NIALL FERGUSON: How Civilisations Flourish (or Fail)

[@JohnAllie-f6o]

This was one of the bests conversations I have seen with Niall. To see his historical repertoire on display was epic. Josh really did well on bringing this out. Excellent

[@aftdel]

A fantastic interview. You drew a lot out of Niall, including intensity, that I haven’t seen in a while. One of the best interview I’ve seen from him…ever. A wonderful conversation thank you.

[@mjlirette9297]

Great to see Niall educate this dude Josh

[@EnglishFolkWisdom]

Very good discussion. Ferguson often sounds like he's on autopilot because he is interviewed so often. Here he was prodded out of his comfort zone and had to start growling a bit, which makes him much more interesting to listen to .

[@ryue65]

Well spotted. I agree.

[@LahiruSenaratne-grt25]

Brilliant stuff, thank you for hosting such an insightful conversation!

[@harrying882]

Brilliant what a mighty man he is, thank you mr Ferguson.

[@markhow4266]

Excellent conversation. Grateful for the evolved thoughts. The efficient frontier is so broad, and the local politics so hot, that; a) I couldn’t possibly read as experts have on subjects, and b) thoughtfully assess the information (as separate from the written word).

[@zvitz5251]

Excellent conversation ! Kudos!!!

[@Grtd965]

I really want to invite Dr. Ferguson to Seoul to hear what would happen between two Korea near future. We are desperate to liberate 25 million North Korean from utterly brutal Kim's regime. Niall is so fascinating.

[@scottferree9286]

Love Niall. Great job pushing back about reparations etc.

[@joenalven4056]

A point of contention within an excellent discussion. I might call it: the book, the podcast, the tweet and AI. All of this trades on the production AND the consumption of Information in search of knowledge. None of us will become Niall and the many others in the same place. So most of us are engaged in trade offs in working through an understanding of reality(ies). We are the ones who need to find what mix will work for us. There are many, as has always been the case, who will sleepwalk through these moments and vote accordingly. I would have loved traveling down this rabbit hole with Niall.

[@johnmodra9543]

we can all , with our children , do what our forefathers taught us to do and grow up wise by doing what you do do well and recognizing when its not your business to NOT pontificate or speculate on the net . Find the real experts in their area and ask dumb questions as i think Josh did well!

[@johnmodra9543]

It can take great courage to ask a dumb question! -- because it reminds us how little we all know ?

[@TheRtHonEdmundBurke]

If the differences are from institutions rather than culture, what's the explanation for differences between people who live in Virginia vs. West Virginia? Or people in the San Joaquin Valley vs. people in the Bay Area? Why did the institutions of the British Empire produce such different results in Pakistan and India, but such similar results in Canada and Australia? Did the 1 day-old State of Israel have an institutional advantage over the Arab countries in 1948, or was it instead a cultural advantage? The Eastern Poland vs. Western Ukraine argument also doesn't make sense - it's not the geography that houses the culture, but the people. The Poles moved west, and took their culture, and thus their institutions (existing and potential), with them. I am an admirer of Niall Ferguson, but trying to divorce a society's culture from its institutions seems wrong. If an institution is a system of incentives, but a culture is a system of values, then the culture will determine the acceptance, effectiveness, and durability of the institutions.

[@jezza669]

Brilliant work!

[@peterkingsford1398]

I’m glad NF pushed back on some of Szeps’ more ludicrous hypothetical scenarios, such as the Aus indigenous. They had not developed for all those thousands of years, when was it going to happen? They have the opportunity to hunter gather now, but I doubt there are any takers.

[@bkilg2509]

I think you would be surprised. There are a lot ( not 1000s but not 0) of aboriginal communities that still live, to a certain extent, as hunter/gatherers.

[@teekaa2520]

Great guest. Great interview.

[@awuma]

A wonderful conversation! 10:10 Don't forget that during and after WWII there were massive and quite violent population transfers (since the 1990's Balkan wars called "ethnic cleansing") between Poland and Ukraine (really the Soviet Union). Very few Ukrainians were left in Poland, and very few Poles in Soviet Ukraine after WWII. The Ukrainians displaced eastward, or left in what is now Western Ukraine, lived in Poland 1918-1939. Thus the "cultural" picture is quite confused, though most of the displaced Ukrainians were peasants who had lived under an essentially feudal system, whereas the Poles displaced westward would have controlled the land and politics (town and city commerce being more in the hands of Jews and Germans/Austrians as well as Poles and Ukrainians). Much of this area was in Galicia, part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire after Poland had been partitioned between Russia, Austria and Prussia in the late 18th century. A hundred thousand Poles and perhaps ten thousand Ukrainians were killed in inter-ethnic massacres during and after WWII. All of this history complicates Polish-Ukrainian relations to this day. Putin has on occasion proposed a partition of Ukraine between Russia, Poland and possibly Slovakia and Hungary. When Radek Sikorski revealed one such very private conversation in an interview with an obscure American journal circa 2013, he was forced by Prime Minister Tusk to pretend he was an idiot and deny it happened.

[@craigb4913]

Obviously institutions are critical. But does anyone believe if you imposed Western institutions on the Afghans or Syrians, their societies would accept and flourish under them? Culture is the context in which institutions operate.

[@peteradrian9466]

Start with the basic building blocks: rule of law, property rights, impartial courts, and *go slowly*

[@CanadianCitizen30]

What???? Bro the West has had a significant influence on democracy building in radical cultures. Literally anywhere with politics, voting or human rights was influenced by the success of the West.

[@davidharrison7023]

Fabulous is the word.

[@sunnyup2089]

Fantastic conversation but really a man teaching boy case.

[@jmcw9632]

Such a treasure is Sir Niall

[@Hello.Sailor]

Good episode.

[@rajivmurkejee7498]

I'd say that Fergy makes too much of the Scottish civil law vs English common law difference. Sure, it was historically significant but for a long time now the majority of law is just statute law.

[@AndreasFormosa]

A wonderful conversation with two very bright minds. I agree with Niall on most of what he says. The only two minor "complaints" are (1) he exaggerates the difference between Scots Law and English law; other than for property law the differences are quite minor; (2) he seems to suggest (although he makes a comment in passing to partialyl save it) that only the British legal and consitutional system provides for the rule of law, which of course is incorrect as other great European legal systems have also firmly established the rule of law. On a related note, other than the "white anglo colonies" the rest of the British empire fares worse in terms of rule of law vs the ex-Spanish colonies in Latin America. So I would be curious for Ferguson's thoughts on that.

[@rumbaughsteven5577]

I couldn’t believe that Iraq started with national elections. Voting for a president who is very remote from most people is not a good place to start. Voting for a dog catcher or an office where almost everyone already knows the candidates personally is where to start. It is not abstract. In a small area everyone may know all candidates and know which one follows through on what they say.

[@jakebarnes28]

Hamilton and Madison proved to some degree a republic can be large.

[@ryue65]

57:41 who are they referring to?

[@msomayya2828]

Edward Gibbons of modern world

[@Alfie1970Waterhouse]

One has more access to information. One is a classic. But classics can be superseded. Was it?

[@msomayya2828]

Books pity of war was an eye opener ultimate

[@Alfie1970Waterhouse]

Are all 17 books in the cannon. Just asking?

[@DavidW-e6e]

Great conversation but Niall is wrong about Scotland. Scotland's legal system may be rooted in the civilian tradition but it has evolved over time (especially post-Union) and is 90% or more common law. Scotland has very similar institutions to England/Wales in that respect. I think this may be the only point on which I could ever contest Niall, given Niall's formidable expertise - I have a first class degree in Scots law from Aberdeen University (with honours studies in comparative jurisprudence) and I am a Scots qualified constitutional lawyer (15yrs+ experience).

[@steveallan5184]

I don’t always agree with professor Ferguson but when I do I have to actually formulate a proper logical argument, that’s in my humble opinion is what the world has lost in the age of the algorithm

[@VincentFulco]

UK seems totally screwed,

[@msomayya2828]

I don't know about Australia

[@msomayya2828]

Absolutely

[@gunner5173]

Come Come The British in Africa and India were utterly brutal., 'Rule of Law' 'Property Rights' of British works well for whom? Certainly not the indigenous peoples. 'Precedent' of British common law does not include other cultural ways which can in fact be superior ways of managing life because they take into account the reality of natural law and living with nature. China? The opium wars subjugated China by drug addiction, no democracy there! Russia? West failed to take complete economic control post wall fall. China & Russia have triumphed and resist the West but this is seen as a failure? Hey let's look at the state of the UK & US. Collapsing is the appropriate description for the West. We should wake up.

[@Dominique-Zipporah]

It is inconceivable to me, how anyone could possibly believe that the world would have been better off, if all of the Americas and the Antipodes had been left to become continental sized versions of North Sentinel island.

[@thesolitaryadventurer]

Wokery gone wild. Silly childish thinking that is pervading adults now.

[@RisingStarViews]

Nial Fergusson's ancestors benefitted from the Empire, so he will definitely support it. This is very personal argument though I feel sympathy for him and his family who cannot enjoy that benefit any longer. Also recall the population of red Indians which was around 124 million, according to Roy Casandra of Austin School, over the several decades it was reduced to 25 million only. Howard Zinn said it was 59 million probably as big as that of Europe in 1492 and 0ver 90 percent perished, 12 million slaves were brought, 4 million perished in the Middle Passage. Zinnia asserted 55 million slaves were brought. According to Christopher Clark, a Cambridge historian, over 80 percent Red Indians decimated because of massacres, diseases etc. Zinn claims 55 million slaves were brought, one million Irish perished because of the British imposed famines while millions of Irish and other European served as indentured labourers in the new world while 35 million Indian also faced the same fate who died in British imposed Jamie's which were the result of British policies, over 40 percent British trade consisted of opium sale in the early 19th century, China was forced to buy opium, France killed millions in North Africa and other parts of the world, British introduced concentration camps in Kenya and other parts of the world, Germany played havoc with the lives of African colonies, Leopold of Belgium killed over ten million Africans , amputating over a million, Portugal and Spain looted silver and gold from South and Central America, Japan ruthlessly killed Chinese and people of other colonies. Nial talks about killings in China and Russia but he intends to ignore the brutalities of empires. By the way modern research claims one million were killed in the USSR. I am not justifying the brutality of Stalin and others but you tend to forget the oppression of western colonial powers---the genocides, massacres, plundering, imposition of opium, destruction of Indian and Chinese economy that would contribute over 40 percent to global economy. It is argued that the British laid railways to transport weapons. Shashi Tharoor has claimed that the entire education budget of British India was lesser than that of New York state or city and Fergusson has no answer to this. The British and other empires introduced protectionism and not free market as Neil claims. How many scientific institutions the Empire set up in India? The grim reality that agri tax would be waived off during the Mughal Time when a famine hit a certain area but the British, according to many historians, extorted this even during and after famines that complicated the situation. The USSR played a key in defeating Hitler losing 27 million people, over 30 million Soviets wounded and the country faced the destruction of over 34000 industries. Fergusson claims a lot about rule of law which principles of law allow a country to invade and subjugate others. Papers and guns invesnted in China and they made their way to Arab world and Europe. Agriculture was used by the Middle East first but it reached Europe as well. The life was brute in European continent which was overcrowded and impoverished. The America's were not overcrowded that is why they didn't face as many famines or diseases as the Europeans did. I can go one for hours

[@Royal-Rover]

I wish to see a comparison between Australia and India for that imperial regard.

[@msomayya2828]

There will always be the difference but i feel the rules of laws of Britain where the best

[@thewrightoknow]

This guy is way too optimistic and seems to trust in human nature! Good luck to that!

[@rumbaughsteven5577]

Frederick Remington, the famous American Western artist proposed that the most warlike tribes of the late 19th Century be incorporated into the US Army as light cavalry. He argued that for self respect becoming farmers or clerks would demean them, but they would happily put their lives on the line as warriors and they would retain the respect of their families. He envisioned them as sort of American Gurkas. Sacajawea, the young woman who guided Lewis and Clark, had been kidnapped as a child and sold to a French trapper as a wife before the expedition arrived. Would Jim Thorpe been happier to be known as the best athlete among a few dozen tribal children? No outrage of often well-meaning British or American was not commonly exercised before the arrival of Anglo people, except children sent to Indian schools were thought to be doing them a service in integrating them, while, stolen children in more primitive societies were just slaves.

[@jakebarnes28]

How dangerous can our ideas be, and still be hosted on your channel? Curious about the idea of "freedom."

[@msomayya2828]

Farmers were taxed as per the situation

[@giorfi-n7v]

NF states his opinions like fact. It is not difficult at all to argue humans would be better off as hunter gathers...we still are and we were adapted to it, over millions of years unlike now where many of us suffer in the modern world ...alienation, loss of meaning etc.

[@thesolitaryadventurer]

"Better off" meaning less depressed? Or "better off" meaning average age at death of sub-30?

[@giorfi-n7v]

​@@thesolitaryadventurer both actually. Average age was so low because of infant and childhood mortality. There were older people just like there are older wild animals. Death is part of life, except we do not accept that now so when it does happen esp to young, it is a tragedy and causes intolerable suffering ...when before it was just normal....it happened to everyone. And now many old people are kept alive with pills but suffer terrible quality of life and are a burden...along with disabled. Also there was far less inequity. Life had meaning and purpose...to survive. Now many of us are lost, and resort to addictions....consumerism, making money, or drugs, bad food etc.

[@D1804-h5c]

While modernity has been originated from western europe, it needed the rest of the world to be fully born and not always in the best way. Without european expansion, you would have a world cyclically filled with roman-like empires with wild fringes while waiting for religion sophisticated like christianity to pacify and show them a new way that would have possibly end up to technical progress and human life inprovement. These latters have indeed precedes modernity.

[@gagamba9198]

_'One thing's for sure, it wouldn't have been Wakanda.'_ You walked right into that one. Ludicrous claim that it could have looked like that. And it is, there's not a 'million different ways this could go'. There are few viable ones. If not European imperial expansion, the most likely invaders of Australia would have been from what is today Indonesia, likely Javanese as they were exceptional seafarers and had a very large population. The Maori are another candidate. The Ming dynasty certainly had the technology to do so as well plus the wealth and population to fund and man mass voyages, but they were not open sea mariners for extended periods, preferring to hug the coastline. Certainly, they could have worked their way through the Indonesian or Philippine archipelagos.

[@gunner5173]

China and Indonesia had been trading with the Indigenous Australians for centuries but did not want to colonise in the way Britain did. Britain ravaged the world plundering and murdering for their own advantage. British Empire was not glorious.

[@msomayya2828]

Punjab and up can grow them very cheaply and solve the stubble burning at quarter the cost and save India a huge cost

[@msomayya2828]

Under the British not ico but the Empire

[@anonymouslyopinionated656]

Don't try and justify Imperialism. Especially not with the underlying assumption, well, if we hadn't done it for them, they would ever have gotten to it themselves.

[@jasoncollins1702]

New Zealand is about to embark on a program of reparations for abuse in state care victims

[@AbdulSattar-mp9de]

Nial Fergusson says he is happy as long as his books are sold, no matter who buys it. This is his approach in other matters as well. He can flatter war criminals like Henry Kissinger or write things that are loved by the neo conservative. He can go to any extent to get attention of those who are in power

[@pmmsfc]

Min 55

[@isaacpeterson3620]

Enjoying the conversation but the amount of vocal fry is annoying

[@ryue65]

Once you begin to hear it, it cant be unheard.

[@AbdulSattar-mp9de]

At least social media has provided a platform to ordinary people that they can come and expose lies of Fergusson. Otherwise you would have had never enough money to print a book against elitist writers like Fergusson. Publishers would not take your books. So, social media in a way has broken that monopoly.

[@msomayya2828]

Because if the peasants rose up the Empire would have been finished

[@jakebarnes28]

Please define woke. Pretty please.

[@msomayya2828]

For the peasants the British was the greatest rulers in india that is why they ruled India

[@msomayya2828]

That's Shashi Tharoor 😂

[@msomayya2828]

Then the muslim rule should pay more Shashi is hilarious 🤣

[@msomayya2828]

The British gave us this law unlike the Mughals and maratha pindari and razakars

[@tyc00n]

you are an interviewer, stop interupting

[@msomayya2828]

America did😂do it

[@razraza3183]

West gave genocide, slavery, colonization, plague, Holocaust, mass starvation. East, mainly India, gave compassion, wisdom, Yoga, Buddhism, number system, Sanskrit, Kama Sutra, joy and happiness.

[@chenmarco206]

Well finelly I got the answer why Niall is kind of pushing to hard the Putin=Hitler theme.. it all goes down to his old Russia -Weimar theory. Ok.apparently a briliant and fascinating historian can also be traped in a conseption. A wrong one for shure. I wonder how of all people he can't see the different between the persons and the backround exc..

[@b.alexanderjohnstone9774]

Hello 'humans'? Try 'ladies and gentlemen' mate, or leave off boasting about 'dangerous ideas'. You're scared.

[@JBLegal09]

UNSUBSCRIBED

[@jessemadison8596]

Why lol

[@MaddensMonday01]

The first 20 mins Ferguson seems to waffle a load of contradictory nonsense - and ups his 'middle class west scotland protestant' accent to cover it up

[@MD-ib4ix]

Josh > Niall

[@D1804-h5c]

While modernity has been originated from western europe, it needed the rest of the world to be fully born and not always in the best way. Without european expansion, you would have a world cyclically filled with roman-like empires with wild fringes while waiting for religion sophisticated like christianity to pacify and show them a new way that would have possibly end up to technical progress and human life inprovement. These latters have indeed precedes modernity.