NEVER buy a Porsche until you check for this!

[@euroasianbob9268]

Thanks again for having me Ed! Reliving this one is painful! Lol.

[@philipglorioso6952]

great relatable content! Thanks for the stories.

[@colinashby3775]

50,000 miles 50,000 spend 40,000 worth 😥😥

[@jamesmisener3006]

Thanks Bob. I've not heard about this yet. Cheers 🇨🇦

[@DGI82]

So funny seeing these cars go up in value when they will all ultimately need a Jake Raby level rebuild eventually to “bulletproof” them

[@josiahhein6036]

I heard it is actually caused by storing the cars for Winter and not driving them.

[@johnkluge3421]

The problems with the M96 engine all relate to the way the engine blocks were cast. There was never anything wrong with the IMS bearing. That people think so is primarily the result of Jack Raby trying to sell his upgraded bearing. I experience what Raby doesn't ever want to talk about; my "upgraded" L&M bearing failed and destroyed the engine in my 02 911 Carrera 4S. When I called LM and ended up speaking to Raby himself via email, LM told me that the problem wasn't their bearing but that it was installed in an engine that didn't meet the tolerances they expected thus causing their bearing to fail. In short, LM claimed it wasn't their bearing's fault. That is all well and good, except that that is exactly what Porsche had been saying since day 1, that the IMS failures were caused by other failures in the engine not due to any flaw in the bearing. In my odyssey of trying to buy a new engine and eventually rebuilding the won that came with the car, I was able to talk to the Porsche factory and get their view on the IMS bearing and the M96 engine, which I think is the correct explanation. The truth behind both the scoring and the IMS is that Porsche had never made cars in the kind of numbers that it did when first the Boxster and then the 996 sold. The engine designs worked perfectly fine on paper. As long as the block was forged to exact specifications, everything is fine. Indeed, there are thousands of these cars out there that have well over a hundred thousand miles on them without any IMS or bore scoring issue. If, however, the block wasn't forged to exact specifications, and since Porsche had never made cars in these numbers before 10 percent or so of the engines are not, problems arose. Specifically, if a block is a bit off and doesn't cool evenly, the difference in temperature on the two sides of the engine and up frying the IMS bearing. As my car will attest, it will do so regardless of whether it is a stock or an "upgraded" bearing. So, installing an upgraded IMS is a fool's errand. Either you have a car that has a well forged block, in which case the IMS is never going to fail, or you don't, in which case the IMS is failing regardless of whether it is a stock or an upgraded one. The same is true of the bore scoring. Yes, there is a correlation between cold whether and bore scoring in that the cars that get it seem to come from cold climates. There are, however, plenty of cars that were driven in cold climates that don't suffer from scoring. Again, if the block and Porsche lining material were forged perfectly, the bore isn't going to score. There are tons of examples of high mileage cars with no scoring that prove this. If, however, it wasn't forged perfectly, it is going to score. It might be that it is more likely to score in a cold climate. So, you might get lucky and have an engine with badly forged cylinder liners and it not matter because you live in a warm climate. That is what is going on here. Porsche had never made engines in the kind of numbers it did for the Boxster and the water cooled 9-11s. So, it wasn't able to forge engine blocks and cylinder liners with the kind of consistency it should have. With regard to the IMS bearing in particular, before the 996, Porsche used an oil fed bearing that was not affected by uneven cooling the way the packed IMS bearing of the M96 engine was. My guess is they had no idea they were having uneven cooling in some of their blocks during the air cooled days because it didn't matter with an oil fed bearing so no one noticed. Interestingly, Porsche finally gave up and went back to the oil fed bearing in the 97.2 generation. As far as buying these cars, my advice is the following. Check the car with a bore scope for any sort of scoring. If it is a high mileage engine and doesn't have any scoring, it is almost certainly not going to get any at this point. If it is a low mileage car, it may or may not get it in the future. As far as the IMS goes, if the engine is high mileage and hasn't ate an IMS bearing, it likely won't in the future. If it is low mileage, there is no way to know. And having an "upgraded bearing" won't save you. What will save you, however, is installing what is known as the "IMS solution" which makes the bearing oil fed and thus renders any uneven cooling between the two cylinder blocks no longer fatal to the bearing or the engine. Don't bother with an upgraded bearing. it won't save you. Install the oil fed system which solves the problem entirely. Every one of these cars probably should have the oil fed modification.

[@Cos27O]

Your explanation makes perfect sense. I have been reading the porsche 911 story by paul frere, and the entire time I have been astounded at what Porsche was able to achieve with the engineering and design of the 911 in period. I then realized the small production numbers the 911 was made in when compared to comparable sports cars of the time, and it made sense. They can charge more and take their time because they're not making as many. It would not surprise me at all, given the state of the company when the 996 was developed and manufactured, that there were serious quality control issues due to the large volumes the cars were made in when compared to previous generations.

[@checkmate1996]

Great response. Should be posted everywhere.

[@MBSLC]

Great information! Before my friend bought the new factory short block, we visited a Porsche specialist in Nashville for advice. He mentioned Jake Raby in our conversation. He had problems with a few Raby engines and could never get in contact with the guy.

[@corey5797]

👏👏👏👏

[@TucsonDude]

Great info, but I'll respectfully disagree about the IMS bearing. I'm absolutely aghast that any manufacturer would install a non-lubed SEALED BEARING inside an engine. It will fail, sooner or later.

[@rickstengard]

True story. My 991.1 got a whole new motor at 18k miles, 15 days before the CPO warranty expired! $38,000 bill covered.

[@alfieboy4022]

Dude same. I had a new shortblock put in TWICE on a 991.1 GTS. Turns out the injectors were a bit clogged which caused uneven spray. However they should’ve replaced the heads too because they had damage it turns out. Ended up sending my engine to Deman Motorsports to do a 4.5 conversion and they found all sorts of fun stuff with it

[@user-tu4jj6gs4p]

Interesting (and nerve-wrecking) to know, considering that I am eyeballing a 991 Turbo in the future. I knew they had fixed the IMS, but bore-scoring still an issue is concerning.

[@windronner1]

@@user-tu4jj6gs4p nope. Defective wiper motor is concerning. Bore scoring on a car of this caliber, from a company with this level racing technology reputation is insane.

[@jonasbaine3538]

@@windronner1 I wouldn’t trust these old Porsche cars but I think the newer ones $$$ are more reliable

[@EarlX99]

@@jonasbaine3538 no they’re not. I’ve had 2 PADM failures within 12 months on my MY21 Spyder!

[@RageUnchained]

Bob: “don’t buy a Porsche” *me who can barely afford the payments and insurance on my shit box Chevy impala* “hmmm interesting I’ll keep that in mind”

[@deborahchesser7375]

No kidding, I’m worried about keeping the lights on so I doubt I’ll have to worry about a Porsche breaking down

[@76slippery]

Got any impala stories?

[@RageUnchained]

@@76slippery one time my battery failed and I couldn’t get the key out of the ignition because the release for the key is an electronically controlled solenoid, any jackass with jumper cables could have stolen my car that night. Also my car is 6 years old and somehow the power steering rack is failing

[@76slippery]

@@RageUnchained sounds right for a gm product. However if it's like a cadillac cts there is hole under a cap looks like a screw head on the steering column, stick a pen in there to release the key.

[@89imp03]

😂😂😂 these impalas are either bulletproof or full of problems. Nothing in-between lol

[@Droopy578]

I’m no Porsche enthusiast but this is great info !! Thanks for all who’ve commented worldwide!! Always a pleasure in watching Euro Asian Bob !!

[@samjohnson2801]

This guy isn't either

[@riskinhos]

he's wrong dude.

[@taylorc2542]

Why won't Porsche do the right thing? Isn't this a class action thing?

[@Ryan66437]

Only on displacements over 2.7l, pre 2009. This is a well known fault. From my research you change out the water thermometer for a new one with a lower temp trigger and this issue shouldn't occur. According to various sources I found when researching these cars this happens because the cylinder walls overheat in parts which weakens the coating. Maybe cold starts exacerbate the issue. Then again I bought a base model cayman with the 2.7l engine because they don't have this problem. So this is all conjecture on my part.

[@justinrobert6573]

It blows up. Period. Porsche engines are junk and I have many.

[@robertedwards6438]

when an engine is rebuilt to fix this problem, the cylinders are drilled out and new sleeves are put in with a better material. poor materials on the original engine is what causes it.

[@Lucasguertler]

Kind of right, kind of not.. M96/M97 engines die from too much heat - thats right. But its more like a cracked cyclinderhead what you get from an engine that runs too hot. Changing your thermometer helps keeping the engine a lot cooler when you drive it - but as soon as you are stuck in traffic, the car will overheat exactly as much as it does when you run the OEM thermometer. The more displacement your engine has, the more scoring will accrue. 2,7s are the least likely engines to get the borescoring, 3,8 on Carrera S models are the ones that get it the most. Get your engine checked before you buy a M96/M97 Porsche and do a thermometer swap to the 987S thermometer, change the cooling fluid and tweak the radiatorfans to spin higher BEFORE the engine hit the 102 degree spot :D

[@Ryan66437]

@@Lucasguertler Thanks, great to get a knowledgeable response, hadn't heard the bit about the fans before.

[@Lucasguertler]

@@Ryan66437 the fans start to spin on the second speed as soon as the watertemp reaches 102-104 degree (from factory). The normal fanspeed is enabled when you use the climatecontrol. Changing to the 987s thermostat helps to keep the temperatures down a bit longer - as I already mentioned - but really getting them down even when you stuck in traffic is only possible with the fan modification. I think you can program them to start spinning on the second speed when the temperature hits 99 degree 😂

[@theroadtripchannelrtc3160]

Here in the UK the bore scoring issue is very well documented, and often brought up well before the IMS when buying one. Most of the Gen2 models of the 987/997 cayman/911 are free from these issues.

[@MrMikeT89]

Makes sense, similar climate to the northeast USA if I'm not mistaken. Curious, how often/how much snow do you get?

[@jake78441]

Oh ye bore score so normal on porsches

[@__Ben]

@@MrMikeT89 Depends massively on what part of the country you're in.

[@MrMikeT89]

@@__Ben I was under the impression even southern UK gets some snow

[@Richard_Turner]

@@MrMikeT89 most years usually enough to bring it to a total stop.. so like 1 or 2mm 🤣

[@NickTarterOKC]

I'm here for all the EuroAsian Bob content. He seems like a super chill guy and he's a good storyteller.

[@Big_M_T]

I know, right? Honestly was only planning on watching a few minutes and ended up watching the whole thing! Good stuff!

[@DasCayman]

130,000 miles on my 997.1 C2S. Only issue is having to check engine oil level once a month and adding a bit more as it burns it off.

[@Alex-fe5fz]

You got bore score then

[@DasCayman]

It was a bad AOS@@Alex-fe5fz

[@thumbgas888]

​@@Alex-fe5fzyes but he have enjoyed his car for 130k miles and still going

[@YumboYack2521]

I bought a 997.1 carrera S. Get a bore scope and oil analysis as part of the PPI, a good shop will remove the oil pan and do a thorough scoping from the bottom of the bores, costs an extra $500 but worth the investment. Ticking, smoke at start up, soot on the left exhaust are tell tale signs but you can still have scoring without any of these symptoms. The value of these vehicles have gone up considerably, wait lists for rebuilds are even longer since a rebuild makes more financial sense now. For cold climate cars, make sure you warm up the car by driving it right away and not letting it idle, just be sure not to take it past 3k rpm. Once it’s warmed up (190 is ideal) then you can flog on it.

[@creativegiacomo]

excellent info.

[@johnwayne2103]

Interesting, I Always thought the opposite, you started the car and let it warm up before you drove it.

[@BlixemBlixem]

@@johnwayne2103 It takes longer to warm up when idling. So now you have an engine that is cold (and hence higher wear) for a longer period. Just be sure not to rev it hard when it is cold. But per above, start it and drive off normally until it is up to temp.

[@garysimpson3900]

Greetings from England. The leading Porsche M96/7 engine repair garage over here is Hartech. They say it is not a case of "If" your engine will bore score but "when". Like the IMS, bore score is a design flaw issue mainly occurring on cylinders 5 & 6 due to inadequate cooling. By the time the water in the jacket gets to the second bank of cylinders it has already absorbed excess heat. So much heat is generated that the viscosity of the oil between piston & cylinder wall is inadequate. Friction between piston ring & cylinder wall cause pieces of silicate in the Lokosil cylinder coating can become loose, break off & become trapped between piston ring & cylinder wall. This then scrapes further pieces of silicate off the coating causing further damage. I purchased a 997 3.6 new in 2005 when of course IMS & bore scoring was not public knowledge. When it later emerged, I was constantly in fear of major repair bills that I no longer enjoyed the car & sold it.

[@robinoconnor1203]

GT3 and Turbo have a different, they use the Mezger engine which does not suffer from Bore Score or IMS/RMS problems. Gen 1 997 cars appear to suffer more Bore score issues than the 996 cars, less cooling area I believe, which leads to overheating. Do not rev the engine until its fully warmed through.

[@warrenlucier5796]

They changed the piston skirt coating, due to the former coating being outlawed, and the mix for the Lokasil sleeves that are cast into the case halves; that's why the problem became even worse. The 9A1 replaced the M96, M97 & the Mezger with a total new design I refer to as Mezger Junior.

[@MBSLC]

Factory improved M96 short blocks still available from Porsche $15,000 with $4,000 core. A friend just bought one. Don't forget about cracked heads that leak coolant into the crankcase. And the plastic chain guides that disintegrate and the pieces end up in the oil filter and everywhere else. It was the first time the Porsche dealer here in Nashville had ever ordered a factory short block. Get yours before they're gone.

[@michaelf.2449]

Nashville represent!

[@MBSLC]

@@michaelf.2449 yeah Michael!

[@THEFUNNYfilms]

Contact Spragens Law in Nashville, they do class action lemon law cases.

[@michaelf.2449]

@@THEFUNNYfilms this wouldn't fall under lemon law at all. Best option is some kind of negligence or unjust enrichment type claim

[@THEFUNNYfilms]

They do class action consumer protection cases. My wife is an attorney I just watch car videos.

[@Tripp426]

I'm very familiar with the IMS issue but I had never heard of the bore scoring before in such detail. Thanks for the very valuable info, Bob!

[@henryatkinson1479]

Its actually pretty well documented on 996 and 997 boards like Rennlist. The cold-start and idle warm-up leading to scoring is well-known and has been for at least 5 years at this point. Also, its not a guarantee. My 996 spent almost 20 years in MN (did 105k miles there, now in CA) shows 0 signs of scoring. Also if you have a 996 and the engine craps out (be it IMS or this), its probably no more expensive to modify the chassis and harness to fit a GT3 engine in. At least 2 996s over on Rennlist have had that done now.

[@christopherkraft1327]

Bob is a great guy, his stories are always good!!! 👍

[@dannymac6368]

Thank goodness I went for the 991.1. Had a 997.2 C2S lined up but let it go despite a great price on a wonderfully optioned car. 100,003 miles on the 3.4L 9A1 and it’s been amazing.

[@jibmaster]

You do know the DFI 9A1 engine is in the 997.2 AND the 991.1 correct? Alusil cylinder liners are used in these 9A1's and has proven more reliable. I have an 09' C4S with 158K. Uses a qt every 4-5K (which is hardly anything). Oil changed every 5K Mobile one. I feel like the lower mileage cars should be concerning rather than a high mileage examples with good service histories. 991.1 is a beautiful car. Congrats. Buying any Porsche at an auction is a huge gamble! Know your seller! PPI folks!!

[@dannymac6368]

@@jibmaster I didn’t realize it already switched over by the 997.2! That’s awesome and thank you! Congrats on yours as well, I’m a huge fan! 100% agree with high mileage not being a concern on these 9A1 motors, I’ve never been more confident in a powerplant before. Come to think of it, haven’t heard many horror stories concerning the low mileage ones in particular, either!

[@sprintermaximus]

I am a victim of this as well on my 996 C2. I had failure at 113k. I bought a warm weather motor with 39k on the clock from a reputable gearbox shop and swapped it in. I only use 15w50 Mobil1, not the watery 0w40 stuff. The car is considered a vintage car, by Porsche, and the 15w50 is recommended oil by them as well. But, cars kept garaged, warmed correctly, etc., should last a long time. My bro had a similar car that went 167k before being totaled by a deer. Regardless, bore scoring is a major issue, and more important than the 5-8% failures by IMS. In my opinion. Interesting episode as well. The people that offload cars with these issues knowingly need to be karma'd.

[@greg12m3]

15w50 is way to heavy on the cold side.

[@sprintermaximus]

@@greg12m3 It can be, if you are starting in zero degree. Which, I would think most people including myself, do not. So 15w is perfect if starting the car in a garage with some level of heat. Shouldn't be an issue. Ever. My tyres are not even rated for less than 40° anyway. Welp, this conversation could go on for ages.

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

Yea technically anything over 20 years is considered vintage.

[@damon2k9]

Also, high revs when the engine is cold does it. I own a 2007 911. I baby mine until it hits normal temperature.

[@augustsawzak5401]

What kind of revs are you talking about? I usually shift around 3000-4000, even when cold because that feels right. Is that higher than you would go?

[@HallsoftheSummer]

@@augustsawzak5401 in my 05 Boxster S I stay below 3k if I can help it

[@Liplip40]

I stay below 3k until the oil temp hits 200f. Watch the oil temp not the coolest. Maybe that’s what they added that gauge in the 997…

[@ohmyggg]

@@augustsawzak5401 rules of thumb I’ve gathered over the years re:engine health and avoiding bore scoring are: 1) drive off fairly quickly after starting the engine (anywhere from immediately after turning the key to right after the cold start enrichment cycle completes), then 2) only ever “warm up” the engine gradually by driving at RPMs below ~3500 until oil temps are at least 185 (ignore coolant temp as it always comes up to temp quickly and does not give accurate readings past 175), 3) do not lug or put too much torque stress/load on the engine during that time, 4) try to avoid short trips in which the car never fully comes up to operating temp, and lastly, 5) give it the occasional Italian tune up after the car is fully warmed up of course.

[@ohmyggg]

In addition, -always use top tier high octane (92/93) fuel. Chevron and Shell are a plus since they contain good additive packages. Ethanol free would also be a nice bonus since ethanol’s hygroscopic/water holding nature appears to have corrosive effects within the fuel system, particularly the injectors. -frequent oil changes of 5k/6months, or dial in your OCIs by trend analyzing UOA and experimenting with different oils and intervals. -watch out for leaky fuel injectors and consider proactively replacing them every 60k-80k miles - watch out for vacuum leaks which could be causing the engine to run significantly rich (supposedly +\- 20% fuel can being added or subtracted before a CEL is triggered)

[@willrayment9544]

My friend had this problem.. sold it on with known fault. Very sad. Beautiful car.

[@TheYjmfan]

I have a 2002 Boxster 2.7 92k mileage runs beautiful never had a problem with it.

[@pauljoyquilter359]

I think that Hartech in the UK have done the most extensive research into this subject. You can request their whitepaper which is extremely detailed and informative. They explain why the Nikasil and the later options to harden the cylinders are different and what mods they do in order to fix the issue.

[@alanwayte432]

The reality is bore score is a very small percentage, I have had three 997s absolutely no issues

[@kondor99999]

That’s like saying cancer from radiation exposure isn’t a big deal because there’s only a 10% lifetime risk. It’s a big deal when it happens to YOU.

[@cascade_Luke]

My 997.2 Targa 4S had 3 engines by 65k miles before I sold. Newer 9A1 engine. Understand the truth.

[@mongo_sk]

Seems not really a small percentage anymore, a lot of 997.1s have bore scoring now. It's more of a when rather than a if especially if you live in colder climates..

[@AB-sr9mc]

That's because you haven't checked the problem. A lot of these cars have the problem at the early stages which show no symptoms but it's still there..

[@machspeed420]

I have a 997.1 C4S that I have been daily driving for the most part for 3 years now. It has been trouble free, and is a blast to drive. While there are documented issues like this, they are generally rare occurrences. These cars need to be warmed up for 15 to 20 mins before driving hard. Oil also needs to be changed frequently. If you find a well cared for example, you will not have any problems.

[@augustsawzak5401]

Porsche didn't help the issue by recommending 15k oil changes lol

[@onethirdmayo8556]

Turns out my decision of going for the most basic bone 2.5 boxster was a right choice. Instantaneous throttle response from the pull cable, minimal ims bearing issue, and the engine seems to be too primitive to suffer bore scoring after some researches. Most importantly, it is cheaper than an MR2 and Elise even NC miatas right now.

[@racingdatasystems3708]

You discovered exactly why we chose the 2.5 car as the base car for Spec Boxster/BoxsterSpec. Super reliable.. even when raced! The 2.5 (and 2.7) has the thickest cylinders out of all the blocks.

[@onethirdmayo8556]

@@racingdatasystems3708 Just curious, so does that mean it`s actually even better than the boxster S as a track toy running cost wise?!

[@klaspeppar5619]

I really like these Euro Asian Bob stories, keep them up.

[@augustsawzak5401]

I bought a 997 carrera s with 125,000 miles on it, and had a compression and leakdown test done on it. It came back with numbers better than factory spec, so hopefully I should be good for a good number of years with good maintenance.

[@henryatkinson1479]

Still do a borescope if you ever have the oilpan or plugs out.

[@augustsawzak5401]

@@henryatkinson1479 I would think the leakdown and compression test would be more sensitive, no?

[@henryatkinson1479]

@@augustsawzak5401 Borescope tells you more than the condition of the cylinder walls. Carbon buildup, oil slude (if seen from pan side) etc are all important too.

[@augustsawzak5401]

@@henryatkinson1479Interesting, thanks

[@ohmyggg]

@@augustsawzak5401 apparently leak down and compression tests are not good ways of testing for bore scoring as they can provide false negatives. Best way would be to scope your cylinders from either the oil pan or spark plugs. Rennvision (Jake Raby of Flat6) has plenty of in depth videos on the topic, and specifically why leak down and compression tests are not a good test method.

[@superameric8]

Not a Porsche fan but this was great Ed! Super great info. Plus it sure beats a video of blowing up a Lambo.

[@420BudNuggets]

How can you not be a fan of Porsche??

[@superameric8]

@@420BudNuggets I was till I owned a panamera turbo.

[@RyanRoadReaper]

@@420BudNuggets they're OK cars, but overpriced for what they are. Not to mention the extremely annoying community that worships the 911 as hard as 12yr olds worship the Nissan GTR, lol

[@420BudNuggets]

@@RyanRoadReaper hahah that gtr comment was spot on. But have you driven a Porsche??

[@RyanRoadReaper]

@@420BudNuggets I've driven a 986 Boxster S. It felt just how I would expect a rear engined Miata would feel on some good coilovers, if they made them. I've also been a passenger on a 996 Turbo. Cool car, but I wouldn't pay 50k for one of them.

[@duckduckdiecast3324]

Wow, thats great to know. Thanks for the great info EuroAsianBob!

[@russell11fitzgerald]

The locker seal freezes in cold climates breaking it down making it easier for the piston rings to wear it out the weight of the piston on the bottom of the boar combined with the coldstart is what is causing it like a seal does not perform a negative temperatures

[@jsquared1013]

There is nothing to do with a "seal", he's mispronouncing the "Sil" in NikaSil / AluSil / LokaSil coatings. The "-sil" part is for the silicon.

[@finnianfitzsimons623]

Would love to see a video talking about repainting cars and some tips for getting cars painted

[@Raynl1978]

When I worked at the dealership, I noticed cold climate Cayenne and Panameras with the v8 and 1 991 had oil pressure control valves leeching oil into the wiring harness. Talked to techs down south who had never seen that happen

[@Shadow0fd3ath24]

The IMS is so easy to fix and cheap that its insane...people have just hyped it up and instantly bought the $1200+ LNE setup and that they think thats the norm. I did mine for under $450 including ceramic bearing, gaskets, and oil change. The bearing is under $115 online and is a STANDARD size bearing(96- early 01 is a 5204 2rs, mid 01-05 is a 6204 2rs) just gotta make sure its a steel cage

[@005AGIMA]

easy on a 986/996. Impossible on the 987/997.1 without tearing down the whole engine. Porsche: It's not really a problem. Also Porsche: yeah we deleted the IMS from the .2.....no reason.

[@mattharvey78]

You rock Bob! I was thinking of getting one of these. Now no more!

[@herrfinke1]

Go for it! Live it up! LOL

[@Palvader]

As someone who sold a B7 Audi S4, I got used to the constant barrage of people asking if the timing chains on the 4.2 V8 were done. Fortunately, I had just done them shortly before the sale:)

[@DonziGT230]

Being that it's the bottom of the cylinders and related to cold weather I'm guessing the cause is unburnt gas washing the oil off on cold starts. Another possibility is water condensation from short trips. Maybe both?

[@gregriley1708]

I am so glad I saw this when I did. I have been searching and was about to buy a boxster, but thanks to EuroAsian Bob's testimony, I believe I may opt for an S2000. It would be good to know if/when the lock-a-seal engine ended though. As there are some good deals on the 2005-2013 boxster currently. Only good deals if they don't have the egg shell engine tho.

[@CephBacon]

Have been planning on getting a Cayman myself but this may make me pivot to an S2K as well. I've been planning on an engine swap anyway but that would be after a few years of ownership

[@jonkeau5155]

S2000’s are insanely fun to drive, but man those interiors are tight. Feels like you’re a finger in a tight glove by the time you get in… but still, very fun and reliable car! I used to work as a mechanic at a Honda dealership!

[@josecmunozromero]

Are you located in a “cold Climate” state?! I live in Florida and am still interested in purchasing a boxster.

[@CephBacon]

@@ozarkliving7263 it's also a boat of a GT car. Completely different kind of sports car from a boxster or s2k

[@inspire6837]

I have a 2008 Base cayman. A borescope costs about $400 at a shop during a pre purchase inspection. Zero issues on mine at 85k miles (base engine) and I enjoy the driving experience much more than my roommates AP1 S2000

[@igotaction]

Send the blocks out to get Nikasil lined. There is a company in Wisconsin, I will be contacting them as I have a customer who wants to do a Mercedes M177 Hot V but you can't sleeve it because of coolant channels in the closed deck block.

[@MX304]

There are better options than Nikasil at this point. TriCom is the one we have been using in a lot of motorcycle applications and it has proven to be a lot more wear resistant without causing other issues. USC Technologies out of CT can do it, and I'm sure there are a few other shops as well.

[@igotaction]

@@MX304 thank you so much I will look into that, I knew there are other technologies I just didn't know anyone in the states is doing them. Thanks.

[@richardcalon3724]

I think you will find a vast majority of the bore scored cars are the higher performance variants that use the pistons with the printed-on iron wear layer. The lower performance and smaller engined cars used a fully iron plated piston that have a much reduced piston coating failure rate. I stand to be corrected but I don't think the problem is with the the Lokasil which if I understand correctly is not a coating but a method of including silicon into the aluminium case material. The silicon is localized in the cylinder bores as part of the die casting process rather than plated as in the Nikasil process.

[@hockey4life4560]

It is known in the Porsche community now that proper warm-up is a MUST for that generation of engine. Running the engine cold absolute kills the motor.

[@ashleybarham8518]

Very well known in the UK, wheeler dealers even did an episode were they drop a 3.8 and have it rebuilt with the better coating and bearings.

[@moneymoney733]

He's on point with everything. Including, the climate point..another thing he could of added was,short trips. Those cars don't like short trips. 2 issues...for starters when starting the car,it is recommended to drive off immediately and keep the revs under 3k RPMs. Secondly,those cars have to be at full operating temperature before driving them like a Porsche. If you,let your car warm up then gasses get stuck and are never expelled unless driven for at least 20 minutes. If you start it and drive off and go over 3k revs...you have a higher chance of developing bore scoring. They are still awesome cars,you just have to plan before your drive. This is not a "im gonna go get a snack from the gas station type of car" unless,you're willing to go to one thats 20 minutes away. One downside to buying warmer climate cars....there is chance they got flooded by a storm or just rain/convertibles. If you keep these in a garage then it's a win.

[@rationalthinker9181]

Also the temperature is oil temp which takes 10 min to 15 min to reach optimum temp the water temp quick And where I live I have never seen less than 17 degrees on my oil so start real slow before you hammer the car

[@windronner1]

Another great Euro-Bob story. I was first made aware on ‘wheeler dealers’ over a year ago. I actually worked my way through college as a Porsche tech with a ton of bmw experience and hundred years ago on all the pre 3ltr’s. Between the timing chains on specific bmw’s. The IMS bearings and now this scoring. My faith in specific models and years for German cars is crap. LoL

[@herrfinke1]

Right! Imagine if GM had these problems with their Corvette!? I don't think people would put up with it as do German car fans do. It's because they're so damn pretty!..?

[@kylegungamers2755]

I was aware of this engine on the early NA v8 engines. Interesting to see it on the 911 and boxster. Luckily it appears my old 987S dodged the issue despite having over 100k on it in the NE. I don't think Porsche is any worse then most car makers when it comes to these problems. I think we just hear about it because its a Porsche. No one blinks if a 15 year old chevy cobalt blows up its engine at a rate of 5%.

[@ATEC101]

How much does it cost to replace the Cobalt engine (mass produced, engineered for economics) compared to the 'should have been overly engineered to the highest German standards because we are Porsche and that is why it cost so much'? At least when BMW ate their motors they didn't flinch.

[@kylegungamers2755]

@@ATEC101 In an as from factory cost I bet they represent a similar percentage value of the vehicle. I mean don't get me wrong, it sucks and I would be livid if it happened to me but old cars blowing up the powertrain is hardly Porsche exclusive and parts on expensive cars remain expensive even as the vehicles age. Its why you can buy a used S class for less them a Camry at a certain point in the depreciation curve. Always do your homework on expensive cars that have become cheap.

[@johnyaskoveakarpaccio4737]

lol true tho!

[@davidtrust8274]

It's still a relatively small percentage of affected vehicles and they tend to be C4S driven in Northrrn climates (as C2S are mostly summer-only cars there). Also, it's the warm-up cycle (particularly impacting #6 cylinder) in conjunction with cold start which is why a low temp thermostat might help mitigate. Fuel mixing with oil in cars running too rich (all climates) can erode the lokasil liner which is why frequent oil changes help mitigate too. Bottom line the 997.1 3.8L is still a magnificent car and these risks can easily be mitigated.

[@dd-oq7jm]

Just another fan boy trying to down play the issue. Porsche fucked up plain and simple, to have engine failure due to living in a colder climate is unacceptable.

[@davidtrust8274]

@@dd-oq7jm lol...very intelligent reply...name calling and foul language.

[@dd-oq7jm]

@@davidtrust8274 its 2022 not 1960, harden the fuck up

[@maxwellsimard4135]

Bore scoring is not an underplayed or unrecognized problem in the community. Mostly affected 997.1 with the M96 and M97 engines. The 997.2 introduced in 2009 with the 9A1 DFI engine is known to be generally immune to bore scoring. If he was knowledgeable he would have pointed out this distinction. That is one of the big reasons the 997.2s have increased in value disproportionately faster than the very similar 997.1.

[@johnkluge3421]

The 997.2 also went back to an oil fed IMS bearing.

[@maxwellsimard4135]

@@johnkluge3421 the 997.2 has no IMS bearing at all.

[@johnkluge3421]

@@maxwellsimard4135 No. It has an oil fed one.

[@wolfmanradio]

Just bore it out and sleeve every cylinder. Probably well south of $10k for the entire thing if you hand the block to the machine shop ready to go. In the end, you could be in around $35k-$45k for a sorted 997, which isn’t bad. Can anyone think of any flaws in that logic?

[@feddy11100]

please do more vids like this. what are the most common issues on some of these super cars?

[@kimthomas3005]

So this commonly talked about in Porsche community, and advice is always get a boroscope done before buying. This will likely be a bigger issue than IMS, seams to affect mostly lower mileage cars that are not used much particularly later M96 engined cars with bigger capacities, the smaller capacity cars have less lateral forces involved and less likely to suffer, also early ones if survived I believe have nikasil liners (if survived as they stopped using as the high sulphur content in cheap petrol in late 90s early 2000s destroyed them all) which dont wear as much. Ticking is sometimes AOS failure which is relatively cheap to fix. Avoid leaving your Porsche to idle to warm up better to drive but keep to low revs til warm and use regularly to avoid this, garage queens beware!

[@Mp-jw1qg]

my 997 turbo stock motor, runs e85 and pure turbos, 700whp, going on 120k miles., i drive it 500 miles per week. 0 issues in the decade ive owned it. im also out in 100f summer southern california so maybe thats why lol

[@GearheadDaily]

Yep, bore scoring is a major issue with these Porsche's, great cars otherwise.

[@terminal-velocity111]

They’re great if you’re happy for the engine to fail?

[@GearheadDaily]

@@terminal-velocity111 No, not all have this issue, but once its fixed they are perfect cars

[@CrackedCandy]

@@GearheadDaily until they die in another 50k

[@Stribogboi]

Bore scoring is pretty rare to be honest. I've owned three porsches of that era including cold weather cars and I've never had engine issues. They have all been incredibly reliable.

[@theanomalous1401]

Hey there@@GearheadDaily! How are ya doing, my friend? Speaking of perfect cars, how is the Vette holding up? Now that you've got warmer weather at home, I'm sure you'll be terrorizing the roads and disturbing some peace before too long, aye? Regards, to the family, Eric. We can sure use one of your car stories, it's been too long. #GearheadForLife #BoreScoreAndSevenYearsAgo

[@pktesq]

oh ya - cylinder 6 bore scoring in 05 997.1 C2S resulted in check engine light at 95K miles. Considered boaring out to 4.0L but it was too badly scored. The rebuilt engine was expensive and difficult to get due to Singer. It was about a year between detecting the problem and having the engine replaced.

[@robertperillo8738]

The crazy thing is these cars just continue to appreciate at a rapid rate. Even 996’s are way way up.

[@RuggedIrish]

Dutch tulips.

[@robertperillo8738]

@@RuggedIrish I hope you’re right because I want one but I dont think so, 964s and 993s never went down once they started appreciating.

[@RuggedIrish]

@@robertperillo8738 Right or wrong, I certainly want one less now. I expected more quality control from such a high end manufacturer. Whether the tulips come down or not I'm now even more so inclined to convince myself of the beauty of mums.

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

@@robertperillo8738 no offense can you really afford the maintenance cost of an air-cooled 911? I've heard of engine rebuilds going going north of 30k....... If you gonna buy a 911 assuming your a true driver enthusiast, air-cooled are gods chariots.........

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

@@RuggedIrish I find all this interesting since modern Porsche reliability has been compared to Lexus and Toyota. They've been ranked 3 at consumer report for years now..... Also the 911 has the highest percentage of vehicles still on the road then any other model car.

[@CEEPMDEE]

I want to give a shout to Rich & Doug who owned and ran a body repair shop in the north Bronx NYC, not far from Mount Vernon & Yonkers NY. They gave me a look as if I was a complete moron back in 2008 when I told them I was saving to buy a 996. I went home and researched the 996 to figure out what the dirty look was about. After hearing about the issues with the 996, I decided to get a 993 C4s instead. That look they gave me saved me a lot of money and grief.

[@MC-pb3lu]

So the solution is, similar to the IMS issue, buy a turbo car? Or just buy from the south and pray. Recently I noticed with my friends new Audi S4 the ECU won't allow revs to go over a certain level until the engine is fully warmed up. Is that a new thing? Seems like that would have solved these mid 2000s issues.

[@Stribogboi]

Just buy a higher mileage car to avoid IMS issues. The bearing needs lubricated which is why a sitting low mileage Porsche of that era isn't a good buy.

[@zyncra3965]

That is indeed intentional, yes

[@volvo09]

I've heard of a few performance cars that do that. With the higher power density of the engine it's probably easier to cause damage if you are a complete fool and cold start the car and imediately do full throttle pulls. The pistons expand before the cylinders and you get scoring damage. Something I'd only expect to find on a performance engine. Although I did hear of a Honda tsb years ago caused by high load cold starts (living where the owner would fire up the car in winter and imediately going up a long incline was mentioned in the recall as causing the most severe damage). I think Honda covered some of these.

[@Richard_Turner]

It's a modern car thing, soft limiter, believe it's more emissions related than engine wear related.

[@TucsonDude]

@@Stribogboi The IMS bearing is sealed. Not externally lubed. Ticking time bomb.

[@ExtraLargeRecords]

We lost my wife’s 996.2 Cab to this and she was less than thrilled when it literally became a paperweight on wheels.

[@mikemartenson4357]

I have a Cayman S 3.4 987.1 no problems, so far. I did become a PCA member and schooled myself on their videos on this subject, I suggest this in the due diligence as well as a PPI. The type of oil and gas you use and proper start up procedure are explained in detail.

[@edventures9884]

I really want a 996, starting to love the headlights now because it’s unique but prices keep going up… hopefully I can snatch one up soon

[@herrfinke1]

I bought one in May 0f 2020 and sold it in July of 2021 (after a loud, nasty cold start up that never returned, but I was scared). I paid 20K US $ and sold for 18K 1999 Silver/Black C2 Coupe with 63K miles when I sold it and 59K miles when I bought it. I think the prices will come back to what I paid in 2020 in a year or so. Good luck hunting!

[@funfun5656]

I actually loved the fried egg headlights. It doesn't look quite as good with the orange bits but redone with clear side markers and retrofitted with projectors they make the car look like the GT racecar.

[@Gozar111]

Very interesting that it occurs in cold climates. Hope you get a good 997 soon. It really is a great Porsche.

[@michaell397]

Especially as Germany is a cold climate country! GRRRRR!!! + Burrrr!!!!

[@terrylessmann2274]

My 08 Cayman S Sport is coming back today or tom from engine rebuild due to bore scoring (been gone for 11 mo). It was my winter car (my 08 Boxster S Limited Edition is my summer car) and summer show car. When I was working, I'd drive 9 mi to work, no issues. When I retired, my trips were short commutes for groceries or to family. Developed bore scoring. Lots of cold starts in the cold means more fuel to warm up, which washes the lokasil off the cyl linings. Supposedly S models are more prone to BS than base models. The 9A1 engine is not immune to BS as some say, just ask Jake Raby. Looking forward to having my car back again. Should be a real hot rod now and all the faults from Porsche have been addressed.

[@augustoferreira3647]

Could it be that cold weather cars are not used enough ? So the cold start after a long time without use damages the engine more than a car that has regular use. Also in your research did you find out which cars have the Lokasil. I had a 993 and those were Nikasil, on the 997 I know the Turbo and the GT cars had the Mezger Engines, those should be Nikasil, no?

[@nolesy34]

Rapid change from hot to cold is more damaging but the good thing about cool is that it is more dense giving you the option to advance igntion timing, That and it keeps the turbo cool

[@ohmyggg]

Gen 1 cylinder surface = Lokasil, Gen 2 = Alusil, Gen 1 Turbo & GT = Nikasil

[@brianhap22]

Just bought a 997.2 last year and appreciate this video. Luckily my car came from Texas to California so hoping I won't experience the bore scoring. Thanks for this!

[@Ti-sq8jm]

U have dfi engine. Port injection cars get bore scoring. Dfi do not

[@ashleybudgen740]

@@Ti-sq8jm They do, its much rarer on the 9A1 DFI engine but it has been documented especially on cars that were driven hard before being brought up to temperature early in their life

[@brianhap22]

@@Ti-sq8jm thank you for sharing that. Still learning about this car

[@mak23997]

Remember, doesn't affect the turbos and GT's. Thankfully they used the nikasail.

[@herrfinke1]

The 1 percenters thank you.. LOL

[@thedukeofwales]

This guy had me all worried that my Porsche is a ticking time bomb until he finally mentioned that it doesn’t effect the Turbo models

[@Emira_75]

Cool story bro

[@thedukeofwales]

@@Emira_75 you sound poor

[@slickar2752]

Thanks for the cold weather insight.

[@Flies2FLL]

1. IMS bearing failure occurs on approximately 9% of M96 series engines. 2. Bore scoring on the later 9A1 engine is extremely rare, but it has occured when the engine is run hard while cold. That is most likely the cause of bore scoring on the M96. I've never bought a car without driving it first and I doubt I ever will. Great video!

[@ashleybudgen740]

9A1 3.8 is a gem, but yea part of the problem is people see the water up to temp and assume the car is good to go, it takes nearly 3 times as long for the oil to get up to temp and many ignore that

[@TucsonDude]

IMS bearing is still a ticking time bomb, tho. I'm absolutely aghast that any manufacturer would install a non-lubed SEALED BEARING inside an engine. It will fail, sooner or later.

[@Flies2FLL]

@@ashleybudgen740 Precisely!

[@mbryson2899]

Thank you for the head'-up. I appreciate that this channel includes those.

[@mk3whitewide]

This happens to audi v8 4.2 NA aswell. No ticks though, just misfires from zero compression.

[@BigDavoNorriwong]

Poor B7 RS4s :(

[@Donkey2454]

I had this similar issue in a 2002 WRX. I believe it was because of the previous owner(first owner) not letting the engine warm up properly before driving it hard.

[@cesar-lf1jw]

No way really I just bought a 2002 wex

[@dominickdolio2414]

I know all about the bearing. Had a 911 I tried to sell for a year and everyone vanished when I had no paperwork to back it up, as would I. THIS issue… much worse.

[@robertdevald]

I wonder if adding just a tiny bit of premix oil would help with preventing that? Keep the cylinder lubricated on cold starts as it's in the gas? Or am I talking out my ass?

[@bendowns5737]

Thank you! Been looking at Porsches lately. Now I know better!

[@westrx7]

Been there, done that. 2007 Cayman S (987, 3.4L) in the Puget Sound of the Pacific NW. Hardly a cold weather climate.

[@therealist5680]

My 2005 987S was ticking at 30,000 miles at cold idle. Porsche tech said it was the lifters. That Boxster lasted 203,000 miles with plenty of spirited driving. Bore scoring may be an issue, but the ticking might not be a true symptom and a correctly built Porsche can definitely last driven daily. No IMS issues and 5-7000 mi oil changes. Do not follow their recommended schedule. Also, Porsche engines in general usually make quite a racket and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

[@Poorschedriver]

Well said. Additionally, I don't believe the 3.2 have many bore score stories. I was of the impression the larger displacement engines have forged pistons which wear down the coating faster. Combined with hot engine temperatures and poor oil change maintenance and you can end up with scoring. I've also noticed they can be particular with different oil viscoscitites and sometimes the lifters do get gummed up if the cars aren't driven hard.

[@damianl3]

Absolutely right. IMS will affect some of these cars, but bore scoring will affect most of them eventually. I have walked away from 3 different cars recently, when I got to see, hear, and smell the engines in person. And each one of the sellers became angry and one became deranged and was yelling at me. The P-car community is in complete denial. Used dealers don't help either. I asked for bore scope imaging on a 60k mile 996 C4 Cab at a dealer and he flatly refused and kicked me out of the dealership.

[@xman777b]

did you try for an oil analysis? Can't blame anyone for not wanting to open up the bottom of the cylinders..

[@groznoy]

I’m not a car dealer and after spending just a couple of months of reading and tracking prices, I knew about this problem. Hell, i read about the first day I read comments on BaT auction for 997.1. That’s why I got 997.2

[@timmietz]

Interesting. I had a 2006 3.8 car. Sold it with 93K Miles. The car was bulletproof. My car was an Arizona car, so that may have made a difference I guess.

[@fryeguyfrye5520]

We appreciate your information! As we’re looking hard into buying. Thanks

[@dimiturmihailov8670]

Finally someone said it-IMS is a problem for Porsche BUT not huge.From all cars the % of really failed is very little.

[@211212112]

I know where an old Chevy yellow truck exact model as that one is with less than 40k on it I’d say. Maybe alot less. Water drips from the exhaust. It was barely used them garage parked.

[@joef2593]

I got burned the EXACT same way man...only lost 2k but it was about a year nightmare working with a mechanic, calling junkyards, engine rebuilders, it was a nightmare. I was so happy to be done with it. Honestly if you can afford it I would recommend an engine swap to Honda or something similar, spice it up with some goodies and a nice exhaust system. it will be 1000x more reliable.

[@robertanna9964]

Great info Bob, BUT- Why on Earth did you decide to spare the selling dealers name? I'll never understand this. Hoovie too. He's documented nearly every single "sight unseen" purchase that turned out to be a unrepresented/misrepresented/not disclosed screwjob. And yet, names of the selling dealers are NEVER disclosed.

[@mitchotoole9876]

I was selling a 911 for a detailing client of mine and every conversation began and ended with "iS tHe ImS DoNe." The first guy that came and looked at it bought it and got a nice car, had the IMS done, and enjoyed it for a few years. I have an early 996 911 and did the same and it's been enjoyable ownership so far. The BIG issue with the cars from 98/99-2009? Whenever the 997.2 started is bore scoring. If you are on some of the forums there is definitely a lot of chat about it, I don't think its a big secret unless you are brand new to 996/997 cars. I think another issue besides the cold is that when it is cold people tend to start their cars and let them idle. This is also bad for the car and its recommended to start up and drive off, under 3k RPM for about 6 miles. I am always torn on whether to sell mine or not, I have a 99, and while it's less common to score bores it's not unheard of. I got mine with 50k miles under $20k and I know I will never get into a 911 for a price like that again. I guess if it happens it will just sit until I decide to fix it or I will just part it out or sell it as a roller.

[@corychecketts]

I can totally relate with you. I bought my '99 996 six years ago for $14k. It's been a fantastic car. I've kept up on the maintenance and everything works great. But I'm always thinking about what I'll do when something big goes wrong. I'll probably just park it until I decide what to do. I don't see myself getting another 911 for that kind of money ever.

[@SssagaBenches4U]

Thank you for this information! Does Cayman 987.1 also suffer from this? 2007 model?

[@kokodin5895]

is there a way to throw all the logic outside the window, bore the engine and sleeve all cylinders with old technology iron sleeves?

[@euroasianbob9268]

There is a steel sleeve remedy.

[@blakslee720]

NA v8 cayenne guys are very familiar with bore scoring, and I have read that the very cold start is a known cause. Some guys say that Liquimoly ceratec is a good preventative maintenance item for bore scoring

[@jruerph]

Yea, I use Ceratec in my Panamera

[@mronetwo0386]

Fantastic information for someone who is in the market for a 997/996

[@malcolmbriggs4281]

My father used to rebore engines ,why could they not put in ordinary liners and pistons.

[@Thewhitetile]

Sounds like they need a more viscous engine oil if you plan to run your car in the colder months up north. Maybe a little bit on all of them. something to help with oiling on cold start. Even the warm weather cars will eventually end up with this. Its just slowed down.

[@doughill5487]

*less viscous

[@Thewhitetile]

@@doughill5487 Of course. That is what I get for multi-tasking. haha thank you.

[@imSchwaggy]

i should try and find one for cheap and hold on to it for when the class action suit comes and they fix them all for free.

[@TucsonDude]

Those usually run out after a few years like the IMS bearing did.

[@garywilloughby6893]

997 Bore score cold climate kills..lock-a seal..

[@situationalawarenes]

Cold weather start means rich mixture which is washing away the oil film on the lower cylinder wall

[@Engineerd3d]

Allot of the "coated" cylinder cars have this issue from late 90s to very late 2ks. Even nikasil coated cars are starting to show this issue. Including the famous m113 engines from the other Stutgard manufacturer. One more interesting tibit. Allot of those Stutgard cars have Chinese made chains and guides that may or may not be of the proper alloy.

[@dannsmcshane1233]

In the UK it's the same but not as cold the thing is as a parts car they still sell for over 20.000

[@avinii]

Lokasil is not the problem. Thermal issues and the open deck design is the problem. The water gauge shows 10-15 celcius less then what its supposed to show. The thermostats are placed where the water exits from coolers, so not optimal for a good reading. Because of all the extreme heat and the thin walls of the 3.8 open deck design, cylinders get oval after a time and start to bore score.

[@rickgregoire9041]

I wonder if you could sleeve these things. Back in the 70s I used to sleeve Vega blocks all the time and they were so much better afterwards, it's wonder Chevy never did it from the get-go.

[@RaspingPompano2]

Can you sleeve the motor? I obviously don't know anything about a Porche, that's why I'm asking..

[@angrygardener2430]

Warm climate cars eventually develop bore scoring, it just takes longer. The oils used is a factor. For emissions Porsche used synthetics with no mineral content for protection. Porsche also claimed longer intervals between changes. Porsche’s intention was to make money, pass emissions, and advertise low cost of ownership maintenance. Unfortunately, the engines only survive the lease period and the first trade-in resale

[@klepetar]

i was looking at some used porsches here..and i think i will go back to good ol's 350z's inste4ad