Neverwinter Mod 17 Class Rankings and Class Power Balance

[@Yogizilla]

LOVE this in-depth look at the state of the game and class balancing. I would add a few sidebars. Classes can never be completely balanced in the sense that they all have the same potential. You DO want to keep them within striking distance of each other. Each expansion/mod will have preferred comps and top dogs, which is exactly what the meta you describe is. As for speed runs, we are talking a very small part of the community. The example or over an hour long run may lead people to think there is now happy medium.. but there is. Most of us are happy with getting faster runs in without minmaxing. This gives us stuff to always work towards without getting super sweaty and losing sight of fun. As such, I believe the best class balancing would involve making each paragon viable so it becomes more of a playstyle preference than an auto pick. As you alluded to, AoE damage is considered irrelevant but what if we had major encounters that required strong AoE? Boss battles typically focus on single target damage and I think that is another area that needs to be addressed. Thoughts?

[@LordWillow]

Great comment. I would argue however that most of the PUG situations while not speed runs, are looking for easier completions, and "speed runs" for the average player isn't the same as a speed run for above average groups. I agree that perfect class balance isn't truly achievable, there is just too much variation to be considered, from cool-downs on powers and frequency of hits, to base damage and feats. But I would argue that the dev team should be shooting for a +-5% max potential damage, and for DPS classes this means going with either paragon has merit, it's the only way they can truly "bust" meta prejudice. And the currently proposed damage formula actually makes it harder for them to balance. As for the AOE damage, I would love to see AOE become relevant again, like it was in some of the early dungeons we lost with M6.

[@ShreyanM]

As a Hunter Stormwarden who works best in AOE situations, I find that the only use I have in LOMM is when defeating golems that spawn in Acturia's boss battle. That said, the golems are incredibly strong and are not meant for DPSes to crunch through. The only time my AOE comes in handy is when running Queues such as the Merchant Prince's Folly, where I feel I belong. I agree that the developers should try to incorporate multiple play-styles during all aspects of a dungeon. E.g. having a Boss with AOE and with single-target adapted phases. The developers (I believe) have done a GREAT job at trying to push the game towards teamwork and using play-style (e.g. Healer, DPS, Tank) specific mechanics in LOMM and TOMM, but they definitely should think about creating mechanics which also cater to AOE and Single Target mechanics within that. That would further reduce the need for all classes (of the same type) to be damage-balanced.

[@mattg4305]

Thanks for that breakdown... i've always been under the impression that classes will never be balanced/equal.

[@LordWillow]

they never will be close to balanced for longer than a few weeks with the foundation the dev team is charging forward with. The foundation is flawed. :(

[@TheMeanArena]

They will never keep anything balanced because if they do, people won't keep spending money to rebuild their characters. I run a CW as well and they're already shitty as it is. Did they really need nerfed hard? No, they just want those that spend money to spend more money to get back what they always take. They've been doing that regularly now. The game is a joke. Every update revolves around rebuilding, taking a step backwards etc.

[@FoolsLuxury]

Brand new to the game and I'm playing a tiefling warlock. Glad I found your videos! Thanks for uploading:)

[@123NERDZ]

Mistyfrompokemon I love the tiefling race but for real good luck with the helmets the horns essentially ruin all the cool looking helmets in the game for tiefling

[@freakyfreak8429]

Bro THANK YOU so much for this video!!!!!!! I love how you broke everything down & explained stuff! I understand my Barb & W.Ranger alot better! Thanks again.

[@derwolfi8080]

Can you do another class ranking (st dps) for mod 18 with the new balancing changes?

[@LordWillow]

yeah, I've been meaning to do one soon. There are a number of changes since this video was made

[@GabDarkcore]

Top dps should be the damage only classes? if yes, the class balance is ok, if not the formula fix can help with balance (except sws XD)

[@LordWillow]

The dev team is on the record (multiple times), that their intent is for an class that can queue content as DPS should have roughly the same damage potential. Right now that isn't the case at all. And like I explained in the video you will see disparity even in the same class between paragons. a great example of this would be the wizard and ranger, which would both have a pretty big disparities in gear effectiveness between paragon paths. This isn't a discussion to get into the merits of multi-role classes having an investment advantage, this is about building understanding as a community around how class balancing is impacted by potential changes, as well as where they are starting from with class balance

[@lil_league2024]

Well thanks to latest patch those rankings have changed, cw been hit hard with the nerf hammer.

[@TheUniverseAroundUsNews]

Use Arcanist. Thaumaturge is trash now.

[@lil_league2024]

Rudy DogTV I do

[@tiagogoncalves6564]

Are u going to make a warden build video for mod 17?

[@LordWillow]

The build hasn't changed for M17 from M16, at least not enough to warrant creating a video. When the new class balancing goes in, then I'll refresh all my build videos.

[@tiagogoncalves6564]

Lord Willow classes are going to get balanced again?

[@LordWillow]

@@tiagogoncalves6564 Yes, this has been known for over a month, it could hit preview on PC as early as this week, or as late as Mod 18, we don't know the exact timing, but it's coming.

[@tiagogoncalves6564]

Lord Willow is it going to change the overall performance of the warden?

[@LordWillow]

@@tiagogoncalves6564 Only the devs know the answer to that at this point, but if class balance is being done correctly, then yes, every class and class paragon should see some movement in performance, some for the better, some for the worse.

[@joshbishop5204]

When is Sw going to get a make over?They have weak dps and even weaker healing. Honestly this makes me sad

[@LordWillow]

Rumor is that Class balance changes are being tested by the Dev team internally already. We could see changes for class balance, including on the warlock as early as this week on the preview, or as late as when Mod 18 hits preview... I'm betting that class balance changes will be part of M18, and I would expect to see Mod 18 on preview as early as next week, though more likely 2-3 weeks at least. (I have not yet looked at the calendar to be sure) Easiest way to "divine" a new mod is to look at the event calendar on PC and look for a double XP event, a month or more after console release, the new mod will typically fall immediately after the double XP, or a week after.. then just count weeks backwards (5-6 weeks) to see when to expect it on preview. They have literally followed this formula for every single mod except 6 and 16, which allows us to know a lot about the development life cycle and turn around times.

[@LordWillow]

Too add to this. The dev team added a bunch of logging into the game with mod17 with the intent to use that logging for bettering class balance. This means they probably needed 2-3 weeks of data gathering, another week to do analytics on that data, a week or more for design meetings, another week to write up specs, 2-4 weeks for initial coding, 2-4 weeks for internal testing, 1-2 weeks for QA, and if it's part of M18, 5-6 weeks of preview testing...

[@warframeop633]

Any1 know wat promissory notes will do in mod 17?

[@LordWillow]

Nothing. Foss keep teasing that they will be used for something in the future... I'm betting a potion of minor healing.

[@orcvs6297]

What skills and class features u use on your cw?

[@LordWillow]

See my M16 build video, for the most part the Arcanist portion of that build hasn't changed. I will refresh my build videos once class balance changes drop and I've had an opportunity to test those changes.

[@DopeClouds]

WHAT GEAR IS HE USING????

[@jasonduncan7901]

how is the barb now for soloing and dps??

[@LordWillow]

None of the classes have issues running solo. Even paladins which don't have a DPS paragon can solo any content meant for soloing.

[@jasonduncan7901]

@@LordWillow now how is the barb compared to the wizard??

[@LordWillow]

@@jasonduncan7901 I haven't compared the wizard directly to the Barbarian with the new damage formula, but it should be closer because of the Barbarian's ability to get extra crit sev

[@christianadkins6154]

So the rouge is currently the best dps?

[@LordWillow]

It was when I made this video.. I need to do some more testing but the ranger may have now theoretically closed the gap with the new damage formula thanks to Skirmishers gambit, the Barbarian is also likely in a much better place thanks to it's improved crit severity.

[@vbloodyassaultx7428]

The ranger is also good then? I play on ps4 and i am ranger main since mod 12 xD

[@LordWillow]

@@vbloodyassaultx7428 Yes, the ranger is in a pretty good place right now... If you play as a Warden. If you play as a Hunter.. not as good

[@vbloodyassaultx7428]

Yeah i play as a warden. Its very good for me

[@christianadkins6154]

So how would the rouge compare to the barbarian?

[@dwarfsmithcrafting6298]

wow so your saying the millenial Sheep have no time to spend in a dungeon with friends and have a meaningfull experience they just want to go in ZERG ZERG ZERG get out log off and go back to staring at their phone screen hoping for someone on social media to post something that shows the world accepts them for who they are...........I miss the old days soooo much.

[@LordWillow]

LOL, interesting way to read between the lines... If I were to attempt to divine insight behind the psychology of speed runs, I would say it was more due to the reward system, and need to run the same content repeatedly just to get the items you need to progress in the game. It's been my experience that necessity drives behavior far more than generation habits.

[@jonathanzavala4415]

I hate myself i just got this game lvl 50 warlock and oeople saying i messed up badly i bought so much :(

[@I8one2Many]

What happened with the new professions?

[@LordWillow]

spend gold and level them... until we see more recipes though the only profit is in making level 80 tools, and potions.. and that is still meager.

[@I8one2Many]

@@LordWillow I haven't even tried it yet. Thanks for the reply and the video.

[@I8one2Many]

@@LordWillow and doesn't the barbs have a deff comp that other top dps classes have all 3 off comp?

[@LordWillow]

@@I8one2Many correct, fighter and Barb are in the same spot, and get the short end of the stick with companion slots while in DPS loadout.

[@I8one2Many]

@@LordWillow I did use barb as a main until the class balancing so I switched over to a oathbound paladin which I'm having fun with. You really break it all down very well but I'm not that smart with all these calculations. Thanks again and I will await you future videos.

[@quinthblinth7251]

I get the feeling that you premote speed runs out of practicality, yes more stuff faster is always welcome, and that the composition type it means lends "less stress" and demand of coordination of the players. Please correct me if I have missunderstood you or if I missed some conclusion you made during the vid that I missed! But personally I dont share your opinion, not only because I am a dedicated healer/tank player who always pick those classes in MMORPGs, but also because it is the diversity and the complexity that makes it challenging and worth playing. Should a game boil down to it's most simple and less challenging form in order to be good? I hate the speed run concept. I play the game because I like, not because I want get things over with as fast as possible so I can continue the never ending grind that MMORPGs in essence really are.

[@LordWillow]

I understand that faster runs are generally preferred because of the nature of the MMO grind, and becasue of that grind more people currently prefer repeated faster runs. But yes, sometimes it's nice to just sit back and "smell the roses" while on voice chat with a bunch of friends, or to enjoy a hard won victory against all odds .

[@quinthblinth7251]

​@@LordWillow in a sense, yes. I can see that we both see each side of the coin. I have played different MMOs for more or less 2 decades. Not that there is anything special or uniq in that, but if there is one character type that I've often met ingame, that sort of reflects the mentality of the speed run, is the ninja-pulling - "go go go go ffs go go go" rusher who just rushes forward and God have mercy on the soul who accidently spills his coke over the keyboard causing a "massive" 3 min downtime. Not saying that this guy is you, just trying to examplify the physical representantion of the mentality, if I may be over-philosofical in the matter. My game experience atleast would be better with less of that :p! Edit: on a deeper note, I do realize that there are levels of speed-run mentality and that the exemple above sort of embodies the full scale of the whole spectrum. You are probably not promoting just that mentality, but it sort of spawns out of it automatically, wanted or not :(

[@LordWillow]

@@quinthblinth7251 :) thanks for the responses... I'm not so much promoting speed runs, as understanding why they exist, and why they are so popular... MMO's tend to "eat their own".. meaning players worst enemies are often themselves, nothing proves this more than the exclusions that occur in sections of the game like PvP and end game content like ToMM. granted some of the responsibility falls to the dev teams to recognize when player bias is based on real data, versus perception.

[@zaxtheroth3270]

Hi...nice video...so could you help me work this out... I am using a FR class.....I am just going to give you my % damage buffs of my gear head =5% damage in Undermountain arms=3% encounter damage rings =3% melee damage (x2) shirt=3% damage when stam is above 75% class feature =enduring vengeance 5% damage at will...heavy slash=5% damage for 10 sec do daily's that do melee damage ie... mow down and earth shaker still get the buffs from some of the items? also if I slotted root stoppers for 3 % ranged damage for my bull charge and reeve my power is 135k and my ca is 115k Thanks

[@LordWillow]

I haven't tested the fighter to see how it's dailies are counted. your best bet would be to get ACT and test to see if those bonuses are being applied to daily... as for bull charge, it counts as melee, not ranged

[@derwolfi8080]

Fighter dailys don't get some buffs like swordsmen's perk.

[@konetogaming4599]

a couple% doesnt matter too much

[@Kronosxviii1]

In his example he's only using small values which result is only slight differences in damage output. But the realty is that they're seeing a difference of up to 35% between the top and bottom tier classes.

[@SpectatingBystander]

Not played for over a year and I can't get my scorage warlock to work like before wtf has happened!!! It used to be epic!

[@123NERDZ]

Yeah the warlock took a major blow . The hellbringer spec no longer has any survivabilty whatsoever I have been told that the soul weaver is much easier to survive with due to the fact that it can self heal but without lifesteal and without the puppet tanking 25 /10 percent damage for the hellbringer it is extremely squishy now and very easy to die the hellbringer thrives on pillar of power which is no longer with the hellbringer spec it is now on the soul weaver spec instea d

[@SpectatingBystander]

@@123NERDZ Thanks. It's definitely broken with ZERO viability. Asked around after watching this an basically the Class is dead. Laughable survivability & trash DPS to the point anyone running a warlock build gets a >_

[@LordWillow]

@@SpectatingBystander I know of a few Warlocks holding there own... but overall, yes the warlock is in a terrible place.. but not as bad off as the DPS fighter.

[@SpectatingBystander]

@@LordWillow It feels like some real hate has gone into trashing this.

[@cellabonez]

Nice video Willow calling out barbie as an example :kappa

[@emergencybearcedures4494]

I just watched another video saying warlock buffs are insane and they will be top. Explain

[@LordWillow]

Well.. first off there is a bunch of stuff broken on the Hellbringer warlock since before M16... and even more is broken right now on the preview server, that doesn't help. Also the ranking here are the current rankings PRE-class balance, which is being worked on by the Dev team. We don't know what the class ranking will look like after "balancing". We just know that classes/ paragons that make heavy use of percent damage gain mechanics will be at a disadvantage. In another note, don't bother testing anything on preview right now until the devs get another patch on that server to fix crit, and damage bonus formulas.

[@emergencybearcedures4494]

Lord Willow Okay I’m going to comment on their video that you said they don’t know what the fuck their talking about and that they are stupid.

[@emergencybearcedures4494]

Dauda András Lol bruh I have hunter, pally, Gwf , and sw was my last but highest gear score so I hope it’s true

[@a42nut1inct]

@@emergencybearcedures4494 😂😂😂

[@dereks708]

I am your 900th subscriber........may I have a cookie?? Good stuff bro, keep it up.

[@cIappo896]

or... just keep every external buff as a... well, an external buff? If you have a somewhat balanced class vs others, and in this case like you've shown, a piece of gear increases damage in a non linear way across the classes by incorporating it into the formula, why not just add those at the end? They're overcomplicating. I thought the game was shit back in m15, after playing for over 5.5k hours. I see its no better now. Good riddance, I guess.

[@derekshapiro9593]

I am on Xbox and I’m hardly doing any damage with thaum anymore. I need the most current arcan power build with feats and everything please . Single target

[@LordWillow]

the wizard is terrible in AOE right now, period, and will probably change more in the coming weeks due to class balance changes. I'll see about getting some of the single target together for you and reply here with links.

[@derekshapiro9593]

Lord Willow please do. I have no idea what I’m doing with arcan

[@Frosty_tortuga]

You only ranked dps.

[@LordWillow]

you want me to rank healers and tanks too? I can certainly do that, but ranking tanks and healers is much more subjective, as they are much harder to actually measure.

[@LordWillow]

here is my subjective ranking of other roles: Healers: Cleric: Best Heals per Second, Best burst Heals. ToMM Viable Warlock: Second Best Heals Per second, Strength small constant streaming heals. ToMM Viable Paladin: Lowest Heals per second, Best party utility due to Temp HP mechanic. ToMM Viable Tanks: Fighter: Best Aggro pull, Best self/party damage mitigation, can block and fight. ToMM Viable Barbarian: Second best Aggro Pull, Best Hit Point potential, lowest party damage mitigation. ToMM viable Paladin: Worst Aggro Pull, most difficult to master, still very much ToMM viable

[@TheWitch297]

Guys should try FF14 raids if you think this is rough.

[@LordWillow]

Are you suggesting that FF14 has class balance issues as well?

[@TheWitch297]

@@LordWillow No. I meant what I said. Some players feel like TOMM is difficult. I probably would've felt the same way had I not started raiding in FF14. That game is very mechanic heavy, and I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 raids or dungeons in NW that could condition you for the new m17 trial.

[@TheWitch297]

@Dauda András TOMM. from reading about the mechanics involved it does remind me of FF14 raids and everything they throw at you. I think its a step in the right direction.

[@LordWillow]

@@TheWitch297 Honestly I don't think ToMM is that hard... the hard part is getting the right people together, and having everyone fill the needed roles. Unfortunately, that a pretty big ask for the majority of the community which has been conditioned to casual play.

[@TheWitch297]

@@LordWillow Yea I was just gonna say the game is more gear towards casual play. But considering what cryptic has been doing with NW lately, I'm not sure if I'll come back anytime soon.

[@Sora-o]

Less currency spent on faster runs? That's a lie lol

[@LordWillow]

absolutely less currency overall.. especially on consumables.

[@Sora-o]

@@LordWillow people that don't care about fast runs don't use consumables, ppl that wanna skip mobs and run through everything waste scrolls of life and stones of health.... costing them more than what they get from the chests.

[@rei9990]

you guys still play this game lol

[@Dropp383]

You guys realize it’s a free game?

[@xamenoskli]

So we can't express opinions or give actuall data to help them balance? We are trying to understand how things work, adjust to them and improve the game we play as much as possible. I dont see how this is a bad thing. Players found out that formulas were different, not developers. So we helped them, with information, to improve the game and by pointing out false coding. Your comment on the other hand is not providing any kind of help. I have seen your name again in other videos making comments with no good intentions. Willow here is not crying nor blaming the devs. He is trying to improve the game the way he can and he is being very respectfull about it.

[@xamenoskli]

Btw I remember you saying that u were traveling around the world with your bike in one of garlnaax stream quite some time ago.. one year or more. You said you were thinking about trying neverwinter again. Garl said to you "dont bother brother! Keep enjoying ur life". Maybe u should go back to cycling around the world. I say this because all I have seen from you are negative comments. If you feel that much negativity that you have to project it to others too, (especially willow here who is being very polite on how he goes about it) then maybe your are doing something wrong or you need a break. Game has problems. We need to work together to make this game better cos unfortunately dev team ia small and I guess cryptic doesnt invest much anymore (developing MTG). Being free doesnt mean we should just accept every broken thing in the game. Or cry about it like 3 year olds like other content developers do. And they do it a lot lately.. Thats why I understand some of your comments. But negativity, especially in cases like this, is completely unnecessary.

[@Dropp383]

If only I had the will to actually read your long paragraphs. Not sure what your saying? All I know is that it’s a free game. 😂

[@xamenoskli]

@@Dropp383 lol fair enough

[@LordWillow]

@D The way your statement is worded has no bearing on what is being discussed. If you has instead stated "This is a free game, ergo I don't care" I would have shrugged my shoulders and moved on. However, the way your statement is phrased it could be taken a number of ways, most of which are insulting to those that play and enjoy the game. For example "you guys are idiots for caring about a free game" or "OMG I can't believe you waste your time on something free" or "blah blah blah, I'm not listening and I don't care it's a free game", are likely candidates. If you have something constructive to add, then by all means please do.

[@diedunkleseitevonneverwint6876]

Neverwinter, was ist das ? scheiße ??

[@LordWillow]

Keine Scheiße, es macht viel Spaß für neue Spieler