Nintendo Tried to Fix a Problem but Made it Worse

Today's video gives a brief history of spike hitboxes and how Nintendo changed them from Mario Maker 1 to Mario Maker 2. They probably did it to avoid crazy spike levels but the opposite ended up happening
Ryukahr Trump Jump Explanation: • The Trump Jump in Supe...
Z7 clearing DTFP 3-5: • DTFP 3-5 by ryukahr [M...
Other crazy spike level: • Perfect Run: Precision...
Thabeast pixel perfect vid: • I Actually Landed A Pi...
Panga pixel perfect vid: • This Level Drained Ove...
Leto's Twitter: / letoii6

[@letoii1442]

Great video! Thank you so much for including me and my team, I really appreciate it! 🥰🥰🥰

[@healthyminds9279]

Lol

[@dimitribottjen2495]

You single-handedly make every streamers life harder.

[@jobietench]

@@dimitribottjen2495 hey, if he and his community enjoy their levels i don't see the issue

[@DannyBPlays]

@dimitribottjen2495 be nice

[@arbie2100]

you are really good at being good at creating

[@Lord-521]

The thing I'm wondering is why Nintendo thought the spike was bad in the first place the whole point was about making your own levels and some people want to make very difficult levels

[@DannyBPlays]

I agree, but they might have worried that crazy hard levels would scare some potential buyers from getting the game, no idea

[@legoboy7107]

@@DannyBPlays The hitbox in Mario Maker 2 just feels...icky, as someone who never even played Mario Maker 1. Like, giving something a larger hitbox than its visual appearance conveys is generally considered bad game design, at least when it comes to hurtboxes, because it just makes it feel unfair and icky to the player, and the same is true of the spikes in 2. When you die to a spike even though visually it doesn't look like Mario is touching it yet, it just feels bad. General rule of thumb with hitboxes in games is to make things that hurt you slightly smaller than they visually appear, while maybe making things that reward you like collectibles or power-ups slightly larger than they appear, or in short, player-favored bias. That makes things feel nice and more fair to the player, and aside from the vertical hitbox in Mario Maker 1, that's exactly what the MM1 spike does, but MM2's spikes do the opposite of that rule.

[@papyrussemi2848]

Because it's not the Official Nintendo®-Approved Way™

[@DodgeThatAttack]

play your own way, but only if it lines up exactly with how nintendo wants you to play

[@jesusmijares8614]

Then if you are afraid of these levels, why dont you Select normal difficulty, It exists.

[@gurvmlk]

The problem with that change has nothing to do with difficulty, or lack thereof. It has to do with making the hitboxes misleading. Before, the hitboxes made sense. Now the game tricks you into thinking you have more room for error than you actually do. Which is a problem that extends beyond precise jumps, and into every single use of spike blocks throughout the entire stage catalog.

[@DannyBPlays]

you're right, they are very misleading. You literally die before your character has touched any spike pixel

[@Dragoonsoul7878]

Ah yes, it made sense that it kills you when standing on a floor. The thing which kill you by impaling you can't impale you. Then spikes were always a problem regardless.

[@umamifan]

@@Dragoonsoul7878 Tell me, just how did you come to your conclusion? Trying to understand your thought process here.

[@ferociousfeind8538]

​@Dragoonsoul7878 the spike vertical hit box being reduced makes sense. It can't impale you if you're standing on a platform that is slightly above it. Whole in MM1 the spikes sort of bled through platforms at that height, and killed you even though you weren't supposed to be interacting with them.

[@andrewface2355]

The misleading hitbox is one thing, but it's specifically trump jumps in SMM2 that's even more hated. Because there's skill/difficulty, and then there's throwing yourself at the level over and over again until you get lucky. When Z7, arguably the best precision level player, hates SMM2 trump jumps because he considers them luck and not skill, then they're bullshit.

[@lpfan4491]

Nintendo:"See this perfectly functioning hit box that could only be better if it was custom-shape instead of a box? Yeah, let's replace it with a broken hitbox nobody asked for!" 😂(Seriously, why would anyone intentionally make a hitbox that does not correspond to its object? That is like rule number 1 of collission-design)

[@Steir12]

Well the long story short: people always be bitching about hitboxes being unfair if they are perfectly fair, to stop them from whining hitboxes should be at least somewhat forgiving, slightly bigger if those are hitboxes you supposed to shoot or land on and slightly smaller if those are hazards. Usually its player collision box itself that is smaller than its visual model.

[@SomeguyWhoLikesVideos]

Geometry dash spikes would like a word with you

[@denimchicken104]

Nintendo just has to meddle in our entertainment. Even in a game that literally all about us making whatever we want.

[@xdragoonzero0]

​@@Steir12That's why the solution is inaccurate hitboxes in the player's favor. It's why bullet hells make the player's hurtbox incredibly small, even as small as a single pixel. It's better to give that leeway so it will be obvious to the player that they've messed up.

[@rashidisw]

It is perfectly possible to have perfect-non-box hit'box'es, though it would usually be computationally expensive to perform.

[@aureliamastergoomba1278]

3:23 Here’s a rule I have for those levels: If it’s PIXEL PERFECT like that, you’re allowed to first boo it then skip it!

[@DannyBPlays]

I agree, I've always felt like no-skip should have an exception for those levels, but none of the streamers want to adopt that rule

[@SJrad]

Yeah panga basically already has done this and this includes other stupidly hard tricks.

[@Qbe_Root]

No-skip is no-skip, if you start making exceptions where do you stop?

[@Gir558]

@@Qbe_Root Ah yes, the old slippery slope argument... which is considered to be a logical fallacy, rather than an actual valid point. Its very easy to set strict rules for yourself, the real issue is viewer response. Inevitably there'd be people who don't understand the true level of difficulty these jumps present, and some people who do but don't care, that would complain every time one of these levels was skipped. Even if what you're doing is justified constantly causing chat to complain isn't a good thing, and while ideally it might weed out an audience that just wants to see you fail and free you up to have more fun and produce better content for the rest of your viewers... people who do challenge runs like this often build up large audiences of people who like seeing them fail at unfair bullshit like this, so its always a gamble and many people are unwilling to take it.

[@Qbe_Root]

@@Gir558 Hey I'm just saying that might be why someone decides not to have these exceptions on their challenge, by all means feel free to set the rules however you want if you're doing a challenge like that

[@t-bird6853]

I hope the hitbox you show at the end with both sides on the pixel but top and bottom are shortened is the hitbox that they go with if they ever make Super Mario Maker 3.

[@DannyBPlays]

I hope it's not because I hope MM3 is 3D :)

[@t-bird6853]

@@DannyBPlays They would probably make that its own game, "Super Mario 3D Maker". Not have it be Super Mario Maker 3.

[@MonkeyMan-uz8zk]

​@@t-bird6853Super Mario Maker 3... D

[@t-bird6853]

@@MonkeyMan-uz8zk The previous Super Mario Makers weren't 3D, so the third one would NOT be 3D, since it shouldn't be in the same series! Super Mario Maker 3D?! MORE LIKE SUPER MARIO MAKER 3DICKS IN YOUR MOUTH

[@kuutti256]

How would you move items in 3D?

[@a.s.raiyan2003-4]

Really liked this analysis. Now it's more clear why DGR_Dave's Endless Expert No Skip Runs often get destroyed by a single one of these xD

[@MeganNarwhal]

spikes and munchers had unique hitboxes in smm1 (both were different, munchers were even smaller than spikes), but in mm2 they changed it so both have the same hitbox as a ground tile. odd decision, but nintendo also removed item spin carrying in smw and opening downloaded levels in the editor, so it was clearly one of many nerfs they tried to make to deter hard levels from being made :P funny how that turned out

[@DannyBPlays]

Thanks for your feedback! I didn't know MM1 munchers had a different hitbox than spikes

[@insidiousy]

They also removed wall-jumping with the Propeller Suit in NSMBU. All of these removals are a shame.

[@Lexiosity]

​@@insidiousywait but, nsmbw had propeller mario wall jump, that's removing the functions of the original games

[@chaoslord_6664]

@@Lexiosity yeah i can confirm that they removed it nintendo just likes doing stupid stuff

[@ameliabaroni2650]

​@@LexiosityYeah, thb this isn't the first time, just look at the Cat Suit

[@holyelephantmg8838]

Why wouldn’t they like them? Nintendo would make it like that, then when they see that people took the intentional feature and used the special mechanic they gave it to its fullest potential. You don’t see them patching Odyssey because players are jumping too far with Cappy. I know they’re incredibly strict on how you play but they’re typically fine as long as you stay in the intended section.

[@ee5142]

*you don’t see them patching odyssey YET

[@tfx9223]

Yeah I think the guy is just getting mad at Nintendo for the sake of getting mad at Nintendo. I think the most realistic option was that the SMM2 dev team didn’t realize or forgot that the spike hitboxes were not pixel perfect in SMM1.

[@tfx9223]

@@jaade9485 probably, it’s not unreasonable to make a hit box fit what it looks like

[@anarc7125]

@@tfx9223 Nintendo has a track record of stiffling any creativity in MM and try to railroad players in making levels the Official Intended Nintendo Seal of Quality (tm) way. It's not a mistake, it's a deliberate design choice. Because they can't ban hard levels, they're intentionally making them as tedious as possible. The long and annoying respawn time isn't a mistake, it's a conscious design choice to make kaizo a chore. The fact that you can't respawn from checkpoint and either have to start the level over or wait out the timer isn't an oversight, it's a coinscious design choice to make any potential softlock in a level a pain in the ass. The fact that they took hitboxes that fit the sprite and changed them to make them visually inaccurate and unforgiving isn't due to them remembering, it's a conscious design choice to deter people from making 1-tile gap levels. The fact that they fixed "bugs" that weren't an issue only to introduce 10 more (and I'm not talking about things like going through solid blocks like there was in MM1, I'm talking about smaller ones that had skill involved to pull off) isn't due to them wanting to patch the game, it's a conscious design choice to prevent any tech level from being made. Because as a matter of fact, Mario Maker is actually a bad maker game. It's great if you want to build casual Mario levels, but anything else will be methodically destroyed by Nintendo, either by removing it outright, or perfectly engineering it to be as tedious as possible. Because god forbid people try to make hard levels in a Mario game.

[@thelolfaceguy]

​@@ee5142its been like 6 years since the game came out, they probably arent patching it

[@gulfgiggleanimations4472]

It’s really a shame that they changed the side hitbox. Even beyond the pixel perfect levels, it’s annoying how grazing a spike in a kaizo level means you die. I would’ve appreciated the slight bit of leeway of the old hitbox.

[@BaconNuke]

I knew about the hitbox being bit weird but then when I heard that Panga and others are surprised when they get it.. when they do other crazy tricks regularly... then I realized the issue.. like there is skill and then there is BS.. like sure some may enjoy grinding a level over and over but there is a limit for anyone not them lol Like the people who do content? Sure dying a few times is alright, makes sense.. but when the level requires essentially luck to not just drain your lives? Fuck the level maker.. I want a challenge not a roadblock

[@zigazav1]

And let's not forget that one level from Mario Maker 1, that has a mechanism built into it that makes it so there's a very slim chance you winning. Like, entirely RNG, there's no skill you can master to always beat that level I'm referring to about. To the point that to beat it, people would intentionally leave their Wii U on all night and hoping they beat the level, since the level autoplayed itself and had such a small chance of being cleared. I'd say the name of the level, but I forgot it's name

[@vacantile]

One of my biggest gripes with this game since day 1

[@healthyminds9279]

Finally, a video explaining this massively important topic in the MM2 community! It's very important that this flaw gets exposed to a mainstream audience, rather than mostly only people who watch MM2 Twitch streams knowing about it. Hopefully this video blows up, to put way more pressure on Nintendo than streamers complaining to their small audience could. Hopefully they fix muncher hitboxes too in MM3.

[@seriesx9508]

Or maybe actual level creators could make proper levels

[@rraaiin]

@@seriesx9508 there are plenty of "proper levels" already

[@Damariobros]

I can't help but wonder if some spike level creators aren't making these _specifically_ with the express purpose of killing endless runs.

[@Phychologik]

Director: We're having problems with players making levels with these really hard levels with these chasms of spike blocks any ideas? CEO: mhh.. Director: What was that? CEO: Make it... *harder*

[@GatorOne-in7hk]

I knew the hitbox was larger than it should be, but I never realized that it was different between both games.

[@WhiteThumbs]

In the Free Rider community we have something similar but we call them tubes, luckily pixel perfect hitboxes are reasonable because the bike mechanics can squish your bike so that if you have enough speed you can slip in without dying.

[@TheFinalChapters]

In the first Super Mario Maker, you could make insanely precise pixel perfect jumps with very specific setups. In Super Mario Maker 2, you can make insanely precise pixel perfect jumps by placing two spikes with a hole in the middle.

[@Magicofoxio]

Are you kidding me, nintendo?! This is why the spike hitbox was changed. The hitbox is even worse than I thought.

[@Accordion_Guy]

Nice video! I also have something you might want to talk about, because I've never seen anyone mention it ever. In the story mode level Fire Koopa Clown Carnage, there is a slope near the beginning of the cave area, and it has a ground detail going through it. I tried many ways in the maker, but could not find a way to recreate it.

[@DannyBPlays]

I'll look at what you're talking about and that sounds interesting but I don't know that it could make for an interesting few minutes to talk about in a vid

[@imabirdielmao]

I think at one point you would have been able to do that yourself, but some time during development they decided to limit ground decorations to flat ground. They probably never thought to check the story mode levels which is why they show up there. There's also a ground decoration in the first slope in A Downhill Battle (might be in a different slope but it's in the level somewhere)

[@dezmas9332]

@@DannyBPlays Could try a short if it's your vibe, youtube likes to promote those even if they don't give you anything

[@qedsoku849]

Alternatively, they could have made the spike hitbox 1 pixel larger, making going in between 2 of them impossible

[@Gir558]

No, hitboxes should never be bigger than the object they're representing if they do damage to the player. Giving something like spikes hitboxes larger than the object is inherently bad game design because it causes people to die without ever actually touching them, which will feel bad to the player, and be unintuitive in an unnecessary way to new players. The only appropriate way to make the hitboxes bigger would be to make the actual object bigger as well, at which point sealing the gap and making going between spikes impossible would indeed be acceptable. Making hitboxes smaller than the sprite is fine though, as long as it isn't egregious, and is actually often good game design, as it gives people just a slight bit of leeway. With pixel accurate hitboxes its still possible to just barely touch a spike and die, but with hitboxes one pixel smaller you'll always be very clearly touching them when they kill you. This improves user experience by making things feel fairer, and good game design can compensate for it to ensure no difficulty is lost.

[@rasnauf]

@@Gir558bro never played a fighting game in his life 💀

[@bgys8740]

@@rasnauf he said damage, but he wanted to say "negative effects for the player". In Super Mario Bros for example, A coin hitbox should be bigger than the coin itself, but a spike should not. Developers must always look for benefits for the player. There's another trick called Coyote Time, which basically allows the player to jump in the air a few frames after he ran out of the ground. This kind of tricks that help the player make the user experience better. You may think it's unfair, but that's how games are made. Hitboxes must never be "mathematically perfect". Percentages for example are most of the times tricked too. If the game says "Your attack has 60% chance to critical strike" it might actually be 75%.

[@TheTrueBrawler]

​@@rasnauf How exactly is one's alleged lack of fighting game experience relevant to Mario Maker? There is a big difference between a player versus player game and a singleplayer/cooperative game, and the way hitboxes have to be designed in each genre is different as well.

[@timohara7717]

​@@rasnaufwell now i dont want to

[@nshade-fc6xl]

So this probably didn't really fit in this video but mario maker 1 spikes also have a weird issue. When walking from a block directly on to a spike at the same height there's an apparent inconsistency between running right and left. If you are walking to the right over a spike you will take damage before you entirely leave the block you are standing on but when moving to the left off a block you won't take damage until mario would have fallen off the block.

[@Sonictheoofhog4]

Nintendo would sue someone for not playing the game correctly Edit: I started an argument lol

[@ZoofyZoof]

I don't understand why people have such a problem with the intended way to play the game. I personally find it both irritating, and cringe, that you give so much of a shit about playing it "the way you want to". If you're doing it wrong, you should switch to doing it right, not defend wrongness.

[@twistedgwazi5727]

​@@ZoofyZoofwhat a braindead opinion to have about a game meant to allow players to express their creativity

[@Valcuda]

​@@ZoofyZoofIt's fine to play a game the intended way, but it's also just as valid to find your own fun, afterall, that's the point of a game, to have fun. Nintendo goes out of their way to ensure you can ONLY play the way they want, even in a game where the whole point is to create.

[@ZoofyZoof]

@@Valcuda Well if they think that it's a problem then I believe they're justified in fixing it. Judge the way they chose to fix it, not the fact that they did it in general

[@DarkStarCoreX]

@@ZoofyZoof Ninmeato Rider

[@thenostalgicyoshi7149]

My main issue with the hitbox honestly is that now we get more levels that only take a minute to create (and have no creativity since it's just one jump), and some people would like those more than a much better level that has much more effort that's not made by a streamer or a popular creator. That's why I typically boo those levels that take advantage of the spike and muncher hitbox and only makes you DO the jump. I honestly enjoy precision. My most recent level is a speedrun with precision. I even don't mind pixel perfect as long as it's optional, a one time thing, and there's more than just the pixel perfect jump itself.

[@mrhyde8671]

Most people hate then, some people love them. Thanks for including my clip! I am a proud LS member 😊

[@SillyArcade]

By trying to make it easier, they made it impossible. Lesson to all game developers: think about every possible way a new feature could adjust your game, positive and negative.

[@seriesx9508]

Easier said than done. I'd say Nintendo is one of the best at deciding every new feature of a game: positive or negative. Its why very few companies or people can create a Nintendo quality product. Its easier said than done

[@seriesx9508]

The problem is less so Nintendo but bad level creators. Pixel perfect spikes is not good design. Just like pick a door levels are not good design. Mario Maker 2 level designers that KNOW of the spike's hitbox yet STILL create levels revolving around them are not good level creators. They would of tried the spike jump 1000 times just to get it to work once and still decided it was a good idea to upload the level. The problem is bad level creators uploading bad levels.

[@SillyArcade]

@@seriesx9508 Actually, you helped my point. Back in mario maker 1, because the jump wasnt pixel perfect people used to consider it a high level skill even if it was stupid hard. In mario maker 2, its near impossible, but not totally impossible. Of course people would still make those kinds of levels, but now instead of being a tight yet doable sink jump, its a near impossible jump that kills endless runs. Nintendo could have easily accounted for this by realizing that leaving a 1 pixel gap doesn't fix the problem, it just makes it worse. Instead, they decided to fix the cat suit and make icicles not global ground anymore. Mario maker 2 is just a mess of confusing design decisions when you start thinking about it too hard.

[@anon4305]

@@seriesx9508 Changing a perfect hitbox to be inaccurate because "muh hard levels" is complete garbage game design in the context of a player generated content video game and no argument that making levels around the spike being bad can change that. The change effects casual levels that use the spike because it doesn't even have to touch you to damage you now. Stop fanboying over well payed employess at a billion dollar company screwing up their jobs and taking jabs at people just making levels for no profit.

[@toadioB]

I’m really liking this new style of videos! Keep up the good work!

[@Greywander87]

There are a lot of tricks in game design that can make the game more fun to play. One of those tricks is to create a gap between apparent difficulty and actual difficulty. If the game _appears_ to be harder than it really is, it makes the player feel like they're more skilled (or lucky) than they actually are. A well known example of this is how Doom 2016 makes you take less damage while your health is low, so that it looks like you're closer to death than you really are. In this case, it makes sense that the spike block hitbox should be smaller than the hitbox of a normal block so that you can brush up to them more closely without dying. Those MM1 clips look more dangerous than they really are, which makes them more thrilling without feeling impossible. So yeah, I'm saying the spike blocks in MM2 are poorly designed. I agree with the decision to shorten them on the top so you can stand on a semisolid platform without dying, but this shortening should be applied all the way around. Something else they can do is slightly shrink the hitbox of Mario so that he occupies less than a full block, allowing him to weave between spike blocks more easily. Bullet hell games are generally good examples of this, though I don't play a lot of such games. But I believe the hitbox of both the player and the enemy bullets are actually much smaller than they appear to be, making it easier to weave between bullets without getting hit. This is part of why Touhou looks as insane as it does. It's still a hard game, but the _apparent_ difficulty is harder still.

[@Gir558]

Bullet hitboxes vary, but player hitboxes in bullet hell games are almost always significantly smaller than the sprite. Small bullets usually have accurate hitboxes, but large bullets often have an outer layer that doesn't do damage with an inner core that does, and in well designed bullet hell games these will be clearly visible on the sprite in some way so the player knows how much room they have to move. Going by the MM1 gameplay I'd say the sideways hitboxes were actually fine, as they already give more room than it feels like you "should" have despite being pixel accurate thanks to collision boxes in Mario usually being slightly larger than the sprite (presumably to make jumps slightly more lenient than they look as there's an extra pixel or two to land on). The vertical hitbox being shrunk was definitely a good idea.

[@psychicchicken5263]

Nintendo on their way to ruin a perfectly fine hitbox just to "fix" something that isn't a problem While also supporting auto levels at the same time, which is about as entertaining as watching paint dry. Seriously though, is it not obvious that all the non-gameplay levels flooding the game are what's really killing the game, and not some random precision levels?

[@XiX_Mega_W]

very cool video ! i didn't know about the hitbox change from SMM1 to SMM2.

[@uranium54321]

I’m glad someone’s talking about this! Even with all the new features in MM2, I still ultimately like MM1 more because of the spike hitbox change and (more importantly) the level algorithm in MM2 where if the first two or so people to see your level don’t like it, nobody ever plays it again. Yeah there was tons of hot garbage in MM1, but I honestly prefer that to only getting levels that feel generic. There are just as many good levels that get suppressed by the MM2 algorithm as bad levels, especially when it comes to very difficult ones.

[@PhilipMurphyExtra]

Great video, But I prefer actually a fun Mario level to a one insane level

[@DannyBPlays]

Agreed, same

[@davinchristino]

Some players like to push their skill though

[@AsmeowdeuZz]

the thing is basically not revertable. the spike hit box change is probably the intro of tjump, however after years of discovery now these setups are very easy to make with other enemies

[@ticyrbx]

2:49 Oh hey! Thanks for including my clip!

[@Helluva_Boss_Blitz]

Good for you I guess

[@javierascanio4309]

I KNEW it felt way worse in two. Like, you can consider me a noob since i cant do sdvanced shell stuff, but i enjoyed some difficulty spikes if they didnt force specific tactics like that, this hitbox change ruined hard levels for me

[@SMMAndrew2121]

1:01 thanks for putting my level in 😊 that was a nice surprise lol

[@ExtemTheHedgehogLol]

-meanwhile the Celeste devs who if given that spike would only make the hitbox the size of the circle in the middle-

[@Endermanch]

Ah yes, another great video that Nintendo won't ever listen to.

[@DannyBPlays]

:'(

[@TheHomieLew]

Love how they did what they did to discourage hard levels, possibly to make a better player experience, without having the foresight of how much it'd backfire when mario pros would see it as a challenge

[@pikaknight_]

I hope they will make even wider spike hitbox. So it would be truly impossible to create levels like this. They are so annoying in endless...

[@AlexanderScott66]

Imagine they make it so wide that you die like 5 tiles away to a spike that's not even on screen

[@Rabek44]

@@AlexanderScott66 no one would buy the game and they would lose money

[@AlexanderScott66]

@Rabek44 I think the joke flew over your head

[@Jmcgee1125]

Hitboxes on obstacles are supposed to be forgiving. At worst it's exactly how it appears, but usually it's slightly smaller. I'm surprised Nintendo has taken the opposite approach.

[@SleepDeprivedGinger]

When I first realised this back in 2019, my only thought was “well, there goes custom lava”

[@Wildspeck]

Why didn’t they make the hit box literally like half a pixel larger so the jump is actually impossible

[@AlexanderScott66]

1 pixel. You have two pixels to jump through, so one pixel each extended would close the gap enough to make Mario always collide. Half a pixle would mean you have to be one the exact pixel with no leeway

[@BlueArremer]

You cannot do things in half pixels

[@snowwsquire]

@@BlueArremeryes you can

[@AlexanderScott66]

@BlueArremer I think he means Mario Maker SMB1 style pixels where a ground tile is 8 pixels by 8 pixels. That you can easily do since one "pixel" is actually dozens of real pixels. And the math to calculate the hit boxes doesn't depend on real pixels, so you can do fractions of a real pixel. It's only sprites that can't display in fractions of a real pixel(though can easily with SMB1 style pixels

[@Alice_Fumo]

it just violates the first rule of good game design: whenever a player dies, they need to feel like its their fault instead of the games fault

[@chrisyayitsme]

One of the trailers show a trump jump. If I remember correctly, Mario was wearing a shellment. he jumps down to the flagpole with a line of spike

[@blackcat_064]

I would just hard-code it to damage mario whenever he jumps between two spikes/munchers like that (obvs you couldn't do this as a patch to SMM2 as it would break levels, but for SMM3 this would work)

[@DannyBPlays]

that is an interesting idea. I can't say I hate it but creators would just use a trick to place munchers slightly larger than 1 unit apart

[@AlexanderScott66]

@@DannyBPlays Then you would have the whole 1+ unit to jump through since on either side, they wouldn't be close enough to have the game consider it as Mario jumping through. And if it's a check like "if the hitboxes

[@GamepadStudios]

I like this new video style, also I never realized this

[@almightyhydra]

I suspect it's not so much schadenfreude on Nintendo's part, but rather just making things consistent, which makes programming easier.

[@DannyBPlays]

Making what consistent?

[@TheMistermastermario]

@@DannyBPlays i think it means being consistent with the size of normal blocks vs the size of the spikes?

[@VBandit47]

I completely agree It's too bad Mario Maker 2 is never getting another patch

[@TheRileyC]

Great video. I have often wondered of the spike hitbox wasn’t just rotated by 90 degrees to fix the strange way spikes kill the player when they are flush with solid ground. The whole left side right side variation in smm1 was quite strange

[@Ninja_4561]

This type of stuff is why, although MM2 has more features, MM1 is a better game in general

[@GatorOne-in7hk]

I don’t know why you say that when 90% of the levels in that game are unplayable trash. In 2 there are way more good levels.

[@DannyBPlays]

I agree that gameplay and 1-player mode are better from MM1, but features and level design(and algorithm, for the most part) are far better in MM2

[@skyavoxii]

They could just add some sort of difficulty rating system that allowed players to rank the levels based on their difficulty in order to keep these types of levels out of endless mode. Since I think having to boo a level just because it's difficult is weird anyway. The endless mode categories could still go off of completion rate, but then a level that has a less than 1% clear rate while also having a very difficult rating by players could potentially be kicked from endless mode in order to stop players from having their runs killed by a single hard level.

[@zackwoods5077]

They should appear in endless, but either add a Grand Master mode where Super Expert is now Master or don't count deaths in those levels against lives in Super Expert.

[@TheBorzoi]

The spike hitbox in MM1 was weird on the top too. You showed the mushroom platform thing but didn't show what happens when Mario hangs over a ledge over a spike. In MM2, he can hang over it as much as he wants until he falls off the solid block from either side on to the spike but in MM1, you can only do that from one side. From the other side, you die as soon as Mario's toe goes over the ledge.

[@DannyBPlays]

yeah that was a weird change, so they made it way easier to stand on a block between spikes. I was gonna mention it but it wasn't related to the main issue of the horizontal hitbox

[@fridaynightfunkinfan5627]

If you didn't see it in one of the earlier videos you made, I have an idea for rejected updates 26: When Mario stops at a cliff, he says "Time to take a piss.". And when an enemy approaches him, it stops and says "What the hell are you doing?", and the longer you stay at the cliff, the more we hear of the meme.

[@SunnyKimDev]

Your logic has a flaw in that in some of your featured videos, it wasn't a spike at all. Munchers, saw blades and carefully positioned big thwomps can easily make jumps more impossible; it nintendo were to patch the spikes LS would just use munchers. If nintendo patched munchers, they would use some other absurd combination of obstacles to conjure up the perfect pixel-perfect levels.

[@DannyBPlays]

You're correct about the others but I wanted to focus on 1 singular item to make the video easier to follow for both fans of MM1, MM2, or who had maybe never played any MM game

[@SunnyKimDev]

@@DannyBPlays Also, I think the hitbox change wasn't there to stop trump jumping in the first place. Due to the introduction of slopes and SM3DW, the inherent logic of wall collision and detection has been revamped; comparison videos and glitches back this behavior. I believe this led to the wall collision box to extrude the damage collision box, forcing the devs to make the damage collision box even wider or else with the new wall system, the spikes would behave like the mushroom background + spike combination. Trump jumps were never the concern of nintendo; the newly polishe wall system requiring for a wider hitbox was.

[@DannyBPlays]

I'm sure there were various factors involved in their decision to adjust hitboxes, but ultimately it ended up making the experience more frustrating for players

[@cokezero9254]

they did enlarge the muncher hitbox as well iirc, and both saw blades and thwomps are far from pixel perfect without some glitched set ups. the simplicity of the pixel-perfect setup, which is otherwise harder to achieve in the first game, is the direct factor that helped popularize Leto levels.

[@RMJ1984]

The music used in this video is called Mama - Bertysolo, it took a lot of hard work and crazy AI skills to remove the voice from the video and shazam it. Please contact your local youtubers and remind them to always add and credit the music used in the videos. ! Thanks.

[@ramaicatseye]

Great Vid

[@DannyBPlays]

Great comment

[@JosepiThe13th]

That ending could’ve been a bit better. It cuts off so abruptly that I thought something happened to my wifi 😂

[@maliciousbugman]

Mario Maker 2 has a lot of "if it ain't broke, 'fix' it anyway" moments, it feels like.

[@TheYoshi23]

I have a solution: Get rid of the spikes all together.

[@kalebrhea5822]

😂

[@zaphod77]

If they really wanted to stop that, they should have flat out disallowed placing two spike blocks with one empty one between them. make it so if you place one with exactly one empty between them it auto fills the one between with a spike block.

[@kevincurran9975]

For rejected updates part 26 I have two ideas The Monado power up, when you collect this power up you turn to shulk and he's like Mario Maker 1 shulk but when your in a huge trouble the level stops, turns blue and shulk foresees the future of what could happen like a soft lock, the only downside is that you can't use any real arts so no shield, jump, or speed! I've been having a new problem! When I play Mario Maker 2 now my joycon either drifts or catches on fire and I have to get a whole new joycon, please make it so when I play Mario Maker 2 I won't have such issue Hoping you add this in 26, thanks for the series!

[@chainmengaming]

Sometimes I used to put spikes where mushroom platforms were to create my own sort of lava tiles, because y'know, they don't have lava tiles that you can place.

[@noisew4ll]

friendly reminder that mario maker 1 launched without checkpoints, only added them via patch later, and had no in-game method to encourage or teach players to use them. nintendo never knew what they were doing with mario maker as a series

[@Dragoonsoul7878]

And in MM2 there is several items showcased in the singe player story mode that are unable to be used. One of the big ones being the Stone Block, an holdable item that you don't worry about breaking/triggering while not being able to break things like a Spring could.

[@byrontheusurper6505]

Man, I miss ceave gaming, I'd always get this kind of hyper specific mario maker madness from him!

[@pj-wille]

This is a huge part of why I got tired of MM2. Shell jumps and spike jumps were made harder for no good reason and I just don't quite have the patience for it. If MM3 gets made, I hope they just accept tricks exist and instead of trying to remove them by making them harder, focus on making them easier

[@JebAlert]

Nintendo when there are game breaking bugs: 😴 Nintendo when players are having fun: 😡

[@NottJoeyOfficial]

I remember when Mario Maker 2 came out and troll levels for the first couple of weeks would use the fact that the hit box was different to troll KZbinrs. The height of the hitbox being lowered was used so people could run across them and no one tried initially because of that lmao.

[@elio7610]

I really dislike when visuals are not accurate to hitboxes.

[@wisnoskij]

Trump Jumps and Ryu's the Donald Trump for President series is pure nostalgia. I started watching YT by watching Ryu every day.

[@ZawaOnYoutube]

The thing is people like Beast dont even hate stuff like this. He didnt say remove it. He said patch it to what it was. No one hated the difficulty. They hate that its legitimately unfair now.

[@sinteleon]

Alternatively, add some more tags. A troll level tag is honestly desperately needed. (and in this case, precision platforming tag, which would also include traditional kaizo levels)

[@ramaicatseye]

Goomba mario is OFFICAL in mario bros wonder. Its that crazy? You predicted it danny commenters.

[@Noromdiputs]

Nintendo really should have a much more comprehensive tagging system that includes unlisted or unsuitable for endless.

[@kirby5962]

Come on, Mario is like, 1 nanometer away from the block, when he took damage!!

[@Electric0eye]

That Nintendo developed and released a creativity toy only to get mad when people use it the "wrong" way is so on brand

[@Smfsableye]

I KNEW there was more than just the lack of Mystery Mushroom as to why I didn’t like Mario Maker 2.

[@miwiki6]

Nintendo's 5000th fuck up

[@Awesome_Dawson_Films_Official]

Another reason they should port SMM1 to Switch.

[@photonic083]

Ok this is not really that related but I wonder how multiplayer would've gone if Nintendo had made you win not by shortest time, but by highest score/ points. This would encourage players to explore the level and actually give score purpose!

[@ToaderTheToad]

I think that'd be an interesting alternative gamemode in SMM3

[@CatSurfer]

There are a ton of levels with not many opportunities to get a high score

[@Dragoonsoul7878]

The issue is that Time gives points and there is no certainty. You have to gamble on lots of points or gamble on running to the end. But also re-spawning things leads to major issues when combined with this.

[@photonic083]

@@Dragoonsoul7878 then Nintendo could just reduce or remove points from time

[@ToaderTheToad]

@@Dragoonsoul7878 You could remedy this by having items not give points to a player after they've already collected it once, and time points could just be discarded

[@Matias-fh2hf]

patches don't alter the game version of posted levels so there would still be a lot of pixel perfect jumps

[@DannyBPlays]

you're right, ThaBeast saying "patch the game" was meant mostly as a joke, he knows they wouldn't

[@PringleMr.]

Should've probably made like a category for kaizo levels instead of this, would be more difficult but better

[@arcanine_enjoyer]

Or hear me out a Super Boo option like Panga suggested to get rid of the absolutely horrid ones. Only appears if a level has been sufficiently booed meaning the option won't appear if the level is at least okay. Yes there are consequences for this and I am fine with it

[@rtnman]

I really disagree with this video, so im going to write a paragraph about it! The whole idea that nintendo dislikes spike jumps has zero evidence besides the fact that the hitbox changed. If they really disliked them, why wouldn't they just delete levels with them? They do it for tons of other levels they dont like, so there's no reason they wouldn't do that if they really did dislike it. Plus, why would Nintendo even dislike them in the first place? They haven't ever had a major issue with any levels just because they were hard, as long as there aren't any bugs or glitches used. The only reason that spike hitboxes were changed was to make them align with the visual sprite. The video also misrepresents both the new and old hitboxes substantially. It shows the old one as a square, and the new one as a rectangule, both of which are wrong. The old hitbox was much slimmer on the sides, did not line up with the sprite, and was not a square. The new one is actually a square, with the exact same hitbox size as a ground tile. It feels really disingenuous to show these very exaggerated images when they dont even resemble the actual hitboxes. Anyway, those are my opinions

[@justarandomdood]

I watch Panga, I'm enjoying the skips runs a LOT more than no skips because of these stupid levels where the level creator gets infinite tries but it screws over the endless player :P Didn't watch anything in SMM1 tho, so I'm glad to learn about this change, very interesting.

[@DannyBPlays]

I agree, his skips don't bother me at all and almost every time they're a level I'd skip if I was playing on my own anyway. It's usually absurd garbage and MM2 viewers are mostly past the "hilariousness" of garbage

[@TheRunicBlade]

@@DannyBPlays Even the ones that aren't over it are pretty well served by the actual well designed troll levels, too, which there are plenty of streamers/channels heavily skewed towards if not entirely devoted to so they'd rarely bother watching endless content. No Skip Purists at this point usually aren't even about how much entertainment value there is in it, just the 'sanctity of the challenge' or whatever.

[@nine_bone_nick]

They could have easily just made those tight spots impossible instead of extremely difficult and gotten the desired result. They could have even done it without changing the spike's hotbox. If they would have made it so that Mario takes damage when he touches a spike OR if there is a spike on the tile to his left and right, then the hitbox would remain the same but that jump would be impossible.

[@Jurarigo]

Typical Nintendo, forcing you to play as *they* want, fixing what is not broken, and then breaking it for everyone.

[@alexanderbrady5486]

What I don’t get is - If Nintendo wanted to discourage these levels, why leave a pixel perfect gap? Why not make the spiky hit box big enough that there is no gap at all?

[@kwisowofer9872]

Actually, the spike hitbox wasn’t widened; Mario’s was widened. In Mario Maker 1, enter a 1 tile gap with walls, and go back and forth. If you look closely, the camera moves a tiny bit. This doesn’t happen in MM2. Also, in a one block gap, you can get boos directly above or below you in MM1 to move, but not in MM2. Doesn’t negate the fact that this is still dumb though

[@Boamere]

Thanks for not making this video 15 minutes long

[@crimsonamogsus7351]

Ah yes…. Nintendo removing creativity in a game that’s entire purpose is to be creative. This really proves the “No this is not how you are supposed to play the game” meme to be unfortunately true for Nintendo

[@일트_ilt]

But sadly Nintendon't

[@DragonTamerCos]

I say the change should have never happened because now you have to sacrifice one communities enjoyment for the sake of the majority in order to fix it. Also: "This guy thinks he's an artist, he's just like the worst fucking level creator in this game, Jesus. When will he stop? Can we make it clear, does anyone want to play these levels? Who is actually playing his levels? think the world would be a better place if he didn't just upload them, why didn't he just sit in his room, like, you knoW, probably his parent's basement honestly, and just make these levels and not upload them for the good of the world. Jesus Christ dude."

[@saturnday160]

Making a hitbox that's bigger than the pixelart is just annoying for everyone

[@SioxerNikita]

The one wrong aspect is to talk about Nintendo's reasoning, we don't know it until we have some actual information from them, until then it is speculation. It could merely be to avoid the hitbox being misleading, making hitboxes more consistent, etc... not specifically this reason... mentioning specific challenges as noskips is also kind of bad, the game should not be designed around self imposed challenges...

[@pvzmariosonica8fan]

Nice 👀 usage at the start. I love this emoji

[@TJ-hg6op]

Ok why did nintendo dislike this? What is wrong with having the spikes like that.

[@diskoBonez]

counter-theory: Nintendo thought we had it too easy in SMM1 and wanted to provide players with the tools to train with TAS-like subpixel perfect movement

[@TailsClock]

If they just had a better system for rating and categorizing levels this would not be a problem. They need to stop trying to police how people make levels, and instead let people banish certain types from showing up. For every bad level someone gets instead, is a good level they missed out on, which makes it a real sorry state right now. I never got Mario Maker 2 because this was such a problem in the first one. As was forching everyone to make bad maps until they eventually unlocked all the tools. That was especially stupid. MM2 might be far better, but both are worse than what we had for free 20 years ago with Mario romhacks.

[@Dragoonsoul7878]

If they don't police things then even with those changes you suggest people will lie or abuse things.

[@GlitterLuckyrules2028]

Idea:rush wiggler angry boy and peach daisy rosalina and pauline

[@maxwell_edison]

I don't know why Nintendo thought this was a good idea? Just to make map design harder? The leeway was useful