Cinema 4D Tutorial - AgX vs ACES (Octane)

[@eddierobbertse8957]

Thanks for admitting that color management is like rocket science to you. I feel a bit better now!

[@NewPlastic]

Man, every time I read about CM I feel like an idiot haha Which is why my next video is dedicated solely to basic color-management stuff, hopefully clearing some of the logic and reason behind some of it.

[@eddierobbertse8957]

@@NewPlastic Definitely a vid I'm looking forward to! Thank you for these tutorials that are free of "rocket science" 👍

[@FractalParadox]

My only problem with AGX right now is compatibility with resolve. I would love to render in a high dynamic range format like EXR and then just apply the AGX "look" inside resolve, but the only way I could find to do it right now needs davinci Studio version so a little over my budget lol

[@NewPlastic]

Really only davinci studio has that?? I'm sure that'll change soon, AGX is becoming a standard slowly but surely

[@姚亮-g8f]

Hi, I unified the contrast and ran some tests. The "aces" highlights were found to spill pixels, especially on extreme lighting and highly reflective surfaces, whereas "agx" did not. As a result, although the overall contrast appears to be higher on the surface, the "aces" may lose some information in the detail due to pixel overflow. I've found that I prefer "agx", which looks slightly lower contrast than "aces", but is almost negligible and looks more natural overall, with better detail retention.

[@NewPlastic]

Absolutely agree, that's awesome that you tested it for yourself, I think that's the most important thing!

[@csmemarketing]

In Blender, I switched from Filmic to AGX the first time I heard about it from Riley Brown's channel. It actually does a great job in transforming my renders to a more real-world look, since I make signs during the day, and use Blender to make 3d Renders on some of the signs for client approvals. When we send the renders, the clients think we already built the signs and other physical products. I use Agx with Punchy, then do some color balance changes until it looks similar to real life colours.

[@NewPlastic]

Yeah lately my work has kinda settled on the ACES transforms, but I definitely find room for AgX. They really come in different waves and I love that.

[@igobyzak]

Thanks for sharing! I hadn't heard about AgX; I'll have to look into it. As far as the hue skew from ACES, the latest release (ACES 1.3) includes a gamut compression option that corrects for this. Davinci Resolve has an elegant implementation where you can control with sliders how each color is rolling off to white to fine tune the look. I know that the contrast level of ACES output transforms has been up for debate for some time and I think they're working on a similar workflow where you can select different "looks" for each output to vary the contrast. Hopefully we'll see these changes sooner rather than later. Thanks again for all the great content!

[@NewPlastic]

Zak! An honor to have you here, love your videos. Have been watching some of your color workflow videos in research for my upcoming color-management videos :) I didn't even know ACES rolled out 1.3, is it official? I was actually looking for new version a week ago but didn't find any. That makes total sense tho. I have a strong feeling that ACES is going to go through some major changes/improvements in the following updates. Too many controversies when to comes to that color-space. Hah. My pleasure buddy, happy I can help.

[@igobyzak]

@@NewPlastic The pleasure is all mine! Big fan of your channel! Yeah, ACES 1.3 is official and has some much needed improvements. I took a look at an AgX website and they make a point to compare their tonemapping to ACES versions lower than 1.2. I think Davinci Resolve uses it's own color rules (not OCIO) so they've made a nice little option in their ACES transform node to either leave the gamut compression off, turn it on automatic mode, or on with parametric sliders. It's super nice and I hope soon After Effects OCIO will be pushed into the production version with similar features.

[@NewPlastic]

@@igobyzak Man I wish AE was as powerful in color-managing as DR is. One time I worked on DR for a video and I just couldn't believe there could be such a difference. Yeah I think all the criticism of ACES is for 1.2 downwards. Seems like the ACES developers are listening. I do love the diversity in looks in all these different transforms tho. And tbh the overall ACES workflow is not even that crucial for most 3d artists, as for film people. But eh what do I know heh

[@motherwit.2652]

I like the look of Aces, but when working with strict brand colors for clients, AgX is king right now. Thanks for the video!

[@NewPlastic]

I can't argue with that!

[@csmemarketing]

That's what I'm saying. When doing product design, and brand colours are in Pantone or RAL, AGX makes outputs colours closer to physical with less colour corrections than Filmic or sRGB.

[@Meteotrance]

Probably better to use AGX for web design or printing work, but for pure video in rec 709 or even rec 2020 PQ HDR and also DCP export for movie theatre ACES win but you right it's sometime not perfectly accurate it's a compromise i have no Bad issue when i texturing on substance Painter and designer with aces CG encoded open EXR file the conversions between rgb or even dci P3 to video color Space is totaly painless and very accurate, when shooting with real camera it can have some color compression issue, even with a color chart .

[@charisbci7445]

Both are looking great depents the scene, thanks for news about AgX. Waiting for the next tutorial😉

[@NewPlastic]

Exactly, it's good to have all these in your toolbox.

[@Nikola_Botev]

Here I see a misconception, your light might be clipping in ACES SRGB, but this is normal. Range preserving workflow will export EXR-s to linear float format so you can tonemap later with no detail loss in AE for example. This is just a flatter profile that is closer to ACES R709. The best thing about ACES is that you can use it for any color space and be sure to be transformed correctly. I understand that you like the AgX look, but is just a fancy curve adjustment, ACES is a color management system where if you work for a big studio and you are asked to make a remaster in other color space it's pretty straight forward process.

[@NewPlastic]

A good render-transform is nothing to sneeze at. Converting the HDR info to SDR can be done in a million ways and some will have better conversions that others and will have their own "look". Choosing the right transform is essential, technically and aesthetically. So while you're kinda right that AgX is not a color-profile, I wouldn't undermine it. ACES's complete color-system is important but really more for film artists who had to deal with a million different cameras and color-profiles. 3D artists don't really have that problem so ACES is really just used for its render-transform look.

[@thornnorton5953]

Good info for those who dont know.

[@BrentonWoods774]

I'm 2 months into switching to AgX and I love it!

[@NewPlastic]

That's awesome. You're a pioneer my guy

[@userinfo3119]

Aces seems to get me closer to the final result I would want for most situations. Perhaps AgX would be better if I wanted more control over the final art direction.

[@NewPlastic]

Yezzir! That's a common insight I hear

[@Meteotrance]

Yeah ACES are limited for a good cross compatibility with wide color gamut when i mix CGI with real camera footage i have no Bad suprise in the color transfert as long as i export in rec 709 ,rec 2020 PQ HDR and also P3 DCI even the rgb conversion in aces CG keep the color transfert without pain, the only issue is it's not made for printing and also have a trouble with Neon and other highlight but it's manageable with the good lut , AGX must be scene refered and not screen refered to be debunk and usefull ...

[@ignaciosagrario]

I had this same conversation with Elksa in OTOY forums. But honestly, having the "aces tone mapping" checkbox makes the workflow so damn easy now, that I don't think I'm going into AgX that much, except I have some specific client requirements... Either way, this color tuts are awesome, keep 'em going!!

[@NewPlastic]

Now I just have the AgX config file saved inside Octane's settings, so it's one click away from AgX, just like ACES. But yeah I think you just find your own way in it, as long as you're aware of other options

[@Leukick]

New Octane user here [for Blender], and I noticed the renders using AgX for Octane are much less noisy than ACES!! Is this true for you as well? 500 samples used.

[@NewPlastic]

I acutally never noticed that, I don't think it should affect it because the transform happens after the render not before, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe it's the higher contrast in ACES that makes the noise more visible

[@Leukick]

@@NewPlastic Ahh makes sense, the higher contrast

[@МиколаТовкмак]

the second part, where we can observe extreme lighting on the surface, really shows the best results.Дякую!

[@NewPlastic]

Yup that's where you can really tell the difference!

[@kimmysander2447]

Isn't ACES supposed to be the be all end all though? The point of ACES was also so that everything made, all cameras, could be converted to ACES, colour managed and posted in ACES, before exporting out to SRGB Rec709 etc - does AgX have a similar workflow? Can I convert things to AgX_CG (linier) in Davinci resolve, and colourgrade there, before outputting in SRGB or how do I go about this?

[@NewPlastic]

So I think one of the points of this video is to show you ACES is definitely not the end all be all of things! The thing with ACES being a full color-space designed for consistent workflows across different codecs, cameras and platforms is true, but that's really only important for high end cinema/tv work. I think most CG work we do is not meant for that, so we're not really utilizing the full span of the ACES workflow anyway, we honestly just use it for its transform look. AgX is not a colorspace, it's just a render transform. So it's just a way to convert the linear HDR info of your scene into regular sRGB SDR. So you can definitely just export your scene as Linear sRGB, and in Davinci just use the AgX transform to output is sRGB after grading.

[@metachaos6105]

yaaaaas, aces is a beaut with all that contrast and the wobbly hue, but i also see a ton of uses for agx, both are great and definitely worth not going back to any of that 20+ year old color math, let's see what you got for us in AE babyyyyy

[@NewPlastic]

And yet here we are, still bound by a 20 year old color-space.

[@pixelasm]

5:34 exactly the right question and a fitting answer. In the the outcome you want to achieve is what matters and less so how you get there (except for time needed and capabilities of the technology used) To me #colormanagement is a chore, all I need is consistent color reproduction throughout the whole workflow.

[@addol95]

Could the hue shift be explained by the fact that you're using rgb spectrum as your emission source instead of the correct gaussian spectrum method?

[@NewPlastic]

Good thinking, but I doubt it. This has to do with the gamut-mapping and tone-mapping of the color-space. Every render-transform has their own way of compressing all these color data, and every transform has their own "path" from full color intensity to white. That "path" on the color-gamut dictates how the transition happens. If you want to see the actual color-tables of the transforms you should check out Chris Brejon's website in the description, he shows it very clearly there. Great question!

[@ThePuka]

Be good to grade the Aces blacks up a bit so the contrast matches to see what else is different. I like the hue shift tho.

[@NewPlastic]

Yup, I have a video coming showing how to work with the renders in AE, keeping everything linear. I touch on some of that there.

[@AsirisC]

Switched to AxG a while ago. Likes it much better.

[@NewPlastic]

You're way ahead buddy

[@scottsimmons6814]

Yes. Please show the steps from C4D to AE with ACES and AgX.

[@NewPlastic]

Just uploaded the Digital Imaging walkthru, next one is the ACES and AgX in AE

[@random_capybara]

Thanks a lot for this video! All youtube is talking about aces, but almost no one about agx.

[@NewPlastic]

Exactly, I love ACES but there's more out there.

[@gorolluk]

I think for the typical product shots, quick viz etc the ACES is simply less of a hassle. And hue shift gives me more realistic feel.

[@NewPlastic]

I love the hue-shift, but I've already encountered certain renders that have too much contrast in ACES. I can't tell you why, but for those renders going with AgX is a simple and better workflow. And in terms of hassle, it is easier to go with ACES now with Octane, but adding the AgX config file is a 3 click step, really easy! And once ACES rolls out new versions, you're going to want to add the new config file again, since C4D's native ACES file is 1.2.

[@blckops712]

You must not work with pantones on product... aces makes color accuracy a nightmare in that regard. I would rather just work with a filmic setup or even just crank highlight compression up and light properly. As someone that works with alot of Dark products.... aces just ruins them.

[@heavenlypictures4200]

Hello, I don't see the aces tone mapping check box in that settings/camera imager page. Am I missing something? Maybe an older version I have but when I check my version it says that I'm on the newest version in R25

[@NewPlastic]

Go to the Otoy website and download the latest version of Octane, you're probably using the old version (sometimes Octane won't tell you you need to update for some reason)

[@MarcusRizzo]

I'm using Agx for some weeks and notice a extreme hue shift on the material colors itself.. like, red material, looks orange on render, a deep blue looks light purple.. what i am i doing wrong?

[@NewPlastic]

If youre rendering in Linear sRGB, you have to convert it to regular sRGB using OCIO. I have an upcoming tutorail about that

[@MarcusRizzo]

@@NewPlastic after playing with it a bit, i noticed that it was overexposed, I lowered the exposure and raised the light intensity to compensate. But I had a problem dealing with other projects, so I tried to merge agx inside the ocio 1.2 file, but didn't got successful in that.. There some conflict happening and octane doesn't start, saying that there's no color space selected..

[@Soandnb]

I don't think ACES hueshifting extremely bright, highly saturated colors is as unrealistic as you'd think. I have some Hue color bulbs that I have screwed into shaded lamps with exposed tops. I have a scene where one of the bulbs is a pure, highly saturated red. Occasionally I'll have to do some work which exposes me to the actual bulb and the incredible brightness of the diffusr coming off of the globe actually looks somewhat orange, before my eyes adapt and it turns more red. Even the incredible dynamic range of the human eye has its limits, and the cone cells can become saturated with too much exposure to light. Due to the overlap in sensitivity, other cone cells can continue to respond to that light, and will naturally "hue-shift" monochrome light of incredible brightness.

[@austinpinilla7409]

This is dope, looking forward to the AE color grading part.

[@NewPlastic]

My next video is a shallow/deep dive into color-management actually, after that the AE one. I was actually working on the AE video when I realized it might benefit from an intro that explains color-management terms. That intro grew and grew into its own video lol

[@kimasdf58]

Thanks for the tips

[@NewPlastic]

I actually tend to use ACES more, only because it's just a one click solution in Octane. Another reason is because if I create a pack for sale or let my patrons access the project files, I know the files will look good because ACES is available to everyone by default. If I create files in AGX they would need to know how to install it. But sometimes I'll use AGX, depends on the project.

[@riggedpie]

AgX doesn't work in Redshift? I thought it used OCIO config?

[@NewPlastic]

Im 100% sure it works. Check out i_go_by_zak on youtube he has some good videos on that

[@jamalqutub_instrument]

Great look into AgX. More color options is great. I look forward to your AE process vid using ACES and AgX.

[@NewPlastic]

I look forward to it too! It's already recorded, just need to edit it.

[@jamalqutub_instrument]

@@NewPlastic Yesssss!

[@yaooido6308]

@@NewPlastic I look forward to your AE process vid using ACES and AgX.

[@Kirill28465]

Bro, we really need your lesson on transferring agx exr to AE. Please let him out as soon as possible

[@NewPlastic]

@@Kirill28465 Already uploaded for Patrons, will be available for everybody else next week!

[@lee-eliot]

Hey everyone. I’m trying to activate the “Agx color space” in Octane but despite having loaded the “config.ocio” file in the “Color mgmt tab” nothing shows up in the roll down menu of “OCIO view” and therefore choosing the “ Appearance Punchy” is impossible. Any idea how I could resolve this ? Thankss

[@FerrStudio]

I just install ACES yesterday and know ... Let's bloom !

[@NewPlastic]

Haha let's glare!

[@FerrStudio]

@@NewPlastic I’m making your red boots tuto now ! Thanks for your work. And the package you sell save me a lot of time.😍

[@dongchen-jp7ki]

I would like to ask my friend why the ocio appearance in my oc settings always returns to none. I hope this problem can be solved. Thank you.

[@mgalbu]

I much prefer AgX to ACES but I'm having trouble rendering animations as Octane crashes randomly when using OCIO. Do you know if there's a way of fixing this? Thanks! Love your videos.

[@NewPlastic]

Hmm, Octane can be a bitch sometimes. I would try updating your GPU drivers to the latest studio drivers, maybe reinstalling Octane. These things are always kind of a mystery. It doesn't crash if you're not using OCIO?

[@mgalbu]

@@NewPlastic If I use sRGB or ACES it renders fine. It's only when I select OCIO that renders 10 frames or so and crashes. I'll try reinstalling as you suggested. I'm using OS X. Thanks!

[@Leukick]

@@mgalbu This may be also helpful for everyone seeing your comment, but does it work for you know without that problem?

[@DatDudeXavier]

I'd be interested in a tutorial on how best to export your renders, mine never look the same as in Octane.

[@NewPlastic]

I have a tutorial coming up on how to correctly render out in both ACES and AgX to AE.

[@pietr001]

@@NewPlastic Could I ask for a compositing video? Like simple things that can be applied to about every project and maybe two or three specific situations ( like scenes with a lot of refraction, outdoor scenes, etc..). Thanks in advance!

[@rgbjoy]

Agx will definitely be a new option but wouldn’t “kill” aces for me. I like the dramatic view. Agx might be better to use with strict color management.

[@NewPlastic]

Yup, lately I tend to bounce around between both depending on the look Im going for.

[@skilldomideaddead5909]

Hey bro, congratulations on the channel, a question, is aces color management compatible with aov? greetings from Spain

[@NewPlastic]

If you bake the ACES look into the render file, I think the AOVs will bake it as well. But I'm not sure if all of them do. If you render in the ACES color profile, then you just have to make sure you convert it to sRGB in your post compositing software

[@mohsinsadiq7725]

How do you get good red lighting like that in octane?

[@NewPlastic]

This is just a material with an emission using red color

[@Gromic2k]

Okay that hue shift was the last nail in the coffin vor ACES. Bye

[@NewPlastic]

Hahha I love it tho!

[@seredinsash]

Just want to thank you for your work!

[@Thebestmusicfordeepsleep]

is it possible to use this LUT in redshift ?

[@NewPlastic]

Yes all you have to do is input the same AgX OCIO in Redshift and then make sure Redshift is using it to transform the render. And technically it's not a LUT, it's a render transform!

[@chrispriddy6290]

I feel like ACES sRGB crushes the blacks too much and prefer more of a REC709 look. As I render a lot of cars, highlight control is a huge factor with all the metals, car paints, etc...but the darks need to look reasonable as well with the tires, rims, trim plastics, etc...this is why I don't use the one-click solution in Octane. How do you find yourself dealing with this? Or is it possible to use the one-click and do some sort of REC709 TF in AE now? And wtf can we still not comp in Ps with this level of color management without 20937845 workarounds? I don't like working in AE with tricky ADs that want minute reflections brushed in or out.

[@NewPlastic]

Uhh I know fo sho that if you use the technique before the latest AE update, you can just set your space to Rec709 and then set the TF compensation for Rec709 too (forgot how you call that effect, something Converter). I'm pretty sure that'll just use the Rec709 TF curve. I bet that in the new AE with the built in OCIO you can just set the curve to be Rec709 instead of sRGB. One of my GPUs just commited suicide so my PC is turned off for the first time in who knows how long, so I can't check, but I'm pretty sure that's how it is. And PS just has ACES built in no?

[@chrispriddy6290]

@@NewPlastic Nah, EXR and ACES is a bit of a plugin/hack nightmare still, AFAIK. You're right, ACEScg is all I need to output and I can choose the rec709 in AE.

[@fffmpeg]

someone needs to learn about IDTs, ODTs, CSTs and view transforms...

[@NewPlastic]

Yessir, my next video is going over transforms and generally what's happening to color data from inception to final export.

[@kimmysander2447]

@@NewPlastic Perfect that was exactly my thought, I'd like to see a more indopth start to finish workflow with this.

[@BongbokCG]

Thanks🎉🔥

[@NewPlastic]

My pleasure

[@jeromerenard1574]

thanks for the knowlegde man

[@NewPlastic]

My pleasure boss

[@modernodj]

Cool!

[@NewPlastic]

Dope!

[@scribblezgfx]

I like your glass

[@NewPlastic]

I like your wood

[@BubbleVolcano]

AgX like a lut

[@NewPlastic]

It's not a LUT, it's a render transform. It's hard to explain the difference without going into a rabbit hole, but LUT is an old-school way that uses pre-existing tables of conversions, literally a set of numbers used to convert and conform the color information in your scene. A render transform is a more sophisticated and dynamic way to do it that's calculating the conversion based on the information in your scene, rather than on pre-existing tables.

[@punmije]

The hype about ACES is soon to die. ACES doesn't manage color well, and it doesn't look right either. It's not how the human eye perceives color. If you want a better color space, go for AGX. However, I still prefer a linear workflow with Reinhard applied because that's more aligned with human perception. I see more and more people coming back to linear. Even Blender is trying with Khronos (which is Agx on steroids), and the look is most similar to Reinhard tonemapping. ACES literally processes everything with a strong color shift, making everything contrasty and oversaturated.

[@bilaladvertizer]

Redshift not work share file c4d redshift

[@NewPlastic]

AgX should work on Redshift, no?

[@bilaladvertizer]

@@NewPlastic not work redshift

[@Willopo100]

I think ACES is king still

[@NewPlastic]

This town is big enough for two kings!

[@Meteotrance]

As long as you work the texture of your material and also do your compositing work with a formated open EXR file in 16 bit float and ACES CG color encoded ACES 2065 IS for converting Real log footage from camera to linear Space thats the normal workflow for making it efficient.