The Train Route That Confuses Ticket Apps

When you try to use a ticket app to buy a ticket from anywhere on the Borderlands Line to the Hope Valley Line, they seem to get somewhat confused and give you very bizarre routes.. Let's do a more logical version of one of them!
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[@statorcs]

It's not that it confuses the journey planners, its more so that the journey from Penyffordd to Edale via Shotton/Manchester Piccadilly isn't a valid route, so it shows you the only trains running that *do* offer the valid route, which is via Wrexham and Chester instead. It's not valid, ultimately because you're going further than you need to, (up to Shotton) but there's only 2 services in a day that allow the correct transfers at the right stations. TfW are the flow owners for this fare, so might be worth reaching out to them and getting clarification because it's always a pretty interesting topic

[@Nooticus]

I see. This ‘valid route’ system is outdated, broken, and makes very little sense to regular travellers, let alone most enthusiasts like Nick… you literally have to find and read this microsoft excel document with tens of thousands of lines to be able to find what the valid routes are for your journey. I wish I was joking but im not. The infrastructure on our railway is excellent and so improved compared what it was 5-10 years ago, but the backend systems are as broken as ever.

[@wintrwunderland]

@@Nooticus Don't be silly, they're not going to provide you with an Excel document with tens of thousands of lines...the Yellow Pages (what you refer to) is a 2,270-page long PDF document with 39 lines of routeings on each page! That makes, to my count... 88,530 lines. Ouch.

[@Nooticus]

@@wintrwunderland indeed!! it was definitely about that many...

[@slorida]

@@wintrwunderland What's really going to make the mind boggle is that in 1996, when the Routeing Guide first launched, there were 140 yellow pages with 72 lines of text on each, which is just 10,080 lines in total. There are now 38 pages of 'easements', which are best read by computers, in comparison to the original 8 pages, set out by operator and including address and phone numbers for each 'pricing manager'. The problem is not that the system is outdated, it is that it has become too complicated because of greed.

[@slorida]

It is valid on JG+HO (changing between Routeing Maps at Stockport), and I cannot see an 'Easement' to forbid it. The Journey Planners really are only as good as their programming. The current Routeing Guide is littered with 'Easements' that are there purely to help the Journey Planners work out valid journeys.

[@jackoneill76]

For those of us not familiar with the area, it would’ve helped showing some kind of map at the beginning of the video.

[@rogerwilco2]

Yes. I have not clue what and where he was talking about, except for it probably being somewhere in the UK.

[@georgeh5075]

Google maps?

[@Oznej]

Nah, openstreetmap is where it's at.

[@mpp24912]

Agreed! A nice map and route would be really helpful for such videos!

[@MikeWillSee]

The TPE train getting cancelled twice and then the following train also being cancelled is the most TPE thing I've ever seen

[@joj.]

Godspeed TPE, never change lol

[@andypughtube]

TPE, never express and frequently not trans. Should be Cis Pennine Sluggish. (This is in the Latin sense, nothing to do with sex and gender, just to be clear)

[@gabrielstevens3884]

They must have looked at Southern and thought that's the way to run a train service 😂

[@chbmckie]

Any split-ticket supporting journey planner actually does show this journey as they use there own routing algorithms rather than using the National Rail Enquiries one.

[@barnabykirk7662]

Broooo no way just I found this video lol

[@global2829]

I put it in Google Maps and it recommended this journey - guess that's why!

[@NoNameAtAll2]

their*

[@yorkcyclist]

No different algorithm is needed; it's simply down to the TOCs being obsessed with not offering combinations of tickets. Except Chiltern do, but not as well as Trainsplit

[@annasargeant5859]

On National Rail enquiries the greenford line is not shown for West Ealing to Greenford, even though the branch is shorter and more frequent

[@metropod]

Very little makes sense with the Greenford line, such as why GWR has hung on to it and not tried to pass it off to TfL as an Overground line.

[@myonlydemandisbacktowork8759]

@@metropod I bet noone wants the line, noone needs the line. It still open because it's London + it's way beyond beeching now (Actually I bet it doesn't lose that much money right?)

[@andreawoelke]

Did you check if the ticket office staff knew the straightforward journey? Apps are supposed to replace them, but the ticket prices from the ticket office are often cheaper.

[@Kromaatikse]

Penyffordd station has no ticket office, no ticket machines, and no waiting room. Just a couple of bus shelters, a bike rack, and a car park. And a signalbox.

[@michaelhall6178]

Penyffordd - my home station! And good job on the pronunciation 🙂

[@ET-hm8do]

Mine too,

[@Thornaby37]

One reason why I would never trust a single app for journey planning, but also check other sources of information such as National Rail Enquiries and Real Time Trains. Some of the results they come up with are totally weird and make no sense

[@kevinellis8869]

I had a similar problem when trying to travel the Brigg line, National Rail wouldn't sell an 'any permitted route' ticket Nottingham-Barnetby, I'm guessing because of the limited service. Like you I'm finding I'm visiting a split level station much more than usual recently, in my case it's Tamworth. Keep up showing us the obscure journeys.

[@alicehancock1]

Thought I'd check this out in the South Western railway app and that one does give you journeys via Shotton and Piccadilly and will happily sell you a ticket via that route

[@Eric_Hunt194]

Pontefract Monkhill (or Tanshelf) to Pontefract Baghill would be a good "pointless journey" for the future. Monkhill to Tanshelf would be a bit uneventful of course!

[@lonmar0612]

This situation perfectly sums up the ridiculousness of the rial fare system.

[@davidjackson2580]

As do plenty of other things. My local station is Marple. A Marple to Shrewsbury return is £47.40 according to the National Rail site. Marple - Man Picc return is £6.70 and Man Picc - Shrewsbury return is £28.80 for a total of £35.50. Quite a difference. Totally baffling.

[@audiocoffee]

@@davidjackson2580 Brinnington here. there was a time not so long ago where, anyone wanting a train to Manchester had to get a train to Bredbury (one stop) make like a fully charged superhero to cross the pedestrian bridge to the opposite platform to catch the train to Manchester - because between 4 - 6pm, no trains stopped here for Manchester. even the frequency of trains from Manchester was screwy, with some terminating at Rose Hill and some going to Sheffield - and sometimes, with limited stops, if you were on the wrong train hoping to swap - you had to play it carefully. and the Sheffield train is always packed out and standing room only - both directions (and only 2 carriages... yeah, gotta love rail maths, right? 🤦‍♀) if you're disabled - you're screwed. the winner: stagecoach buses, £5 dayrider. interesting station worthy of note: Reddish South. one train per week!

[@scrsucks1470]

wigan wallgate to wigan north western

[@TheSickyNicky]

We provide the journey planner for TrainSplit. As others have commented, via Shotton and Manchester isn't a Permitted Route. Our route diagnostics show: Through Mapped Route Checking SHT-CTR-G31-G78-G20-CLY Off route at Chinley Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route.

[@alistairbell3935]

That's... weird. Back in the day (like, 25 years ago) I was a Routeing Guide expert, so I picked up the Routeing Guide again. The relevant Routeing Points are Shotton and Chinley, as you said; and the maps are JG+HO, JO+HO and MJ+HO. The really weird part is that HO, which covers the Hope Valley line, does not include Stockport-Manchester. Nevertheless, JG gets you from Shotton via Frodsham, Warrington BQ and Newton-le-Willows to Manchester and on to Stockport if need be. So I can't figure out how the Routeing Guide prevents this -- is there a data error somewhere?

[@danielmohammed1510]

The Hope Valley stopper doesn't go via Stockport. It goes via Reddish North, and that's the problem. You can either switch from map JG to map HO at Stockport, or at Manchester. But if you switch maps at Manchester, it forces the route to go via Guide Bridge instead.@@alistairbell3935

[@AbsoluteTVYT]

​@@alistairbell3935As you say, Shotton - Chinley is JG+HO, JO+HO, MJ+HO. You have to switch to the next map at the earliest common point you go through. In this case, you have to switch to HO at Warrington as you have to go via Warrington (only route between the two maps) and that point is on both JG and HO. This means you're limited to getting to Chinley via Manchester and Guide Bridge as HO doesn't contain Manchester to Stockport.

[@johncrwarner]

Tricking the app into giving you the journey you want is an art form in its own right

[@yorkcyclist]

Trainsplit will do it; other ones don't come close

[@nigelkthomas9501]

I’m surprised you didn’t do Hope (Clwyd) to Hope (Derbyshire)! 😜

[@joachimbiddulph1001]

He was beyond Hope

[@arthurvasey]

Or the two Shottons - the one in Wales and the one in County Durham - or other places that have identical names!

[@orientalmoons]

I did Moreton (Dorset) to Moreton (Merseyside) a few years ago

[@nixcails]

Journeys from St Budeaux are like that. Like many places the legacy of having two railway companies gave the village two stations. St Budeaux Ferry Road two platforms on Great Western and St Budeaux Victoria Road now a single platform on the old LSWR. Fares vary from both stations despite being a few metres apart. Unlike most multistation places that have an all stations ticket St Budeaux missed this luxury!

[@chasbell4510]

i live in Eastbourne on the South Coast and to travel across London they always tell you to use the underground which is another expense rather than using overground routes which you can get discounted fares on. I very rarely use the underground as i can go from Eastbourne to St Pancras, Kings Cross and Paddington by overground routes.

[@paultidd9332]

An interesting anomaly - could this be a new series?

[@dafergs]

Subscribed. Would have been good to have a map or diagram.

[@jacobporrett]

Split tickets can be strange sometimes...

[@mattevans4377]

Another way to do this is Bidston, Lime Street, EMR to Edale. Edit: Just put it into Google maps out of curiosity. It's the actual recommended route, and is only 3 hours and 2 minutes.

[@The_Gamer_66]

The SBB Mobile App does show the route via Manchester Piccadilly, probably because you can't by UK Tickets on there.

[@DogeDragone]

I love how this guy just throws out random train and railroad line facts… I also loved the sheep noises at the end

[@TimothyEBaldwin]

Try buying a ticket from Hull to Edinburgh for travel after 8am. LNER's website claims "No outbound trains match your search", results from Northern and Cross Country are variable.

[@Tekker2234]

Funny, this reminds me a bunch of how google maps often generates and recommends some very odd travel plans between locations in New York City because it tries to minimize the amount of walking distance before anything else. I recently was recommended a strange route going way out of the way and taking like 3 transfers which would have resulted in a a 30 minute trip to a local office supply store that I could have gotten to in 15 minutes without any transfers by walking 2 more blocks.

[@Pallethands]

A map explaining all of this would be nice

[@ZLDSmogless]

For next point to point: Newtonmore to Newton Abbott via Newton (Lanark), Newton-on-Ayr, Newton for hyde and Newton-le-Willows

[@katashworth41]

Very excited to be doing the Hope Valley Line next weekend.

[@shyguypromotions]

Brilliant nick! Well done

[@BladeRunner21577]

The best times to film are between 10am and 4pm on weekdays... Funny that, as it seems to coincide with the times that people are usually working for a living.

[@MichaelCampin]

I used to ride the 230 units when they were on the District Line before being refurbished and converted.

[@Steggs]

On a certain website, it follows the same journey you do with all-day services as an option 😂

[@MRTransportVideos]

It does look odd seeing the Class 230 with 'normal' seating, as I have many memories of them in their correct form as the D Stock, going past my old school in Southfields!

[@robWolvesfan1]

Which school… if you don’t mind me asking 👀 (I also went to school in Southfields)

[@MRTransportVideos]

Wandsworth Boys School (1977-84)

[@michaeljohndennis2231]

Finding direct journeys on SailRail from Manchester (preferably Manchester Victoria) to Holyhead for the ferry to Dublin is a real hassle on any app and with any train operator, as is going from Platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly and changing at Chester is a real pain - many of these trains don’t even call at Deansgate/Castlefield which makes connecting with Metrolink Trams so much easier

[@nikkiparksy]

Same with me travelling too Leicester from NCL. I was having to go down to either KGX and walk too Paddington to travel back up or cross-country too chesterfield too swap too Leicester. Then found out there was a Birmingham to Gatwick train via Leicester and Peterborough while i was there ..Not on any Train apps.

[@peterdawson2645]

I had a quick look on National Rail and (if I'd been in Penyffordd, which I wasn't) I could have done it it 2h 36m. But with 5 changes, and for thirty quid without my railcard. But it DID show journeys via Shotton and Picadilly as well.

[@whatdoiaddhere]

I’ve been through penyffordd station on the borderlands line from Wrexham central-Bidston-Liverpool Lime Street Low Level.

[@Nooticus]

This ‘valid route’ system is outdated, broken, and makes very little sense to regular travellers, let alone most enthusiasts like Nick… you literally have to find and read this microsoft excel document with tens of thousands of lines to be able to find what the valid routes are for your journey. I wish I was joking but im not. The infrastructure on our railway is excellent and so improved compared what it was 5-10 years ago, but the backend systems are as broken as ever.

[@Nooticus]

Great video though btw!

[@thenorthspotter]

Great vid as always! 🎉

[@martinryan2370]

I actually found a route in Ireland which goes from one station to another 25 km away which you can go by 3 other lines to get there for the same price journey time 3 hrs plus

[@haddockman30]

Which Stations?

[@martinryan2370]

@@haddockman30 Templemore to ballybrophy via Waterford back to Kildare to ballybrophy. On a single ticket it's only one part of the day

[@robinhayhurst5943]

10am to 3pm.... least amount of busyness??? You mean.... off peak????

[@dvboy]

If you try to go from Wolverhampton to Walsall or vice versa you need split tickets to do the shortest journey, changing at Tame Bridge Parkway. The cheapest journey takes twice as long via Birmingham.

[@richardbutler4488]

The uk ticket 🎫 system is broken, way too complicated and expensive. God help the punter when they kill off what’s left of the booking offices. Not that many conductors left that will sell you a ticket over fining you for not having one. Try booking an rail and sail ticket to Ireland 🇮🇪 by avoiding online and a ticket office. The ticket vending machines can sell them but almost all of them don’t have the destination programmed in. I think the unofficial reason is that the ticket could be a lot cheaper than an local uk rail journey, so it makes sense to make the purchase of them so difficult 😥

[@keithparker1346]

Ime IF you seek out a conductor to obtain a ticket they are usually very accommodating. If you are a teen and not even bothered to do that expect them to be erring on the side of fare evasion

[@Wouter10123]

This video could have benefitted from a map.

[@officialmcdeath]

Trainplanner allergic to Shotton shock - there needs to be an 'Expert User' mode on these apps, whereby you can suggest a route \m/

[@Arghans]

I always have issues with journeys to South-West from Waterloo. Even putting in the via it doesn’t want to give the options and you can’t buy one ticket either.

[@ukeleleEric]

You wonder whether going to a ticket office (while you still can!) might have caused you to be offered this option. As far as I am concerned, a very-slightly-longer journey that has fewer changes is better for me and most passengers, because you can settle down for the journey and only have to pick up all your luggage when transferring.

[@hannahk1306]

Exactly, if a journey is more than 3 trains I generally won't bother and I don't really have the time or knowledge to be researching optimum routes - that's what the ticket finder algorithms are supposed to do for me!

[@Kromaatikse]

If you're starting from Penyffordd, there *is* no ticket office.

[@mudchute4dlr]

Good luck if starting at (insert correct spelling of pennyford here) because apparently there is no ticket office there

[@lastofthebrownies]

National Rail app shows both 2-change via Shotton and 5-change via Wrexham et al.

[@TB76Returns]

Finally Nick gets his 230!

[@charlesarnold4963]

I’ve just looked this up on the National Rail app and it gives several journey via Shotton and Manchester!

[@xrlveloce7990]

I found a ticket from penyfford to edale for £8.45 and is a pretty frequent service 1. 2FXX to Bidston 2. 2WXX to Liverpool lime st 3. 2AXX to Piccadilly 4. 2S82 to Edale albeit with a 4h 47 journey time... The journey in this video however is available on railboard and is a pretty neat little app that shows you all departures from a station as well as train heading codes for any train nerds such as myself! I reccomend checking it out if you get a minute (not sponsered lol)

[@MichaelSebastianTodd]

brilliant video

[@Busandtrain123]

I tried doing the journey Nick did on my journey planner app and I ended up with 6 different journeys I could do per day.

[@britannia55]

Sounds like a tube train.

[@acmenipponair]

Well, you can be glad that your journey planner is not as stupid as the german DB app... that DB app when you try to use the regional trains from going somewhere in the north to somewhere in the south will ALWAYS try to send you via a small 1 1/2 platform stop where you get greeded by a one car train similar to a pacer for then around 200-300 passengers...

[@OmerLovesLife]

Lovely vid once again nick!

[@davidgarnett5011]

I've just put in Penyffordd to Edale via Shotton into National Rail Journey Planner. Route shows up with a price £17,31 taking 3 hrs 41 min.

[@tsl56]

All very Jarvis Cocker in face, accent and manners. Don't worry, that's a compliment.

[@latido-ondulado]

great video nick

[@barryread423]

Great video Nick! As always! I’m going to put my grumpy hat on. It’s great to see the 230’s getting used. We got them on the Bedford to Bletchley line originally only to loose them when the company that maintained them went into administration. We live on an island where it wouldn’t hurt to move a unit to a location that could maintain them. On the other hand the abundance of displaced units like 150s/153s/156s etc that cannot be drafted in to stand in at short notice. As for the “well we need time” excuse. It’s been months….. months and nothing has happened. Since when has train science been more complicated than rocket science? The fact an “operational” part a line that is supposed to be operational as part of the East-West rail link in a few years cannot operate, is a joke!

[@06racing]

KZbin is a strange place. We are watching someone ride public transit.

[@BensTransport]

Congrats on getting your first 230 Nick

[@InkItOut]

Technically his first 230 was a few weeks back but we didn’t record anything 😂 it took us a while to try and get one but eventually we did

[@deusteapot117]

No! You are the recipient of positive words

[@BladeRunner21577]

I find the modern trains are cold clinical excessively loud and unpleasant to ride over all.

[@dredfell]

I do also like the somewhat to very obscure routings and lesser used and lesser known about routes! Keep going with these!!

[@philipedwards439]

Heard your engineering announcement of a Northern train today. Actually felt proud for you!!

[@Jacobhouse610]

Epic video man

[@Kimberley42]

I've had a vaguely similar issue when trying to buy tickets from Gloucester to Evesham, which always includes a change in Worcester, but rather than getting a selection of singles and returns, the only option was to buy the Freedom Severn and Solent rover ticket. Bizarre for a journey I know should only cost around £20ish return

[@Sim0nTrains]

Nice interesting journey Nick. Great video

[@andrewbrown5263]

brilliant video nick love it

[@cypher686]

@4:32 HAHAHAHA I am literally ROTFLOL. They got the stations wrong.. they crazy man, they reallll crazy

[@stefencooke]

6:26 the Jen point

[@6yjjk]

Worst I've ever had was from Virgin Trains' website about 15 years ago. It was so bad that I saved it. Runcorn East to Warrington Bank Quay. 7 minutes, no intermediate stations, piss-easy. Well: Depart Arrive Travel by Duration 0708 Runcorn East 0715 Warrington Bank Quay Train 0:07 0715 Warrington Bank Quay 0749 Warrington Central Walk 0:34 0749 Warrington Central 0752 Padgate Train 0:03 Change train at Padgate - 0:16 connection time 0808 Padgate 0812 Warrington Central Train 0:04 0812 Warrington Central 0837 Warrington Bank Quay Walk 0:25

[@LouisOnAir]

Hi Nick, do you ever use apps that work out the cheapest fares using split ticketing? I wonder if one of those would've spotted this route you took.

[@NickBadley]

I tend to use TrainSplit to find out the most optimal split ticketing options, then book those. Unless there isn't a split ticket option for my journey, then I'll just use a TOC app.

[@johnmehaffey9953]

These vlogs show that we need to take the railways out of private hands and back into the public realm, the good old days when you turned up at the station and bought your ticket for the next train or any train of your choice going to wherever you where going and the people in the ticket office knew where to get you to and from your destination without much hassle

[@myonlydemandisbacktowork8759]

Yes it is always fiddly. For example - London to Chester. If you take the cheaper West Midland train terminating at Crewe, you must buy two seperate ticket

[@Clivestravelandtrains]

Great film Nick. Personally I never use Apps and still use ticket offices, and this video illustrates why they should be retained as many ticket staff would know about this quirk. You have to be a magician though - for example Glasgow to Lancaster (with a railcard) is £26 return, Glasgow to Carnforth (with a railcard) is £52 return. Why? Because the train companies want to rip us off. Incidentally the National Rail website shows the journey you did, with approximately an hourly service, but for more money than you paid.

[@harviemilligan1887]

I had to go from Glasgow to Cardiff a few years back, working it out, it was around £130 for Glasgow to Crewe with Virgin and £15 Crewe to Cardiff with ATW. I then realised that the £15 was also valid from Manchester to Cardiff, and Glasgow to Manchester was £17 with Trans Pennine. £100 or so saved!

[@Bve542]

zour on a d train - ex D stock

[@Archivus23]

Train speedrunner guy

[@frogspawn11]

National rail app works fine

[@nigelkthomas9501]

Just checked the journey you’re doing and it is odd that hardly any journeys come up online. LNER has nothing!

[@gwrydd]

you're probably not going to read this but here goes anyway; the way to pronounce penyffordd is closer to nevord

[@HanyouGoddess]

the chester line to birmingham international isn't wrong. i've taken it before.

[@BoBandits]

Add a map next time?

[@domshawcross970]

Can you go to morecambe on the longest train route please

[@MerseyrailOST]

I love shotton 😍

[@kokobwild2413]

Nankid

[@londonalicante]

You might want to include a map so people not familiar with the lines in that area know what the hell you're talking about. Especially as you don't sound like you're originally from that area. The issue you mention happens with train journeys all over the country, of course.

[@Eshlu-Gaming]

your like tom scott

[@maedero05]

Privitazaion, wonderfull ! Except, delays and cancelations wich are too common nowadays not bad result. Computer aren´t humans who are much less inteligent than. Disapointment, too narrow changing times, alternative routes, not the shortest wich allways the basis shortest time not always viable. That time for such short regional journey is really outrages, from london to edinburgh your just about the same what distance do we have than ?

[@keithparker1346]

Privatisation has meant money going out of the country. I believe most railway services are owned by foreign companies. Just re nationalise them

[@elixier33]

Dunno why you care. Trains suck. I wouldn't dislike them so much if they weren't so damn expensive.

[@madaboutsnooker147]

wtf is wrong with UK and cancelling so many trains XD its actually hilarious

[@neilcrawford8303]

What with the ticketing oddities, poor connections, fare prices and as you highlighted, cancellations, it's no wonder people who have the option choose to drive. It's okay if you're a rail passenger to wait ages for connections or due to cancellations, but introduce a 20mph speed limit that may add a minute or two to motorists journeys and there's uproar that makes it onto the press and TV news. The TPE cancellations are a real pain, as they make up many of the services that connect Liverpool and Manchester, also for connections at Oxford Road to Piccadilly where some services terminate, such as those from Southport.

[@keithparker1346]

Omg what's with all this 20mph speed restriction conspiracy stuff. We are talking about rail travel

[@panman1964]

One of the suggestions from google maps is: 20:00 (TFW) Penyffordd to Bidston 20:46 (MerseyRail) Bidston to Liverpool Lime St 21:37 (EMR) Liverpool Lime St to Edale you're welcome :)

[@BsBsBock]

Wales is tbh the worst area in the UK its sooo run down and impoverished

[@AFCManUk]

Similar issues within London when travelling between Catford and Catford Bridge (Though it's a pointless journey, so why anyone would wa.... Wait a minute!!!)

[@amyryan763]

Kidding

[@andrewnelson4057]

Why not Hope to Hope...?

[@InkItOut]

Maybe that is planned for something else 😏

[@MrTransportAddict]

Hooray! Nick finally rid a 230!