when two directors adapt the same book

[@ArcherGreen]

What other directors could make an interesting Dune adaptation?

[@dreat1527]

picture this - Greta Gerwig's Dune

[@luker2693]

Peter Jackson (in his prime)

[@ammomusic5319]

david fincher, darren arronofsky, the wachowkis, guillermo del toro, alex garland. Or give david lynch or jodorowsky another chance. Also in the anime field i could see Satoshi Kon or hideaki anno. If we did get another dune adaptation I think it should be something unique, either animation or a significantly more psychedelic live action project. After messiah we could maybe get a chance of seeing another directors vision, whether as more movies or maybe a series.

[@sam4secretary]

Dune is a story set in the politics of the elite-- could definitely see a Gurney Halleck Broadway show exploring the limits of being a poet soldier (with the balliset!)

[@BartholomewChinen]

@@dreat1527Fuck No

[@FrozenRoxas]

Mad respect for Lynch for being so open and honest about it, and transparent about why things turned out the way they did

[@robotube7361]

Lynch is a guy who admits his wrongdoings and lives with them. Other directors either sell out or just pretend their mistakes are intentional or not theirs and never blame themselves. Lynch did blame the studio and others but most importantly blamed himself for selling out.

[@dalegaliniak607]

​@@rinkydinkfretboard8737 I get the impression that what the critics didn't like about the movie was actually a fair bit of the stuff Lynch had control over. The movie DOES feel very Lynch, though I would say that there is a bit of a tonal clash. The movie is very surreal, and includes a number of bizarre body-horror type elements, and very detailed intricate sets, but Lynch typically makes that work by making the whole work feel weird and dreamlike. My guess is that part of the problem is that the studio also wanted a typical sci-fi blockbuster, so it forced those elements in too, which just made the Lynch parts seem very kitschy. However, I do like it a lot, for all the reasons you said. It's over the top and silly, and very fun to watch.

[@javkiller]

There's so much good artistry in his version though! The set designs, the wardrobe, the model filming, the matte paintings! And that soundtrack, my god. Like, I really dug Zimmer's soundtrack for the new one, but I would be lying if I said it stuck with me in the first movie. But I still to this day, the TOTO soundtracks is just.... instant chills, man. It's something else. If villeneuve's version is a picture perfect example of restraint, then Lynch's is what happens when you go balls to the wall passion, fuck everything else. I only wish we could've gotten the Jodorowsky one.

[@cyborgchicken3502]

​@@rinkydinkfretboard8737 I watched both the Lynch version and the Denis version, while I do think the Denis is better in terms of cinematic experience, storytelling and film making, I will admit that I also enjoyed Lynch's version, and I honestly feel that is okay... It's okay to like both and I don't know why there always has to be a contest between the 2 versions.....when I first watched Lynch's version, the practical effects blew me away because they were so impressive for their time... The newer film uses a combination of both CGI and practical effects or rather uses CGI to enhance the practical effects.... The first half of the Lynch was awesome, it's the second half where things started to feel a bit off because it was rushed and their interpretation of the Weirding Way was really odd....but over all it was still a pretty solid 80s Sci fi movie

[@cyborgchicken3502]

​@@dalegaliniak607 the over the top and silly also fits within the time period, almost every Sci fi or action film from the 80s was over the top and silly, just look at films like The Predator or Terminator, even Star Wars: The Empire Strikes back which came out in the same era was also over the top.... So for its time Lynchs Dune is awesome, it's a solid 80s Sci fi film.... But I don't think generations of today would be able to relate to it or enjoy it as much as Denis' Dune, Denis Dune is for the modern 21st century film goer where as Lynchs Dune fit right into the culture and aesthetic of the 80s and obviously would appeal more to older millennial film goers because it was made in their time

[@Nanhabby123]

I liked how you included those interviews with lynch. It seems like it really bothered him how they handled his movie. Great video

[@DrAhzek]

Anyone would be bothered with how someone other than you butchers your work. I doubt Lynch’s movie would be a timeless classic but it wouldnt be a bad movie if they gave him a chance. I mean, it is somewhat iconic (thanks to its surreal depictions) despite being in a hell of a state.

[@kevinc8955]

Yeah, but the weirdo over the top scenes in the movie are pure Lynch. There’s pacing problems for sure, but the bigger problems is the campiness.

[@Trazynn]

Lynch blaming it all on the editing is weak. He was being callous, he thought he didn't need screenwriters and attempted to use the book as the screenplay.

[@DrAhzek]

@@kevinc8955 As I said - it wouldnt be a timeless classic but it could be a decent movie. Problem with surreal ideas (be it in movies, games, books, art) is that they need to be implemented in full to be "watchable" and offer any value. Otherwise, it is just a quirky attempt of doing gods-know what.

[@acksawblack]

@@Trazynn portraying it as him blaming it all on editing is reductive and doesn’t recognise him as an artist. It’s much more that others doing the editing takes his voice away. If he edited the film and it was terrible it would still be upsetting but as an artist he could still recognise it as his vision. It’s like creating a presentation then at the end your boss says a random coworker gets to cut random sections while you are to be judged as the sole creator. Your own work might have been just as bad but it was still your work and your mistakes.

[@timy9197]

This feels more like “when studios get in the way” than it is a comparison between two different directors styles

[@theviniso]

Time also plays a part here. Lynch's version came out over 30 years earlier and he didn't have the technology Denis has.

[@ivoryowl]

@@theviniso 1984 was 40 years ago, not 30.

[@theviniso]

@@ivoryowl I did say over 30.

[@Archedgar]

@@ivoryowl You got pwn'd.

[@robwebnoid5763]

For the Lynch version, it wasn't the studio's fault, it was more like the producer/distributor, who controlled the budget & logistics. The production house (Universal) was the one who cut the movie down to its final decided 2.25 hours, rather than staying with the 3-4 hours it was planned for. Actually Dune 1984 was initially planned to be 2 or 3 separate movies during the preplanning stages in the late 1970's after Jodorowsky's project/version got canned. Villeneuve's 2021 version REDEEMS the movie splitting idea that the 1984 version did not get to have due to production meddling, because again, the production house controlled a lot of things. As someone said earlier, progressing movie technology played a big role. In 1984, mature realistic 3D CGI wasn't a thing yet, so they had to use a lot of human resource to create stage backdrops. This includes carpenters, masons, electricians, ironworks, stuff like that, not to mention the supplies (lumber, steel etc) required. Plus the aforementioned time put in to build all that. Had they used CGI, the production budget could have been relatively smaller & thus budget would have been less of a concern for the producer. That is why modern movies use CGI more than traditional construction, to overcome expense in both time & supply. This includes scale modeling, like using digital spaceships in CAD instead of plastic models. There was also a slight delay because Ridley Scott had to bow out as initial director, so that is why they brought in Lynch as a next/secondary choice. Gurney's main actor also had to be fired (alcoholism), so they brought in Patrick Stewart as a last-minute replacement, thanks to Lynch who spotted Patrick at a theater play he was doing, iirc. You could say that David helped jump-start Patrick's career even moreso in Hollywood, since we now know Patrick as Picard & Professor X... and of course also the 1st live-action Gurney. It was a serendipitous fluke or destiny for Stewart, perhaps. 04/21/24

[@Dustz92]

Dennis: "We built the box as described in the book". The book: "green box"

[@Alpha23TV]

lol…

[@pakaru1638]

You aren't color blind, are you? It's a very old box, with hints of green, look at the top of it.

[@pebsiburbger]

The book also describes it as metal with one black open side. So he probably just went for a darker green that's been used and is now tarnished, similar to how silver will turn black when tarnished.

[@D123-f9k]

@@pebsiburbger There is more to it than the physical description. The new version better communicates the dread he felt when looking at it

[@TJ_ax]

I think what sets Timothee’s portrayal above Kyle’s is AFTER he takes the Water of Life. He becomes an entirely different person, while in ‘84 he doesn’t seem to change.

[@AveChristusRex789]

Very true. Paul goes from being a boy to a man with Timothee’s portrayal

[@gottesurteil3201]

​@@AveChristusRex789disagree. Nothing he can do will make him seem like a man.

[@user-re6xt2xf3k]

​@@AveChristusRex789 It's not boy to man, but human to inhuman

[@cthulawha]

in the book the change is subtle also, he becomes more of what he is not a different person

[@Battle_One]

They way changes after taking the water of life really changes the context of the story.

[@BillGunslinger]

Man, I really don't like seeing Lynch talk about his Dune. It is still hurting him, an unhealed scar, you can feel the sadness on his voice. It must be very painful when you try so hard to bring your vision to the world but then everything goes wrong.

[@pendragon0905]

Every artist's worst nightmare.

[@Tommy1977777]

Lynch was betrayed.

[@Lyonessi]

​@@Tommy1977777 Care to explain?

[@Tommy1977777]

@Lyonessi lynch explains it better but basically he was signed on with one set of promises but as production continued the tools he was promised were slowly taken away (funding/script cuts,crunch time reductions, etc).

[@rezaallahyarzadeh967]

honestly I liked the lynch dune a lot, as it was nostalgic for me, but after hearing him so mad about it. I feel strange.

[@casedistorted]

In Dune 2 the worm riding scene shook the entire theater, it was a once in a lifetime experience I will remember. It was like riding a sandworm in the theaters, I loved it.

[@mattwood1977]

That was an incredible scene. I don't remember the last time (if there ever was one) a film made me feel the way that scene did. It reminded me a lot of trying to catch a big wave while surfing (im not a very good surfer). Seeing this unstoppable mountain of water rushing towards you and a part of you wanting to slip into panic while another part knows that if you hesitate you'll just get crushed by the wave. So you paddle with all your might and when you feel the wave take you and you know you're riding it, that feeling of dread turns into pure joy and relief. Such an awesome movie

[@arijeanz]

​@@slyisdanameyesss, i just watched it last night!! theater was about half full, i think most people were going in for a rewatch and so the vibe was really chill. lots of laughs during the funny bits and cheers during the serious and exciting bits

[@DeWyzeOne149]

we saw it regular already but going again this weekend to see it in imax, i can not wait! this omment makes me even more antsy to see it

[@jg6972]

Yea, it's was the most amazing experience I have ever had in cinema. I'm so happy having seen both parts on an IMAX screen. I realised after, that the mix of so many talented people, technology, source material of this quality and enough money to pull it off won't happen again in many years.

[@KonguZya]

I didn't understand how a regular theater like I was in was able to use audio to such a visceral impact. Pretty amazing.

[@JuzefaWingedCat]

I think that the new dune could not have existed without the old one. It's like it was studied and improved upon, and therefore both movies feel really cool to me and I respect both directors, actors and all the people who stood behind the making of them.

[@johnran6015]

There's a boatload of little easter egg nods to Lynch's Dune throughout both of the new movies, pretty fun to look for.

[@jennymcelligott]

Denis said he has not watched any other adaptations, actually.

[@johnran6015]

@@jennymcelligott ahhskully

[@jennymcelligott]

@@johnran6015sarcasm isn’t necessary.

[@FarFromtheSuns]

...the old movie wasn't studied and improved on... the new movie just respects the tone of the source material whereas Lynch's version just doesn't. Lynch could have been given twice the runtime and that movie still would have been bad. Dune is not body horror and it's not surrealist. Lynch should never have been given that project and never should have accepted it. Having said that, I will concede that restricted to 2h17m, no director could have done a good job. Too many things happen in Dune for that, and pretty much all of those things are important to the tone and plot of the story.

[@artcamp7]

the sets of the 1980's dune are pretty magnificent though. and they had max von Sydow

[@davidpinnington213]

I watched DV’s 1and2 back to back last week and my wife loved them so I dusted of DL’s version the day after which to my 60 year old memory of the 80’s and the book bother of which I’d not seen/read for 20 years I found although the pre cgi looks a bit creaky and the sets now read more watching Dune in a theatre I still find Lynch’s version despite the hamstringing superior. The latest is certainly more spectacle but the lack of thought narration and maybe because I’ve spent a good few years in the Arab states working remote a lot of what I saw in DV’s vision was just a little too easy

[@danfors1333]

Only reason everyone hated 1984 version was that the story was impossible to understand in such short runtime. There is an alternate cut that is one hour longer and much better.

[@adrianmizen5070]

@@rest9661 I agree.. and if you told me 5 years ago that a 5+ hour version of Dune would manage to cover less of the story than the 2 hour version, I would have laughed, but here we are.

[@JonathanVachon777]

yah, there is a few scene that is better in the 80s version. like the worm riding or when Paul becomes the leader. you feel more the millions of people standing in the huge corridor and ready for the war in the 80s one

[@jonstfrancis]

I feel that people criticising the special effects are wrong.. they worked for the time; it looked awesome as did the costumes. Geidi Prime was awesome too as an industrial hell.

[@SubkhanSarif]

Old Paul: “PAIN…” New Paul: 😬😫😖😠😡 (🎵aaahaa🎵)

[@pointblank2890]

Okay now please summarize other iconic scenes using emojiis. Thank you.

[@heavenly_haori1725]

Funny since Timothee screamed in pain originally, the footage is in the first dune 2021 trailer but it was cut it.

[@SubkhanSarif]

@@heavenly_haori1725 scream in pain vs scream the word PAIN to show the pain is two different thing

[@Not_a_Lizard_]

@@SubkhanSarif You can't have your characters state how they feel! That makes me feel angry! (Edit: This is a Futurama reference, you clowns. I'm not defending the pain scream.)

[@johnsaker1]

​@@Not_a_Lizard_if you character needs to shout "pain" to convoy pain then it's a bad directing

[@PhattyBolger]

I don't think the guild navigators actually fold spacetime themselves, they just use the spice to foresee a path so the ships can do it without crashing.

[@jonstfrancis]

I agree, if I remember right it's the mentat ability to foresee myriad paths and conclusions, so the spice enables them to choose safer routes

[@Mostexcellant69Dude]

@@jonstfrancis yeah you're absolutely correct, they don't actually fold space themselves. I just looked up what does fold space, The heighliners use the "Holtzman" effect to instantly travel. it's said to be similar technology to the shields they use, so maybe they somehow invert their shields? it's never explained in great detail

[@jonstfrancis]

@@Mostexcellant69Dude that's really interesting, I guess somehow that enables the highliners to smooth their way? So there is absolutely no resistance? Or does it do more than that to speed their way?

[@Doliios]

They see future and find the way they won't die, just like muaddib see his way to the jihad, and then golden way.

[@TheErockaustin]

Yes, the holtzman generators are what folds space. The navigators used their prescience to guide the folding. Before the navigators, a high percentage of ships were lost whenever they folded space.

[@Joshua-xr9ux]

"get out of myyy miiinnnndddd" got me lol

[@Elliesbow]

old school acting was so cringe and bad

[@Firmus777]

​@@Elliesbow No, it was epic and good.

[@ScottTorrance31]

@@Firmus777 Bro is trippin'

[@kael13]

Get out of my head, Charrrrles!!

[@DunceCapSyndrome]

@@ScottTorrance31 He's obviously trolling.

[@heeroheero8844]

The sound of the The Voice on KZbin doesn't do it justice. In the Theater that scene (and also when it is used in Dune 2) sounds more sinister, chilling, and reverberates right into your bones. Masterclass sound editing and design.

[@LuisSierra42]

Real, when he said that, everyone in my theater literally screamed, as if it were an action scene

[@coin777]

its not youtube its you speakers

[@LazzyVamples]

@@coin777 It's both. KZbin has audio compression that ruins some of the design. The compression is a lot better than it used to be, but it's still always going to be inferior to the source.

[@progmrz5512]

@@coin777 You’d be surprised how much KZbin screws your own audio. It’s the reason why editing became a chore nowadays, not only you have to script and edit a video, you have to take in audio so KZbin doesn’t accidentally screw your audio.

[@coin777]

@@progmrz5512 no it does not. It's sounds good

[@aerynstormcrow]

If we are comparing Dune to Star Wars. Paul is Anakin, not Luke.

[@silasschwehn]

Yes, sadly

[@Kingedwardiii2003]

@@silasschwehnsadly? I’m tired of good guy vs bad guy movies I like the grim reality of dune and warhammer. The “good” characters are characters that would be seen in movies like Star Wars while the evil characters are undoubtedly evil

[@Rauruatreides]

Only difference is that his kid is more like if Luke said, "In order to fix my father's mistakes, I gotta become an even worse monster."

[@Mostexcellant69Dude]

@@Kingedwardiii2003 ambiguous morality from Jesus' space Hitler

[@ryanmcamis7419]

Incorrect. Paul was afraid not just of the Jihad, but of starting down the Golden Path. The galactic cleansing of the Jihad was only step one. Step two was to endure a radical mutation into a human-sandworm hybrid and subjugate humanity for 3500 years as a tyrant (the God Emperor). He would rule until finally orchestrating his own death to break humans of their addiction to spice and have them scatter throughout the universe. No longer content to ever be controlled by one substance or one man. Paul's son, Leto II was strong enough. Paul is ultimately killed by his own sister, Alia of the knife who succumbed to possession from The memories of Baron Harkonnen. She became an abomination. That's why the Bene Gesserit fear the preborn: those who unlock their ancestral memories in the womb. Generations of memories viying to seize control of you. Alia redeems herself by slitting her own throat. Jessica has to bury both her children, then watch her grandchildren implement the Golden Path. Leto II and Ghanima succeed where Paul, Chani, Leto, and Jessica fail.

[@heckinmemes6430]

"I have smoked your Bong'Jabbar, now you will smoke from mine."

[@fernhausluv44]

~ ~ # # [F] OUTTA HERE OLD-HEAAADDD!!!!1!!!!! # # ~ ~

[@tamnam5722]

Two great Gangs: The Atreedes, and the Harkrackheads

[@robertcampbell3019]

Keefshats Hasherack

[@cannotroll]

"I see grass within your pants."

[@froddobaggins]

​@@tamnam5722 The Muad'Doob.

[@Pinkstarclan]

thank you for showing lynch's interviews instead of just blaming him for all the movie's faults. too many people are quick to blame a single person in the process (a director, an actor) for everything they hate in a bad production, when it's rarely their fault.

[@Leonidas04052]

it's almost like reality is always more complex than what our primitive ape brains can comprehend. sad that so many people still don't get this.

[@cainabel6356]

I actually like Lynch's version better. There are parts I liked in the new version as well. I just do not like the new Chani version. I think it destroys the book's character.

[@Pinkstarclan]

@@cainabel6356 tbh I have no horse in this race bc idk dune, but like looking at Lynch's version better, it's more visually interesting

[@bobbwc7011]

Stop defending Lynch. His movie was bad, then he blames the studio. He plays the victim after he fucked up. All his footage is inferior filmmaking. And he did not get Dune at all.

[@bobbwc7011]

​@@cainabel6356 Movie Chani is a huge improvement.

[@DongusMcBongus]

Man, I really wish I could see David Lynch’s fully realized version. The man is a genius and gives the best interviews of any director.

[@CameronM1138]

Watch the Spicediver fan edit, it's a least a lot closer to that than the official version is.

[@MorseAttack]

spicedriver dune is free on youtube ;)

[@damondoran3945]

Well it turned out to be a classic so it did ok lol

[@ChristopherKennethOakley]

​@@CameronM1138 Excellent version which explains a lot watch it first as a primer for Denis Villeneuve's version.

[@Dtitilator]

Politicians give the best interviews when they cover their shortcomings with grandiose ideals people/fans want to hear.

[@Darkside_1994]

It's not a remake! It's the newest adaptation of the best selling sci-fi book of all time.

[@Dookieman1975]

U just described a remake

[@morgumal]

​​@@Dookieman1975 No, remake would imply that the new movie is based on the old movie, which is not true. They are just based on the same source material. It would be like saying Peter Jackson's LOTR is a remake of the animated movie from the 70s.

[@radiokilled4790]

​@@Dookieman1975there's a difference between a movie that gets a remake and a book that receives a second film adaptation because the first didn't do it justice. Please for the love of god learn some words for the sanity of everyone on the Internet.

[@dagyn1887]

And you’d put that in the title or Remake ? Lmao

[@rhs_0938]

​@@morgumalagain, u just described a remake

[@_Feyd-Rautha]

You can really feel the pain in Lynches voice. Shame we never got to see his vision

[@MCCrleone354]

We might. VERY recently, Lynch said he’s open to seeing the footage he shot to see if it’s salvageable.

[@chadicuschaximus1071]

Hey Feyd-Rautha, I sent my girlfriend to work for you a few weeks ago, and I haven't heard back. Any idea what's going on?

[@Dumitaz]

@@chadicuschaximus1071 the fuck

[@cheezdoodle96]

​@@MCCrleone354 That's the best news I've ever heard! Fingers crossed something will come of it! 🤞

[@_Feyd-Rautha]

@@chadicuschaximus1071 you know my darlings get hungry when we go on long trips. We've been going on a lot of long trips lately.

[@benjaminodonnell258]

The way Chalomet's expression turns in the Gom Jabar scene is spine chilling. He doesn't just endure the pain (longer than any former subject RM Gohim has tested), he embraces it and uses it as fuel for a hatred that will come back to haunt her later...

[@two_face]

Beautiful media literacy, those who declare 1980 Dune to be superior don't possess such ability

[@AnnatarCarvour]

His grandmother lol Abomination

[@Rootiga]

@@two_face "media literacy" is a term used by apes to make themselves feel better than everyone else

[@sastaassh1112]

Garbage movie with garb timoee

[@two_face]

@@sastaassh1112 weak criticism

[@DrAhzek]

The greatest crime of cinematography is how they treated Lynch's vision. It could be a good movie but it wasn't allowed to be by the tops, forcing a lot of bizarre decisions to be made. The one thing that I liked about it were the costumes and the imperial court baroque style. It really felt grand and alien in a lot of ways.

[@BillGunslinger]

Sadly there are a lot of stories of studios destroying good movies back in the day. For me the greatest crime is Once Upon A Time In America from Sergio Leone. Scorsese helped restore some of it, but 2 hours of the movie are missing.

[@o-wolf]

Lynch stans are the biggest COPE merchants ever 😂 He made a STINKER, the execs mightve made that stinker a little worse but it was still a stinker

[@maxgonzalez214]

true. sadly it does not off set the horrible acting.

[@geraltofrivia4107]

But in the end, Dennis came with the new adaptation and it felt more grand and alien than Lynch's version ever was.

[@anthonymartensen3164]

​@@o-wolfno need to go after Lynch stans as if it's a bad thing. This is considered his only real misfire in a filmography of films that all feel more authentic.

[@Raemnant]

I cant help but still really like Lynch's Dune, even if he himself hates it. It has so many iconic, meme-able and quotable moments

[@blad...]

I like it more. Timothee ruins new Dune for me. I feel like it's easily his worst role/acting. I think he does a fantastic job in all other roles I've seen him in but idk man he just doesn't fit here.

[@ShakaCthulu]

Lynch only hates it because he was removed from the editing process & then screwed with by MCA/Universal. He was excited to use the assembly footage to make a director’s cut but they wouldn’t wait for him to finish Wild At Heart.

[@maxamalicious]

@@blad...The character he is portraying is meant to evolve as the saga goes on, he is not really complete as a character yet

[@Neil-qg9cw]

​@blad... Idk what you guys are talking about. He absolutely killed the role of Paul. This coming from someone who thinks Timothy is in far too many films atm, but this one was earned.

[@blad...]

@@Neil-qg9cw If he killed the role of Paul then Paul is a poor character. Timothee just gives this aura of bland. Like a mindless ape always gaping at nothing for a large portion. He's just not enjoyable to watch in this film.

[@seeingeyegod]

When I die I want to open my eyes to a space scene with a giant floating 1984 Virginia Madsen head giving me universe exposition.

[@azmodanpc]

Lynch sure as hell knows how to cast gorgeous actresses. Denis, eh, not so much. I mean, I really liked Ana de Armas for Joi and his version of Irulan is spot on but I prefer Virginia any day.

[@VictorIV0310]

@@azmodanpcBalam Industries sponsored field trip.

[@bunnyofdoom4501]

She was so 🔥 as irulan. The new chich looks like a pug

[@kentocogburn4553]

@@azmodanpc Ever seen Zendaya?

[@cannotroll]

@@azmodanpc Pugh looks like the girl next door rather than a product of 90 generations of genetic engineering like Virginia Madsen.

[@inshrektorgadget1546]

Villenueve won me over when Paul and his mother ran up the hill to see the city burning. The twice pan over the hill for each character both delivered the initial view for each character, it also served as a double take for we the audience to be shook about the destruction the Harkonnens are capable of. Amazing film.

[@VirgiltheChicken]

Poor David Lynch. I remember people just tearing his Dune apart when there is a lot to like about it, even if overall it is too compressed to be good. Still worth a watch for the art direction alone IMO.

[@ggroombr]

There is nothing good about Lynch’s version. The entire premise of the story in the book is thrown out the window in the first scene with the Navigator demanding of the emperor to kill Paul… I’m mean c’mon.

[@FoxdevilswildUnic]

@@ggroombr You're talking story tho. OP talked about art direction. Two very different things.

[@lunaticyoshi1]

Although I like the new Dune, I still prefer David Lynch's style and vision. I would have loved to see what Lynch could have done with the franchise, had it not been for the heavy handed studio interference.

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

Back in the 1980s, pre-Lord of the Rings, movies were rarely greenlit to be 3+ hours long, unless it was some epic sword and sandals or Bible movie like _Cleopatra_ or _Ben Hur". The Director's Cut of the 1984 version is over 4 hours long, that was considered mind-blowing back then.

[@providencebreaker1558]

@@ggroombr There's nothing in the that scene that contradicts the book in anyway. It does nothing but improve the story. Having read it again, the book feels inadequate without it.

[@rafaeltavares6928]

Dude had to tell the story with no time for details. He did great

[@xandermantheman6212]

The reason there’s a lot of internal dialogue in the first iteration is because that’s how the book is literally written. You’ll be reading two character talking to each other and then suddenly you’re just reading what they’re thinking for multiple pages with them explaining everything in detail to give exposition. The world and story of Dune is cool but reading it wasn’t enjoyable (for me at least) Edit: I want to make it clear I don’t agree with Lynch’s direction. Just wanted to give context for his decisions

[@Neil-qg9cw]

Yes, but the point is that works in a book, but not in a 'show, don't tell' format like film. It can work with restraint but in 1984 it's a crutch to dump exposition due to time constraints.

[@xandermantheman6212]

⁠@@Neil-qg9cw Agreed. Just wanted to explain the reason why Lynch’s movie is told that way

[@projectcapsule]

that's a dumb reason. the point of it being a movie is it being told in an entirely different medium

[@nandezification]

I don’t think the person who made this video actually read the book, he just made the video probably to help promote the movie. This is why he shits on the old movie so much.

[@koalabrownie]

Yes it's not the only book to do that. I recently read Honor Harrington and the novel will drop 3 pages of internal backstory in the middle of a conversation. Absolutely terrible way to convey story. When it comes to novels, it's often better when the internal voice is hidden from the reader so that they can always wonder about a character's true feelings or intentions.

[@adarcus4053]

I think the most important point is that Denis Villeneuve was inspired by both his love for the source material and the 84 movie. He even talks about how he was so excited to see it. Even if some of the stylistic choices didn't align with how he felt the film should be made He talked about how inspiring it was to see.

[@victorhurwitz5559]

Very interesting.

[@eyjay1508]

I wonder if it was his love for the source material that made him butcher liet's character.

[@adarcus4053]

@@eyjay1508 so you focus on the single gender swapped character who dies half way into the 1st movie and the multiple other larger more problematic changes to the story.

[@eyjay1508]

@@adarcus4053 Liet is one of the most important characters in the entire narrative. He's responsible for the fanaticism of the fremen and the terraformation of arrakis. And its not just liet, Dennis butchered multiple things, turning channi into a girlboss, making the fremen egalitarian feminists, cutting the baron from the narrative down by 90%, making the voice literal mind control and making jessica from a deuteragonist to an auxiliary character just to name a few.

[@Rootiga]

@@adarcus4053 theres not any "problematic" changes lol

[@SirsasthNigam.]

Villenueve stated, “I was very excited when I learned that the book would be brought to the screen. I remember watching the movie and being very mesmerized and impressed by how David Lynch approached it. I was destabilized by some of his choices. Yeah, David Lynch has a very strong identity as a filmmaker, of course, and it bled into the - it’s a fantastic interpretation of the book. But there were some choices that were made that was very far away from my sensibility. I remember watching the movie thinking to myself, ‘Someday, someone else will do it again in the future. It will happen.’ Because I didn’t feel that he captured some of the essence of, specifically, the Fremen culture - I felt that there was some things that were missing. That’s the nature of adaptation, you know?”

[@Crowbars2]

13:41 - "This is how Lynch shows his pain" **cut to Paul literally screaming "THE PAIN!"**

[@someguy4405]

Most subtly edited video essay

[@elcar659]

it feels like when shakespeare characters die and say “i have been slain” or smt

[@darthadipose1920]

@@elcar659 He has killed me, Mother. Run away, I beg you!

[@SirToaster9330]

to be fair, that's how most people express pain

[@dr.strangelove5708]

@@someguy4405 pain is not subtle, not at that level.

[@trev9168]

The pain in that man’s face when he tells the fremen to “lead them to paradise “

[@HarrisBoe]

I really love the editing at the beginning of this video. The sort of chaotic back-and-forth jumping between the two adaptations.

[@tianm740]

This is a great comparison video. I especially like how you included the interview with Lynch, he deserved so much better.

[@rkwiseman]

You can honor the source material and still have two completely different films. Bravo on the analysis.

[@Rannos22]

Denis didn't honor the source material, his version of Chani is awful and ruins his adaptation

[@SirToaster9330]

Lynch didn't honor the source material, literally the main part of Dune was the world being sci-fi yet archaic in nature, which isn't Lynch's version, he replaced the knives and martial arts with literal guns!

[@ano_nym]

@@Rannos22 Thank you. As someone put it: "book Chani was ride or die." Felt like they just wanted to force some extra conflict there.

[@roshango125ab]

I really feel for David Lynch. He recently said he refuses to watch the new movies, not because he has anything against them, but because it still hurts him that he never got to make the movie he wanted to make and the new movies will only remind him of what could've been

[@dr.strangelove5708]

I will tell David Lynch do not worry your characters shine a lot better than Dennis's ever will with the possible exceptions of Paul, Jessica and Gurney.

[@matthewbacque1622]

Lynch made Dune when he was about 37 years old.. Villeneuve was 53 when he made it. Lynch had the will of a young man, Denis had the vision of an elder. They both contributed to the legacy.

[@carylittleford8980]

The 1984 Dune was a product of its time. I always liked it, esp being a non-Dune reader. It was a delight to see a serious SciFi movie that had depth and world building, a very rare thing at the time. You can tell it was a somewhat tortured production but that adds to it's depth in many ways. New Dune is astounding.

[@robertnguyen2025]

Yes new is yet it needed more storytelling for Paul. New movies focuses too much on action based and didn't give enough time and substance to the Spice..to the Emperor..and to the Shailu the Worms

[@Trazynn]

Dune came out six years after Alien and Star Wars. It already felt dated around that time with poor visual effects.

[@BarnaliD]

@@Trazynn I'm pretty sure Alien came after Dune.

[@maximeteppe7627]

@@BarnaliD it really didn't. Star wars came out in 77, alien in 79, blade runner in 82, then Dune in 84.

[@danielhadida3915]

Actually, no. The visual production is on the level of The Forbidden Planet, a movie form 1956. The whole aesthetic is steampunk, which is not futuristic and reminds of Jules Verne's stuff, like Journey to the Center of the earth. Compare the machinery in Dune 1984 and the one in Star Wars, for instance. Also, putting the visuals aside, WHO THE FUCK MAKES OVERDUBS OF PEOPLE'S THOUGHT IN A MOVIE?! Nobody does that "at the time", because that's just not how cinema works! We have tons of movie where people's thought are conveyed through body language and facial expressions. Dune 1984 failed hard on that point, and the time has nothing to do with it.

[@jojoton4eva]

Imo, other than some beautiful sets and costumes, the only thing the 1984 adaptation does better is Alia, the child actor was great, giving dept to the character and portraying an adult in a child's body. And she really does seem like an otherwordly creature and gives you the creeps.

[@elizabethhuber434]

Also Virginia Madsen is gorgeous and otherworldly as Irulan.

[@metasystem8625]

I don't know. Based solely on the clips shown here, Alia seems far more creepy than in the book. In the book, yes, she's creepy, but she's full of mature understanding, helpfulness and insight. She's not made out to be as creepy.

[@adrianmizen5070]

The new Dune actually covers less of the story than the 1984 Dune, despite being nearly three times as long. No Spacing Guild, very little of the Emperor, no Alia, no space folding, no weirding way, not as much of the Harkonnens. The final battle is somehow just as rushed as it was in the 1984 version that people have been complaining about for 40 years. It's actually an amazing accomplishment that Villeneuve was able to waste so much screen time on Paul dipping his hands in water and bickering with Chani, along with boring Fremen politics.

[@TiMonsor]

does better is a strange wording, considering theres whole 5 seconds of Alia in Deni's version. Decision to push her out was a strange one. She was kinda crucial. But maybe the way she appears in the end and kills the Baron can look like a deus ex machina of sorts, robbing Paul of a deserved victory over him.

[@Rauruatreides]

​@@metasystem8625she is creepy in the book, though it's much more subtle.

[@loyalsausages]

Personally I though the 84 version was a truly epic film. Still is one of my favorites. I still get chills with the music score. And for those who know where to look, the Spice Diver Fan Edit (including almost an hour of Lynch's missing scenes) truly is a treat to watch and captures so much of what the film should have been!

[@goblinqueen4991]

Agreed! I stumbled across the Spice Diver edit a few days ago. I intended to just watch a few minutes of it to see if I wanted to save it to watch later, but got so engrossed that I ended up watching the whole thing then and there. It's really good.

[@AllenTooring]

I love how you categorize the Villeneuve Dune films as the definitive adaptation of Herbert’s novel and compare many elements of the two most well known adaptations side by side to illustrate your point, when the details you’re criticizing about Lynch’s version are almost exactly as they are described in the book, and the details of Villeneuve’s version (production design, make up, costumes, etc) are much more interpretive and extrapolative of Herbert’s vision. In the book Thufir Hawat has the red stains of the Juice of Sapho on his lips, like all mentats (a heavy narcotic they consume to augment their mental capabilities), whereas the modern Dune films just throw a little black bar tattoo under the mentat’s lips. You show a clip of Alia to illustrate how over the top the original film was, yet her presence as an embodied free agent is completely removed from the new films, a major diversion from the novel which changed many critical narrative beats in the films. You can say you preferred the new films, but I hope you understand that they took more care to make them palatable to modern audiences than to try to communicate everything that made the novel great. So many details are sanitized and made sleek, and the complex world and mechanics are reduced to window dressing. I’m not saying the lynch film is a successful adaptation either, but it took a more literal interpretation. I don’t think a “definitive” Dune adaptation has yet been made. I fully believe it needs the length of a miniseries if you want to get anything that feels better than a slightly deep action movie.

[@arthurwong9017]

I loved lynchs dune. Watched it as a kid and all the campiness flew over my head. I was just mesmerized by the costumes, the amazing amazing sets. In my mind arrakis and geddi prime seemed so real while watching. My imagination filled in the rest.

[@JRRob3wn]

I hated the new one. The Lynch film is superior in every way. Most notably is he actually uses color effectively. The new one is color corrected to make everything muted and blue tinged like every other crap modern film.

[@blank7764]

​@@JRRob3wnTry harder

[@JRRob3wn]

@@blank7764 no.

[@boobster6211]

@@JRRob3wn cope

[@JRRob3wn]

@@boobster6211 With what?

[@Ghost_Of_SAS]

The shield effects in 1984 Dune are phenomenal moviemaking: they had to hand draw the effect frame by frame and I'm still not sure how they did the various reflections. Even if you don't like the final result, it's one of the most impressive effects in pre-CG cinema.

[@jsdub0928]

I think a lot of early sci-fi got panned bc it looks off and not bc the story, directing, or acting was the problem. Just trying things that the industry at the time could not support from a technical standpoint

[@M_CFV]

how it was made is impressive, the final result even back then wasnt impressive lol

[@malungtvnews]

it is explained in Max Evrys book which is fantastic

[@laporteestouverte]

I think it looks awesome, and I've seen it for the first time a few weeks ago!

[@flex3580]

I mean thats cool and all but it still doesnt look good lol

[@patinho5589]

In Lynch’s version the say the consonants at the end of words. It seemed a deliberate shared pact by the actors!

[@theviniso]

It's very theatrical for sure.

[@patataboy]

@@theviniso So being able to clearly articulate has become an art now ... what a decadente world we are living in

[@theviniso]

@@patataboy Eh, it also sounded a bit weird when Patrick Stewart did it in Star Trek The Next Generation, and that was like 40 years ago. It's just not how people actually talk.

[@joaoaurelio1534]

Its good practice tò have Sharp t's and d's, plus precise "s" sounds. The declamation in. Lynch's version Is so much more clear and the voice Is crispier. Even when whispering its all clear where now actors talk instead or reciting and have no projection, only tensed muscles and fake emotion.

[@rizahawkeyepierce1380]

@@patataboy That's how language works. It shifts over time to make things easier to say. If you clearly pronounce each letter in the words as they're written, you sound like you're not a native speaker.

[@kaiser8195]

I love this detailed dive. It wasn't just about the technology, it was also the technique. That's why some other old movies are still good to watch today while others are not.

[@Calypso694]

The impact of The Voice definitely has a major diminished return on home watching. Same for the thumpers. They def need to boost those in Post for dvd releases of part 2

[@shanesahilreddyudumula]

Nah it was amazing. You need to have a good sound system to experience that. Just watched today on my atmos home theatre

[@Calypso694]

@@shanesahilreddyudumula yeah how much did that cost?

[@shanesahilreddyudumula]

@@Calypso694 around 5-6k

[@coin777]

buy better speakers

[@PoPeMunky]

Its called a subwoofer 👍

[@Feffe68]

I saw Dune "David Lynch" in a outdoor theater in Varkiza, Greece, august 1985. I´m still in love with it, even if Mr. Lynch isn´t.

[@ShadowWolf-mw1ko]

there is some genuinely good cinematography in old dune for its time, but as shown in the video it is ultimately plagued with exposition that just drags the pacing its unfortunate but it also shows that a more subtle approach like with what Denis has done can make you question and and figure it out on your own. Its that drip feed that enthralls you into this unknown universe.

[@acidic_magpie]

Having like 3x the runtime to work with also helps to be fair

[@johnernest5843]

I kind of want someone to edit bits of the Lynch film to just be shots and music--with the dialogue and exposition muted or removed I want to be able to breathe in the world and take in the fantastic sets and matte paintings. But the movie just forces so much exposition down your gullet, that even as a fan of the book, I kept getting lost with the plot at times

[@udirt]

Exposition that drags the pacing? What about how they sit with deep and grave expression[tm] in front of the pompous grandious[tm] desert landscape for 5 fucking minutes while acting no more than two little lambs.

[@johnernest5843]

@@udirt Choosing that over the exposition that makes me sleep any day of the week, brother If I wanted an info dump, I'll go re-read the Annex pages of the Dune novel

[@kodiak8525]

​@@johnernest5843 you don't have to go to the annex to find content cut by Dennis. He cut out pretty much the entire soul of the book.

[@dainacar]

Thanks for not just bagging on the old Dune. I watched it recently, and it really wasn't as bad as I had remembered. So many comparisons between the two versions boil down to "Old Dune Bad." I appreciate the thoughtful scene-to-scene breakdowns, and the interviews with the two directors. Nice work.

[@no_wegian]

I don't care, I still enjoy Lynch's version. I watched it in the theatres when I was 7 and I loved it and terrified by it. I can still watch it today and enjoy.

[@cainabel6356]

I prefer Lynch's version of the new one.

[@two_face]

Honestly nostalgia bias, I like you

[@malungtvnews]

I showed it to some people recently who all loved it

[@LegendoftheGalacticHero]

I can't disagree, but the old one has given us some iconic moments, plus a 6 year old stabbing a man, Patrick Steward being Patrick Steward and Sting being wild.

[@jingyulee96]

Patrick Stewart as Gurney does sound very appealing, even if Josh Brolin nailed it too

[@Rastor0]

And a Royal Pug

[@Zoroasterisk]

And cat milking!

[@Phoenix8492]

@@jingyulee96 Patrick Stewart is King Midas; everything he touches turns to gold. Find his performances as Macbeth and as Claudius from Hamlet (starring David Tenant as the titular character), I speak the truth.

[@dependent-ability8631]

@@Phoenix8492 i don't think you want Patrick Stewart to be king Midas...

[@christophersanders3252]

80s version is cheesy and belongs to it’s time, but it has a lot of heart. Still a great watch.

[@dependent-ability8631]

yeah i am glad it exists even if it wasn't as good as it could of been

[@Bob-po2dp]

I wonder how people will look back at this dune, and by extension the movies released during this time period. Will they see them as cheesy and dated, or will the special effects and writing still hold up enough to be relevant in 100 or so years. I’m more inclined to believe the latter because we still revere some old movies and stories, but there’s always the possibility everything ages super terribly lol. I’ll bet some things, like the marvel movies, will be seen as products of their time, while the more serious stuff will still be well liked.

[@paulvontarsus729]

I prefer the old Dune. The new Dune is colourless, feels too modern in a bad way, the main character feels kinda stale. And I like that it's a single film, not dragged out like what they did to The Hobbit. Old fantasy/sci fi movies had some amazing sets and scenery, very intricate and creative. I don't like the ultra minimalistic modern look new Dune has.

[@christophersanders3252]

@@paulvontarsus729 Exactly! Modern movies are so sterile. No heart.

[@Cobalt985]

@@Bob-po2dp The new Dune already reeks of modern film tropes. The acting style, dark and gritty atmosphere, cold color grading, and everyone fucking mumbling is exactly representative of your average blockbuster these days.

[@hazonku]

I actually know a guy who built some of the models in new Dune and you would not BELIEVE the amount of detail that went into some of those ships and harvesters and whatnot that are either obscured by dust or only seen ever so briefly. Thankfully we're at that point in VFX and compositing where the particle effects, the lighting, and the rendering are all finally good enough that those details do translate through. It may comes off more like a matte painting where the idea is to only give you a hint of details and your brain just fills in the rest but they are there.

[@Law_001]

man you can just hear/see the pain from lynch... so sad was just wrong place wrong time. he said he hasn't seen the new dunes and wont it brings too much pain and bad memories.. i hope he does at some point and finds some comfort as well as genuine enjoyment to let go of the past. they were done beautifully

[@JREHangzhou]

The beginning of Lynch's Dune was to mirror the books. The voice overs in Lynch's were meant to mirror the books focus on inner thoughts as well. They don't work as well, but that's why those were emphasized.

[@aoki6332]

that the thing with making an adaptation of a book into live action, you must know what work in literature and can be carry over and what cannot, its a important part as a book made words be words into a movie will be awful and vise versa

[@udirt]

They work much better, it's unrealistic someone growing into such power in such a powerful background would bubble out trivialities or blurb about his moods. That just wouldn't happen, and instead, he would think. And what they expressed *sounded* like their thoughts. Maybe it worked better in a time when reading skills hadnt degraded as much. I hope that that ain't true.

[@HamguyBacon]

@@udirt that's because over 50% of people don't have inner monologue, they are NPC's that go bout their day. some people can't comprehend that you can actually talk in your head.

[@anyawatchesmovies]

You can actually emphasize the inner world of characters without literal voiceovers. In fact, Lynch is very good at that. I have a theory that voiceovers were added during post production because the studio was worried that people wouldn't understand what is going on.

[@HamguyBacon]

@@anyawatchesmovies the voice over is done because that is what is written in the books, there is a lot of inner monologue.

[@rhymenepnep2262]

The worst part is it seems like lynch was actually a fan of the book too

[@Zoroasterisk]

I seriously doubt that. The weirding modules are a goddamn travesty

[@tmage23]

He had never read the book before he was offered the job.

[@grayz1n]

nah, somethings he did there really wasnt things of books fan

[@Neil-qg9cw]

The book he never read before accepting the role?

[@bajscast]

@@Neil-qg9cw He was offered before he'd read the book, but didn't accept until he read it. The script was very accurate. Frank Herbert loved the movie

[@the_hortator]

I missed just one thing from the old movie in the new one: FATHER! THE SLEEPER HAS AWAKENED!

[@cainabel6356]

There are a lot of things that are not within the new movie. The acting is one of them. I think they did better acting in the old one. Paul: "THE PAIN!" "Father, the Sleeper has awakened." I also loved the scene on where they performed the ritual, where the worms were out and waiting for Paul to arise.

[@two_face]

​ The acting is by far not one of them, not even close. I don't understand how you could sit here and lie to yourself, or is it so hard for some to recognize actual great performances? This is acting, not shouting out "The pain!" Do yk what "Show don't tell" in filmmaking means?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rIbJhXx_ZZeAjqMsi=VSL2YCB8whfZkT1C

[@nikknackmickattack320]

So..... You can find the spicediver edit of the 1980s dune on YT and it's nearly 3hrs long, the fight with Jamis happens, and you see the Atreides castle standing on a cliff next to the ocean. There's also a sci Fi channel mini series of Dune.

[@TiMonsor]

«sci Fi channel mini series of Dune» i dont like that ppl ignore it as if it doesnt exist. It conveys the book much better than Linch's version. And it continues to the Children of Dune. I watched it twice, still good.

[@Zoroasterisk]

@@TiMonsor I've watched it literally dozens of times. I was like 12 when it came out, and I'd coincidentally read Dune as assigned reading in school. A lot of it went over my head, like Paul being the bad guy, but I loved both the book and miniseries. I preferred the miniseries to Lynch's version, as it stuck closer to the book, despite the noticeably lower production value

[@providencebreaker1558]

@@TiMonsor It's a soulless TV production. Being faithful doesn't mean much when there's no actual entertainment value.

[@vangelisgru7271]

​@Zoroasterisk i just watched it. Now i will rewatch it

[@NovusIgnis]

@@Zoroasterisk Paul isn't the bad guy though. Clearly it's still going over your head.

[@nobodynemoq]

I love how you did this comparison. Especially the last one, where Villeneuve managed to show Paul overcoming the pain in such a masterful way. Without a word everyone, even completely unfamiliar with the original story, knows immediately that this "ENOUGH" is not Reverend Mother's mercy, but she notices that she is no longer in control. Just like bully, who is losing a fight and shouts in the last possible moment "OK, I'm letting you go". Of course Lynch did not have much time, but so many things didn't work properly in his Dune: it is both fast-paced and a bit too slow at the same time, with so much off-screen narrative, there are lots of details, but simply not where they would be very welcome (just like the box and Gom Jabbar scene). I feel really sorry for David Lynch, who definitely was not in full control. Diune did such trauma to him, that he even refuses to watch the new one 😥

[@lockaltube]

Except that in book it was: "The burning! The burning! He thought he could feel skin curling black on that agonized hand, the flesh crisping and dropping away until only charred bones remained. It stopped! As though a switch had been turned off, the pain stopped. Paul felt his right arm trembling, felt sweat bathing his body. "Enough," the old woman muttered. "Pain," she sniffed. "A human can override any nerve in the body."" While in film it looked like Harry Potter vs Voldemort battle (or something from Star Wars, force vs force), in the book only Paul was in agony, it was a one-way game and Reverend Mother knew exactly what to expect during this test. Kwisatz Haderach was a result of 10 000 years of careful breeding, not some shocking event.

[@lockaltube]

Oh, yeah. "ENOUGH!" ... "the old woman muttered" is an alternative version of "Dumbledore asked calmly"

[@slb797]

In the new movie, we see Paul in pain, but it’s manageable. In the old, we see what is just manageable for Paul is superhuman.

[@MarkoLomovic]

What are you talking about Lynch version of gom jabbar is beat for beat and in terms of adaptation it is perfection. Villeneuve version felt empty by comparison.

[@Neil-qg9cw]

​​@@lockaltubeYes, a book has internal monologue. In the new film it's expertly SHOWN with acting, how a film should be done. What do you people want? Inner monologues don't work in films, as 1984 demonstrates.

[@Gu1tarZer0]

I still like the old one for what it is, but yeah- the new ones are like a religious experience. They are incredible..

[@GH-fb9dh]

Yes, it’s so theatrical and camp and I appreciate it for it, but the new movies are so immersive you forget yourself watching it

[@EchelonIV]

Wonderful comparison. Two very different movies from very different times and directors. I think Lynch Dune gets too much hate. It hasn't aged well, but when I saw it the first time I was super into it. Now as an adult I see it and I see a lot of technical limitations, but at the same time a lot of super cool tricks that are not used in today's cinema. The new Dune movies are just masterpieces in all aspects; I love Villeneuve's vision and directing. I wonder what David Lynch would have done in this day and age with modern tech, and if he got to make two movies instead of one. I believe he would have gotten his masterpiece as well.

[@DBG750]

As others have commented: these are two separate adaptations of the same source material, which is very different than a remake, which implies that the Lynch version was an original script. Just as the 2017, 2019 It part 1 and 2 are adaptations of the 1986 Stephen King novel; not the 1990 television miniseries.

[@ZukoHalliwell]

Exactly!

[@cashnelson2306]

Why are so many people making this comment…? He literally talks about how they’re both adaptations of the book in the video lol

[@armelkervennal9437]

Really good content! It's always a pleasure when you stumble upon a high quality video like this one. Keep it up!

[@Drownedinblood]

Tbh it's a lot harder to do things the first time. They also had a tv show to learn from in adapting it long form.

[@keiranleeoates]

Videos like this make me question if people even think anymore, so many times there is a huge contrast, missing things or just out right plot holes and many other things, but people blindly praise them. I haven't read the books and the new dune movies was my first look, it felt like stuff rushed as if there was large gaps in the story, nothing settled and a lot of in the middle scenes were forgotten because of how the movie just brushed past them, my friend who had read the books watched it with me, he then explained to me at the end how the new movie cuts out a lot from the books, moments I felt were missing and him telling me that made sense, he then told me how they changed things in it, stuff that I didn't know the purpose, like how the black woman that asks if Paul has warn the suit before is supposed to be Chani's dad, I was confused who they were and why they even shown us them dying, they were a nothing character, in the books there is a lot more that the movie missed out on, the voice is another, In the new Dune movie it's some cool super power that mind controls people, but in the books it's a way you speak, there is no power to it, it's learning the person your using it on, finding the deep parts of them that you can use to do what you ask, like seducing someone who is easily seduced, or using the specific tone that an abused person heard from their abuser, the movie making it a super power left me questioning why don't they just constantly use this power to just solve their problems, tell the Barron to kill himself, tell their enemies to stop fighting them, just use the voice, where in the book it takes time, since it's not a power, you need to study the person, learn their deepest fears or desires and use that against them. There is a lot more wrong with the first movie from someone who has never read the books and is new to the franchise and someone who read the books, part 2 apparently changed quite a bit, Chani for no reason at all now is against Paul, she hates the idea of what he's doing and runs off like some child who didn't get her way, she was the one that told Paul to marry the princess in the books as it's over political reasons, Paul doesn't want to do it but does, telling Chani that he only loves her, where in the movie he just does it tells Chani that she storms off having a big cry and from what my friend told me, he now wants to know how they are going to do the next movie since Chani has completely gone against character, Pauls sister was supposed to kill tha Barron but didn't Paul and Chani have a child that dies but that won't happen because they won't let there be child death. There is a lot about the new movies that from both perspectives made it seem shit, I felt like we needed more time with places and to fully understand whats going on that the book apparently does, but the movie skips it, I would forget about scenes in the movie because it felt out of place or added nothing because of the cut moments from the book, we watched the old movie and that isn't any good but at least that has a reason to, it still misses out on big points, it still jumps about and stuff happens that I forget about because the it was just slapped in. I've seen this with a lot of things like with games like RE4 Remake, people praising it for how close it was to the OG despite it cut a lot out and changed a lot making less sense and worse, characters doing stuff that goes against their character, or not really fixing problems the old one has but instead making it worse or feel more forced for plot sakes, them reselling cut content from Leons camping and still not giving us the cut content from Adas story as well as the other Ada mode, Krawser being retconned to be Leons Superior instead of his equal as a partner meaning they need to redo one of the on rail RE games that gave us backstory of the two, infract Leon was high up then him, Stuff like this I see a lot, That Saphia Hunter's review on RE4 was as if she didn't even think, she praised the remake for what the original did and Slandered the original for what the Remake did, that made me double take, so much I thought I was just hearing things or thinking wrong about it, but my friends who 1 was watching and the other was just having it in the background also questioned it. This isn't to attack these people or anything but I do question peoples ability to take in what they watch, I know majority don't do that and they mostly shut their brain off when watching or playing something which I can't do that nor understand how to do that, but when people talk about the thing it's weird since they didn't pay attention at all.

[@gamerx3071]

do you have any idea how hard it is to adapt Dune? There HAS to be changes, and honestly some of the changes made it better. I think Chani is handled better in the movies. If you have a problem with it not being 1000% faithful to its source, that's a you problem. Just because people like the changes doesn't make them brainless. Open your mind, jeez.

[@keiranleeoates]

@gamerx3071 laughed a bit, no you're wrong and the people are brain dead because countless times people eat up slop that makes no sense and when questioned they don't have a point, they just say "I liked it" ignoring all the parts that go against it and cause contradiction. Plus the new Dune movie has the unsettling problem of Chani being played by that girl whatever her name was, and people online have been grooming her and getting really creepy over her so they will prais anything shes in and anything she does when it's not even her it's the writers, same as how when theres an actor everyone hates even when they do good they get shit on when it's not their choice to do that change or thing in the movie, it's the writer's. I've been listening to the books and have watched the old dune movie after the new one and both movies are bad, the book goes into a lot more and makes sense where the movies don't. And Chani from the sounds of it makes no sense on the movie as for no reason at all ever she is against Paul which means like half or if not all of the book down the line will make no sense, you also got to take in as well that the movie is scared to do what the book does which makes the movie actually bad, Art should be free to express and free to be what it is, the movies are scared which make them bad, theres quite a few important bits cut because the movie is scared to kill off children or have the villain be a pedo. There was also the change to the Barron killing Lato and how the book makes the Barron paranoid. In the books he doesn't kill the doctor like he does in the movie, in the movie the doctor could of stright up killed the Barron, then and there since he grabs the doctor and has no shield on, the book doesn't do that because well, thats stupid to do, you can't make a paranoid characrer and then write scenes that go against it (which seems to be a trait with most stuff now) when you write a character you got to remember their traits, think how they would during those situations, the movies forget that and hope you never notice because they need brain dead people that don't focus on whats going on to consume it.

[@keiranleeoates]

@gamerx3071 oh also you're right that it's difficult to make an adaptation, thats why some books can't be adapted since the format they are in works better in book, it's like adapting a game to a movie, some games need that player interaction to work. Also sorry for making this a long reply, don't want to burden you with a wall of text but this is important to our conversation. My first time knowing about Dune and it's stuff is from the current movie, never watched or read anything on it, I have not much intrest in it, so I'm not saying this from an OG book fan perspective but someone who probably got in to dune like the majority and experienced it for the first time with this new movie.

[@That_Eriksson]

I love the way Villeneuve talks about film making makes you realize stuff our tiny non film maker brains missed. Big fan of both Dunes each in their own way....been very happy thus far with new.

[@johnredacted5141]

Old Dune Paul: "I am in pain" New Dune Paul: "so anyway im the Lisan al Gaib"

[@lumpek4149]

Old dune looks soo cringy not because of CGI etc. the conversations themselves are conducted as if there was an idiot sitting in front of the screen who didn't understand anything and we had to explain it to him

[@alessandrobaggi6129]

​@@lumpek4149You never read the books... They're written like Lynch's Dune: each and every character has long strings of thoughts conversating with themselves, just to analyze the situations, possibilities and outcomes plus the obvious exposition for the audience reading...

[@lumpek4149]

@@alessandrobaggi6129 i didnt said that i read books but in my opinion its just cringy that characters tell you what they feel and how they act. But true i dont know books

[@Zoroasterisk]

@@alessandrobaggi6129 Right, but film is a visual medium. If people want a medium that allows them to hear exposition and inner monologues spouted to them, they can get the audiobook. Also, I've read all of Frank's books at least twice, and like 8 of Brian's

[@Zoroasterisk]

@@lumpek4149 You're fine. The over-reliance on voiceover is one of the biggest problems of that movie, along with deviating from the source material. The weirding modules, for example, are a stand-in for the weirding way, which was a Bene Gesserit method of fighting that Paul taught to his best soldiers called the Fedayken. The underlying cause of both problems was the ridiculous notion that the overall story of Dune could be told in one feature-length movie, which Villeneuve's dune demonstrates quite handily, IMO

[@Planetdune]

I love both adaptations.

[@laura.gallego]

I watched 2 times Lynch's Dune, I can't tell how many times I watched the one's from Denis and HOW much I enjoyed the 2000's mini series, and all of them are amazing in their own way. You have to watch them with your mind open, forget about trying to be a critic of films and just let yourself get involved in the cinmetic which is what a movie is made for.

[@rippilot2113]

I like the attention to detail in the design of the new Dune's Gom Jabbar, but Lynch's Dune had a much more book accurate version. It is literally described at one point as a thimble with a thin needle at the end if I remember correctly.

[@strangerthanfiction4014]

The spice miner cut makes 84 dune very similar to Lawrence of arabia

[@twilightcitystudios]

Spice Diver, but yes and thank you for pointing it out.

[@piercelabayne4709]

I didn't even know why I clicked on this video since I haven't watched either movie. But despite my lack of knowledge, this video perfectly explained everything, made me feel like I was part of the making and the movie, and had me in awe the whole time. This and youe channel definitely deserves more interaction.

[@sonofacheron]

This was a well made piece of propaganda, conditioning you to dismiss the other movie before you’ve seen it. The new Dune is a very good movie for this time but not without its flaws. Conversely, the old Dune is highly flawed but it is a beautiful disaster with amazing music and visual - you would never know that after watching this reviewer’s hatchet job.

[@milkamoussse]

​@@sonofacheron the review never said the opposite of this, you did

[@henrikaugustsson4041]

Go watch the movies, they’re pretty great.

[@JoeTAC]

This review is biased trash. It's not an objective review. The original Dune, with all its drawbacks was by far the more grounded and realistic version, with subtle acting and a very real cast that gave credibility to each role. A soundtrack that really slaps and a setting that feels so futuristic and alien that it sucks you into it. The new one is full of the same inbred actors and cg diarrhea that all movies have. It does not look realistic, it does not feel real, you do not see these characters as real people, you see them as characters in a movie and they can never be anything else. Not that I am trying to discredit the new movie. But the old one feels much more Dune to me than the new one.

[@so_smazzy]

@@JoeTAC lol & the video is biased? okay

[@drstrangelove4925]

I’m beyond happy I was able to watch the first one completely alone in the cinema and they were nice enough to even turn up the volume and got free popcorn with bacon chips and on top of that the second part is my favourite experience in the cinema so far

[@Jayy997]

Usually not a fan of scattershot structure in videos but you made this really work!

[@ConnorLiftsWeights]

Great video. Keep up the effort we appreciate it!

[@ShouldersofGiants100]

I think this video somewhat misses that the problems of the Lynch film would not be at all fixed by a four-hour cut or less studio control. The problem at the core of Lynch's Dune is that he did not understand the message at the core of it. Villeneuve, from the start, seems to have understood that to understand Dune, you need to read Dune Messiah. Dune resembles Star Wars in that both are a hero's journey, but for Dune, in both the books and the new film, the journey is not one to triumph, but tragedy. Paul wins, he becomes Emperor, his family survives-but to achieve it, he manipulates and betrays everyone who ever cared about him as a man, ultimately becoming not merely inhuman, but a pawn of a destiny he never wanted. Villeneuve gets this. He puts weight on every one of Paul's relationships, not just as people from whom he learns on his journey, but as people he sees as family. He devotes entire scenes to Paul's knowledge and fear of his destiny. He emphasizes over and over again that Paul and Jessica are using Bene Gesserit lies to manipulate the Fremen. When he finally consumes the water of life and awakes, it is not a heroic triumph, it is a man who has sacrificed everything he was or wanted to be. Dune is a deeply anti-authoritarian story where to achieve power is to lose your humanity along the way. Lynch does not get this. His film plays Paul becoming a saviour figure 100% straight. Becoming the Kwisatz Haderach and achieving power is not the death of Paul as a man, it is the badass climax at the end of the film. Dune 3 has been confirmed, meaning we are going to get a full trilogy and an adaptation of Dune Messiah. Lynch's Dune could have broken every expectation and you never could have done that because it fundamentally does not understand what kind of story it is supposed to be adapting and so could never have had the self-reflection to look at the story it had told and realize that Paul has lost everything, including his hope for a better future.

[@martiuscastle]

We can't judge a movie from fourty years ago with today's eyes. 1984 dune is actually a good movie. Lynch's worst is better than the best of some of today's directors.

[@lachlanlander6002]

Oh Imma judge it...

[@whenallelsfails21]

dont worry, they judged it pretty harshly back then too. I still love lynch but my man could not catch a break with studio interference. I just got done with twin peak season 2 and ive never felt more bad for a director.

[@Not_a_Lizard_]

It was judged in 1984 and deemed to be shit. This video literally shows critics of the time saying they hated it.

[@martiuscastle]

@@Not_a_Lizard_ True. I was reffering to the overall opinion on the video, so maybe people could take a diferente stance. I admit it's weird, a OST made by Toto, a narrator saying "I forgot", The cloaca face... But It has its merits too, awesome cast, good acting, and that noir (ish) style of Lynch's. I Just feel It deserves better.

[@sidradeave]

Yes, yes we can. We have a lot of movies to compare to, including the ones directed by Lynch. Hells, even he hated the movie.

[@Lobosthecrow]

Soundtrack by Toto, designs by HR Giger, David Lynch weirdness, better set design and details, internal voices closer to the books, WAY BETTER Dr. Yueh story (first half of book one is HIS story), Sean Young, Virginia Madsen, etc... there's still lots to love about Lynch's version.

[@MichaelSmith-sd9kz]

I love the sandworms in Lynch's, and think the digital shields look great. The only problem with Lynch's is the compressed storytelling. It just needed to be longer.

[@ThomB1031]

I like Lynch's version better... as well as the ScyFy series

[@user-uy5mf8mw6x]

Giger didn’t do designs for the Lynch version, just for some unmade versions.

[@Lobosthecrow]

@@user-uy5mf8mw6x Giger sent Lynch his designs, Lynch didn't want to use his work, and yet, his influence is still felt in the sandworms, spice harvester, stillsuits, etc.

[@theviniso]

The set designs are way too different to be compared, I wouldn't call them better or worse. They're beautifully intricate and decorated, which is the opposite approach Denis took with his minimalist and grounded sets.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

1984's Dune (what a year for something to come out in) leans more to the witch side of the Bene Gesserit, while Denis takes the priestly nun aspect; the projection of political power through religious ritual.

[@pointblank2890]

Good observation! I haven't seen that pointed out that way before!

[@DP-ic2lz]

It's a silly film

[@udirt]

​​​@@pointblank2890that's why Jessica has so much more depth and strength in the old one. The new one takes away her power, defiance, the love and cunning behind her scheming against the masters of schemes, her will to fight and any and all agency. It's a horrible degradation of her as a human respected by one of the most powerful person in the universe, a mother who will kill without a second thought to protect her son and wants to fihht beside him to a mommy onlooker and bystander.

[@germpore]

I will say this for Lynch's Dune - it has some great lines: "Mood is a thing for cattle and loveplay!" "I did not say this. I am not here." Also, there is a third adaptation that's worth mentioning - the SyFy Channel's "Dune" and "Children of the Dune" miniseres, which while made for the small screen, is actually not bad. And so far, the latter is the only screen adaptation of "Children".

[@JaceTan-90]

I hope many sci fi movies follow Dune P1 and P2 approach, quality and emphasis to story making, flow and detail moving forward.

[@ErikDaVinci]

Thank you for this great comparison video!

[@kingace6186]

Thank you for this. This taught me a lot about David Lynch. It also taught me a lot about how passion projects materialize (through the Villeneuve side of this parallel). You can tell both loved Frank Herbert's Dune, but only one was able to faithfully adapted.

[@MrSeedi76]

None of them has faithfully adapted it.

[@two_face]

obviously not on its utter entirely, you're being dramatic ​@@MrSeedi76

[@thomasballard1753]

Loved this comparison. Thank you! fwiw, I admire both Villeneuve and Lynch. Grown-me is still obsessing over Denis' work, but might not have existed without Lynch inspiring growing-me to read the Dune books which, like guildsmen guiding cargo through fold space and the stars helped with my own trajectory (and probably many others too). Like Woz ("the good Steve" 😉), Denis and David both adorn my own mental pantheon of heroes to give gratitude and point others at to find the muse of inspiration. Also, without Frank, George and so many others traveling that path work no one would even be having this discussion. Huge love for the individual and collaborative creativity of human craftsmen and the power behind them.

[@ninjaowl9881]

Man, Denis has really done something masterful. This is a film set that will stand the test of time. Congratulations to everyone involved! And thank you from the fans. It's more than we could have ever imagined! Nice job!

[@liquifex]

And they're going to start working on 3 soon. weeeeeeeeeee

[@sabbiss]

did old Paul really say PAIN when he felt... pain. I CANT LMAO

[@Okinawatrip]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6Oml5ysmLaYapo His final cry "the pain!" makes the Reverend Mother stop. We can see that she went much further in the pain than she was planning to. She was so sure that he would fail that she was about to make him fail. She was getting pleasure ouf of his pain too. The use of the litany against fear straight from the book shows that Paul owes his life to the Bene Gesserit training he received from his mother. The image of the burning hand is a bit over the top, but acts as a powerful mean for us to imagine what he must feel. The aftermath, with Paul taking his hand out, all tense, but unharmed also makes us empathise with him. The overall tension in the scene is miles away higher than Villeneuve's.

[@cainabel6356]

@@Okinawatrip Yeah. it seemed like the 1984 version had better acting compared to the 2023 - 2024. I guess the kids in the new one just don't have the experience.

[@Okinawatrip]

@@cainabel6356 Better acting yes. More experience? I'm not sure. Chalamet is 28, three years older than Kyle was. Zandaya is 27, two years older than Sean Young was. Different generation, that's for sure.

[@cainabel6356]

@@Okinawatrip Maybe I should have rewarded it differently. Not everyone had experience, but a lot of older actors did. Maybe most of it was due to the era to how things were done versus on how things are done now.

[@Okinawatrip]

@@cainabel6356 Agreed. Maybe even the personalities. I have the feeling that in the 80s, actors had more life experience, hardships, and personal stuff that they could use for their performance whereas young celebrities nowadays, for the most part, seem to live a pretty superficial life which doens't give them a lot to draw from in demanding roles.

[@CashMoolah00]

Cinematography, scale, Dennis direction and vision of the world is incredible. He makes the world the characters are in so realistic and relatable. Blade runner 2049 and both Dune are legendary sci-fi cinema.

[@bencressman6110]

Arrival is one of my favourite movies ever

[@CashMoolah00]

@@bencressman6110 Yup sicario to some extent, just the tense entrance into Juarez.

[@Spillow-C]

Blade Runner 2 is so overrated, no surprise no one watched it

[@RougeDeBlah]

They're both so overrated, BR2049 WAS SO BORING AND SO WAS NEW DUNE DVS TASTE IN CINEMATOGRAPHY IS SO BORING BLAND

[@amuroray9115]

@@Spillow-C people would have to watch it, to overrate it

[@ItsAlexComan]

this was a really, really good video essay

[@thehunter8417]

I like david lynch's version because of how bizarre and camp it is. There are times where it feels like it's not trying to take itself seriously, like some retro sci-fi comedy sketch. Though it is quite unfortunate to hear about lynch's lack of control over the film

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

Every seems to forget the two three-parter mini-series _Dune_ (2000) and _Children of Dune_ (2003), with Alex Newman as Paul Atreides?

[@JALange]

The adaptations are just so bad, though.

[@anthonyju6392]

One of the things I liked in the old dune was how the voice was portrayed. I wasn't a fan of the blatant mind control or the subversion of the user's will in the one. I like the subluminal messaging of the voice in the old dune which is best displayed when Paul and Jessica escape from the Harkonnen ship. Paul's voice is different than what is known from the Bene Gesserits. His voice is more commanding and is befitting that of a masculine side using the voice.

[@bigboldsoul]

Excellent video! This is content I want to see! This level!

[@reyluna9332]

Still like the 80s version better. All the characters are more memorable. I think I would've loved Jodorowsky's Dune even more.

[@timhenley3602]

I just live how critics/pundits/film buffs tells us which movies we should like/dislike and we as consumers immediately jump on the bandwagon. Old Dune still holds up IMHO...

[@amuroray9115]

Don’t listen to this guy then. Enjoy whatever film you want. Old fans hate the new Dune but I’m still enjoying it I agree we shouldn’t listen to critics. Just enjoy whatever you choose

[@AltoAterna]

Dude, the delivery of your script is impeccable. And the script itself, the comparison and analysis, you've done well.

[@JoSh-oo-Ah]

Either or, I like them both. They both have their place for their time. 😊

[@mandalorluekrem96]

This is a ONE FINE VIDEO! Thank you for your effort.

[@thomaskiser3886]

Say what you want-I loved the inner dialogues from Lynch’s….so much of it in the book. Wish the new movie had that.

[@ja88ott]

Wow, comparing two movies that are 40 years apart. I really like the new Dune films but there is a lot from the book that has been removed. I also really like the '84 Dune, it's a movie of it's time that unfortunately had behind the scenes issues. I think it's a pity that Jodorowsky's Dune was never made, that would've been a right trip, especially if it was a 10hr movie as it sounds like it might have been! 😁

[@derangedberger]

Lynch Paul yelling "THE PAIN" is the greatest cinematic moment of all time, prove me wrong.

[@clauro6153]

I'm tired of the whispers , give me the yells .

[@deathmetalmarten]

lol what an insane statement

[@hongngocle7644]

Is this satire 😭

[@clauro6153]

@@hongngocle7644 I don't know the op but i am serious