Nihility Makes No Sense (Honkai: Star Rail)

A discussion about the Nihility Path and DoT(Damage over time) in Honkai: Star Rail and different ways I think it could be improved.
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[@NearAir]

My head cannon is Nihility doesn’t have an identity, because caring about its own identity goes against the principle of Nihility, which is not caring

[@anshtalele1547]

holy shit that makes so much sense

[@neel5715]

Tbf Nihility is now become jack of all trades because they have none to be master of so better to just whatever they want right?

[@sirixaysabandith3903]

Nihility = Technical mechanic gameplay?

[@Livie2_1]

Ya Even IX Doesn't Know They're There

[@regalseagull]

Yeah but Gameplay paths and Lore paths aren't the same

[@Argenta_Rosa]

In my opinion, DoT wasn't supposed to be locked to nihility. Looking at the version 1.0 characters; serval, hook, asta, and himeko are all characters that had some DoT elements to their respective kits. Sampo and kafka were most likely the only reason DoT had any association with nihility. The reason most new DoT units are nihility is specifically to make use of the lightcones designed for kafka and sampo. Erudition was in a similar position to nihility in regards to playstyle, with Erudition being the "follow-up attack" path, with that sentiment changing only after the release of topaz. DoT was never supposed to be the playstyle of nihility. It's just that many dedicated DoT characters happen to be nihility.

[@insertnamehere1398]

FYM HIMEKO ANC ASTA ARE DOT FKCUSED

[@kevinm7927]

@@insertnamehere1398 they never said that lol

[@imnotreanalbertospynotatal6968]

​@@insertnamehere1398 they have DoT elements but aren't necessarily focused on it. ASTA applies burn, so does himeko.

[@Zoeila]

Those dots are weak AF though and just serve to turn on passives

[@Bruin263]

@@Zoeila I mean asta can work in sim uni as a free 70% attack and can occasionaly apply an extra dot for your nihility blessings.

[@michapiasta3072]

Not to mention Fugue is pretty much a harmony character, just prevented from running good harmony lightcones

[@dreamsandhopes6802]

specfically s5ddd,which is added on her e2😑

[@Accountthatexists]

She's BY far the worst case of this nihility trend

[@000azeva]

@@Accountthatexistsliterally like now we just have a random super break support in nihility class?? 😭

[@NuhaNino]

@@000azeva real, the firefly payola is insane

[@valerie_sees]

​@@NuhaNinofirefly getting the lashings when she's obviously a support for rappa 💀

[@saigonoryuu3101]

nihility having no identity is poetic

[@GatchaPom]

I don’t think DoT was ever meant to be Nihility specific as Serval, an Erudition character from the beginning of the game, can apply DoT shock with her ultimate.

[@aomafura3374]

Serval and Hook

[@TebbleTV]

@@aomafura3374 Himeko can also apply a dot.

[@Tiku-]

Himeko

[@dumbitchstella]

I just think that DoT doesn't work on HSR because why would anyone want a unit that does damage Over Time when all of the endgame modes are about killing enemies in the Least Amount of Time? It's just so more valuable to just slap an enemy in the face for 100k damage than to apply a dot and wait 3 turns for it to do the same amount of damage, the only way to make it worth it is to manually detonate these dots, which makes the path completely reliant on Kafka. Also it very funny that both Gui and Luka, characters who are supposed to be DoT units, work 100% better on a break team than a DoT team even if you have Kafka.

[@ladyhdwastaken]

I mean, tbf, all DOT units *can* manually detonate their own DOTs (except for Black Swan) but the only ones worth running as DOT are well.. the 5*s and Sampo. And Sampo needs his E4 to detonate his DOTs (but he does it better than Luka or Gui IMO) Also phys and fire break multipliers are too good to NOT run gui and luka as break units, especially Luka since his breaks are freaking massive and the way bleed scales is insane

[@fl2ur]

​@ladyhdwastaken tbh I really think they messed up with different break multipliers, because it kinda pigeon holes certain elements into that role. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

[@duongnguyen-s1i]

but like the point of dot is during a course of a fight, dot deal more dmg overall but since most dot units multiplier are from 1.0 or bs 2.0. their multipliers just sucks plus being it a dot. like if hoyo have to retroactively buff an archetype, it has to be dot

[@mr.protagonist5639]

​@@duongnguyen-s1iproblem with that is your not supposed to have fights last long enough for that overall damage to pay off. Unless you make the payoff more immediate and bigger but doing that wouldn't even be DoT anymore. That's why the archetype is held hostage by kafka's kit and will likely always be. Even if they release a support your still gonna want to detonate those ticks. A nihity healer/shielder would only go to acheron or kafka not change the teams like with hunt and FUA or superbreak.

[@_Brono_]

To me Luka is more of a test of Break character meta before superbreak. He benefits by applying Bleed in Break and detonating the bleed in broken enemies

[@AevyCh]

They intentionally made non-Nihility units apply debuff to prevent Acheron from fully benefitting from them.

[@madladdie7069]

It has also allowed the sustain to be able to generate stacks which is incredibly helpful. Preservation TB is the example I'd use because of the Taunt + Trend stacks.

[@Ionic_Glace]

​@@madladdie7069 if only PMC can actually sustain. their shield become non-existence the very moment you start taking more than 3 hits (assuming 2 out of 3 were ST attacks) we low-key need a preservation unit that can reliably apply taunt while having a good amount of shield to deal with the AoE and/or Bounce Attacks.

[@Daimon-ls6no]

DoT is considered a debuff and debuffs r the speciality of nihility ( I mean even acheron needs debuffs ) so that's why ppl associate dot with nihility follow up attacks don't align with any path they are a separate type of attack ( same as basic atks skills and ultimates )

[@madladdie7069]

@@Ionic_Glace If Preservation TB had a counter, it would be nice even if it's DMG was shite as long as it gave more shield.

[@Ionic_Glace]

@@madladdie7069 true, Preservation MC feels like a 4☆ more than a 5☆ like their Harmony counterpart (then come Fugue and we will see) Either give them a better shield or a stronger Taunt (last longer and could inflict taunt to incoming enemies) so they can actually sustain without losing Skillpoint too fast. Yes you can regenerate shield via Basic and Ult, but only Skill give you the taunt and DMG reduction.

[@0shadowstar0]

I tried to understand nihility, but I realize it pointless and futile endeavor

[@IvenHor123]

@@0shadowstar0 Nihility class are just negative effect applier. They do damage while applying more negative effect on the opponents as many as possible. Compare to other classes that can apply negative effects to them. They can apply 2 times or more. The best example I can give is Lingsha and Black Swan where the former applies one negative effect from her ultthat boost break damage, while the ladder can applies DoT(Arcana) that increase damage base of each stack from other DoT and ignores def, def shreds from her skill, and "Epiphany" from her ult where her "Arcana" stack won't reset.

[@anshtalele1547]

the fact that that is what nihility is

[@IvenHor123]

@anshtalele1547 it is, the problem with people confuse about Nihility is that they can't tell debuffs and DoT are separate entities but in actuality is that they are both in the same category of negative effects. It's just that one damage, one is stat reduction and one is damage amplifier on the enemies.

[@sentibird123]

​​@@IvenHor123I don't think you understand that the og comment was making a reference."Nihility" is the path that goes everything is pointless and meaningless

[@IvenHor123]

@@sentibird123 I thought it was about their gameplay roles.

[@qihaku]

8:36 Sampo being forgotten here is kinda funny since you mentioned him in an earlier part of the vid (1:10). Good video. I agree that hoyo needs to carve out the niche a bit more before adding a "broken support". They messed up with Kafka anyways. They have to worry about her proc-ing DOT so every unit has to be half as underpowered as they could've been.

[@fl2ur]

I intended that bit at 8:36 to be in reference to "37 new units but only 4 new dots" that I mentioned earlier in the video, but now that you've pointed it out I definitely see that it reads a bit poorly - I'll keep that in mind for future videos! Appreciate the comment 🙏

[@IvenHor123]

I think nihility is consider a sub-dps class that applies negative effect. They can be debuffer or Dot. As long they can apply negative effect, they are Nihility. They are not just debuffer, no just a DoT, or DPS. They are negative applier. They can be any of those three. Simple as that.

[@sab3rmusic]

acheron applies death as her negative effect xdd

[@IvenHor123]

@@sab3rmusic to be fair, Acheron is consider a true DPS in the nihility class. She a hyper carry that function as a "negative amplifier", where she applies "Crimson Knot" by herself or her allies' negative effect to an opponent to boost her ultimate damage and give her resistance penetration.

[@seongjaeoh8742]

​@@sab3rmusicshe is nihility to promote the usage of passives involving the use of multiple characters of the same path in one team (such as in her sig planar) and to enable her to have a larger selection of light cones with debuff application, since she has no debuff application outside of ult (aside from her skill that adds crimson knot to the target and adds to slashed dream stacks but doesn't trigger her talent). She's nihility to make up for a weakness that would arise if she didn't have access to nihility light cones, and I feel like it sucks that the same design mentality didn't apply for fu xuan who is an hp scaling preservation unit in a world where her sig is the only hp increasing preservation light cone.

[@Overlyopinionated-wl8jq]

Why play those when there are main dps that also apply debuffs lol. That’s his point. Nihility has literally nothing going for it

[@shutup1037]

I think they maintain their identity pretty well, putting debuff. It's just stupid how stupidly busted Harmony is with crit damage increase, crir rate increase, attack and damage increase, action advance forward. If that enough, character like Robin can be sub dps as her own. Nihility debuffer characters can only do one thing while Harmony do everything in just one character

[@mehdiperrel4941]

DoTs deal damage through debuffs Acheron NEEDS debuffs to function Pela, etc amplify damage through debuffs I don't understand how the indentity is unclear lmao

[@insertnamehere1398]

tbf acheron is weird cuz she just functions as a nihility reliant erudtion unit ahe has the exact same fundamental

[@lillyie]

what the video meant is nihility is all over the place. you got destruction, erudition and hunt and it's clear on what they do(deal damage), preservation and abundance protect the team, harmony buffs the team meanwhile nihility has dps(kafka, swan, guinaifen, sampo, luka), debuffers that act basically like harmonies in ways that they help the team(jiaoqiu, welt, pela) then there's acheron that's only technically nihility because she applies crimson knot which is a debuff, then there's the upcoming fugue, which is basically a fucking harmony character with how her skill literally provides an ally better weakness breaking and break effect, but she's nihility!

[@Leon_85632]

Pela, welt etc AMPLIFY damage while DoT DEALS dmg, there's a fundamental difference between the two, which means that DoTs isn't actually a 'true' debuff, bcs its just another means of dealing dmg outside of the character's turn (like follow up) Then there's Acheron which basically is just an erudition character dubbed as a nihility. Saying acheron is nihility just bcs she needs debuffs makes no sense Dr. Ratio needs debuff to proc his FuA but that doesn't make him a nihility. Hell, even wind dan heng gives slow debuff with his skill and deals more dmg to slowed enemies yet that fact alone doesn't make him a nihility bcs his main role is to deal damage, not to give debuffs

[@Tirxzie]

​@@lillyieFugue is such a bad example for this and im tired of ppl calling her harmony,using your logic march 7th is also a harmony character bcs she buffs allies with her skill

[@Stupid-yn8tl]

​@@lillyieHarmony is the opposite of Nihility. Harmony buffs allies. Nihility debuffs enemies. It's really not complicated. It's just that a multitude of things fall under the debuff umbrella (damage over time, stat reduction, marks, etc)

[@RexellentRed]

Nihility is a perfectly designed path if you look at it from the perspective of what Nihility is established to be in-game; the all consuming void that nothing can escape. Making it a generic catch-all class actually makes perfect sense in that context, because the Nihility will literally "catch all" in its wake.

[@typh2630]

It makes perfect sense thematically, but like… we can’t act like it’s still not frustrating gameplay wise.

[@RexellentRed]

@@typh2630 I think this kind of thing was always bound to happen when you try and put characters into very narrow categories like paths. You either have to stick to that path very rigidly and so characters start to feel samey and inflexible or you give qualities from different paths to all characters at which point the paths feel kind of pointless. I personally think that being more flexible is the better option and leads to a more interesting game state overall, but I can understand the frustration of people who prefer characters to stick closer to their path descriptions.

[@Rebber]

For a live service game, it makes sense Hoyo made Nihility so broad in the first place simply because they want you to spend money on characters to be put in different archetypes, and a good example is just me struggling to clear PF because I lack DoT units despite having plenty of debuffers But I do agree with the notion that Nihility is genuinely lacking right now in terms of other types of things it can do, like there's HUGE potential for a Nihility Sustain similar to Welt Sustain (Slow enemy and atk reduction debuff on enemy, hence they work like preservation, you're only slowing down how fast you die) There's so much room to improve Nihility, and I hope Hoyo starts to experiment more with all the various debuffs, Nihility is the only path that can rival Harmony now

[@lordradiance2530]

Ngl i disagree with this video. For starters, the destruction path is another path extremely confused on its identity. Its counterattacks, its heavy sp consumption, its hp drain, its hp scaling, its whatever the fuck xueyi and misha are trying to do. Its a path solely united by blast damage somewhere in the kit. So clearly confused identity isnt a bad thing. More importantly i dont think dot is getting screwed over just because its part of the nihility path. Its getting screwed over because hoyo doesnt care. We want to make these reasons why hoyo isnt supporting our favorite archetype like “oh nihility is very confused and its hard to balance DOT”, “oh hoyo is neglecting hypercarry because hoyo doesnt want to make too many harmonies too fast.” The reality of it is just that whatever archetype hoyo isnt making right now, its just cause they dont wanna, they would rather do other things. And then maybe hoyo will come back to it. If hoyo wanted to make dot good, they would make dot good overnight. They would give us a new kafka, they would give us a new dot support that massively slows enemies and multiplies dot stacks currently on enemies, they might even give us the fabled “super DOT”, or even new dot types. I also dont think theres this hoyo balancing team that is trying to make sure stuff isnt too op. If they wanted to make game breaking dot support they would. This is the same team that depending on what reruns in 2.7, we get a fua character either made or reran and sometimes both, and the same team who is making a new break support. But i also dont think making “superdot” would break the game the same way break did. And finally, weve seen from jiaoqiu that they are willing to experiment with crossing over archetypes. Its not unrealistic to believe that every new dot character will also be an incredible acheron support. To the point where dotcheron becomes one of the best teams again

[@legayshianimated]

i always thought hunt/destruction/erudition to be different attack patterns, single target/blast/full aoe destruction also has few examples of the other atk patterns, so its like a transitory path i guess

[@snowboundwhale6860]

As far as I see it we already have "Super DoT" and it is Kafka's ability to trigger DoT effects. Super Break doesn't let break crit, it lets you continue inflicting break damage to already weakness broken targets, it's an extension of what break already wants to do that puts the pace of damage output into the hands of players and removes the issue of needing targets to recover from being broken before you can break them again. Likewise Kafka and certain Simulated Universe nihility blessings allow us to make DOTs deal damage on our turns/ at our pace rather than having to wait until the turn of the enemy in question,. Both are giving us means to make these turn dependant damage sources cause damage more frequently and on our own turns, allowing for much more total damage overall. Which means the logical next step for a hypothetical "new meta" dedicated DoT support would be to give a party buff that allows DoT triggers on hit. HMC gives the party the ability to deal super break damage, and with characters like Firefly and Rappa who have in-kit super break this results in them simultaneously dealing 2 distinct instances of super break, so if DoT trigger worked the same way Kafka would still be good on the team but not essential. Alternatively we could take ques from the SU and have an Abundance unit that applies healing when DoTs trigger, or perhaps a Preservation whose shields feed on DoT effects and has some form of retaliation like quake damage/ apply DoT upon a shielded unit being hit. I don't think DoT needs to be just for Nihility or vice versa, but they've been pigeonholed into each other at this point, and looking at some units like Gally/ Lingsha, Nihility seems to have lessened it's grip on more general debuffing as a result. Mr Yang's slow/ imprisonment output is imo cool and fun to play with and a decent example of other things a debuff focused unit can look like. Acheron probably also fits this bill but I haven't played her enough to get a proper feel for her. Nihility is the debuff class so DoT was naturally a part of it, DoTs are just debuffs whose effect is dealing damage at turn start after all, but DoT's become recognised as a distinct thing now which is part of the rift. However just because DoT became a relevant enough playstyle to make people stop considering it as a subgroup of debuffs does not mean Nihility has a lack of identity. Nihility also has connections to Break, most visible in the older SU's blessings before the break effect/ efficiency bonuses were changed to destruction blessings in DU, but also in the upcoming Fugue who I understand is a Nihilty Super Break support. Despite Break being more associated with Harmony now due to Ruan Mei and HMC which has made some people question Fugue being a Break Nihility unit, weakness breaks for the elements that have DoT effects were one of the more reliable ways of applying them for a while, it's not wholly unfitting for the class to play with the mechanic as one leads to the other. Now that being said I'm all for a quantum DoT unit and the fact that quantum entanglement is not considered a DoT despite being a damage dealing debuff that triggers on the start of the enemies' turn has bothered me ever since I found out about it.

[@xenoexe4954]

Its debuff focused, Welt slows people down, Kafka triggers dots, Silver Wolf decreases def, pela decreases def, Sampo makes wind dots stronger, luka triggers Bleed Dots, Guinaifen decreases def and does burn dots, Jiaoqiu makes ults hit harder, Black Swan makes dots hit harder, Acheron nukes through debuffs being applied, hell even Fugue is said to allow break characters to break harder through a debuff status. Seems pretty apparent what they do to me.

[@KraizenFaraway]

Fair point. Nihility class is the only class that is mixed between supporting your team through debuff and different types damage with DOT, Break and HC. If anything, It not caring about it's identity fits the path itself. As for DOT, It's been left in the dust but it had it's time to shine. I'm sure DOT will be back at some point but that time is not now.

[@insertnamehere1398]

In many ways this is good because then there are countless unique nihility concepts to avoid treading old ground for years and years to come

[@tamam987]

This is why it's called nihility bro. Nihiliy path have much more potential i think. Look at nihility god its literally empty black hole.

[@odisleftpaw5663]

I think another solution, albeit an unorthodox one, would be to make dot characters from a different path, since debuffs aren't unique to nihility path maybe the same can apply to dot, perhaps a hunt character that scales their crit dmg with dot or an erudition character that applies dot and makes dot detonate in aoe or adjacent, a healer that applies dot and heals allies whenever enemies take dot (like that simuni blessing)

[@RenkittyRenzo]

The thing is that unlike other paths, Nihility has TWO front(wo)men and is the only paths that is defined by play-style. Comparatively, Hunt has Boothill currently whose whole thing is huge damage to one enemy and can be supported by whoever you want, but Nihility has Kafka AND Acheron who are the drivers for the path; Kafka wants as many dots on the enemy as possible to prematurely detonate them for huge damage and Acheron wants debuffers to make her Ult do crazy damage and lets her use it often. It’s not so much an identity crisis as it is an allowing a different play-style while staying thematic. And leaks suggest that Destruction will similarly be getting a new play-style in upcoming patches.

[@koldaric9676]

Nihility is basically the "Other" or "Miscellaneous" category you see in organized items. Essentially the category where you dump everything that "doesn't fit into the other categories available".

[@Glizzyman]

The problem is nihility really is just "apply debuff", its like huohuo being able to do more then just healing. Characters have to tap into multiple paths otherwise hoyo would loose money and lets be honest, creativity knowing them. I just think DOT needs to be put in other roles aswell, give us an actual DOT support and dot sustain, huo huo is really good but not what aventurine is to follow up if that make sense, and robin is good mainly bc its just robin. Apparently characters with DOT were leaked somewhat for 3.X but we have to wait and see , I just feel bad for DOT mains at this point, atleast there not blade mains

[@lauriee5364]

maybe there’ll be a dot unit on the leaked remembrance path

[@watchwood]

I've been saying for a while that the DoT and enabler debuffs should really have been split into separate paths. Having them have to fight over the same pool of cones is just a hassle..

[@fl2ur]

I didn't even think about lightcones, but that's another point that makes it frustrating, yeah. I actually remember starting out in the game the only 4* nihility cone I was getting was the Sampo one and literally nothing else. I don't think I got my first pearls until around 2.x and that's not even considering GNSW.

[@Flamelance_Accendo]

"Nihility has no identity" "Doesn't make sense" I mean.. that's what Nihility is. lol

[@Flamelance_Accendo]

(I'm joking, I know this is gameplay-wise).

[@redx670]

I think Nihility is perfect as just the debuffer class. However DoT is commonly associated with Nihility however I disagree with it being tied to ONLY Nihility units. Hell characters like Serval, Hook, Asta can apply a DoT so why not expand the DoT roster by adding a hunt, erudition, destruction, harmony, preservation and abundance units that can help the DoT archetype and expand the roster and variety. Its not that Nihility has too much going on. I think the common thing that Nihility does is to hinder enemies with various effects, it doesnt need to be "They take x% more dmg" or "They deal x% less dmg" it just has to hinder the enemies specifically. DoT is somewhat in a way does that since its just "Deals X dmg to the enemies on their turn". Either way no, Nihility DOES make sense as a class of inflicting debuffs onto enemies and DoT is simply a team archetype that is commonly associated with Nihility because of Sampo and Kafka however not limited to Nihility since they can effectively diversify it with other paths since characters like Serval and Hook finds more consistency with DoT.

[@insertnamehere1398]

I just wish non dot dpseses were experimented more cuz acheron functions identical to an erudition unit down to the core fundamentals

[@redx670]

@insertnamehere1398 what do you mean by "non dot DPS"? Isnt that every dps tho aside for Acheron?

[@TOTGodofWar]

Nihility focues on debuffs one way or another. Edit: Mihoyo can't hard focus on d.o.t characters because they only have 4 elements to work with. In context of single or AoE target 2/8 premium slots have already been filled. Likely there will only be one new premium d.o.t character per major patch era.

[@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584]

I mean break has 3 good elements and look how overtuned two of break dps are with firefly just being blatant ridiculous

[@Shirker12]

While DoT is probably my favorite team to use, I genuinely don't know what the best option to help would be. Maybe a SW type of character who can implant any type of DoT that the enemy isn't afflicted with? Or multiply the DoTs already on them and breaking the limit of stacks? I don't know, honestly.

[@fl2ur]

Whatever they do, I just hope that it's more unique than "broken support 123 that you must roll for if you want to play dot"

[@Shirker12]

@@fl2ur Or, you know, stop buffing enemies to an absolutely absurd degree.

[@fl2ur]

@@Shirker12 true!

[@ladyhdwastaken]

In Honkai Impact, there is a Bleed mechanic and some units can increase the amount of bleeding stacks. Swan's arcana and Sampo's wind shear are the only things that can stack beyond 1x without breaking. At that point, the unit is better run as break (IE Gui and Luka, but physical and fire break are just really good tbf). Adding someone who can increase the cap on stacks would be massive for these teams. Look at firefly. Her kit is so mid it's insane, but harmony TB carries her to full potential. DOT needs something like this. DOT isn't even mid, it's just not *the best* (it's still good, btw. Not being top 1 doesn't make you bad)

[@fl2ur]

@@ladyhdwastaken Agreed! Like I said in the video I think dot is *fine* - I just feel the niche hasn't really been developed as much as it should/could be, and that's what's holding it back rather than the individual characters in it.

[@dumbitchstella]

Honesly, I think increasing the cap of DoT should just be an universal game mechanic, no reason to have it locked behind a new character as it would just make the same problem as break reliance on HTB.

[@fl2ur]

@@dumbitchstella Genshin is getting a modifier change to some of the underutilized reactions next patch after 4 years of them being bad, so maybe we just cope they do something similar for Dot lmao

[@takendruid]

As someone who hadn't properly played since about 1.5, I honestly didn't realise that Nihility was turning into DoT path since I owned Silver Wolf, and wanted Welt.

[@2k3d]

"Nihility has no identity" that's the point😂😂nihility means nothingness

[@arterplaysmelodica]

>checks the enemy stat screen >burn, bleed, wind shear, and shock is listed in the debuff list >mfw DoTs are debuff, therefore, it's in line with nihility's purpose 😮🤯

[@chubs2073]

Thats not the point tho? The point is that having debuffers and DoT in the same path means they need to compete with the amout of available characters. Hoyo dosent want to release double the amoutj of nihility characters compared to other paths wich means debuffers and DoT characters have half the amoutj of future characters to work with since they need to costantly share with one another

[@Vailsiren]

depends on how you classify a "debuff" the in game description for Nihility even specifically says: "Applies Debuffs to enemies to reduce their combat capabilities" damage by it's self is not a debuff as no combat capability of the enemy has been reduced, and if the "debuff"'s only purpose/effect is dealing damage. I think it's fair to say it's not a debuff. Now I understand the game's mechanics considers them debuffs for very reasons, but in spirit of the definition, they are not. Same way that Hanya's Burden isn't a debuff, despite acting more in line with what a debuff would do. same reason that character's like Acheron shouldn't be seen as debuffers, they're just a damage dealer. Remember the only real "debuff" she inflicts is during her ultimate and it is removed when her ultimate finishes.

[@shadow-faye]

Dying reduces your combat capabilities ​@@Vailsiren

[@Vailsiren]

@@shadow-faye then hunt, erudition, and destruction are currently better debuffers then Nihility is by that logic

[@polarroars68]

atleast nihility has an identity of doing dmg through debuffs destruction over here has counter attacks, hp loss, and break as part its path and while you can argue hp loss and counter attacks are close enough break makes no sense to be in the path in the sim uni

[@andris404]

It's very fitting for Nilility to not have an identity because that's what nihilism is about

[@shinyskitty]

Makes me wish we could sorta go back and rework how paths are at their core. Like Roles as an official thing AND Path maybe? So you could have - STRIKER role (Deal Damage) - HELPER role (Apply Buffs) - SUBTERFUGE role (Apply Debuffs) - DEFENDER role (Increase survivability) And THATS where the separate light cones and stuff are split (which is why it’s an important distinction past what the game has now). Then within that we have the “path” which is less light-cone and buff limiting, and more about informing the player to their niche. So for example: Striker characters can either be: - Hunt (single target) - Erudition (multiple target) - Destruction (blast w/HP loss) but ALSO stuff like - Elation (follow up attacks) - Enigmata (DOT) And characters of different roles can all follow the same path-so Kafka would be Striker-Enigmata but Black Swan would be Subterfuge-Enigmata. And you can do all sorts of stuff with that distinction-like Acheron requiring the team to be full Enigmata rather than full Nihility(in this case “subterfuge”) or even limit certain gears or Simulated universe buffs this way. This also allows Hoyo to more easily add new niches (like summons) without exploding the whole lightcone system and causing a bunch of knock-on effects. It also-also means we can have multiple versions or paths for the same unit (ex. Jiao which you mentioned straddles two archetypes having two ‘forms’ Subterfuge-Enigmata for DOT and Subterfuge-Nihility for the ult damage debuff. Uses the same lightcones, and even the same status, just focusing on different things. It solves character bloat by splitting the options up and still allows for niches and strategy. … You know what it took me this long to realize I’m just describing skill trees. Please let there be literal “paths” in the form of skill trees. It solves SO many issues. For example it allows: - infinite adding of new “tree-paths” (like the new remembrance) without impacting old systems (like light cones). - new forms of the same character via adding an entire new tree path to them - minor buffs/balance passes to old characters via new tree paths - keeps the identity of the paths clear (ex. Hunt characters that apply debuffs must have taken the ‘Nihility tree path upgrade’ to access that buff (otherwise they don’t have it) - helps mitigate character bloat by splitting the different pieces of the kit into neat seperate packages Plus it sorta fits the existing systems of the game (being similar to the trace system.) Idk what do you guys think? Kinda a messy suggestion but addresses a lot of things. But your ideas for cool new DOT-related characters are awesome

[@keve5534]

To buff it I'd add quantum and ice to the DoT list so now those can benefit from the DoT support and add new debuff options. Going forward every nihility character has a DoT that benefits their main debuff. So a Pela would have a DoT that either defense lowers or buff strips when proc'd. A dedicated DoT unit will have a way to pop their debuffs and breaking a unit would now proc it's DoTs.

[@masterplusmargarita]

The biggest problem with the idea of a DoT path and moving existing DoT units out of Nihility into it is Acheron with her Nihility teammate requirement. While running DoT units with her isn't necessarily the most common it does happen (I've been doing well with an Acheron/Kafka/Swan team recently), and it would be really crappy of them to incentivize pulling units to work with Acheron and then hard deleting that functionality. I guess they could change Acheron's passive work with Nihility or DoT units but it'd be inelegant and out of flavour.

[@Mixtrelle]

the problem with dot only happens during end game content where you have to finish quick. they can either make dot damage increase exponentially over time or all dots infinitely stackable. there's already characters who can do 300k+ damage every turn so there's no need to hesitate with damage that only happens when enemy moves

[@takendruid]

6:36 ah yes, the Triforce of damage over time

[@fl2ur]

I needed another symbol and that's what came to mind 😂

[@OlexiVR]

The answer is trivial: they are all damage dealers that work through debuffs. It´s just funny how you divide Dot (damage over time) and Damage (what, per screenshot?) into different cuttegories. when they are both the same, just the ways damage is dealt are different. The same way as Topaz is hunt but more on support side, there are dubuffers that deal more or less damage giving more support to other units. But all of them debuf and work through debuffs. Even acheron works that way, just more on the offensive side. It´s interesting to see how you think some of the capabilities of the units are locked behind their eidolons. Dah. Pretty much any unit with their eidolons aither goes very deep into their main role (like Sunday giving even more buffs) or gets damage/support roles which weren't there to begin with (Aventurine, Fu Xuan, Robin etc). Jiaqiao is a debuffer with some DoT possibilities. and even without his E2, he's better than Guinaffen. How if she has better multipliers? Well, simple: he is very consistent and doesn't need any effort to apply it to every enemy. Guinaffen can apply burn to 3 enemies at once, with a change to fail. He needs to use ultimate once to deal it constantly to everyone. With higher attack stat as 5* he is, it´s much better. Although he gives 15% ultimate damage bonus (which is tailored for erudition mostly, or Acheron), everything else in his kit helps his DoT. Moreover, if you get his E2, he can with no SP usage deal 50-90k damage to every enemy constantly. we alreade have units that share traits of different paths. Like Huo Huo, or Aventurine being sustainers and buffers. But "why would you take a nihility unit if a hunt unit can apply debuffs, too"? Because nihilities are created for that and do that more effective, and normally, against the whole team. Even Silver Wolf has bugs that she implements wherever an enemy is broken, just no one uses her with breaking teams. And with everything said, nihility seems like the path that helps mass debuffing the enemies. If you're ok with only one specific debuffer for your one DD, well, good we have such units to suit your needs

[@milosantos28]

When Acheron released, I was confused why we got a DPS from Nihility but seeing her kit being dependent on debuffs and other Nihility characters, it started to make sense. I then started to wonder if they would release at least one DPS for ALL the paths, even the paths that are typically considered ‘support’ paths. Like maybe a DPS Abundance character that deals damage based on how much healing is done to the team, or a character that drains the enemies’ HP to heal the team while killing the enemies (I would love a character with a mechanic that would make sense in the context of being an “abomination” of Yaoshi, that is the source of damage for enemies and not just a healer for the team). Or a DPS Harmony character much like Robin who can passively deal damage, but this time this new Harmony DPS will actively deals damage and is the main source of damage for the team. We already have Aventurine for Preservation who deals a decent amount of damage, it won’t be hard to make another character for Preservation but make it DPS. With that said, I don’t think Nihility is confused or lacks identity. I like to think of it as flexible and has a lot of variety. All the Nihility characters are still tied to “debuff” so in that sense, that’s what holds the path together. If they do expand other paths to also have DPS of their own, like their own version of Acheron, that might be a good thing because that means there would be more variety with character kits and playstyle and each character release will be their own unique thing and avoid being repetitive. As HSR grows and more characters release, I think other paths being as flexible as Nihility is would be a great thing.

[@ganoloth1929]

the thing about dot is that, whatever they put a dot unit, whether it was a buffer for dot or another dot damage unit makes kafka alway relevant due to the nature of her skill. popping of accumulated dot one more time on the top of her basic skill damage this is also can be said to her ult popping another dot. that is why, she'll always be strong as a dot unit which make her kinda hard top atleast they do a really strong dps which makes acheron come to light as a nihility dps

[@thomasnguyen4427]

Destruction has: BASIC atk, Blast, HP drain/conversion, Counter, And the Sole SP Gobbler. Then we have Misha. Misha is the first added A-rank ro use the new trace material, followed by Gallagher and then Moze.

[@ToothpickSamurai]

Nihility gives the impression that at one point in time they were going to have another path in dedication to either DoT or Debuffs and they decided to scrap it and lump them together for release. It does bring up the question though, given we are likely getting new paths in the future, what a DoT based path would have been or perhaps the other path was for Debuffs, we will never know. Also I think DoT is just bad right now cause we are in a heavy Super Break Meta with a splash of FUA, so everything right now is either Break or FUA oriented but then when we go to the new planet maybe they go super ham on DoT as the primary source of DPS and Break ends up falling off for a time.

[@FlyingNinjaish]

I'm not sure if having Nihility really focus on DoT is the best way to fix it. In a game where everything at a high level is built around being essentially a time attack mode, returning to a focus on defbuffs that don't require "spending" AV in order to function at all seems like a better fit for the nature of what the game is. People fixate on the Kafka-DOT team, but I'm not sure that team/DoT should be taken to be equivalent to a whole Path.

[@MrVoldross]

DoTs are a type of debuff, every single nihility character operates either through inflicting debuffs or using them to deal damage. This path is one of the clearest of the bunch honestly. Many of the characters have the versatility to either be a support, sub DPS or DPS. I have to disagree with your assessment because it seems like it's limited to what you would prefer it to be rather than what it clearly has been from day 1.

[@ryuk6795]

Fun fact :-if you use fugue skill on a linsgha or adventurine then their fua and badic attk also generate stack for acheron ult

[@resy-t9382]

The specialized role of Nihility path is the focused inflicting aliments (negative conditions) on your enemies. In Game they state "Nihility applies debuffs to enemies to reduce their combat capacities.". As others have mentioned characters in the Nihility path aren't just about dot. We see characters in this path doing more for your teams than just dot FROM 1.0 w/characters such as Pela a dedicated debuffer support and Welt a non dot DPS that deal extra dmg to slowed/weakness Broken enemies while having debuffer utility. The only dot focused Nihility in 1.0 was Sampo. Even looking at the kits Guinaifen and lukka both are 4* dot Nihility characters who aren't just used for their dot dmg. Guinaifen inflicts dmg vulnerability when enemies take any burn dot dmg. Lukka is a single target dps with bleed dot/break dmg w/extra debuffer utility. Black Swain for all the Dot Dmg she Deals, still more than a dot character with the def reduction on skill and the ult debuff that gives ENEMIES dmg vulnerability DURING THEIR TURN which can taken advantage of outside of dot since many BOSS TAKE MULTIPLE ACTIONS. Kafka is the only other Nihility Dot character that is focused on dot.

[@احمدعناية-ص6ح]

Personally, I would prefer to transform the dot specialty itself into something more creative, so that it is used in the way we know it as a team based on the dot character only, but also makes their use with other teams and mechanics logical, useful and fun. The solution to this is to steal the star rail that distinguishes Genshin Impact the most, which is the interactions between elements... Here, the mechanism will be purely exclusive to two mechanisms in the game, which are the dot and the break, because they are originally linked to each other, and this may work in a distinctive way to make the dot from different elements that interact with each other for certain effects. This will also exploit the break of the imaginary and quantum to interact differently with the rest, and thinking about this requires time to build an integrated system from it, but I have already talked a lot about it.

[@Puddskye.]

I love when we all thought that HSR was THE GOOD GAME we've been waiting for that fixed up on all of Genshin's faults, but now, it just proves to serve more and more powercreep while not caring much about past issues (characters like Luka and Arlan needing buffs like JY does, Nihility being neglected, Preservation characters being insanely strong right off the bat after barely fiddling with tanking mechanics, etc)....

[@albr6513]

I feel like the beetle path in hsr would work cause the simulated universe you can cause spores on the enemy, which is kind of like dot

[@Fahrenheart]

As of patch 2.6, I'm fairly certain Nihility's identity is "Works with Acheron" and "Works with Kafka" and literally nothing else.

[@anthonyye8629]

For a DoT support, I want his main gimmick is to extend dot duration because with how fast enemy start to become the dot disappear too fast.

[@wolfhackzx]

Releasing this video the moment Hoyo decided to release a DoT focused Pure Fiction was probably a bad omen.

[@zeroisnine]

"Nihility has no identity." Exactly

[@jonathandejesusrodriguezbr8230]

I also think that the solution for dot is making other path be also dot, like a hunt dot unit that can ATK supper fast and stack too much dots that the enemies dies from one big nuke for the dot instead of the chance nuking them with Fua or ultimate, we have units in 1.0 that besides not being dot unit work around them, like serval and hook, even asta

[@drantino]

the biggest thing ive noticed on why dots dont work varly well in HSR is the dmg it self is tied to ether how fast a enemy can take a turn or triggering it otherwise like kafka. things like breaking a enemy fundamentally work agiesnt dot dmg actually being decent because of its pushback outside of chars like kafka being able to seprately triggering it. it makes it even more a scale worse because the majority of late game modes are time based clearing. sampo requires E4 only on sheer, and luka E6 only on bleed and requires a secondary resource, well kafka literally is the only one that triggers all types to make the damage at least sumwhat consistent. the only thing i can think of to actually bring dot upto a resonable level is doing something that makes it interact with HSRs timeline on a much more hard base level since DoTs are damage that happens over time. theyve actually fiddled with this idea of ether getting dots to trigger more with i think one of the pure fictions form a few patches ago on a enemy advancing faster for every hit they take. which is one way to go about it, but i dont find that healthy, especially since we dont got any manual way to increase the frequency a enemy takes a turn on our side outside of mode specific ways. one idea i thought of is first track how long a DoT has bin on a enemy in terms of the timeline. for how long that DoT has bin on the timeline at minimum of what our current DoT rates are. the speed value that a enemy takes of their current speed(will not go lower then their base speed) will be that enemys minimum at the start of that turn for calcing dmg. if the DoT has bin on that enemy longer then thier speed calc would be indicate that min threshold, increase the dmg proportionally to that difference. that difference could also be expenentionly increasing, like 4x dmg if delayed by 2x the range. a example of this is if a enemy had 10k DoT on a enemy, if welt used his ult at lvl 10, it could increase that DoTs dmg by at least 40%(theres a speed debuff so it would actually be a bit more then 40% and why base speed would cap the min instead of extreamly slow current speed), so when that enemy takes their turn finally, welt let that any DoTs that exist on that enemy increase by a good chunk despite delaying it more and more, but allowing DoT dmg to stay consistent. this would also let breaking be slightly stronger because of its inherent delay effect. and in the other funny instance of a enemy getting that makes them 4x faster, but because of when it was applyed and how this new way of calcing DoTs would be it could get upto that 4x dmg on proper timing, or more on stacking that with welts delay that would probably base off base speed.

[@ivurisu6262]

I don't Kafka is what's holding dot back, it's just that after black swan no other dot unit has been released and bs is very backloaded (arcana stacking takes too long and enemies are getting way too fast) which doesn't help the niche at all. The way I think they'll fix this is implementing what they've been doing in past events in a new character, high sources of damage triggering whenever a dot deals dmg or is being applied, kinda like a fua. Kafka if anything is a piece of the puzzle and she just needs new partners who she can enable to make dot more frontloaded.

[@fl2ur]

When I said kafka is holding dot back, I mean in the sense of "she's the only one that can trigger all other dots", similar to SB being enabled with the HMC(though that's changing soon). Kafka's definitely a piece of the puzzle, and that's kinda what I was going for at the end of the video when I was talking about how a broken support isn't what dot needs, it's other units that also deal dot that do different things. Imagine a team of kafka, Black Swan, and then a new dot character doing something like what you mentioned with the older events. Would be neat!

[@kennethyoung7457]

Black Swan Arcana should not go back to one on the enemy turn thats bad design when the DOT only has 240% atk multiplier at one stack and thats her main dmg source. Jiaoqiu DOT that stays on the enemy at max stacks all the time and when new enemies enter they also get maximum stacks should be how DOT is done but obviously with way higher multipliers.

[@ivurisu6262]

I kinda see her as childe from genshin, an enabler who deals modest dmg herself who makes another dps truly shine. Her multipliers don't matter as long as she is speedy and triggering dots left and right. I can also see a 4 man dps comp with Kafka, Black swan, Dps enabled by Kafka and buffed by BS, lastly some type of sustainer for the niche who can dps (It doesn't seem that relevant but it really is. The other niches have Aventurine, Gallagher, Lingsha and Huohuo. Especially Aventurine has show how important it is for a sustain to deal some significant type of damage and in turn buffing and make the team trigger more Fuas. The same exact thing should be done for Dot.) In a few words dot teams are straight up incomplete unlike break and fua, imo it's not the niche itself the problem.

[@ivurisu6262]

@@kennethyoung7457 yeah.. if only they gave e2 jiaoqiu in his base kit it would have pushed dot up again, but they could still do that with another character dot dps

[@ivurisu6262]

@@fl2ur Yeah! Sorry I get it now! Kafka alone can't really do much about the lack of dot characters, hopefully as you said they'll release dot units who can enable the niche in different ways than the current ones. Also yeah I agree with you that a new harmony support wouldn't change the niche itself so the problems would still be there. But seeing how in old/news events and the simulated universe they did explore new possibilities with dot, I truly believe that they're cooking something to update the playstyle in the future!

[@Fycku424]

It combines with the meaning of its path

[@loleaupoki]

I feel like when it comes to nihility we tend to mix up archetype and path. Paths were never meant to be locked to one archetype. Destruction has crit dps, HP manipulation dps, break dps. It’s more like Nihility doesn’t have enough characters that play into meta archetypes, would be nice to have nihility characters that are alternatives to harmony characters in some niche such as follow up or super break

[@sakuseihuoshen]

I'm pretty sure it's because there are so many different ways to debuff, DoT is in a sense another type of debuff in which getting their turn is akin to getting damaged… I'd say Silver Wolf is the best symbol for the Nihility path. Now then, let's talk about a new path. Pretty sure Sunday is a hint at that new path, so I don't think a path related to DoTs will be here soon unless we get Finality or Elation as the next path(spoiler: Most likely not gonna happen, chances are; It's Remembrance next since we are going to Amphoreus right?)

[@giaphucnguyenphan]

i think a pattern here so hear me out the stellaron hunter are a wild card , IPC are follow up attack ,galaxy rangers are breaker , so maybe memokeeper like black swan are dot dealer and mister reca kit is a dot damage

[@lamantdapollon]

I think they shouldn't make a separate path but, they should give other paths characters that has DoT, like Break we have Boothill, Firefly, Rappa all of them are different paths. Back in the days Sampo wasn't the only DoT cause i remember very well people playing DoT teams with Serval and Hook alongside Sampo.

[@jerryvee3968]

Nihility is seeing no meaning in the world. Hence why all its characters either degrade or diminish the worth of the target they plan to delete. (Debuffs) The damage-over-time mechanic (DoT) is just another translation of that. Not necessarily removing all meaning and worth but having it slowly chip away at the enemy until they realize resistance is futile and they accept the cold reality of nothingness.

[@maggot848]

Dot is also a type of debuff though? The only outlier is acheron, but it does make sense as she's the emenator

[@NiaTheMilkTank]

Im gonna say it Nihility DOES have an identity its just yall are HYPER FOCUSED on DoT and ignoring thats just a subcategory of DEBUFFS which is what the identity is.

[@yuuki4803]

Nihility is an Archetype based around debuffs. Thats all they have. Dot is inherently a debuff as its like poison which is Nihility's theme. But Unlike harmony who is around supporting, they wont have skills to targets allies, so their kit is always going to have a dmg aspect to it (via skill and ultimate) Despite gui being a dot unit she still gives a universal Vuln, same with welt and same with luka. Acheron also debuffs enemies to do what she needs to do but her case is sort of lore reasons and balancing reasons, otherwise she'd be Erudition. Also the reason dot isnt doing well is simply due to the kits of the units. Most people would blame Kafka who can only detonate one target for 70% of the dot dmg per skill but you have to point out blackswan who wont allow kafka detonate the full power of her Arcana and her stacks RESET. If Kafka could detonate all enemies her by skill and do it with higher numbers like 120% of the original dmg, we wouldnt be having this discussion. This just points to the 2.0 Duo and 1.X characters being a result of Hyv trying to be like genshin where things werent nutty. so really its a kit issue and not a path issue

[@sayaineclipze4858]

I’m saving for that DoT healer that’s coming out very soon

[@saljr6131]

Nihility Trail blazer for superDOT. Problem solved

[@rxincandy_V]

DoT is a debuff, stat reductions are debuffs and acheron applies a "debuff" on the enemy and needs to stack them to enable dps. it still has an identity revolving around debuffs, be it vulnerability or damage, and the fact other units can also apply them is good because locking them away to a specialty class would just be stupid. i'm a day 1 nihility main and do not understand the argument that it lacks identity especially considering destruction exists

[@jonathandejesusrodriguezbr8230]

Nihility identity is negative status and being un specialized in one thing, having a meaningless identity is the identity of nihility in the game

[@aomafura3374]

Nihility’s Identity has always been the 2-step DPS. Apply your setup, go ham. This makes them good because they essentially are 1/3rd DPS 1/4th Buffer But 2 1/4 buffer + 1 Harmony doesnt match the power of 2 Harmony. What Nihility needs most is an Abundance/Preservation with offensive buffs dedicated to debuffers to make up for the Buffing disadvantage. A defensive support with 1/2 offensive power as Harmony.

[@puresign683]

I think a dot unit that action advances or increases speed of enemies would be good. More turns in a single cycle means more damage. However, To weaken the downsides they could apply a debuff that makes enemies deal less damage and take increased damage to dots or give crit dots that don't allow kafka to crit with. This unit would allow for a passive and defensive playstyle for dot albeit boring for some. Also it would be perfect if we had a dot related abundance unit or preservation unit to make this sustainable as hoolay with action advance or increased speed is death.

[@puresign683]

2/2 after writing this I realized I look insane. I don't think you would be able to apply enough dots for this to work. It's quite literally unsustainable with current dot units.

[@HSantrie]

@@puresign683 Maybe someone that could apply a DoT FuA-like? their kit consist in applying a Debuff and Dot, after every ally turn, they make Enemies Dot Activate, and the dots dont get eliminate until enemies turn, Their Ult could just be a Huge debuff that could make the next time this FuA Dot activates gives to all Dots the chance to do Crit or hit Twice.

[@Grayewicked]

I know it's the easiest answer but, I don't really think it matters, and that's sort of the poetic beauty of it. At least they're not like the Preservation that's pretty much pigeonholed into either shielding (90% of the time, which is why I think we still haven't gotten a new Preservation unit again) or some form of damage mitigation, or even more so like the Abundance that only focuses on healing with/without extra steps or some sort of flavor. Even if the case for Nihility seems to be that they're "all over the place", I still think their gimmicks, as varied as they are, are still pretty congruent to the Path, given that their specialty are debuffs in general. DoTs are their offensive gimmick but still in the form of a debuff, and Acheron is a great answer to the question of "how do you design a hypercarry within a Path that specializes on either indirect (for the most part) ways of dealing damage or helping others deal more damage instead?". Even if Acheron is a hypercarry, she still works within the conditions where Nihility units are most comfortable with, irrespective of whether she's with pure Debuffers or DoT specialists. If we're going to be completely honest, the only thing Nihility as a Path needs is a DoT amplifier with the correct Type (Fire or Physical, still salty about the fact that this could've been Jiaoqiu), and it's just a bonus if this unit can also heal.

[@fl2ur]

It would certainly be interesting if they released a healer outside of the Abundance path, I guess if it was a smaller amount, kinda like a chip heal, it would be kinda neat.

[@Romashka_Sov]

"Sure, we might still get units of that type slowly, but it would be a lot harder to ignore an entire path built around one mechanic, than a path with super generic, like the current iteration of Nihility" I find it ironic that on the footage you show a character of a certain path that had twice as less new characters after 1.0 than dot characters

[@mismagia]

I think DoT being the DPS method for Nihility was intended and they fucked it up by making Acheron a Crit Ultimate centric dps which is more in line with the Erudition than the Nihility Black Swan should have been acherons best in slot support instead of a dps who loses all her supports to acheron I still would really like to see a full lightning/fire/wind/phys dot team in the future that provides its own sustain, buffing and dps

[@nicaise4402]

DOT is also a debuff tho, so the path is still all about debuffing... acheron is the exception because she is the emanator of nihility and makes use of other nihility characters inside of her team.

[@IrvineKinneas8882]

i would prefer a harmony dot character, or just, a second ruan mei, just so i can slide my original ruan mei freely between break and dot teams

[@OsmanthusWineZhongli]

thanks Nihility for making me rub one out. I guess that is your identity.

[@wadi1989]

DoT is a Debuff. The only exception to the Nihility role is Acheron, and even she has to apply her "debuff" to get ult stacks.

[@Goblinhandler]

It’s not a traditional debuff, it’s just damage

[@wadi1989]

@Goblinhandler explain "traditional debuff" because in every turn based game there is such a thing as a Damage over time being a debuff and if we're not talking about comparing with the traditional games in the genre and only in HSR, DoT has been a thing since launch but just in a very limited way (Sampo and break debuffs) so no infact I think DoT fits exactly in the Debuff niche, and that's what it looks like the devs think as well

[@Goblinhandler]

@ damage over time is usually a secondary effect, not a debuff A buff and debuff involves stat changes

[@cryophoenix6114]

Let's just go through all the nihility characters. 4 Stars: Sampo: Deals wind DoT. DoT is a debuff. Pretty much all there is to it. Pela: Has ice res shred and def shred. Both are debuffs. Luka: Does bleed DoT and vulnerability. Again, both debuffs. Guinaifen: Fire DoT and vulnerability. 5 stars: Welt: Is a debuff DPS/pseudo sustain because of his slow debuff. His slow mechanic is core to him, so makes sense. Silver Wolf: Implants different weaknesses as well as atk, def, and spd debuffs. She's the definition of nihility. Kafka: Has her own lightning DoT and can also trigger DoTs. Black Swan: Has wind DoT, def shred, and DoT vulnerability. Acheron: Here's one of the two outliers here. Even though she's dependent on debuffs, she herself doesn't really have a focus on them. She does have debuffs, but only she can benefit from them. It's not like Welt, who's also a DPS but his debuffs don't only affect him. She's similar to Ratio because both of them need debuffs to deal dmg. But he's hunt while she's nihility. She's only nihility for sake of the lore. Jiaoqiu: Has Fire DoT, vulnerability, and ult vulnerability. Nothing else to see here. Your expected nihility character. Fugue: The other outlier. Not as much as acheron, because her debuff does benefit the team. The main issue is that without that one debuff she provides, she's basically a harmony character. Her exo-toughness could be considered a "debuff" I suppose if we're only looking at definition, but in game, of course it wouldn't be considered one. It's just a mechanic. She even buffs an ally for them to ignore weakness type and even buffs break effect too. Her E1 is literally just Ruan Mei's skill. Her E2 is DDD. Her E4 buffs the ally's break dmg. Her E6 gives everyone in the party the same buffs as the targeted ally. None of this scream nihility. The only reason she's not harmony is 1. Sunday is already Harmony, and 2. so they call sell that E2 and won't be able to put DDD on her. I don't think nihility has an identity crisis. They just love bending the rules when it comes to paths in general. Lingsha is abundance but she has more AoE than Himeko, who's erudition. The IPC characters are all about being hybrid units surrounding fua, and that will likely be the case for all Stonehearts. Topaz is a fua hunt unit who also is a debuffer with her fua vulnerability. Mix of hunt and nihility. Aventurine is a fua preservation unit who also is meant to be a sub-dps. Mix of preservation and just dmg in general. Fua is like erudition and ultimate/basic is like hunt. Jade is a fua erudition unit who also buffs an ally's spd. Mix of erudition and harmony. Same goes for hunt March, her skill also buffs an ally's spd and she can increase their cdmg and break effect. Moze is a hunt unit who also provides 2 debuffs in his base kit, making him a 4 star Topaz with a mix of hunt and nihility.

[@insertnamehere1398]

fugue has a minor infraction in the sense her skill targets a party member to apply drbuffs for her but I can begrudgingly look past that since most of her kit is a perfect debuffer..... Acheron is legit just erudition tho

[@ineedmorecarrots6063]

nihility's identity is they can be whatever. DoT,hypercarry,debuffer,damage amplifier

[@Phantom-z9y]

Nihility can be anything because of their aeon IX is a black hole with infinite possibilities.

[@arcanacoltic971]

I read the title and though. Well damn, they did a great job with it then.

[@scyi.3665]

Funny that gameplay paths aren't necessarily the path the character follows in lore but they felt the need to put Acheron in Nihility when she's so similar to Argenti, an Erudition character. And we have characters that can inflict a debuff without being Nihility too

[@Goblinhandler]

It was so they could control what LCs she gets How do they keep Acheron from getting too strong? Just don’t release another 5* LC for her lol

[@toxicabyzz]

Way back at the start of the game dots was required to help get past some of the story bosses, like that dude that kept locking your characters up

[@fl2ur]

I still remember clearing Svarog in early sim universe with Nihility sampo, felt really unique at the time because he was the only one that really took advantage of the path.

[@insertnamehere1398]

nihility doesn't lack identity, its just that debugging is so broad and can be executed so many different ways that it sticks out from every other more straightforward path.... Acheron however is an exception and the only one. She plays and functions identical to an erudition character with basically no real debuffs but just wants other debuffers to charge her ult. Still a fun char tho and I wishnhoyo got more experimental with the class and really tried to make a proper nihility dps that actually has and utilizes their own debuffs unlike acheron but also isn't just another dot unit as much as I love dot

[@insertnamehere1398]

ALSO HOLY SHIT DOT IS A DEBUFF DEAR GOD ARE U CRAZY?!??

[@Overlyopinionated-wl8jq]

I think so many ppl here missed your point lol. When non-nihility paths get debuffs, it doesn’t matter if “dots are debuffs.” The point is nihility isn’t the de facto debuffer anymore. Ergo, nihility HAS to be the “dot path” bc there is nothing else left for it to be lmao. And to that end, dots are just not potent enough, and Kafka needs to be moved to a standard banner for those who do want a dot team. Also, I do agree fights are “fast” and don’t always reward a slow burn, but they could rectify that but introducing not only new content that does reward dot gameplay (much like they did with TF and Erudition), but they could also introduce characters with mechanics that help. Like a contagion effect, the spore effect that passes to new enemies as they come in waves etc. Hoyo is very creative. They could do it if they wanted lol. The problem is traditionalists arguing dots aren’t needed bc “dots aren’t needed.” Well yeah… we are talking about revamping for a reason lol. No one thought super break was gonna be a thing… till it was.

[@Abcxyz-ey9nn]

dot = a debuff that makes the enemy takes damage every time they take a turn debuffing enemy = nihility speciality debuffing enemy = def shred, slow, vulnerability, dot, acheron ultimate stack = nihility speciality its variative, and its great! its not an inconsistency. its their uniqueness. its not that serious of a problem.

[@doggoborgir8935]

Dot is not really for Nihulity only, But characters that plays around dot damage are will be nihility, Nihility is supposed to be a debuffer and a role that makes the enemies become weaker, Perfect example is fugue, we already have a hunt buffer like march 7th, Similarly, fugue gives def reduction and the character she designates become a debuffer itself, her passive gives extra toughness bar which is a debuff, she has a supporting damage debuff called super break, which intertwines with harmony mc.

[@Alluki-ms6lx]

makes a lot of sense it having no identity, for me nihility is the path that steals your identity

[@Ferrilsblood]

Nihility is presented as being everywhere, all the time and in diferrent capacities. That's why Nihility has everything. Except healing -_-....

[@TheWipal]

SUPRISE NIHINILTY HARMONY IS OUT NOW LMAOOO

[@Terrakol]

even Aeon IX doesn't even know he's exist, no wonder nihility is in this state lol

[@xertion8567]

Yeah it mostly just seems like Hoyo doesnt have a full grasp on Nihility, my thoughts are that Nihility only does have two variations, debuffers and DOT facilitators, with Acheron being the only DPS because lore-wise shes an Emanator of Nihility and just wouldnt make sense to not make her playable character be Nihility and an incredibly strong one. I do agree that if this were the case they shouldve just made her DOT be insanely powerful instead of just going full DPS, but just couldnt find a way to implement it without turning her into another Kafka that just did 10x more dmg, it wouldve just made Kafka a complete downgrade since Acheron wouldve been the top lightning, DOT character. But on the other side of Nihility, Acheron probably wouldnt have seen much traction being the one and only Emanator of Nihility and her kit turning her into just another debuffer which we already had plenty of by the time she was revealed anyways. Essentially from the very beginning Hoyo shouldve had an idea of what role or niche Nihility would fill so that way when Acheron came out she could either fill that role just alot better or be the only outlier in the lineup so that Nihility wouldnt become the jumbled mess it is now.

[@Lynemn]

I don't think the problem is a lack of identity. It's a lack of DoT-focused characters in the meta. And the fact that DoT, like everything else in the game, suffered severe powercreep with the release of Acheron (and later Firefly and Feixiao). When you think about it, while most paths had a pretty specific purpose at first, they've all branched off into different categories. Hunt used to be single-target damage, but now it's follow-up attacks, which used to be Erudition-specific. Abundance used to be healing, but then it became healing plus buffing, and then healing plus summoned follow up attacks. The one path that has no identity is Destruction. It's always fit some weird category that should be Hunt, but isn't quite, because it deals a bit more splash damage than hunt, or does it? Sometimes it just counter-attacks a single opponent. And now it deals a ton of break damage and inflicts elemental vulnerability, because why not combine Nihility into Destruction, too? They'll likely return to DoT characters at some point once they've decided to stop releasing teammates for Firefly, Acheron, and Feixiao. But who knows how many more they have planned until then?

[@eraser2651]

They will stop releasing teammates for the trio alright... But they will release more teammate for summon/servant. We would have to wait till like 2026 for dot to ACTUALLY shine for once

[@EKTOS]

Tbh for me nihility identity for me have always been debuff like every member of this path only shares the ability to debuff nothing else for example DOT(kafka/bswan) crit unit(welt/acheron) and then the supports(fugue/JQ/fugue) there playstyle only shares one thing debuffing enemies either for there team of for themselves(acheron) but they play completely differently to each other but rn this identity kinda got into a weird spot where unit outside of nihility now starts applying debuffs which for me dosent make sense bcause they taking the identity of nihility as a path but this is my opinion on this matter

[@kyoga5714]

a real debuffer that reduces enemy defense, enemy spd, enemy atk, or enemy turns etc. would be too broken.

[@baybayuwuw1715]

Super DOT got me crackin laugh LMAO

[@agustalenan2038]

and then there fugue (Tingyun 5 Star).. a fire Nihility but more like Harmony for break team