season. Season one is about the question of, what is consciousness. Is it just a question of complexity, or is there something more? If you can't tell the difference, it's the same? Second season, turns on humans. Now that consciousness can be created artificially, how much data is needed to recreate a complete human consciousness? What is a human, in essence. Third season explores a future in which AI, similar to how we know and use it today, has much much greater computational power. How does that affect society and how is it abused by those in power. Personally I think season 2 is great, it has some of the best episodes in the series. Season 1 is unquestioned. Season 3 I liked as well, but it felt somewhat unrefined. My understanding is that the production was affected by covid and forest fires in California. Season 4, I did not enjoy the (intentionally) steril style. I missed the heart and wonder that was in season 1. But philosophically, there were well thought out themes and subtle messages in every season. For those who care. How it was told might have been less well done in later seasons, compared to the earlier ones.

[@Thx1138sober]

Season 1: some of the best tv ever Season 2: what a mess There was a season 3 and 4?

[@Timeculture]

😂 yes! Btw how did season 2 end?

[@javierel22]

Stopped watching after season 2. Can't believe the weird sci-fi turn they gave it

[@Thx1138sober]

@@Timeculture As I remember, the Indians went into cyberspace, there were samurai and Bernard remembered something or did something.

[@jerk1921]

@@Timeculture Who Cares!

[@ArcanePath360]

Gave up half way through episode 2 of season 2. It was like a whole different show and was obviously made by a different team of writers who had no idea what they were doing. That's how I perceived it anyway.

[@Schopenhauer667]

I tell you what happened, "Ninja Maeve". That is when the series died for me.

[@philippewiederkehr4252]

Agreed, when she - a robot who just learned mindblowibg facts about herself and her world and never handled a automatic gun - took out a whole team if trained army / security forces I was just waiting for a reveal, that it wasn‘t real. For me that was just a stupid way for the story to take.

[@thomasleukart1755]

What killed the series was the lack of Anthony Hopkins

[@DmytroBogdan]

First season would work just fine with any other actor in that role. Its a lack of script that killed the rest of the seasons

[@Cbart23]

Sir Anthony Hopkins.

[@suhseal]

So true

[@rpmexre1003]

⁠@@DmytroBogdan It would work “fine” with a lot of other actors yes. But not with every. And would work as well as it did with Hopkins with very few other.

[@sahzaman]

True

[@dan_hitchman007]

One of the many narrative problems centered around Dolores. In the first season, you sympathized with her plight to realize her freedom and her sentience. Then Nolan and Joy completely flipped the script and made her a megalomaniacal villain starting in Season 2, undercutting the audience's good will.

[@arthurg7894]

The writers tried to outsmart the reddit sub, that's what I remember happening. It was such an utter mess

[@jimjam51075]

Oh, I forgot about that. It was as pathetic as watching someone try boxing themselves in a mirror.

[@Dranomoly]

this was a big part of it.

[@Geep1778]

Yes! And in so doing flushed amazing potential down the toilet

[@JacobSantosDev]

Yeah. I was there when someone predicted the ending of the first season with the second or third episode.

[@acerimmer8338]

That's the same thing that happened w/ season 7 and especially 8 in Game of Thrones. Who cares if some random chud on the internet figured out the story?! 99% never did or don't care and just wanna see the best conclusion.

[@BillC-ch7iz]

What happened to Westworld is pretty much the same as what happens to all series. They start out with a great premise, then slowly but surely move away from the original premise and the original cast into weird, convoluted story lines that get more weird and more convoluted with time. I have found that I rarely watch a show past the first season.

[@ct6852]

The only real option for an ongoing series is to endlessly complicate what was already established. ER was like that back in the day. Ultimately it's love of the characters that keeps it going.

[@GarfieldRex]

Raised by Wolves still makes me cry there's no ending 😭😭😭

[@jerk1921]

Yeah, Because Ridley Skott directed that show. Then I am sure that he handed it off to some typical tv show studio from there. .. Because he could not have even accidentally made a season 2 that was that pointless.

[@frogman9989]

Yeah... I was disappointed they ended that show also. I really wanted questions answered.

[@tjk3430]

I really want to know how RBW would have ended story wise.

[@elscruffomcscruffy8371]

Yet, Westworld is rewarded with 4-5 seasons of garbage

[@tjk3430]

@@elscruffomcscruffy8371 I gotta defend S3. Ep titled Genre was a masterstroke.

[@mitchlynroberts4726]

I actually loved the jump to the "real world". I had wondered what the outside looked like and getting to see how the same technology that was used for "entertainment" was redirected in the real world felt very relevant and fascinating to observe.

[@rockstar6790]

The issue with Westworld is that it got too ambitious with its storyline (similar to Heroes and Lost).

[@The3nd187]

The final nail in the coffin was Aaron Paul shouting "HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS!!!"

[@BingBong422]

I will always argue that Westworld season 1 should have been a standalone miniseries

[@RobertoCarlos-tn1iq]

yup. add maybe 3 more episodes and call it a day.

[@no0nefamouss]

It basically is. It's a complete story. I wish this video had touched on that a little more.

[@gabrielscoccola5960]

I'll also argue that it would have been even better without the Maeve storyline.

[@BingBong422]

yeah I agree but they should have stopped after season 1@@no0nefamouss

[@BigMek667]

I just decided for myself that it is 😂

[@AndrewBenson1186]

What I think happened was that while in the beginning, they respected the audiences intelligence by not dumbing down the writing and it actually begins to become more complicated and convoluted to the point of bombarding information and hoping the audience are able to keep the threads together....I liked the show but I wouldn't be truthful if I said I was able to understand what was going on at points

[@SourRobo8364]

I've rewatched season 1 so many times. Showing it to just about anyone. Never gets old to me.

[@merrytunes8697]

How are you watching it since Max got rid of it? Did you buy it?

[@michaelpukish748]

Nope, S2 was the peak. It was the studio's overreaction to backlash against the complexity that lurched it firmly into the typical and poorly supported progression of the plot from S3 to the end.

[@tobiaschurch8848]

Stopped at season 1. Now I get to remember Westworld as a gem😅

[@goldfishy]

Watch Kitsuya episode from season 2. Self contained mostly and a masterpiece.

[@brysonfreeman7226]

Should’ve ended (stopped) after Season 1

[@jimlamb7642]

I did likewise and still remember it fondly.

[@luxinvictus9018]

It's amazing how often I finish s1 of a show and then feel just too lazy to bother with the rest. I think "eh, I'll get around to it" Then 2 years later I see a KZbin video about how the later s asons were basically and feel so thankful I just watched s1, which is often a self contained story.

[@nickgates4259]

I think we all collectively had the same thought at the end of season 1. “Wow that was great but damn they kinda blew their whole load. That should’ve been the series finale”

[@Daniel-rp7nb]

100%

[@AbstractEntityJ]

I felt the same way at the end of The Mandalorian season 2.

[@nickgates4259]

@@AbstractEntityJ I was onboard for more Mandalorian after season 2 but then Boba Fett killed all that enthusiasm and what I heard of season 3 sealed the deal forever

[@tteros5998]

turns out all those british TV shows that had 2 season runs with 6 episodes a piece kinda had the right idea

[@brysonfreeman7226]

Yes, should’ve stopped after Season 1

[@ct6852]

I enjoyed the whole series. Almost all of it felt fairly ground breaking, especially for TV. The first season was the most compelling, with all the possibilities still intact. But I really never knew where the series was going and there were constant surprises. Season three's concept of every human in the real world having their destinies predicted, and then prescribed was a really interesting twist. Definitely some episodes in later seasons where I fast forwarded through parts, but every episode had an important piece of the puzzle. Some had too much filler, for sure. But all in all a super depressing show that I happened to love, and at times was inspired by. Glad it exists.

[@The_Accuser]

Many people forget that the part 2 of the original movie Westworld, was in fact Futureworld. With the latter showing more about the dystopian societal context in which such a brutal games like Westworld/Shogunworld could exist.

[@ct6852]

@@The_Accuser I've never seen the movie. Is it good?

[@lishengshun2873]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed the entirety of the show. Season 1 is ofc peak but the arc with Aaron Paul honestly felt like the closest thing we currently have to Deus Ex the game and I found that very interesting.

[@The_Accuser]

@@ct6852 "I've never seen the movie. Is it good?" Let's say interesting. At the time 70's it was a new take on the SciFi genre. Yul Brynner did a stunning good job as "The Man in Black", which ironicly is a host in the original. Him being a macho gunslinger. After some technical problems are show in other parts of the park, in his next run Gunslinger-In-Black shoots and kills a guest of the park. And soon goes on a killing spree. When I watched it on TV as a kid, it was pretty scary. 90 minutes that keep you awake for sure! Some philosophical hints but far from being as deep and thoughtful as the Netflix series.

[@ct6852]

@@The_Accuser The one scene I've seen on TV was where Yul Brynner gets deleted towards the end. Definitely seems to be a connection between acting evil and acting robotic. Same thought when watching No Country for Old Men.

[@ianm1462]

Westworld is a great example of ‘have a good answer to the questions you’re asking before you go into production’. Such an interesting premise with no satisfying answers a la Lost, Raised by Wolves, Heroes, Walking Dead, etc.

[@haraldcarlsten6238]

@@StevenAllen-z6b Wow! That is a great reflection. JJ Abrams. The nemesis of great content. When everything starts it is all shiny and new with great questions. And then it collapses. Like a flan in the cupboard...

[@sackthebastard]

Lost answers all its questions

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

Well raised by wolves had all the seasons planned out in detail. The problem was we never got to see it all come together.

[@PhillyDove]

Lost answered it's questions.

[@bsaintnyc]

westworld answered almost every question every season , except for the questions related to the final storyline that was going to be resolved in s5. what are you talking about?

[@johnard611]

Jonathon Nolan's previous series "Person of Interest" had an opposite trajectory: it started out as an above average network action show with one high concept (an AI periodically alerts it creator to persons who will soon be the victims or perpetrators of violence) and evolved into a complex story of two AIs and their human "acolytes" fighting a mostly behind the headlines battle for the fate of humanity. The constraints of a mostly-episodic network show forced a more gradual build-up to what turned out to be in my opinion one of the best near future set science fiction tv shows ever. Every new season was better than the last and they really stuck the landing with a series finale that was the perfect conclusion for its characters.

[@loui4898]

Main problem is they got rid of Ford way too soon. Lack of philosophical discussions ended with him.

[@dan_hitchman007]

Hopkins was far too expensive a get, even though he was a wonderful villain and he acted amazingly well, and they had to slash the budget in Season 2.

[@hnnsy]

@@dan_hitchman007 interesting you see him as a villain. Always thought he was somewhere in between a villain and hero. Maybe even more a hero if anything. If memory serves. Been a while since I saw it.

[@Loftikaz]

He was no villain, his phrase ( devine power is within) should free people from the prison of their mind

[@AdmiralValdemar]

@@hnnsy He had reservations about Delos having sentient machines be park attractions for eternity to boost profits.

[@JewTube001]

@@hnnsy Honestly you could make arguments for both. I didn't see him as a villain by the end but a few people might still put him there.

[@regrich4720]

Agreed! How many shows are ruined because they have to keep upping the stories with each season. Season one has interesting characters, understandable plots and believable arcs. Then they feel like they have to do more in Season 2 and even more in Season 3 etc until it is an overblown convoluted mess. So many great shows ruined that way.

[@cmbaz1140]

Hopkins had too much presence the hole after he left couldnt be filled. Ed Harris was also amazing... The moment these two were no more was the moment the show was gone...

[@ScentlessSun]

Agreed. These two actors had an enormous presence on the show. Especially Hopkins.

[@atomicsmith]

Agreed. The broader cast was very good, but Hopkins in season one was sublime. How could you top that?

[@shuttittuppitt9355]

_Disagreed._ Those 2 are good actors who played good roles in this, but for me personally, Evan Rachel Wood was _my_ main character.

[@FupaDoncic]

@@shuttittuppitt9355 all the actors were solid, it was just all over the place what they had to make make sense to us

[@elscruffomcscruffy8371]

Apparently even Ed Harris was annoyed and frustrated with how and what his character was doing. Like Peter Dinklage with the imbecile D&D writers, he started questioning his own characters judgement and was clueless!

[@khanindustries]

I loved season 1, but they killed the whole Westworld feel after that. I wish they stayed in the Westworld setting and focused on a new major character with a different story to tell each season.

[@charlesjmouse]

Season 1 - The best TV in years..? Season 2 - I'm embarrassed to report how long it took me to realise what an empty and meaningless imitation it was of the first season. No, I didn't watch any more. In short - either the makers ran out of talent and ideas, or never had any and Season 1 was just a moment of lightning in a bottle.

[@GlassGhost428]

Season 1: Crap Other Seasons: Ever more crap Show sucked from the beginning. "Best TV in years" lol no

[@Daniel-rp7nb]

@@GlassGhost428can’t imagine why you are watching this video then. Also, did you really watch the later seasons, or even the end of S1 if you thought it was all crap? If so, why?

[@rb2kTube]

Someone should study why the entertainment industry develops a smash hit, then turns around and makes the next iteration a story about world-ending, existence shattering, saving the universe events. The Westworld story about Westworld was more than enough. What drove them to make an AI heaven, human extinction story? It happens with almost every piece of film media.

[@ICgay4]

Agreed with you hottie What season did you like? 😅

[@reim1004]

Westworld only has 1 Season for me and I'm happy with that

[@Timeculture]

😂😂😂😂😅😂😂😅😂😂😅😂me toooooo

[@brysonfreeman7226]

Yes, should’ve stopped after Season 1

[@damiandamiano3651]

i will tell you this season would be a great movie

[@Lonovavir]

Same here, it tells the story well. The sequel in your head is better than what was filmed.

[@mc-tb8yu]

i got locked up after the 1st season and came out as season 4 was finishing up, heard nothing but bad things so i can happily say i've only seen season 1

[@obikedog]

I agree it breaks screen writing rules and that's probably the reason for loss of audience and thus funding. But to me taking liberties with the rules tends to make art more interesting and I will not go along with the premise this series somehow lost its way or wasn't worthy of its accolades. The only issue loss of audience presents to those like me is we're deprived of enjoying complex narrative in lieu of formulaic slavery to screenwriting arithmetic. This happened to LOST too but thankfully the producers were able to see it through to a final ending so the few like me were allowed to appreciate that story to the end. (Yes, I'm admittedly and PROUDLY an outlier!) The subsequent seasons of Westworld achieve an amazing reveal. In particular the ending of the third season could not be more on point. I feel sorry for people who are incapable of appreciating a complex plot arch and the deep ramifications of this story in full. Most of all I am sad to learn there will not be another season. Oh well - there's always hugely popular Golden Bachelor (and much, much more EXACTLY like it!) for the masses to gobble up with Cheetos and ice cream!

[@stebesplace]

I always felt it should have just been a 10-12 run mini-series with 1-1.5hr episodes where season 1 and part of 2 was it, with the ending being the man in black reveal. I think more people would have gravitated towards that, but who knows.

[@Andelf-Awaken]

There was no downfall of Westworld. This perfect masterpiece shines until today. - TOP SERIES EVER -

[@AKen_Films]

I feel like by the time season two rolls round they should’ve just let go of the idea of blowing everyone’s mind with a time gap twist like they did in season one and just carried forward with Bernard story at the center. The separate timelines of Bernard doesn’t work because Jeffrey Wright barely changes between the scenes. We literally can’t tell if we’ve jumped back in time or is this just a continuation because Jeffrey Wright looks the same!

[@AZ-ct9th]

He looses his glasses before the timeline weeks later. So if you take the time on a rewatch, it’s very clear what is happening when..

[@efnissien]

Yul Brenner's terminator-esque performance? Shouldn't that have been Arnold Swarzenegger's 'Man in black-esque performance'? It's all there, Yul, with the thermal vision, the relentless pursuit and of course he's a fucking robot!

[@The_Accuser]

And then there was part two in 1976: Futureworld.

[@Forysan]

Westworld seemed to suffer the fate of other "saga driven" genre shows (GoT, BSG '05, etc.): The production team simply wrote themselves into a corner. They upped the stakes and story arcs way too early, thereby leaving nowhere interesting left to take it.

[@MrEwragg]

I don’t feel like that’s the issues GOT has. In fact, if anything, the build is incredible for at least the first 4/5 seasons (personally I love the 6th as well) It’s issues were : 1. trying to subvert expectations as opposed to finishing off character arcs 2. Bringing back small part characters because they were popular despite them having no narrative function 3. Rushing the end Most of those can be put down to the fact they were following a blueprint but then there was no blueprint and they had to make it up. I also think they fundamentally missed the point. It isn’t game of thrones, it is a song of ice and fire. The throne is a distraction from the main threat not the main threat itself. Killing off the white walkers so early was, honestly, sacrilege

[@williamapple7705]

GoT and Westworld both suffered from leaning really hard into their female empowerment characters for the sake of the plot. To be clear, I love stories about women that are empowering. But it shouldn’t surprise people that as Westworld and GoT went harder into their empowerment messaging and focus on their strong women characters, the writing simultaneously takes a clear dip in quality. It happened all over the industry, but it’s interesting to see it happened to 2 of the biggest shows under the same production house at the same time.

[@paulw5039]

@@williamapple7705 The problem is Hollywood 'empowerment' invariably means writing a Mary Sue character. Good characters need flaws and complexities (for one thing, when the character succeeds despite these things it's a much more satisfying journey). They think empowerment means removing these elements.

[@battlep0t]

​@@williamapple7705 The problem with Game of Thrones wasn't female empowerment. George RR Martin was a huge advocate of female characters having several with POV chapters in the books. The problem was the showrunners running out of book material so they had to write original content. They sacrificed the shows core strength with was character building and political intrigue for the sake of plot and rushed about 3 seasons worth of content in 13 episodes because they wanted to finish so they could move onto Star Wars. Certain plot threads could have worked if given the time to develop them but because they were so rushed they felt out of character. Pretty much every single character in the show - male and female - got completely flanderised in the last two seasons. The only two who had satisfying endings were Theon and Brienne.

[@bb1111116]

@@battlep0t ; in a way Westworld suffered from the same problem as GOT. Westworld ran out of material and so the writers needed to create a different path which wasn’t as unique. After all, Blade Runner already convered the issues of human like androids in a city.

[@magicmulder]

I did like all seasons so far. The Rehoboam arc was a bit underwhelming in its conclusion as it lacked a good twist. Plus a few weak spots where people behaved out of character, like Delores walking straight into gunfire and almost dying. Season 4 had it all, including a great twist (again with the timeline), but its ending just felt like "with two episodes left they learned they wouldn't get renewed" and just forced an ending to the saga.

[@Yoho96]

This was my favorite show it was awesome but s1 was by far the best

[@anubusx]

Same here.

[@DarkStormV9]

I agree things got complicated, but this show is severely underrated. Season 2 was really good, and from S2 to S4 they went so far regarding consciousness that they showed us how Ford’s creation went on to change the ENTIRE world. The storyline, even tho they are complicated, where really interesting on an intellectual level, the CGI, ACTING (!!) was superb. I don’t regret watching it till the very end and I feel so many shows get more views yet don’t do half of the job Westworld did, on a narrative and thinking perspective

[@The_Accuser]

I think this whole series will ripe like fine wine.

[@chrisr1733]

I wish they would do a finale movie, or at least explain in an interview what season 5 was going to be about (or have they? - let me know!).

[@apexpredator2277]

Sir Anthony Hopkins & Ed Harris were the core of westworld!!

[@ugurgul8161]

I dont agree with you on Season 2. Hell i even think it was just a little better than season 1. Its one thing to imagine hope and another thing to see it. Season 2 captures some of the basics of this plot. Including Delos' plotline, Akecheta, Ford's motives, Bernard's choices, Dolores' psycho killing spree and many more. Its marked as the "day of reckoning" for some reason ofc. I completely agree on the rest tho. Cheers.

[@joshfactor1]

apparently, they had just one more season before they reached their planned ending & despite the ups & downs, i still want to see what that finale would look like

[@Magdalena8008s]

We will see it. Jonah Nolan has said they have full plans to tell the whole story. They only had one season left. And they said they will do it one way or another.

[@Marcusml333]

@@Magdalena8008s But how, though?

[@Deadpool784]

​@@Magdalena8008s When did he say that?

[@GothPaoki]

For eye's sake i hope we don't get to see it..

[@GlassGhost428]

If it was anything like Episode 1, Season 1 then I'm guessing it would look like trash

[@ls6097]

The first season was pretty riveting...it became entirely self-serving after that and overrun by "the message".

[@HomeworkRadio]

That first season was TV gold

[@princeprocrastinate6485]

I don't think that season 2 is that hard to follow, I think a lot of people just didn't get it, and sure it isn't so simple but it's also not that complex. I never found it that difficult to keep track of the timelines in that season and I do feel they didn't make it too convoluted, however you do have to really keep track of things, it doesn't work for casual viewing, you have to be all in. Season 3 had some really great ideas and I did like the shift it took, but I feel that it just wasn't executed that well. Season 4 I thought was actually pretty good and worked as a conclusion to the show even though it wasn't intended to be. There's a lot going on but again I feel that it wasn't very convoluted and you could follow it well enough if you were paying enough attention (I honestly think it's easier to follow than season 2). I don't know if it's just me but I really didn't think Westworld was too complicated, I felt like there was a logic to things and a consistency to their storytelling. Sure it got a little dense and went in some strange directions but ultimately it never lost its core themes and internal logic (for the most part).

[@tjjones33]

westworld season 1 was one of the greatest seasons of television period. I really wish they ended at season 1

[@GPlewright]

Westworld was based on a film which was written by Michael Crichton of Jurassic Park. The tv series expanded the story and themes in intriguing and fascinating ways. Season 2 was traditionally how the story concludes - robots go bad (dinosaurs escape) - people must survive the park and escape. Lesson is - don’t try play God, you can’t control everything. Season 3 actually builds on that theme but storywise it’s very different from what came before so too different.

[@Ab3ndcgi]

Ok. A clockwork orange? Based on a novel. The shinning? Also based on the work of a bestselling thriller author. Did Kubrick follow the source material to a T, or cared for what the authors had to say about his interpretation? Heck no, he was a man with a vision and a story to tell that he'd made into his own already. And maybe precisely because of that, because he treated them like his stories; those two movies are still considered masterpieces of cinema, and have surpassed by much the cultural impact and relevance of their source material. I mean, people get interested in the work or Burgess after seeing the movie; and I don't know anyone who cares for Stepehen King's version of "the shinning" movie over Kubrick's... no matter how much they like the book. Kubrick allways delivered adaptations that were original and worked; plot wise, composittion wise, color wise, lightning wise, pacing wise, performance wise... . Spielberg also addapted Chrichton's work, quite succesfully and gainign more notoriety by carefully choosing what to include and what not; and masterfully building up the narrative tempo. Those movies work as stories on their own, without needing to know the reference material; because they are not intended as transcription. Kubrik's adaptations were as violent, thrill seeking and transgressive as any; but they were never gratuitous, oblivious to the theme, or condescending towards his audience like this show. Nolan and Joy did not need to make a "remake" of the 70's film, or a prequel. They could have, and should have told their own interpretation of the story. One that emphasized what they though had a relevant connection to the actual AI conversation and gamification of reality, if that was really their true intent. But I am not so sure about that. Cause after watching the first season, the point of the story is not "don't try to play God, you can't controll everything" at all. It's more like "DO try to play God, because violent and controlling behaviour is the mark that distingishes the truly free and self-aware übermensch and androids that rule in this fantasy world; from the peasants and disposable characters caught in their nets, unable to escape their little loops" . I don't think that was what they were going for, but that's how it turned out; like they were quite literally "playing Ford" with the fans and the source material. With no objective in mind or reason other than "why not? it would be so coool...". A subconscious "slip off", of the kind that tends to happen when you have not got the slightest clue about what you are doing, or which direction to take it in; yet you are so overconfident in your habilities, you think you can simply pull the narrative off your rear, and make it work. I can imagine Hollywood people lacking the necessary self awareness to realize how problematic it is to reduce real social issues, such as racism and imperialism; to mere fiction created for the park's guesst amusement. I can't help to point the irony that they are worried about what the series says abut AI instead. We are seeing native americans beign rounded up and "exiled from the land", hispanic towns beign turned upside down and buried quite literally by their white owners, and women of all shape and color being abused as means to get an easy reaction from us as an audience, and make the plot move on. Yet, we are simultaniously beign told that none of it matters to the plot or characters, that all that violence we are seeing has largely no consequences or implications beyond beign a "quirky set dressing", and everything is going according to a plan. We are discouraged from drawing political commentary or read more into it, because well, their story already tells us those beign victimized and stripped on screen aren't capable of beign really human. There's no real justification or reason for their vendetta, no personal motivation for their actions other than "updates", and no reason to feel sorry for them after seeing them come to life over and over again. The series speaks more about the writters lack of self awareness and gross overestimation of their own capacities and hability; than about the social issues they suposedly wanted to tackle, or the main theme in Crichton's work...

[@The_Accuser]

Seasons 3 and 4 are not such surprises, if considering that the 1976 movie Futureworld was the second part of 1973 Westworld.

[@wisnoskij]

It has been years since I watched this, but if my memory is correct Westworld the TV series was based on the Bible and told through the lens of the film of the same name. WW(film) did not inspire or provide the story philosophy or direction, it provided the theme. But the story was either a retelling of or at least heavily inspired by the Bible.

[@bobwiegers]

Yup. Season 1 was great. Season 2 was fine. The first episode of Season 3 made it very clear it would be unwatchable. I had no idea they made a Season 4.

[@Noob_Crew_Sledders]

I remember this show coming out and being hailed as HBO's next Game of Thrones. I'm not sure if maybe it was the gap from Season 1 to Season 2 but I was never able to make it out of season 2...felt like a different show

[@PanteraRossa]

People act like just because a show got cancelled it never happened. I know and am equally frustrated about great shows I've invested time into not being able to finish the story, but for what its worth, without streaming and new business opportunities lots of these ambitious projects would simply never have been made. Yes streaming is just the latest amongs the declining promise of innovation but at the same time, we have gotten so many incredibly niche and arthouse project getting hundreds of millions in budget and in front of audience numbers unimaginable in the legacy media age. People love to talk about streaming ruining everything but in reality, everything was being ruined before, streaming only allowed new voices an opportunity to be part of a crumbling building. People all of the sudden idolize the "monoculture" phenomenon as if it wasn't extremely rigged and exclusive to a specific industry apporved artists and storytellers. At least with streaming, just by definition, you're opening up more opportunities to new voices and new ideas. Yes not every film can be Avatar, but its not like in traditional legacy media there weren't instantly forgettable crap also. Creators should worry more about creating and not industry and consumer trends they literally have no control over. Worrying even for a second about where, how people will watch your final product, whether they'll pay for a ticket or subscription model, all these things have zero bearing on the artistic intent and process is a serious waste of your energy. Only the 1% top filmmakers already priviledged enough to get theatrical releases and exclusive development deals ever complain about new distribution models democratizing access to large audiences. They wanna protect their priviledge. Pure and simple. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

[@Bimmerstye1]

Season one was great. Season two was confusing AF but by the end of it, when it started to make some sense, I actually liked it. Season three was horrible. Just a bunch of badly acted fight scene's with very little storytelling. Season four however, I did like again. It had had the same vibe as season two but this time less confusing and thus more enjoyable (I’m also a sucker for post-apocalyptic scenery so that helped). I really wish they would have had the chance to make the fifth and final season to conclude it all. It’s just a shame it ended like this... 😢

[@skyguyflyinghigh]

i think many "modern" writers for movies make the mistake of thinking subverting expectations = good. so they end up pulling things out their ass just to surprise the viewer. just because it's a surprise doesn't make it not stupid, or a good character arc or not a plothole or automatically entertaining, i can pee in your cereals and that will certainly subvert your expectations of not having pee in it but i doubt you'd enjoy it, i could also subvert your expectations by adding a few drops of vanilla essence and a lil sugar and you enjoy it. we've got so obsessed with "i must subvert tropes because that's good and makes me feel/look smart" instead of "some tropes/cliches exist for a reason, because they're enjoyable, and if i want to subvert them i have to do it right, i can't automatically make my story good by diverging from things that usually make one unless im smart and want to make a critique" cliches exist for a reason, because they're fun and effective, sometimes things are mainstream because they're just good.

[@randomnobodovsky3692]

Some of the tropes exist yet still subvert expectations. E.g. fall of any good/pure person (which is as old as story of Lucifer if not older). It still works fine!

[@insertyoutubehandlenamehere]

I only finished season 1. It was awesome. That's all I know of WestWorld. I'm good with that.

[@oldskiesnewworld]

We are currently experiencing this with from season 3 😅 can't believe how both series have flopped so bad after the hype of the first seasons...

[@throwawaysupreme9400]

One massive caveat to that viewership figure is that Westworld began running on Sunday 9pm in the same slot as Game of Thrones while it was off season.

[@mischiefandmayhem8409]

For anyone who's only seen, or is planning to only watch Season 1, I'd also STRONGLY recommend Season 2 episode 8 (Kiksuya). Even if you don't watch anything else from Season 2, that episode is fantastic and builds upon Season 1's storyline. It's something of a standalone episode and you don't need to have watched the other Season 2 episodes to follow it.

[@Larry]

I hated the third season so much, I couldn't even be bothered to tune into the fourth. Ite's really one of those shows that should have nicely wrapped up in one season, like Heroes, instead of being run into the ground, like Heroes.

[@asuhdude6668]

THANK YOU. WW Season 3, in my mind, is the Worst season of all 4. It’s so bad. And that’s saying something b/c Season 4 was pretty damn bad. Like, they f*cked the show up bigtime.

[@Larry]

@@asuhdude6668 All we wanted was a show about robots going on a rampage in a theme park, how hard is it to screw a premise like that up???

[@ilexcorp]

Season 1 was deep, thought provoking, esoterical - epic. Season 2 was like Season 1 but mixed with 50% bullshit Season 3 was Jessie Pinkmans Meth Dream Season 4 idk is that abomination even exist?...

[@BuckarooBanzai84]

I dunno how accurate your "bad" -assessment of the OG 'Westworld' is, because it was very much ahead of its time in many ways, and it's still appreciated for that. Its special effects were DEFINITELY ahead of their time, and as you even pointed out, it almost was 'Terminator' before 'Terminator'! And CERTAINLY was the 'Jurassic Park' of its day! =)

[@Malum09]

Honestly I feel it suffers the “we have run out of material to adapt so we are going to make it up as we go.” Also, did you know that in the late '00s Tarantino was attached to direct a remake of the movie with Arnold Schwarzenegger as the man in black? In the end it didn’t happen because Tarantino wanted a darker take on the material but the studio didn’t.

[@Kryxx07]

A Tarantino Westworld would have been awesome.

[@marklarner4495]

@@Kryxx07 Yes it would, Is it really to late

[@Rockmanbalboa]

they could have done like the movies and each season would explore new themes in new park areas, to the last season being futureworld, i would love to see how the future imagines the future. maybe WestWorld could still be in a quarantine state with robots controlling only that area of the park, but the "infection" expanding and so we would explore new philosophies of differing scenarios and so on.

[@kdm_entertainment]

First season was a masterpiece

[@btafan11]

Meh, it's overrated. So repetitive, stretched thin, slow and self-important

[@elrojo321]

Probably I am the only one that liked the series entirely, I liked the cowboys theme on the first one, because at the time I was playing Red Dead Redemption, but the twist to the outside world an all the technology thing liked me much more, maybe because the first movie of Ghost In The Shell is one of my favorites and I always wanted to find something like that in another piece of art, all the themes about consciousness and technology and neither the manga or the anime worked for me, just Westworld and Matrix

[@nickb.235]

The show went from a poetic exercise loaded with literary references in season 1 to "murder the patriarchy" in season 2 to whatever walking corpse cosplaying as cyberpunk it became after that. I don't think it needed to stay married to a western theme, nor am I opposed to the androids rebelling, but they lost a lot of fun, fertile ground in season 2 by not exploring any of the other hosts gaining conscience and not seeing other sectors of the island.

[@Bgrosz1]

Absolutely. They needed to take the premise / story arc of season 1 and stretch it out / flesh it out. They painted themselves in a corner by having the robot uprising at the end of the first season.

[@Daniel-rp7nb]

YES! Stay in the park/s! Missed out on that. S1 could have ended with it seeming like the park controllers have got it back under control, but now it’s spilled to other areas… with a few new characters…

[@jimjam51075]

That was my takeaway halfway through the first episode of season 2. Woman robot wipes out a group of mostly men, makes a speech about oppression afterward, rinse and repeat.

[@machinations7]

I love season 2. Sure, it could be a bit convoluted with timelines and who's real and who's host, but it was also full of intriguing ideas. For example, that Westworld wasn't just a theme park for rich ppl, but also had designs on collecting data on the guests, analyzing them, generating copies of them, and predicting their behavior outside of Westworld. It explores technological/philosophical questions about whether AIs can become sentient, can love, or determine their own meaning and purpose, and season 2 plays out compelling scenarios where those things come true. And it had some of the most beautiful and artistic sequences in the entire show: Akecheta and Kohana, Akane and Sakura, Maeve and her daughter, etc. For me it really deepened the world and showed what was at stake for both humans and hosts. I still find it fascinating.

[@julius-stark]

I really liked the first season after it gets going, but season 2 onwards was so convoluted and purposefully confusing that I stopped caring.

[@raeginser9386]

There were still interesting and cool scenes and storylines. I liked the revenge of Dolores in season 3. I didn't like that the one Dolores had no memory in season 4 and the other Dolores killed herself at the end - didn't make sense for me.

[@MarcPagan]

Westworld's later seasons reminds of Fauda's 4th season - 100% filler, riding on its prior success. Thanks for a well presented but sad story.

[@rickbase833]

I'll add this......Season 1 was brilliant. Tough to follow that up. Thousands of reddit followers spent a lot of time guessing as to what was going on and it was fun for people like me who spent time on Reddit with the other fans. Even though Nolan and Joy told the Fandom that Season 1 was a prelude to the rest of the seasons......that it was so good meant the bar was set too high. I liked seasons 2 and 4 and even though season 3 was so different tonally.....it was....so-so but the narrative on AI was spot in IMO.

[@Gersheyz]

I'm one of the few loyal viewers who rewatched every previous season when a new one came out, and was hoping they would be able to finish off their final season. The entire series was pretty much planned from the beginning, and even though many people gave up on it, it would have been nice to see where all of the twists were leading up to. Game of Thrones failed in it's final seasons because they didn't have anymore source material to pull from and focused heavily on subverting expectations instead of paying off established threads and stories that were setup. They were given essentially a blank check to keep going, even though D and D were running it into ground and wanted to kill it off so they could go work on other projects. Westworld was much more intentional and rewarded people who wanted to follow along with actual payoffs. Studio execs cared more about viewership numbers than actually letting a planned ending take it's course and let them finish their meticulous philosophical story. I understand they saw it as a monetary loss, but they killed the artistic saga right as it was on it's final season.

[@The_Accuser]

People forget there was a 1976 movie Futureworld base on the previous 1973 Westworld.

[@alkohal]

I felt like season 4 was on its way to course correction and then CANCELLED

[@Notsosweetstevia]

Never bothered to watch season 4. Don’t think I ever will

[@throwawaysupreme9400]

It was actually pretty decent. Some interesting technological ideas with stylised execution.

[@Camw101]

It was good until the very end

[@ChaosAndChill]

Ngl I forgot there was a season 4 I thought it ended at 3 😂

[@BCWasbrough]

Westworld slowly transforming itself into The Matrix was fascinating to watch. Shame they couldn't stick the landing.

[@jonnnnniej]

I'm just now finding out there's a 4th season 🙈

[@pelgervampireduck]

I hated season 2 so much I lost all interest and I was surprised to find out "what? there was a season 3 and 4?".

[@somewittyfella5118]

There's also the matter of how a Reddit user figured out where the story was going and the creative duo had to redo their entire plan for the rest of the series. Which to me is just silly. If we're really gonna start allowing the internet to dictate storytelling like this, then why tell the story at all?

[@Letsplay222]

And if the entire selling point of the show is that it has some unpredictable "mind-blowing" twist, maybe the show doesn't have anything worthwhile to say anyways?

[@Henchman1977]

Same problem as Game of Thrones, too many branches, not enough trunk. GOT managed to prune the tree to wrap up the series but left a lot of dead ends.

[@NitroMorrison17]

They had crapton of money for season one and a small fraction of that in season 4. The show was killed by greed first and foremost. Seasons 3 and 4 is what you get when a big budget concept gets cut.

[@MrHadane]

To me the worst thing was how Dolores character flipped 180 degrees from this adventurous, romantic persona to a senseless murderbot.

[@truejim]

I think the series needed a smarter over-arching structure for the plot, even if that meant leaving some characters behind. Like: Season 1 is about the hosts gaining sentience; Season 2 is about society in general responding intelligently to this unforeseen development, and about the park owners specifically responding to the fact that their intended plans are now at risk; while at the same time the hosts try to learn what the real-world is, and try to figure out what to do with all their non-sentient brethren (should they try to activate them?); Season 3 is about all these various groups coming into conflict (society in general, park owners, sentient hosts, non-sentient hosts), either overtly (which would have been expensive to film) or covertly (which would have required some suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewers). INSTEAD what we got was a rubbish plot written in service to existing characters, rather than characters developed to serve a sensible plot. I would LOVE to watch the show that could-have-been.

[@assassinscreed8597]

I enjoyed season 2 and the ‘soft reboot’ of season 3, season 4 fell way off for me though. It’s a shame they cancelled it, apparently season 5 would have been the last so finishing the project would’ve been satisfying, but I understand how it fell away like it did.

[@caseyleichter2309]

I adored Westworld, and would have kept watching for as many seasons as they wanted to make. The themes they explored and the way they explored them... the writing, acting, directing, set design were all excellent (particularly considering they had to regroup in a hurry after the set was destroyed). BUT - and it is a big but - Season 4 was a continuity disaster and didn't fit with what we had learned previously. It was like the creators ran out of ideas and decided to do essentially a reboot of Season 1, "Oppressed v. Oppressors," just with the roles of humans and hosts reversed as to who was doing the oppressing. I mean, you could make a definite case for why this would be an important theme to explore, but it came out of nowhere in terms of the previous seasons' arcs. So I do feel the creators went from having a planned arc to just winging it. One example, and something that continues to bother me, is the post-credits scene for Season 2, where The Man in Black is undergoing a fidelity test from an android version of his daughter, makes no sense in retrospect once we see the denouement of his character at the end of Season 4.

[@Lenahadita]

I think is a masterpiece enterely . Except for the fact that Dolores only took copies of herself to the real world, and not copies of other characters from past seasons which felt like everyone plot were totally ruined except for her and Maeve. The bad thing is that there wont be a 5 season to end it as it deserves Everybody should watch this series because its just not about a series is about humankind and clues about where are we going as a species.

[@Caliban_80]

Season 1 was one of the best of any series I've seen.

[@charles24852]

With the release and success of the fallout series I wouldn't be surprised if HBO re thinks letting them finish westworlds story. Season 4 is underrated in my opinion and felt a return to form of the likes of Season 1 and the final season could be amazing given the ending of season 4.

[@Hazard2005]

Overall I really did enjoy the series but looking back, Season 1 was the shows peak. Would have loved to have seen a season 5 still though.

[@JoeSnodgrassworks]

I actually think that the writing was on the wall in the first season alone. There's a lot of great stuff about it and it was one of my favorite seasons of any show ever. And while the Man in Black two different times plot line was a great first season device, the mystery of the maze really wasn't. Probably not a popular opinion. It's not unlike Netflix's 1899 season 1 ending. Despite the fact that we might trust it's writers based off the success of Dark to take it to the next level, the reveal at the end was a big "so what" let down. A lot of what was explored over seasons 2-4 of Westworld was good fodder. And complicated plot lines are okay, I think. But you have to seed them well from the beginning. This is what works so well for Netflix's Dark. Everything you need to start your journey happens in the first season. It shows the writers knew what they were doing from the beginning.

[@carrisebear3499]

We wanted a Jurassic Park/ Westworld tie-in. That would have fixed the stale, how-will-they-escape-the-park nature by introducing a repetitive plot structure that works.

[@chris.shamblin]

I remember during the development of the first season, they announced that they were re-tooling the back half of the season to have a faster pace, among other changes...and you can really tell. I think the first half of the first season is some of the best television that HBO (or any network, for that matter) has ever made, but the back half feels different and fails to live up to it. So, I don't think the first season as a whole is as perfect as people think, nor do I think the problems started with the second season. The problems started after just a few episodes.

[@ericlarson7556]

Lost the West in Westworld and the series fell soon after. This self contained story narrative in season 1 pales in comparison to the series losing the western roots. Robots and westerns. It works for a passionate niche audience that I am proud to be part of.

I'll save you 8 minutes. Q: What went wrong? A: The writing.

[@atomicsmith]

Season one was writing HUGE conceptual checks. Season two and beyond, they all bounced. Also, Hopkins in season one was amazing. Maybe one of his best performances in my opinion. There was no way to top that…

[@leulteferi1973]

Incredible video, love how you weave different narratives/ideas

[@comradecid]

tldr: season 1 told its story, ending its arc gracefully. then, someone couldn't help but squeeze blood from a stone, and the results were inevitably disappointing.

[@brysonfreeman7226]

Yes, should’ve left the show after Season 1

[@GraphicJ]

Season 1 of Westowrld is the only Westworld in my head. Great time seeing it. Anything after that was just upsetting.

[@hyperborean.]

I didn't even know that there was a season 4 till now.

[@HaydenCanning]

Season 1 proved to be absolutrly amazing viewing. I have some very fond memories of this show! The acting was so so good.

[@pafnutiytheartist]

Honestly I was blown away by the first season. I dropped the second on episode 3. The general quality, dialogue, acting, direction was just not on point.