The Illusion of Migration as Development

[@belqisy]

I love how he sincerely put it in such clear words! We need more people like professor Immanuel Nessto to destroy some other widespread myths about development Agenda!

[@benthestreetsarfa7454]

This is such a salient video in light of what is happening in the UK right now with the Anti-Immigration riots

[@NineInchTyrone]

Anti INVASION demonstrations

[@lominuby1]

hes not saying that immigration contributes to economic or social decline though. most of what he saying is that there is demand for it in these countries. immigrants end up paying more into the system than they take so ultimately there are benefits the main problem we have is that we dont want to live next to each other..

[@NineInchTyrone]

@@benthestreetsarfa7454 INVASION is NOT immigration

[@benthestreetsarfa7454]

@@NineInchTyrone and I’m assuming you mean by ‘invasion’ the staggering and massive numbers of migrants right?

[@OnlineEnglish-wl5rp]

​@@lominuby1 That's pure lies. There is no natural demand, it's big business wanting an oversupply of labour to suppress the working class. The great majority absolutely do not pay more into the system either - only highly skilled European professionals do that. The rest are a net drain. It's well known that people prefer to live with people like them and that diversity undermines social harmony

[@enriquegarcia2612]

What a strange question all the world has migrated during millenia, the United States, canada, australia, New zealand, and most of Latin america developments are based on migration into those countries. Most european countries have developed through large amounts of population, being forced to migrate to other continents since the xvith century onwards. Perhaps only the african and asiatic continents are still based on mostly native population.

[@stnbch3025]

Conquest or migration?

[@enriquegarcia2612]

@stnbch3025 la conquista de muchos paises se ha de haber logrado en un par de centenares de años, pero la migracion continua de europa hacia el resto del mundo ha sido intermitente por mas de 6 siglos. Italia perdio mas de 30 millones de su gente entre 1850 y 1950, que migraron en su mayoria a estados unidos, australia y Argentina, que nunca fueron colinias italianas, entre otros paises, por citar un ejemplo

[@enriquegarcia2612]

The conquest of several countries must had been achieved in a couple of centuries, whereas the european migration has been intermittent for about 6 hundred years, for example, between 1850 and 1950 Italy lost about 30 million Italians who migrated mostly to the us, australia or Argentina, countries that were never Italian colonies, Finland, Norway, Belgium, germany, Austria, Greece, Portugal, Spain, britain, france and many others from the eastern block behaved similarly.

[@JL-tm3rc]

In the past people are migrating to other territoreies to develop those territories. An equivalent today would be if russia opens up eastern siberia to migrants.

[@anirbanc88]

this is such a great expression of what i have always felt as the tension between trying to do good and develop and ending up in the hands of the west and with thousands of arguments why it can't be done in my poor country, thank you!

[@JaZaarMercury]

The American government has squandered over a century during which it could have developed or assisted the growth of productive democracies in South America and Africa, instead it has predictably removed every legitimately elected nationalist head of state and promoted unending chaos in poorer countries.

[@shuma3401]

America has never truly been governed by Americans. The elites are more focused on ensuring the dominance of their own tribe globally, using America merely as a tool to achieve their goals, rather than caring about the country's success.

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

Thank you Immanuel Ness.

[@daniamaya]

Should we go one step back and first ask ourselves, why is "economic development" more important than basic humanity?

[@afgor1088]

what basic humanity is there in 16 hour working days with short lives and poor public services? economic development is necessary for basic humanity.

[@Peace_Guard]

Sorry, but I cannot fully agree. So you're telling me that if US would stop their population level at ~100k or any other number (and it was increasing largely due to migration) it would have the same level of overall economic and geopolitical power? Obviously not. Migration is another subtype of colonialism that greatly benefits the wealthier nations orchestrating crises like wars, economic downturns, corruption, coups, tyranny, debt traps etc. on subjugates nations. But the worst of all is identity theft - forcing people to migrate due to all of the above to better-off nations that are actually directly responsible for their own nations' plight and integrating them into their society to identify as one of them, often with negative feelings towards their persecuted country of origin.

[@flow963]

Great analysis. Thanks for sharing it.

[@melissasmind2846]

Listening on my walk. ❤

[@melissasmind2846]

I was a social worker. I left the field but in transition. Career wise.

[@alsterg]

Ask UAE, Switzerland and Singapore

[@11kindpunk11]

Great talk

[@petermabe897]

Thanks Prof🙏 Is it possible for you to unpack migration issues as they present themselves in South Africa and how that situation/reality may pan out in the future - socially, economically and politically...as a visiting Professor at UJ, a video on this highly contested topic will provide useful insights of what the implications could be. Also, address the role of Foundations in the space. Thanks, I look forward to your response and video. 🙏

[@jamesmaximilian6681]

I would recommend listening to the arguments of Jayant Bhandari as a better explanation for why the third would hasn't developed in spite of decades of aid and assistance from the West et al.

[@user-wp8yx]

I'm not following the logic here... granted I'm at work and missed a few bits, but I think this guy just argued. 1 migration does not provide benefit to the host nation. 2 migration is exploitative of the migrant. 3 migration is good for rich migrants. Proposal: we need more open borders. ???? I can't have this right. Somebody set me straight.

[@foxbat51]

I'm lost too mate.

[@therationalist234]

I think the logic is that bilateral migration (i.e. El Salvador-US only) leads to exploitation but with more open borders, there's less exploitation from smugglers, customs, employers since migrants can go somewhere else with less fear. That aside, I don't think that's the key issue. Those 'elite migrants' that come to the global north for education should care more about improving their home country than just going back home and maintaining their families wealth and social status.

[@LuigiSimoncini]

Point 1 Is wrong. He's saying migration remittances do not bring development to the origin countries. One of the reasons is that migrants are exploited in several ways and they are documented for too short a time to send enough money back or progress in any way. But yes, it was a bit confusing.

[@luuk8684]

He said it is highly valuable for the destination country, and immigration is not good as a method of development of the global south, that is what his point was.

[@user-wp8yx]

Thanks everyone for the clear explanations. The friendly exchange of ideas is also appreciated.

[@0zoneTherapyCures]

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[@shutinalley]

There are many different types of migration. Migration where people are desperately fleeing a warzone is very different than people migrating for opportunity. The former is usually because of bad foreign policy. Want examples?

[@irenee800]

Excellent

[@mns8732]

Freedom? Please, people m9ve for resourses.

[@thomasbentele2468]

A danish studie says, that migrants of the MENAPT Belt from Morocco to Pakistan over their lifetime bring no net-benefit to Denmark, but are a net-burden for the danes. Non MENAPT non EU migrants are neutral over their lifetime. EU migrants bring a good net benefit, Danes bring the largest net benefit, and make Denmark able to feed the MENAPT migrants. A win-win situation.

[@polyannamoonbeam]

Do you know the title of the study?

[@thomasbentele2468]

@@polyannamoonbeam „MENAPT: Migration, Education, and the Net Contribution of Immigrants to the Danish Welfare State“.

[@woodspriteful]

Migration is natural, existing throughout the natural world. It is driven by the need for protection / refuge and resources. The reason why the US has failed to deal with migration from Latin America is because of our adversarial two-party system and the fact that corporations and underground illegal employers enjoy exploiting migrants for profit and control. Migration may not be beneficial to the host nation or nation of origin, but the presence and relevance of the national perspective came up after all that has been stated. I don't care about the nations perspective. I respect natural occurances. I resent economic exploitation. I support human rights and the right to refuge, but the US has failed to recognize migration as a result of the basic human need for refuge. We have not acknowleged the crisis for what it is. The greatest threat to the US is our two party adversarial system and the corporations who bought them, the wealth gap is too great. Migration is not the #1 cause of delayed development - greed is. MY RESPONSES TO THIS THREAD ARE BEING DELETED, PERHAPS BECAUSE I AM DISCUSSING THE RIGHTS OF NATURE, INEVITABLE WHOLE SYSTEMS COLLAPSE, CORRUPTION AND THE US AS A NON-SELF GOVERNANCE SYSTEM.

[@dweller6065]

Your point of view - discounting the value of the nation state and respecting "natural occurances" is interesting and considered. If you don't mind I would like to explore your line of reasoning a little further. From the POV of natural processes what distinguishes the human race is it's ability to co-operate in ways that improve survival. This started with formation of river settlements in China, Indus, Nile and Sumur to better handle flood events and provide collective defence to raiders. Cutting a long story short, I view the nation as simply the evolution of a human society through which humans co-operate. The 2 key mechanisms are division of labor (allowing specialization) and exchange. Now there is a wide variety of societies, some more successful than others, and (I would argue) that difference reflects the depth and breadth of human interaction. A key part of this are social and political compacts. And features that are present in most higher income societies are progressive taxation systems, income transfer payments to the poor and labor protections that work to support incomes of the lower paid. The success of such systems is hard won and the result of decades of internal conflict that resulted in compromises between labor and capital. It is into this context that recent large intakes of low and semi skilled migration has appeared. And I consider it quite reasonable that host societies - nations- and the pool of low income people in them, would want to protect their incomes - that is a natural occurance as well. So - in sum - you offer a worthy principle without historical context and without considering methods of human co-operation as natural occurances.

[@woodspriteful]

@@dweller6065 a well thought out response. I don't see anything to disagree with although it seems incomplete and lacks a vision for how the evolution is to proceed. It is also missing the perspective of mother. Mothers aren't cooperating. Mothering comes from something else. Nature regenerates, but regeneration does not naturally occur in our economy. I did not hear any mention of greed or the fostering of less adversarial and exploitative systems in the response. Some countries have sustainability constitutions to contrast with the US constitution. I think that if our economic and legal systems cannot accept the constraints of natural law, then they will fail because natural law is not constructed from the human mind and all that we construct exists within it whether or not we accept that.

[@dweller6065]

​@woodspriteful Brilliant response. As you note 2 of the forces that drive human cooperation are greed and coercion. These are short posts and I did not want to steer the discussion away from consideration of natural processes toward a normative discussion as to rights and obvious wrongs of such arrangements. You noted my response - paraphrasing - lack a sense of the direction in evolution. 2 things -as you know, evolution is a loaded term and I did not want to repeat the mistakes of social Darwinists. Second, as a matter of casual observation, it appears that social and economic systems based on conquest and extraction ie Russia being a present day example - perform poorly compared to socio-eco systems based on free exchange. Taking a (albeit narrow) perspective of last 200 years, there are more self governing societies (near 200 now compared with fewer than 80 in the mid 1800s), and more of those societies are choosing democratic systems and market based economic relations. It is a multi decade trend and may reverse. Your environmental concerns I share, but won't comment on just yet.

[@woodspriteful]

@@dweller6065 part of why I have devalued the nation state, which had a place and time, is because of my personal experience of corruption within the courts, which I find to be preying on the people. Post COVID, I think the more widespread realization that systems collapse is inevitable gained hold. There's a divide between people under age 45 and people with families vs the older crew which grew up with civic classes and enjoyed greater economic opportunity to participate in a middle class. The young have enjoyed access to greater knowledge, but this has not impacted economic outcomes. Many factors, even beyond these, are why I see less value in government. I see that the constitutional rights already set are not being respected by immune cops and judges, let alone new additions or reconstructions regarding the rights of nature, not merely the rights of people to have access to nature. So, this last comment is the heart of the matter for me. I wanted to express more clearly that it is not just a mental stance or logic. There is original perception and heartfelt desire for a less exploitative society, which does not involve market capitalism, corporate driven two party elections to replace true governance, and corrupt officials acting beyond the values within communities defined by their unique cultures and bioregions. Again, if we are to construct laws, from where our consciousness is today, we just give rights to nature and ensure that our laws fit within natural law, because all of life exists atop that foundation, even as our imaginations and ego / will tells us otherwise.

[@woodspriteful]

@@dweller6065 My response to you has disappeared, and I do not want to repeat it all again. It has to do with corruption in government and how elevated consciousness and education is not economically rewarded, the generational differences in economic experience, and the necessity for human law to accept natural law, natural rights, divine rights in order to be sustainable. I would not refer to the US as a self governing society. It is corporate driven and preying on the people, refusing to respect even the established constitution as it is. Power needs to come in closer, and it will inevitably occur that way after the inevitable whole systems collapse because the uber-wealthy will never willingly cease. Our society is driven by sociopaths. I do not understand how and why KZbin or the people on it often silence certain commentators.

[@msrhuby]

My friend John was right, the South is going to rise again!

[@willygallardo-ci3rt]

Good

[@acommon1]

Truly believe more US Citizens would be open to migration as long as: 1) No automatic citizenship 2) No automatic citizenships born to "temporary" or "illegal" migrants child briths 3) Law Abiding (enter legally) 4) Acculturation attempted to some point 5) ACommon1 Language 6) ACommon Values 7) Superb work ethic

[@sizla8837]

😢😢We fighting for the same things in South Africa and yet we are being accused of being Xenophobic

[@wrog13]

The more restrictive US is, the more irregular migration would face.

[@NineInchTyrone]

NO BORDER NO COUNTRY

[@petermabe897]

​@@sizla8837it's strange that that's the case...how the West and the woke can speak from both sides of their mouths...these people are hypocrites who thrive on suppressing experience with argument...the man with experience should NEVER be ignored in favor of the one with argument 🤞🤔

[@yassirkhay]

Al Mahdi Al Manjra famous Moroccan scholar, was always against accepting any help from any country.

[@JS-jh4cy]

Same bias, yes some resources were shipped but he neglectes the facts roads, railroads, bridges, shipping ports were created and built in each country and solid brick builds were made in each country so all development benefited the developmental country

[@kikolatulipe]

Does he consider Elon Musk a result of migration !?

[@theadchefer]

did he migrate !?

[@ceasar8679]

It's the illegal migration he is concerned about

[@curtisnixon5313]

@@theadchefer E M was born in South Africa

[@OnlineEnglish-wl5rp]

This man knowingly leaves out the impact on working class workers in the developed world, particularly in neoliberal countries like Britain and America, not to mention the enormous social problems that have developed No, no one should be able to go wherever they want. It's disastrous for social cohesion and ultimately it's what the global financial class wants. If this is the calibre of man representing the global working class, it's no wonder inequality is as bad as it is

[@lekudos]

American: made up of migrants Becomes worlds most powerful nation. Professor: migration does not create development. UNITED KINGDOM: made up of migrants somewhere else in europe Becomes top five most powerful nation. Professor: migration does not create development. Australia: made up of migrants Becomes one worlds most powerful nations Professor: migration does not create development. Middle East : made up of migrant workers Becomes worlds most prosperous and rich group of nations Professor: migration does not create development. Israel: made up of migrants from Europe, America and other places originally from the Middle East Becomes one of worlds most powerful nations Professor: migration does not create development. I’m confused. 😮

[@afgor1088]

you've completely misunderstood what he's said and ironically proved his point at the same time.

[@lekudos]

@@afgor1088 I’m sure you’re about to enlighten me rather than just making a smug remark though…

[@afgor1088]

@@lekudos why would i waste my time? your tone makes it clear you're uninterested in being educated. there's nothing smug about what i said, you just perceive being corrected as smugness. in future have some manners. goodbye.

[@marcelobaute2689]

@@lekudosProfessor is not talking about development in those hosting nations but of those of the global south. How working programs etc don’t create a significant impact on countries like Honduras. El Salvador etc. You got the whole idea backwards.

[@lekudos]

@@marcelobaute2689 quote: “for the most part, I don’t think any International agency can say that there has been any country that has developed as a consequence of migration…” So there’s that… On the issue you’re challenging me on: There’s lots of evidence to support the view that migration can be a source of economic development both for receiving and sending nations. Traditionally, I think this has been seen as remittances, labour market participation, knowledge transfer, and trade. Probably lots of other social impacts too. I’m not confident that professor Ness assertions are gaining many followers. In fact reviews of the book have been pretty negative. There just isn’t enough evidence for him alone to counter 50 years of research.

[@ajones8008]

People migrate to where they are treated the best.

[@w1-em4nq]

better, best is not always an option. I do truly believe the US is ine of the greatest places. I am bias and know we suck in some spots, but overall, we're ranked high.

[@jackd3554]

Far from the truth, people migrate where they make the most money

[@Betweoxwitegan]

​@@w1-em4nqI'd rank The USA within the 10th percentile globally, so around 20th/200 countries

[@rohj4825]

We need protection of all humans life from moment of conception.

[@djl8710]

Modern slavery

[@whymustisignin4this]

This is moronic. Migration was and is essential for human development, never mind how important it is for modern economies to have free movement of labour and capital. And modern economics is just a blip in human history. Migration has been key to the whole development of modern humans.

[@stevebobhorace]

Did you watch the whole thing? He wants migration to be made easier. He just says it is for the benefit of the migrants specifically. His point about migration only being "a factor" in development, rather than sufficient for it, is something more people should realise. Otherwise PER CAPITA economic growth should have been raised by mass migration. Where I disagree with him is when he says the immigrants in service jobs mean life is better in the host countries. I don't think it's better for native-born people at the bottom end of the labour market. "Modern economies" as you put it, shouldn't mean middle class people exploiting working class people and foreigners whole leaving economic growth unchanged!

[@whymustisignin4this]

@@stevebobhorace I didn't. I was so incensed by the title and his first sentence. My point was that migration has been essential for species, never mind the rather recent societal structures of "modern economies". Migration is essential in our current economies because it allows booming business to hire the labour they require. The issue of how money is concentrated at the top of our "modern economies" is not related to migration. Ending migration would not make our world more equal. And if you think it would because businesses would be forced to pay a smaller pool of workers more 1. do not forget that we live in a world where advancing technologies and robotics may be able to do a lot of work for humans and 2. a business that has a smaller pool of workers to choose from would be limited in the amount of work they could do, so they wouldn't be so profitable, so how would they be able to offer higher wages to employees? I agree that we need to restructure our societies. I want it so that people on every level are guaranteed the essentials in life; housing, healthcare, education, all that stuff. I don't for one second believe that the reason are societies are not structured this way has anything to do with migration. Migration is not the problem. I believe in freedom and the right to move about this world freely is one that we should all have. That isn't at all the way our world is structured. But I refused to be conned. I want to live in a free world. And I know what freedom means.

[@theadchefer]

@@whymustisignin4thisyou should watch it fully

[@ceasar8679]

​@@whymustisignin4this no.. Only controlled migration is good for development.

[@whymustisignin4this]

@@ceasar8679 Who is it controlled to benefit really? Don't be so easily conned.