New Discoveries - Why Bloodnotch & Immutable Force Sometimes Stops Working - Path of Exile 3.23 POE

[@MrBabumba]

Huge service to the community - thanks both the reporter and yourself dude. Cheers.

[@sirgog]

I'm just doing the reporting here. Wasn't involved in this research at all. POE Wiki people are great though

[@michaelwalker327]

This is great, thanks. Also the fact you point out the date is something I wish more videos had. Things change a LOT league to league.

[@sirgog]

This video really needed it as it might change next league

[@gantzplayer.n.m4410]

a friend that doesn't play POE was sitting with me while i was watching this and asked me " do you need a doctorate to play this f**** game ? " been playing for 10+ years, and i still have no clue about some of the mechanics...

[@sirgog]

Yeah it's worth mentioning that this is very much in 'powergamer min-max territory' only. I feel like there's maybe 30-50 thousand players this advice is aimed at in a game that gets over 300k concurrent sometimes (and probably has a million over an entire league)

[@youtubeSuckssNow]

​@@sirgogi remember a couple years ago someone said that they tried to get their friend into poe and they started trying explain pob and the friend said "I already have a job, I dont want another one" which is absurdly accurate. Its been 5 years and I swear I learn something new about the game every time I play.

[@loopygordo]

​@@youtubeSuckssNow eh the game is complex but that complexity isnt required for new players to enjoy themselves. Playing destiny 2 is more like having a second job...

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@youtubeSuckssNow The big difference is that anyone can get into PoE whenever they want at no cost, whereas a job requires you to impress a bunch of people just to be allowed the 'privilege' of working for them, and to continue to suck up to them ever after in order to keep it. At least that aspect of having a job isn't true of any game out there. Thankfully.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@loopygordo "destiny 2 is more like having a second job" Eve Online players: Aww how cute!... :p

[@flippicat]

I've been playing these builds for leagues and have always accepted the fact that I will randomly die every now and again despite feeling near immortal the rest of the time. Thanks for helping to explain part of the reason that happens!

[@NKB_POE]

I was so seriously watching,I didn''t expect the end,nice one :D

[@gandalfo007]

I clicked on one of the wildwood altars that had “all hits against you are critical strikes” and all my CwS gems stopped working. I was so confused, now I get what happened. Thanks for the info!

[@Inficate-bd3qu]

Here are my test results for the longer stun mechanism “A significantly long stun duration (700+ ms) will also display a swirling circle above the character or monster.” This can be found on the stun wiki and Mark had the original source commented on 7 years ago. My in-game test result shows a stun with 57% increased enemy stun duration resulting in the animation being displayed and a stun with 55% increased enemy stun duration resulting in the animation not being displayed. 57% increased duration resulting in 350ms / ((100 + 57) / 100) = 444.5ms and 55% increased duration resulting in 350ms / ((100 + 55) / 100) = 437.5ms. However, the server tick breakpoint is at 13 ticks 429ms and 14 ticks 462ms. This directly proved the longer stun animation does not respect server tick because both 444.5 and 437.5 fall within range 429 and 462 but they behave differently. However, I wasn’t able to test stun directly since I didn’t have the tools or person to work with me to realize the setup. Hence, the longer stun does not respect the server tick, but it is still unknown if the shorter stun or stun in general respect the server tick or not. I am personally inclined to believe that stun does not respect server tick in general since server tick is defined to be only applicable to cooldown. P.S. Either the stun duration formula or Mark’s comment about 700ms longer stun is wrong based on the experiment above.

[@bluedot5555]

One other decent option to fix this may be extinguish. You can get extinguish on hit as a eater implicit, and that prevents enemies from inflicting ailments.

[@thomasgrimm1664]

This makes quite a lot of sense considering the rage on stun mechanic several bow builds use with warlord's mark. If the enemy gets frozen, the stun doesn't apply and no rage is generated.

[@aldontrimble896]

Thank you for this. I thought I was insane for noticing this.

[@SirAaroniteBlack]

Thank you for this deep explanation, i recently just learned about this tech and want to apply it to my pathfinder. Thankfully its poison build so i can use the can't crit if poisoned

[@arnperez8426]

Do you know why block sometimes fails at 100% chance to block ? (Attaks)

[@PaddyXDirect]

Wow, I didn't think of the stun mastery. I made my Fulcrum chieftan poisen enemies with fire damage and took poisend enemys cannot deal critical strikes. Thats saves me like 8 Points.

[@gemore]

Also actual useful info for you re this: Immunity to crits from stunning hits (the mastery) does NOT prevent this 'bug'. You still dont get 'stunned' for the purpose of cast when stunned. Of particular note; if you are doing an Eater of Worlds map, take 'mobs deal additional cold' and take the wildwood 'you only take crits' you will never be stunned for the purposes of cast when stunned. Actually that may only be partially true as it seemed to trigger stun from SOME enemy attacks, but many no longer did. If you need me to assist with testing let me know. My char can take everything and only uses cast when stun so it might be useful

[@Yohsene]

You tested incorrectly. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f525m3yYoJmtb8U The mastery solves the issue as long as you can find a single non-cold or non-crit hit to get stunned by first. Normally that isn't an issue.

[@blvcksvn]

What's your profile name? I did a sanity check using 100% chance to be crit with legacy scourge mod + Reckless Defence, phys to cold helmet, and the mastery does appear to work. Both Bloodnotch and regen from Trial of Faith are proccing.

[@gemore]

@@blvcksvn account is gemore character is SelfStunJugg. I can't say for sure what the cause was then, but I know the key information: 1. It was an eater map 2. I took the 'all hits are crits' 3. I have the 'cant be crit if stunned' mastery 4. Some mobs, regardless of number of attacks, never triggered my Cast when Stunned 5. All hits SHOULD stun me, as my ES is 0 and my stun is based off of ES

[@blvcksvn]

@@gemore most likely answer is the remaining monsters in the map deal cold damage or you had an eater altar or map mod that granted phys as cold. In this case, because they always deal cold crits, they can't stun you, so your stun mastery would never kick in unless they didn't deal cold damage. if that's the case it's not an issue with the mastery, you set up a situation where the mastery can never activate. the crit solutions aren't failproof (unlike the damage shift solution), you still need to actively plan around them.

[@gemore]

I think I figured out what was going on. The mastery i have 'you cant take crits if youve been stunned' requires first that youve been stunned. However, if every hit you take is a cold crit that 'should' inflict frozen, you never get the stun and thus never get the immunity. But once some other mob hits you who doesnt do exclusively cold, you can get stunned, get the immunity and then be fine from then on

[@Jotoneee]

I tried it on SRS and i got interrupted on my spell casts all the time. Is that normal? It made my build allmost unplayable.

[@ayelmao42069]

Yes.. Its a stun so. Stuns interrupts your casts sooo

[@ElicatrothTV]

I have the stun master and im in the 2 frame group, but I still have a lot of moments where I do not get stunned. I have no phys taken as cold on gear or passive tree and I replaced my taste of hate with a normal sapphire flask. But I still have a lot of moments where I will go several seconds without being stunned. Interestingly, Arn's Anguish paired with Ralakesh lets me have both brutal and endurance charges, however the 10% stun threshold from brutal charges have actually proven to be impactful when I do blood aquaduct tests. I have 4.7k life and 1.3k ES with eldritch batter. You would think a stun threshold of 0 x 1.6(brutal charges) would be 0 still but apparently not. Im starting to wonder if Divine Flesh ontop of MoM is giving the 50% stun avoid chance from ES back as a bug at this point but I havent tried unspeccing that yet.

[@OtterSeaborne8901]

Thanks for the tip! Bloodnotch makes it very hard to tell what's "dangerously low" but I did notice it randomly failing a fair bit in what felt like safe enough situations. Main reason I'm not 100 yet. Now, where do I pull five to seven passive points from for a Stun Mastery? Or am I just better off eating a death sometimes? Maybe replace the Taste of Hate so it only matters if they actually have cold damage? But blue altars...

[@yizhizhu5154]

Actually does this mean the all damage can freeze tincture works with bonezone, never bothered to try

[@timd4821]

Wow.. guess i need to drop taste of hate until this bug gets fixed then

[@Mandy_5446]

Really love the details, thanks once more. I've just got my first Mageblood due to the price being nearer to HH this season and I'm sure I'm not the only one so I would really appreciate some current info on the best flasks to use and how to roll them etc. I guess there's some more items within reach this league for many people for the first time that you could help clarify. Thanks again

[@UncleJay69]

Very good idea actually I'll make a video about this :))

[@Mandy_5446]

@@UncleJay69 Watched the guide and you told me exactly what I wanted all in one place. Fab ty

[@UncleJay69]

@@Mandy_5446 very glad it helped :)

[@MrTnbopp123]

6:03 cant see anything, popups everywhere

[@sirgog]

Just checked if they covered anything important, they didn't. Mahuxotl's Machination and Tempered by War pages on the wiki if you aren't familiar with the item and the keystone.

[@theaureliasys6362]

unrelated question do you perhaps know what people are doing (especially in EU servers) that causes absolutely humongous lags that continue on? I am talking 6000ms+ latency, persisting over minutes. it ceases completely once I leave the map and immediately resumes on entering. it isn't on my end this time, that much I know for certain.

[@sirgog]

Not sure what's up there, just have heard that both European and Japanese servers have awful tech issues at the moment, Japan's likely due to a recent earthquake, but Europe I don't know.

[@theaureliasys6362]

@@sirgog (europe has been the case for a while now. usually at evening hours (8pm seems to be a catalyst) I think even for a couple leagues. I just always assumed it was my crap internet. but being able to have a perfectly fine voicecall while getting multisecond lagspikes.?)

[@theaureliasys6362]

anyhow, thank you @@sirgog

[@kelposo]

I've also noticed that when playing in Texas server, its as if when I open a new instance for a map it can be a good boy with 40ms or an "I fear for my exp" with 600+ms which lasts the whole map, but HO and next map are alright. My theory is that something fucky is going on with the instance generation part pf the servers

[@satibel]

​@@kelposomight be one of those "cursed servers" they talked about at the first exilecon, there might be one or 2 servers misbehaving for some reason and if your instance runs on that one it would cause issues. Might even be a single strand on one ethernet cable in the datacenter making the link fall back to 100mbps (that happened to me) and in that case you'd get intermittent issues when there's too many people doing too many things on that server and unless there's a specific alert for the link speed being downgraded it's a pain to diagnose. Might also be an error in the code, or at this point it could even be an error in a specific network interface with how many connections they handle. They had an issue with the actual c library corrupting memory.

[@Dudeabides422]

I knew phys as extra cold mods on altars felt too strong... thanks!

[@Darkxellmc]

Thanks! This looks a bit uncomplete however, bloodnotch pretty much doesn't work at all in the uber eater fight. I had a tanky character using bloodnotch and could facetank the entirety of uber exarch, but would fall over to almost everything in uber eater because bloodnotch just doesn't work on many hits there (tantacles sliding on the ground, and the chanelling electric circle, mainly). Uber exarch doesn't deal any cold damage, and I had the poison mastery making enemies unable to crit, so I really doubt that's the explanation here...

[@blvcksvn]

Did you have a taste of hate?

[@Yohsene]

Some of Eater's skills cannot stun! Its poedb entry actually shows that on some of the skills it uses directly.

[@Darkxellmc]

@@Yohsene Actually you're right, the rectract cannot stun, and the nuke has cold damage + always freeze, I'd assume the "always freeze" mod is somehow messing up stun? possible... but that explains it for the tentacles, at least.

[@DocKotoga]

Maybe this is the place, where someone can explain to me why my "cast on stun"-setup never triggers while Bloodnotch & Immutable Force is working perfectly?

[@johannesfunder5564]

manacost maybe

[@DocKotoga]

@@johannesfunder5564 Thanks for the hint, I will check it

[@nicholasfigueiredo3171]

We would need your pob sir. There is several reasons it does not work. You are not being stunned, you don't have enough resources to cast the skills are prob the most commons. Be aware that self-damage cannot stun. There are SEVERAL fail-checks in the client to prevent this from happening(although I don't know why just saw in a post by an official GGG member a while ago while trying to do a build myself).

[@t00thman]

Would 100% Freeze Avoid, such as the boot craft, also fix this?

[@blvcksvn]

No. Freeze has no influence on whether a hit stuns or not.

[@tronic774]

What happens if i have a Flask that makes me immune to stuns and freezes?

[@Kotaburns]

well it wont work will it bc bloodnotch ONLY works with hits that stun you....

[@tronic774]

i meant chills and freezes@@Kotaburns

[@spencers1485]

For someone playing softcore. How important is energy sheild value? I'm ok with a random death. Say I have 300 es. Is it still beneficial to run it?

[@flippicat]

If you have the stun threshold is equal to 60% of ES, a little ES is fine. Even up to ~1000 seems to be ok in high tier maps in my experience.

[@christianchilders8969]

@@flippicatthe problem with that is that ES itself has an inherent 50% stun avoidance so the first hit you take will always be rolling the dice compared to no ES.

[@johnkelley4399]

Hoping that someone in here can help me as I'm trying to use this tech but cannot seem to figure out why it is not working. Chance to avoid being stunned is 0, ailment immune, and have tried with 0 ES and 21 ES and still cant get it to work. Can provide POB if that would help.

[@Yohsene]

I assume you took the ES mastery? But sure, post PoB.

[@johnkelley4399]

Correct on the ES mastery. POB is Mg8TbL7GQcll

[@Yohsene]

Option one is Brine King pantheon, option two is that it's working, but it's hard to notice because the remaining 40% of life loss is taken normally (instead of turned into over-time loss by progenesis/petrified blood).

[@Inficate-bd3qu]

Hi, can anyone knowledgeable point me out where the source is that stun has anything to do with server tick? AFAIK server tick is exclusively applied to cooldown. Thanks!

[@MyNameIsSalo]

everything is capped by server tick rate? That's how the game works. Attack speed for example cannot exceed 33aps (multistrike/echo shrines repeats arent included in that limit). Every action in the game can only be applied on a server tick frame, if you try to do an action inbetween frames then it will capture that action and apply it on the next server tick frame.

[@Inficate-bd3qu]

@@MyNameIsSalo I had a paragraph on a different video with many examples that this is not the case. For simplicity, one counter example is HoT was tested in January 2024 that it does not follow server tick and has no internal cooldown. The lightning can strike at any frame. The test can be found on the wiki. Thus, not everything respects the server tick for sure. So again, I'm looking for a concrete source to prove server tick can be applied to anything beyond cooldown. P.S. it's a false claim that in general a game follows a server tick. A game has to follow certain clocks but not necessarily clocks on the server side.

[@badabc213]

@@Inficate-bd3qu HoT has a frequency, not a cooldown. It's more like Cast while Channelling, except that CwC also has to be triggered, and there's no way of altering the frequency. Stuns have a duration, counted in ticks. You can go test this in-game yourself, using different thresholds of stun recovery. The formula that you'd expect to work for stun duration if it was tick-based does indeed work.

[@Inficate-bd3qu]

@@badabc213 Thanks for the reply. I agree HoT is not regulated by cooldown hence not everything respects service tick. In terms of testing stun, can you clarify how to do it? One way I'm thinking is we can utilize the longer stun animation that is displayed when a stun is longer than 700ms. So at 21 ticks, i.e. 693ms, if a stun land and it lasts < 700ms, > 693ms. If the stun respect server ticks, it will display the animation. I.e. a stun is less than 700ms and still displays animation because it is rounded to the next tick which is longer than 700ms. However, such a test requires 50.0505 reduced stun recovery. There is no such thing. So can you suggest how you would test reliablely? I will try not to count frame-by-frame due to how unreliable it is.

[@Inficate-bd3qu]

@@badabc213 Actually I just figured. 99% increased stun duration will work. It generates a 696.5ms stun duration. If the longer stun animation displays, it means stun respect server tick. Let me test.

[@christopheralba4026]

How does this setup interact with eldritch battery? Does ES still prevent stuns?

[@christianchilders8969]

If you take eldritch battery you lose the base 50% stun avoidance from ES since it’s no longer protecting your life pool.

[@blvcksvn]

ES's 50% stun ignore doesn't affect Bloodnotch anyway.

[@Kotaburns]

@@blvcksvn why would it not? assuming no eldritch battery

[@blvcksvn]

@@Kotaburns Because it was already tested. Regular stuns are 50% discarded if you have Es protecting life.

[@davidmaltais2912]

I'm convinced there's something else preventing these jewels from working...... Defiance of destiny amulet maybe? Dunno but I'm definitely not recouperating 57% like jewel says. I even took the stuns use energy shield instead of life so it should proc no prob

[@ariyako]

do i need recoup or Bloodnotch & Immutable Force is just enough?

[@Yohsene]

Bloodnotch + Immutable work fine without recoup. Recoup is mainly used when Petrified Blood or Progenesis do their thing to the rest of the damage (that bloodnotch doesn't recover).

[@ariyako]

@@Yohsene ah so Bloodnotch + Immutable is work like self regen without regen nodes?.

[@Yohsene]

​@@ariyako It's not 'regeneration' (doesn't interact with zealot's oath and such), but yeah. You get stunned, lose 100 life, instantly recover 60 from bloodnotch, and minimize the interruption with immutable. Ideally your build has a plan to deal with the remaining 40, but that's not directly related.

[@ariyako]

thanks!@@Yohsene

[@NemisCassander]

From a coding perspective, this would seem to be a case of trying to short-circuit a decision tree to improve performance. Very interesting research.

[@omniscientindisplay7217]

im confused. isnt this specifically not a bug since hits that can freeze innately cannot stun? thats what the stun wiki says and always has

[@blvcksvn]

That's wrong, freezing hits CAN stun.

[@satibel]

I'd argue that crits that would freeze you not stunning is a bug. I think it should proc stun effects, though obviously not cast when stunned if you're actually frozen.

[@tetsero]

It's not 1 frame. It's one server tick. If you run at 30 fps, then it's 1 frame about. At 60 fps it's 2 frames. 120 fps is 4 frames etcetc...

[@xWulfie]

on the very next server tick* I'd assume but yeah very nice. Been using this with Chieftain MF.

[@sirgog]

Yeah server tick is more correct where I'd said frame. Oops. 33 ms later.

[@jetstrike]

So secrets of suffering doesnt help?

[@Yohsene]

It'll let you stun enemies with cold crits. It won't let you get stunned by them. Bloodnotch cares about that second one.

[@RealBentusiII]

cold immunity should enable stun on crit cold hits.

[@sirgog]

Yeah having all cold damage taken as fire/chaos (combination of Mahuxotl's and Tempered By War) will achieve this.

[@Formula_RS]

So if I'm freeze immune with Brine King pantheon or Arctic Armour I have nothing to worry about?

[@Ashebrethafe]

I think he said that it doesn’t matter whether you’re immune to the freeze - the fact that the attack _would_ have frozen prevents it from stunning. So you either need to prevent critical strikes (such as with the stun mastery that prevents them if you’ve been stunned recently) or convert 100% of the cold damage you take to non-cold damage (such as by combining Mahuxotl’s Machination and Tempered by War).

[@xXVintersorgXx]

If you're crit immune or you can't take cold damage

[@geptimbo]

I've got a Question: Is Unwaveringly Evil (Chaos Skills ignore Interruptions from Stuns) canceling the Bloodnotch interaction? We should avoid ignore stuns but what if we ignore the interruptions from Stuns?

[@flippicat]

I believe any source of ignore interruption from stub basically makes you immune to stun(while the condition is met) post introduction of bloodnotch. I do know that cast when stunned will not proc. I'm not 100% sure bloodnotch doesn't work but that is my belief

[@tracev9381]

It 100% bricks bloodnotch source: 20% of my exp

[@blvcksvn]

Yes, it will prevent Bloodnotch recovery.

[@frenchcatgoesham9665]

Answered the same question to someone else in a stream on twitch yesterday. The wiki page for Unwaveringly Evil explicitely states that it doesn't work with bloodnotch

[@geptimbo]

@@frenchcatgoesham9665 Thanks. Sometimes I'm blind. Read all articles to Bloodnotch but didn't thought of reading the Unwaveringly Evil one. Haha.

[@aintnuttinnice_7590]

yes.

[@lvhsu8239]

This mechanism is not work as perfect as it would be at all , using 60% Bloodbotch and Petrified Blood and Eyes of the Greatwolf to convert 100% cold damage from hit to another type , but I'm still losing life directly from hit.

[@Sidnv]

Are you possibly double converting incoming damage? Incoming damage only converts once, so if you have some phys taken as cold as well as 100% cold taken as other things, then phys hits will still do cold damage.

[@_Baleful]

This video is only referring to the life recovery failing, right? I’ve been experiencing issues with being stunlocked by a group of mobs despite having an immutable force with a 980% roll. I wonder if this is a different bug?

[@theaureliasys6362]

depends. are you trying to use a skill? in which case, if you get stunned (even just for one frame) DURING the usage, you will fail to use the skill. Immutable force does NOT prevent the interruption, it just makes the interruption 1 tick long. if you're trying to move, you might be stopped by the hitboxes of the monsters, in which case, use a flask that gives you phasing, so you can walk out of the pack and use a skill.

[@pewpin1039]

Are you using something like frostblink that is instant to try to get out of it or something with an animation?

[@omniscientindisplay7217]

are you inflicted with temp chains or in a temp bubble or both and dont have ignore interrupt from stuns from something like unwaveringly evil? this would prevent you from casting or attacking

[@_Baleful]

​ @omniscientindisplay7217 ​ @pewpin1039 ​ @theaureliasys6362 Thanks for the replies guys - it makes sense now. I only get phasing on kill and leap slam is my main mobility skill, so now I see that in some awkward moments my phasing drops and my leap slam is being interrupted every time I try to use it. The combination of no phasing and leap slam being interrupted (this is basically a self inflicted stun) made me think the mobs were stunlocking me.

[@xXVintersorgXx]

So the tldr is "bloodnotch + 953% stun recovery + crit immunity = blood notch always works"

[@cl8lf1wm8b]

there is no such thing as crit immunity. if monster's hit crits then you recieve that crit. you can only mitigate extra damage

[@xXVintersorgXx]

@@cl8lf1wm8b the poison mastery says they cannot crit. And the stun mastery says you can't be crit if you've been crit. Also there's cospri body etc.

[@LilxRatedxKilla105n3]

@@xXVintersorgXx again, there is no such thing as "crit ummunity". The only lines that make bloodnotch work effectively (most of the time) is "enemies cannot crit" be it from poison master or other sources, and "cannot be crit if stunned" from stun mastery. the reason i say most of the time is because these are conditional , and if enemies are not poisoned, or if you have not been stunned recently, you are able to be critically striked.

[@gemore]

immutable force? Bruh i just built my character with 5 cast when stunned setups and tank everything (sans uber bosses)

[@ariyako]

pob

[@gemore]

SelfStunJugg in poe ninja @@ariyako

[@ariyako]

@@gemore nice gonna try next leag, any tips or warning about ur builds?

[@gemore]

Hell yea!@@ariyako Its great for half playing (watching something, palying something else). It can take pretty much everything easily when full built except some heavy dots. Basically, the ubers. Everything short of pinnacle is pure afk, but keep a faster casting gem on you to chase down annoying mobs (or skip them). Necromancers are annoying. Build is S+ for ultimatum and ritual. Ultimatum in particular it might be the best build in the game for (just dont take ruin!)

[@realfranny3483]

Any plans on actually playing the freaking game?

[@forcefulstorm6187]

Sir, this is KZbin.

[@ayelmao42069]

Can u not listen to the first 10 seconds? Path of exile discussion.

[@tr0l3r]

First

[@sirgog]

second :beer:

[@ca0991]

third@@sirgog

[@xCushman]

TLDR for a simple minded exile?

[@Yohsene]

cold crits should stun, but don't, preventing on-stun effects like bloodnotch

[@dalwand]

I like that you allowed yourself liberty in your End Sentence. I find it in other streamers (Ziz,Palsteron) that it starts to annoy me ",Try to die.."Ah fk off" 😂