5 Cards Players Want BANNED in Commander

Commander players are calling for these cards to be BANNED... but should they be?
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[@briandownie2955]

Somehow watching a bird man slip a pair of boots on and off his buddies for 20 minutes while your opponents library explodes onto the battlefield feels against the spirit of the format. This is not how I want to go 😢

[@noooosdfg]

I hate the dockside/prime time thing. There's a prof interview with Sheldon Menery where Sheldon said (I'm paraphrasing) "well, the reason Primeval Titan is banned and Dockside isn't, is that we saw Primeval Titan really appear at every level of commander play, whereas Dockside really hasn't become common at many playgroups". The only reason Dockside isn't in every playgroup is that it's literally like $100 or whatever, if the card were $2 everyone would run it wherever they could like with Sol Ring. So it basically confirmed that WOTC can print these insane cards that are much better than banned cards in the same category as banned cards, but as long as they're unaffordable to the average player, nothing will happen.

[@ComstarAgent]

Maybe in 2011 everyone was playing it, but that wouldn’t be the case today

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

Price is not a reason for a card to be fair, it is even stronger a reason for it to be banned. If a card would be unfair at a dollar apiece, it is just as unfair at ten or a hundred or a thousand, and claiming that this makes it fine is directly promoting the concept that pay to win is valid game balance.

[@51gunner]

​@@ComstarAgent Are you sure? I'd say many decks that are willing to consider 2 green pips at all would still totally go for a 6 mana 6/6 that tutors any two lands to field. Even if all you get is two forests on ETB and it's removed before it attacks, that's still a 6-mana body that functionally cast a 4-mana ramp spell on ETB then took an opponent's removal. Also I'm not sure I can trust Comstar to make my card decisions for me, odds are you're just hoarding the good stuff like you do with battlemechs.

[@ComstarAgent]

@@51gunner There’s been so many commanders and support for specific strategies since 2011 that most decks these days are built around a specific strategy or commander. Plenty of Aesi and Omnath pilots would put Prime Time in their decks, but most Sythis, Miirym, and Jodah decks wouldn’t.

[@thecreed926]

WOTC doesnt control the ban list for commander

[@paolo97ism]

I really can't see how a banned as commander list would be so confusing, it seems like a pretty straightforward thing to follow

[@breakingtide]

No different than ban lists for different formats. Break commander into its own level formats and less feel bads will happen and true cedh can be established as its own format

[@slymcfly123]

​@@breakingtide cedh is edh. Nothing more. Same card pool.

[@alexv1265]

Exactly, if you understand how to play this game on a basic level I think you can understand how a ban list works

[@Bubblenuts13]

I would add that playing commander at any level where the banlist would matter immediately facilitates knowing what’s not on the banlist. (You might not know the specific cards that are on it, but you know what cards you own that aren’t). For example, if you play kitchen table magic with a group that cares about the ban list, we’ll then they care about it, so your friends will tell you if a card is banned. Online services like edhrec tell you if a card is banned, and content creators talk about it. Anyone who is that out of the loop that they wouldn’t be informed somehow also just wouldn’t care about a card being banned. I think the highly unlikely situation that someone builds a super expensive Nadu deck and shows up to find out that it’s been banned is a necessary evil in comparison to the benefits that invested players would get from a more catered ban list.

[@OverlyCriticalAnime]

Paradox Engine isnt banned because it gos against the spirit of the game. Its banned because its boring to play against and gains you huge value. That sounds strangely familiar.

[@Vernonnn]

I hope you're talking about the one ring

[@zakbrooks7354]

@@Vernonnn name a problematic card from the past 3 years and that line will fit it to a T

[@KromeDrone]

There's a ton of cards that do that same thing currently legal in the format. Paradox Engine is banned because it warps the game around it. It becomes the most important permanent on the battlefield ALWAYS. I'll tell you this, if my opponent has an Ulamog on the battlefield and another has a Nadu, I know who I'm targeting with my swords to plowshares and its not Nadu.

[@OverlyCriticalAnime]

@@KromeDrone The people that run the EDH ban list have been inconsistent when it comes to banning cards.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

​@@KromeDroneno Paradox engine is banned because timmy was taking 300 years to spin his wheels with it in a non deterministic way and nothing happened except wasted time

[@vapixdarmana4428]

A big problem with the banlist for commander is that the reasoning for banning or not banning cards is inconsistent. Of the 8 of the power 9 that are banned, none are banned because of their power level, but because of their accessibility. Now cards like Dockside which are breaking the $100 barrier and are so much more powerful than cards like primeval titan aren't banned for faulty logic of it not appearing at all levels of play. How could it when it's priced people out of getting it? Either ban cards for accessibility or don't. Don't make arbitrary exceptions.

[@dhantefranklin336]

The rules committee is a joke.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

Price is not a reason for a card to be fair, it is even stronger a reason for it to be banned. If a card would be unfair at a dollar apiece, it is just as unfair at ten or a hundred or a thousand, and claiming that this makes it fine is directly promoting the concept that pay to win is valid game balance.

[@vapixdarmana4428]

@@UnreasonableOpinions I'd prefer a consistently bad ruling, than an inconsistent good ruling. inconsistent rules make the game unbearably confusing from beginner to advanced players. My favorite example is the rack (for some reason targets an opponent) and mystic remora (for some reason does not). They do similar things, were printed relatively closely to each other (within a year between 1994 for The Rack and 1995 for Mystic Remora), and yet, the rack targets a player and mystic remora does not, even though mystic remora's original text has the word target, and the rack does not.

[@jourboi5056]

It’s weird there’s a ban list for a casual format at all. A ban list is meant for structured play

[@slymcfly123]

$100

[@UrielColeridge]

Nope. Nadu is absolutely miserable. Prophet of Kruphix causes less of a resource imbalance and less of a time imbalance, and this bird starts off in the command zone and costs 2 less. I refuse to play against it in any shape or form - If I wanted to not play magic and watch someone else play, I'd go judge a tournament for 12 hours. It's infinitely more interesting than sitting in a Nadu table.

[@elmothejunkie]

"Don't ban Nadu cause banning is about getting rid of cards in the spirit of the format, but the only reason we won against it was we all ganged up against it and I had the response that finally shut it down. It's totally a fair card..." yall are whackadoodles

[@Mississippi_Jack]

I don't see how holding other players hostage and taking up 75% of the playtime with a combo that will win you the game 95% of the time is in the spirit of the format. Throw him on the banlist for the same reason Paradox Engine is there

[@froghermit9852]

Yeah it's lame if every time some pulls out nadu the entire table MUST respond or lose the game.... some feels wrong about this card for sure.

[@brianpendleton2674]

Only needs a ban in modern.

[@nickhughes8179]

This is why Mark Rosewater should stop designing cards. Everything he makes has some kind of way to storm off.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

Exactly

[@b0lkan]

My experience with The One Ring: Play it, draw a card, circle back to me, draw two cards, die before my next turn.

[@slymcfly123]

True 😂

[@QuintessenceHD]

I wouldn't mind Nabu banned as a commander, but in the 99 he should be fine imo

[@mellowyellow5427]

Crazy.

[@brianrobinson4710]

Like worldly tutor don't exist lol

[@rossmabon4472]

Yeah I hope your play group is fine with banned as Commander cause the RC only maintains a flat ban list. Wish they had kept banned as Commander

[@galerbo]

If it's not the commander then there a lot more answers. Farwell, swords to plowshares, path to exile, praetors grasp. extract ext. And then its just gone.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

@@brianrobinson4710 You can tutor for it, but what other commander could you realistically build to fit a Nadu deck? And what if someone just casts Swords to Plowshares on your Nadu? Do you just lose the game since you now lost Nadu permanently and you're stuck with a bunch of cards that are probably ass with your commander too?

[@CharlesLeeRay812]

I predict Edgar Markov gets a reprint in Innistrad Remastered next year.

[@Winterhe4rt]

naah, make it a 3 card secret lair 89,99 at some point...

[@CharlesLeeRay812]

@@Winterhe4rt Innistrad Remastered Secret Lair Bonus Card

[@codysing1223]

You know how many times we've been to innistrad? I don't think he's getting a reprint, like ever.

[@CharlesLeeRay812]

@@codysing1223 Innistrad Remastered is coming 2025. And putting him in there makes sense, since they've added commander cards to Remastered sets that are from the same Plane.

[@codysing1223]

@@CharlesLeeRay812 I'll be happy to see it, just saying I doubt it. I'll check back when it drops.

[@Martin-qb2mw]

If you build around Nadu you are essentially trying to draw your deck and you are then by default playing cEDH. There is nothing else to it.

[@105Strike105]

Casuals need to stop bringing nadu into casual. If you play want to play casual nadu. Don't add cards like shuko, greaves or umbral Mantle into your deck

[@akselhansen304]

The complexity creep in magic has been insane so the argument that EDH players somehow can't comprehend, that a card can be banned as your commander but, still be legal in the 99 feels so silly to me

[@kanyda1]

When you forget to do your homework and rush to do it in the hallway before walking into class: the moxfield jump-scare promo at the end

[@adamwarehime6444]

I dont think any of these should be banned in commander, but Nadu will be banned in modern

[@CKarasu13]

Nadu could be banned for similar reasons as Paradox Engine. Inexperienced players can take ages to resolve a turn. As to if it gets so bad that more people will complain, I can't say.

[@Dekaar]

I respectfully disagree on at least 2 of the cards on the list. Dockside and the One Ring are actually fine. Sure they're very strong, however they don't have that MASSIVE impact on the board as other cards on the list. Edgar Markov is a big victim of him not being printed that much and eminence in general being a mechanic that's too powerful. They need to either expand eminence or keep the mechanic low so that the deck pretty much will dry out due to no available markovs. When it comes to Nadu and Farewell tho... both of them have an inpact on the game that pretty much ruins any fun. Farewell is basically a hardreset for the game, completely making all comebacks nearly impossible and forces a situation where everything starts new. Due to it being so heavily printed, it's pretty much in every white splashed deck. It's just an unfun and oppressive card. Nadu however... it forces repeating turns, guaranteed 95% and more of all the gametime will be on the Nadu side, and when Nadu is somehow handled by boardwipes and stuff, the nadu player will have way too much of a card and land advantage that it hardly matters anymore. Worst part about Nadu is, that he can whiff. Meaning that you have to play EVERY Trigger and not fasttrack it. Here's a thing that simic players don't want to hear... but simic landfall / draw is boring to play against and they basically do nothing but ramp and draw. Nadu is hypercharged simic boredom. They've banned cards for much less. Nadu is the prime example where the RCR has to finally wake up from their hibernation and do something about at least this. But I guess they're to busy playing it themselves ...

[@adamwarehime6444]

@@CKarasu13 I don't think paradox was bad either an I play a lot of cedh. Nadu isn't that bad in commander.

[@abluedragon78]

Paradox wasn't a problem in cedh, it was a problem in edh

[@CKarasu13]

​@@adamwarehime6444 Paradox wasn't banned for power. It was banned because enough people were bad at playing with it.

[@gnomersy1087]

"I don't think cards should be banned at all therefore this is fine." Not really the bulletproof claim you think it is.

[@engiopdf8745]

"Just rule 0 it" Okay bro at that point why even call it a format when one table could have Time Vault untap and another has Ur-Dragon and shocklands banned? What do I expect before going to my LGS with a deck that could have cost over $1000 for any powerlevel? Oh right I can't expect shit because the RC won't do their job and the real world we live in is that my LGS could be anything between Blue Farm cEDH or Timmy Battlecruiser because there's no standard powerlevel in the most popular format (singular).

[@thatguyhereandthere]

​@@engiopdf8745there's no standard power level because it's supposed to be a casual social game and you talk about what decks you're playing beforehand, sort of like Pokemon having version specific Pokemon to encourage you to trade with friends

[@gnomersy1087]

@@engiopdf8745 Yeah I hate the "just rule 0 it" argument as well. You can just as easily use rule 0 to unban something as to ban it in a play group. So banning something has very limited negative impact for an established group of players whereas the positive impact for pick up games with strangers of having problematic cards banned is huge.

[@CaptainGulasch]

The big Problem I have with Farewell is that you are not restricted in how many modes you can choose so most of the times it just turns into a full on reset of the game. meanwhile we have merciless eviction that has the same cmc and needs 2 colors and has to choose only one mode. farewell is just very uninteresting since it doesn't make you weigh your options as much as something like austere command, where you cant choose all the modes, so you have to choose the 2 that are most impactful or you have to choose a second mode that hurts you the least because you cant choose only one. farewell needs to be used responsibly otherwise it turns a 45 minute game into a 3 hour grindfest.

[@nickhughes8179]

I agree here. Getting 4 modes is way too much on a boardwipe, especially at 6 mana. It should’ve been kept to choose 2 of 4. It also killed Merciless Eviction and Austere Command which are strong modal boardwipes already.

[@51gunner]

The problem I have with Farewell is the problem I have with most board wipes that get played in the wrong decks. Farewell is just the most thorough board wipe, so it feels the worst when someone slams it for all modes. The number of decks that probably should be running it is small; I think they need to be focused mostly on something not removed by it, or prepared to just not pick the mode most harmful to them and have other removal for it. My rule of thumb for board wipes is that you need to be able to break parity on them, or else they don't belong in a deck. Planeswalker-heavy Superfriends decks can get away with nearly any board wipe. Creature-light control decks like (some builds of) Shorikai can rock a Supreme Verdict just fine, their commander is a vehicle and a value-engine. Meanwhile a deck that runs its hand out fast to asset board pressure should basically never have a symmetrical board wipe - Voja shouldn't drop a "just-in-case" Blasphemous Act or Wrath of God in there, because they're so dependent on their board that if they're out-boarded, something went crazy wrong. As an aside, this is why I will focus players out of a game when I feel like I'm ahead - I don't want to go all-in to try and beat second place out of the game and be vulnerable to third/fourth; take out the player whose board sucks and who kept a greedy hand, because they're yet another player who could topdeck or draw into a wrath and they're most likely to cast it. I had an opponent on 5 life go for a hail-Mary Cascade, flipped Farewell off the top, and went for all modes because his board was just one creature.

[@CaptainGulasch]

@51gunner it doesn't help that the types of decks that utilise farewell best, planeswalker decks, are the slowest and grindiest slogs to play against if they are not focused out of the game immediately, making farewell feel even more frustrating, since you know you get to sit through another 3 20 minute turns that don't progress the game, but only stop you from doing anything.

[@Jlizard27]

@@51gunnerI’m learning that people play very differently in different pods. My friends and I don’t like to focus someone out of the game so quickly, even if it means they will disrupt our game plan. If I get beat because I didn’t focus down the person with the jankier deck or who gets unlucky draws, I’m okay with that.

[@zemelongamer1696]

@@nickhughes8179 Austere command is better than Farewell in a multitude of situation, because if you're running it should be much more one sided for you because you can dodge the destroy creatute clauses plus hit another category, Farewell is just the absolute Panic button where you are stuck and need an absolute reset to get back in it takes everything down but most of the time it's, it's no where near and auto slot like cyc rift or toxic deluge are, it a full reset boardwipe while many other boardwipes are proactive and put you in a better position.

[@JoeMac_]

2:05 Cardu 1 11:24 Card 2 18:47 Card 3 24:24 Card 4 30:10 Card 5

[@Original-Yellow]

You rock😊

[@merrmellow8354]

"cardu" LOL

[@Jundsac]

IDK who answered the survey but it's hilarious that Edgar and Farewell are on this list while Thoracle and Necropotence aren't

[@xhamxsolox849]

His name should be changed from Nadu to "Nahdude" because when the deck comes outs nobody wants to play.

[@dreigm512]

Not only did I not know when the Moxfield ad was going to be, neither did Mia nor Beezy

[@jacobbrj]

You are forgetting that prime time gets better as utility plans get better. And lands have been getting really good.

[@RyuichiShinomori]

I’m going to chock it up to a lot of people not playing against it because it’s been banned so long. Prime time warped games in a game where mana and combo pieces weren’t quite as easy to come by. I’m old now, I remember those days

[@ethanglaeser9239]

Wanting to ban Edgar Markov is a bit crazy to me. I think Eminence is a bs ability, but the cards aren't bannable in nature. They may be higher power in certain regards, but they don't break the game.

[@robertburns22]

@35:30 this for sure has to count as a jumpscare haha

[@ersatic]

For real. That big jump in volume got me despite knowing that they didn't include the moxfield ad yet and wondering when it was coming.

[@ethanglaeser9239]

My biggest complaint about cards like Rhystic Study or Dockside Extortionist is that they appear in places that they don't belong. They are high power level cards that people sometimes jam in what they claim are mid-power decks. Stop playing them where they don't belong and people won't be as pissed at you.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

RC claims dockside scales with power level but we have SO many artifact tokens running around

[@simonteesdale9752]

This is exactly why half the commander banlist exists. It's largely a list of cards the social contract fails to filter out.

[@elijahriner4178]

My play group to a T

[@nickchaput219]

But they belong in every deck of their colour? I don't understand what you mean; why would you actively choose play worse cards in your deck?

[@ethanglaeser9239]

​@@nickchaput219 Therein lies the intrinsic problem with the Commander format, the meta is not real. In any other format of Magic, people learn what cards, strategies, and decks are powerful and successful, and the meta builds around those. You have the top tier powerful decks, and the decks that are designed to defeat those decks. You can always play 2nd, 3rd or 4th tier decks, but then you lose. Commander's innately casual nature does not work this way. People don't choose cards, decks, or strategies because they are trying to optimize their win percentage, they build whatever they want because it's fun. However, if one person plays hilarious jank, and another person plays a powerful deck, that game will be lopsided. There is an argument to be made that Rhystic Study is the best card draw spell in the format. Therefore, it "belongs in every blue deck". But if you continue down this line of thinking, you start replacing your mana rocks with fast mana because it is more powerful. You replace your Arcane Denial with a Force of Will, and you replace your Merfolk creatures with a Thassa's Oracle combo, and you have arrived at a CEDH build. If you play something "because it is the best", you are playing Commander as if it is a competitive format. Rhystic Study is "the best" in the same way Mana Crypt is. They are incredibly powerful cards that virtually every strategy would benefit from. But if I am building a Treefolk tribal deck or a "Every card has a one-word name" deck, it isn't about what is "best", it is about building the fun and flavorful deck you want to play, which is at a naturally lower power level. To play Casual is to deliberately not play the best cards. Those two concepts cannot be separated from each other.

[@BTypeHStyle]

Rule 0 is becoming way too much of a scapegoat for this format. I want to go to a gamestore and have a certain expectation of commander. I don't want to sit around a table while we all hold hands and talk about what we personally don't like in decks. Nadu is a problem and is one of the strongest magic cards printed ever, PERIOD. Allowing cards like this to exist and also be encouraged (???) is insanely bad for the degeneration of the format. Commander is SO homogenous now, and refusing to ban cards that are just overwhelmingly good in every deck they go in is absurd. You also have to think what kind of message this sends to WOtC as a whole too. "Well, they didn't ban it, in fact, a lot of people seem to be creating and playing decks for Nadu. Maybe they want more like this?" Why even have the banlist to begin with if everything is always going to boil down to, "Just rule 0 it." Why even care about Karakas when you can sit down and just tell people you refuse to play with Karakas? Same deal, right? Oh wait, it's because we shouldn't have to unnecessarily keep having to have discussions that take longer than games at this point when we can just come in with a base level understanding of what is TOO GOOD in this format.

[@sirswag4931]

100% disagree with thinking The One Ring needs banned. The price point alone keeps most players from EVER owning one themselves, virtually locking casual players out of it. Not to mention, if someone's spending roughly $130 on a card, you can bet your bacon they have more money in that deck to back it up.

[@RazorDevil1]

i mean just because a card is expensive doesnt mean it shouldnt be untouched. lol thats the logic everyone uses with dockside. "its expensive so we'll see less of it" doesnt stop people from just playing counterfeit versions lol or proxying it

[@sirswag4931]

@RazorDevil1 no one I play with follows the "ban list" outside of sanctioned wizards of the coast events. Where in fact you do need proof of ownership if you proxy. If a card is warping a format competitively, then yes, I can see a need for a ban to balance out the meta. (modern) However, EDH is a casual format where players should be open about the power level of their decks and the cards they run. Banning something because it's good and locking other people out of a card they want to play is not in the spirit of the format

[@Lord_lost13]

@@RazorDevil1 although you are right about price should not affect whether a card should be banned or not, the one ring is fine. I think the idea of banning any card is a bad idea and tbh they should unban stuff to shake things up and see how everything works out

[@zackkelley2940]

Rule 0 DOESN'T work. If you have a regular group you likely already have a pretty good idea what the others will/won't like to play against. If you're playing with randos it won't matter. Sure, SOMETIMES the stars will align and you'll end up with a group that's amenable to a rule 0 discussion, but it's far too inconsistent to be reliable.

[@ethanpeterson8106]

The one ring needs to go. It just makes every deck it’s on better and can go in any deck. On a side note prime time is ridiculously busted given the taboo on land destruction/hate in the format. That card deserves to stay banned

[@nzephier]

Nadu obviously needs a ban, but, if theyre not gonna ban it, then unban something like oh i dunno griselbrand

[@Lechugameister]

Free Griselbrand, Free Golos

[@volosguidetomonsters3440]

I bought a copy of Griselbrand for Standard and I can't even play it in commander

[@nickd6303]

Griselbrand seems fair when compared to some of the recent stuff.

[@brianpendleton2674]

In modern... only in modern.

[@51gunner]

@@volosguidetomonsters3440 He's playable in Legacy reanimator! ... unless they've replaced him with Atraxa.

[@master_rafiki]

I for one would love to have a 'banned as commander' list.

[@camdenharper7244]

Saying that we can't have different ban lists for cEDH/commanders is like saying we can't have different banned lists for different 60 card competitive formats.

[@erichunt1974]

I was amazed Nadu wasn't a misprint. When I first read the card, I had assumed that the effect only worked twice per turn amongst all creatures instead of twice per creature. Not fully sure it needs a ban but definitely strong. I miss when you didn't need a master's degree in english literature to fully understand what a card does. Unfortunately, they can't all be as easy and intuitive as Krenko, Mob boss.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

That’s what I thought and I still wanted to play it lol

[@archerfeett]

i understood what the card meant immediately it’s really not that difficult

[@Jlizard27]

@@archerfeettwhy try to make other people feel bad for not understanding something you did? People have strong and weak suits, like how social awareness is not your strong suit.

[@valetboy21]

So you never had the pleasure of playing with banding, Chains of Mephistopheles, or Waylay. There have always been overly complex cards in this game as far a wording goes (looking at you Goblin Game). When I first started playing, I couldn't get my head around the difference between destroy and bury.

[@AvidHerpetologist]

Im honestly shocked Thassa's Oracle (or Consultation) wasnt on here. I know cEDH players get bent out of shape when people mention it but it feels like the single most universally played win condition because it requires practically 0 settup. I personally would ban Dockside and Thoracle and unban Prime Time, but thats just me. Also its unironically crazy to me that TOR hasnt been banned yet 😅 seems like a no-brainer that it needs to go

[@ThePurpleGM]

The funny thing is that if they did a small change to Dockside to say the treasures enter tapped it at least be 20% less broken. They should just develope a keyword for creating treasures and make it so that treasures just into play tapped normally.

[@gemkid85]

It wouldn't be broken at all. It wouldn't loop without a third card, which makes it quite fair. Eratta him

[@ThePurpleGM]

@@gemkid85 it would still be really strong to blink it at the end of someones turn to uptap with a lot of treasures. Still it'd be way more fair then compared to what we have now.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

​@@gemkid85then we'd just run ____ goblin instead

[@weeklyweeks7545]

I don’t understand how golos is banned but not nadu. They are very similar in ramp and card advantage.

[@simonteesdale9752]

Because Nadu gets filtered out of casual games by being seen as a broken card, while Golos doesn't. The commander banlist is optimised to protect casual play.

[@derrickpaulson3093]

Because Nadu came out an hour ago? It took a reasonable amount of time to ban Golos too.

[@Hapkins-le6xf]

Time. The rules committee is very slow. Golos was around for quite a while, came out in core set 2020. Nadu has been here for less than a month. Golos was also the most used 5 color commander at the time it was banned. If Nadu does not catch on, despite being very powerful, likely won't be banned.

[@gabrielkopp9248]

Even though they both give ramp and card draw, you can’t say they are very similar in it. Nadu gets to a point where you can chain a ton of ramp and draw together with 0 mana effects. Golos needs a lot more setup/takes more mana. Nadu is a whole lot sleeker and imo is more deserving of a ban

[@rossmabon4472]

Golos was banned mainly for the Homogenatity it created. Before it was banned it was over 50% of all WUBRG Commander decks on EDHrec or something like that high. However I honestly also do not care for the bird and the insane value engine it creates with barely anything.

[@edwardgreene2884]

What's fascinating to me about farewell, is that while it is clearly the best board clear ever made I don't think that on its own is a reason to ban it. However the fact that if it was banned, there are like 6 or 7 board clears that come to mind that would then be competing for that top spot seems like a much healthier place for the format as a whole

[@tylerbrooks145]

Bingo.

[@ComstarAgent]

Toxic Deluge and Cyclonic Rift are better than Farewell

[@derrickpaulson3093]

“Better” is quite subjective. In a medium or lower power meta I would agree with your assessment, but higher power metas would consider Farewell often too slow.

[@zemelongamer1696]

I personally love Farewell, because it is the absolute Boardwipe needed due to no sideboard, there are boardwipes that get around indestructible, there are ones that are one sided destroy, there are ones specifically for artifact hate. But this does all so if you are behind it doesn't matter who at the table is playing what set it to 0. Also I think Cyc rift takes the cake right now easily for best BW as it's almost as absolute as Farewell but doesn't effect you.

[@w.s6124]

Innalla is way scaryer then edgar markov to play against.

[@tylerwestcott8737]

Agreed you can win the game with 3 mana.

[@brendanrobot1]

Nadu abilty probably be fair if it was target of spell not ability.

[@dustinfindsrocks]

That would just change the broken combo from Shuko to Isochron Scepter I think 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Akoustikus]

UN! BAN! PRIME! TIME! I don't mind dockside in my circle generally, it mostly enables goofy johnny combos that may present a problem but don't just win on the spot. Otherwise the players using it as a crutch are newer players, and it enables some cool gameplay moments for them, allowing them to whirlwind slam that huge spell they are super excited to cast for the first time, giving them a chance to feel the power of being the big bad at the table and get to experience both sides of that coin and feel the pressure of fighting to maintain the advantage, seeing the gears turn as they piece together a loop combo, even when it wins them the game, that's a super hype moment... once or twice hahaha. Cheers!

[@_0_0___]

I have friends that refuse to play against my slivers but they use nadu, man wtf

[@Jlizard27]

I have friends who can be kinda obnoxious about what they refuse to play against (I keep telling them to play more removal!), but I guess at least they’re consistent.

[@aner_bda]

Nadu + Scute Swarm = 45-minute turn and deck completely drawn and all lands on the battlefield.

[@TheCartajay]

I want grave titan banned, what were they thinking?

[@jamescalder5624]

Grave Titan is a fair card lol

[@NitpickingNerds]

No it isn’t it makes two 2/2s 😭

[@yodabuddy2112]

Prophet of kruphix I believe is on the same level as Nadu, you can basically make the same arguments for both cards and it would make sense as to why either one would be banned. If Nadu isn't banned, then Prophet of Kruphix should be unbanned.

[@dhantefranklin336]

Hell no! I thought people were overreacting with prophet being banned. Boy, was I wrong when my play group allowed me to play mine for one game. It might as well say, "Take three extra turns. Skip your draw phase for each of them."

[@KromeDrone]

Nah, Prophet turns your turn into 4 turns. Inherently a lot stronger than Nadu could hope to be.

[@yodabuddy2112]

@@KromeDrone And you would rather watch the Nadu player essentially draw half their deck for 15 minutes due to a turn 3 combo? It's essentially the same power level at this point

[@KromeDrone]

@@yodabuddy2112 No, because taking one 15 minute turn and taking 3 extra turns are fundamentally different. If the Nadu player is taking a 15 minute turn, then tell the player to hurry up and castrate them for slow play. The deck isnt hard to pilot, not discern when the advantage you'll gain will win you the game.

[@yodabuddy2112]

@KromeDrone Prophet of kruphix only gives creatures flash on top of untapping lands, doesn't give you card draw at all, meaning unless there's other things out it basically is the same as having a seedborn muse with a leyline of anticipation. Nadu on the other hand let's you draw and ramp at the same time for basically the same mana cost and has them durdle around for exactly the same amount of time, doesn't make a difference to me

[@buschleaguers75]

why ban markov? he may be a problem in 1v1 commander but not multiplayer.

[@ryanmilewski9641]

If someone in casual showed up to a table with the One Ring, than in my opinion that is not a casual game. It sends the message that if you are running the One Ring, what other CEDH cards are you running. It would do casual players some good to get an understanding of CEDH to understand what casual is, cause a lot of commander players from my experience don’t know.

[@burglesnatchandcompany5062]

Instead of banning cards let's all collectively become better deck builders together. We can find solutions to "problematic" cards and make new solutions. Since there are over 20,000 cards theres gotta be something we can do. I'm a believer in if it was printed, run it. Don't be salty, just learn from it. Also as a player I really enjoy seeing my opponents decks pop off. It makes me happy to see their hard work come to fruition.

[@dougnapier6441]

Nadu is risen reef on trenbolone, absolutely one of the most ubiquitous generical good simic cards that just bury other players with card advantage but completely struggles to win the game until you draw 75 out of the 99 cards in your deck.

[@michelemichienzi934]

The only things I dislike about farewell are that it's mono white and that it's in standard right now. Should have been black white

[@vakuzar]

I'm all for keeping all these cards. They are so good though that I get it if they ban it. I for sure think prime time needs to be unbanned.

[@DaGraveCrowder]

I got Nadu as my pre release promo and everyone was trying to trade me for it lol

[@PapaBlach]

I sold my foil alt art I pulled from my collector sample pack during prerelease. I’m so glad I sold it then, its price is dropping.

[@TheDesertSpear]

I got 2 of them in the 6 pack draft bundle, sold both to Card Kingdom at like $18 each

[@KayZiTV]

If nadu is ok, why should paradox engine still be banned?

[@zakbrooks7354]

Only argument I ever hear is because "paradox engine can be thrown into any deck" which, to me, isn't really a good argument as to why Nadu SHOULDN'T be banned

[@tymenvanessen3119]

@@zakbrooks7354 in that case unban Prophet of Kruphix. it can only be run in the same decks that can run Nadu, it can't be ran as commander. and it has the same problem where the player playing it takes more time on every turn cycle. making a huge resource imbalance. except prohet doesnt actually give extra lands once she has been removed.

[@zakbrooks7354]

@@tymenvanessen3119 i agree. It makes no sense to have one banned but not the other. All of them are giant pains, but Nadu is getting special treatment at the moment because he makes Wizards bank

[@simonteesdale9752]

Nadu is okay because people self-filter it out of casual play. (Which is what the banlist protects). People know it's broken, so don't build it. Meanwhile, Paradox Engine reads like a cool value build-around, so people *did* jam it in casual decks where it isn't welcome.

[@Vernonnn]

@@zakbrooks7354 That's not even the reason it was banned so you never even looked at the real reason. Why share your opinion if you never even bothered to look around, let alone look at the rules committee's reasoning.

[@voxkine9385]

I feel “banned” cards just need to have a good place to get advice on where to use it. Nadu is not a problem, it’s just that it is easily abused and can easily get out of hand. If there was a good resource for people to reference to find a “how to build cEDH Nadu” and “how to build a casual, non-nightmare Nadu” deck. I live in a playgroup that tries to aim for a ~7 power level. Nadu and 0 equip shenanigans would be absolutely banned in that group, but in a 10 power level group, it shouldn’t be banned. I personally intend to build a Nadu deck explicitly for a 7power group. I’m seeing a Simic “magecraft” deck, with a focus on titanic growth spells or polymorphic spells. As long as you don’t abuse it, Nadu isn’t a problem. It’s only when you focus on the super easy 0 mana/infinite mana combos that Nadu is a problem.

[@francisserpa4465]

I totally agree that banned as commander should be a thing. It makes a huge difference whether you can cast a card once after you draw it vs repeatedly with constant access to it. Also, banned as companion. Justice for Lutri! (Especially with Izzet otters coming in Bloomburrow)

[@FRAAANKYSUUUPER]

Even the Nerds didn't know when the Moxfield and was gonna be this time 😅

[@nheimi99]

Every mono red deck would be crippled by losing dockside. It’d become the second weakest mono color by a large margin.

[@envoy2500]

Jesus Christ! Why did that Moxfield add have to be a f*ing jump scare?! Do they get louder the later in the episode they are?! Holy shit!

[@Rocknjax]

Farewell played responsibly is perfectly fine. I have seen way too many people use board wipes just because they have them, not because they need them. That's when I have a problem with Farewell.

[@ronjo1504]

I'm sure the one ring is fine with your playgroup, if you don't abuse it, blink all the time etc.

[@Dark-Pikachu1]

I disagree with unbanned prime time because Urbog and coffers with green black deck

[@codysorenson4298]

The funny thing is farewell takes care of all of these cards

[@cdonovan72]

Not when Nadu is a commander. And are you going to be able to respond to it by the time you have 6 mana?

[@gnomersy1087]

lol Farewell as a solution for Nadu.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Counterspell takes care of all of these cards to, doesn't mean there isn't any issue

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

Yeah sure, Nadu is drawing its whole deck on turn three while you are still holding Farewell in your hand. Not to mention, you will never resolve Farewell against Nadu if they have half a brain, but they don't really get punished that hard, since the deck ramps so many lands. All you are doing is slowing the game down while Nadu has the most resources: you are basically letting them win

[@codysorenson4298]

@@florinalinmarginean1135 so it's doing simic stuff

[@JaimeAGB-pt4xl]

Farewell and Edgar are both Mia cards.... Coincidence!?!?!

[@sethmassacre]

Rule zero discussion if someone's paying Nadu, "sorry your parents never said they were proud of you"

[@juliantucker5695]

Nadu in the 99 is fine. As a Commander I would scoop before I played it.

[@gemkid85]

It's all over arena right now 😢

[@nicholasogram2925]

I have the one ring and it rarely sees the light a day in my commander deck the games are over so fast that we typically dont get past turn 4 someone in the group always combos off.

[@joshuawenninger9346]

8:46 There's actually a really easy solution to building a fair Nadu deck. Just don't run any equipment.

[@zemelongamer1696]

Galdriel lookin at Nadu being like what is my purpose.

[@xhamxsolox849]

Also, you could combo command beacon with something like lithiform engine to get Edgar off the field.

[@michaelabernethy6699]

I think Nadu should be banned because he breaks deck building. Part of putting a deck together is deciding how do fit in card draw and ramp. With nadu you don't need any of those cards at all. He ramps and draws, so all you need in the deck is 1-2cmc spells that target and high value creatures.

[@xirtakeht]

You realize there's at least a couple more Simic or 3 color Commanders that fit your description, right? Don't get this wrong, this is the best as far as I can imagine. And I wouldn't play it since I don't need another super powerful deck, but ban it ? For what because it's strong? I don't see it.

[@jk5385]

​@@xirtakeht It's not that it's too strong (it is pretty close), its just a time vampire that commands most of the table time in EVERY game ive played against them. It's poor design.

[@alexanderparker9421]

I don't think any deck *needs* to be built any certain way.

[@paulszki]

At this point, any discussion about bans is a discussion about cEDH, which most people (including me) have absolutely no clue about. There are so many, many, MANY busted cards in magic, most of them playable in EDH and somehow, at the kitchentable it doesn't really lead to issues. Limited Resources is banned, Armageddon is not. How often do you see people play Armageddon against you?

[@simonteesdale9752]

I think that there's some value in discussing potential bans for cards the social contract fails to filter out appropriately. However, basically, any commander banlist discussion should start with going over the banlist philosophy.

[@51gunner]

The problem is that there's basically two formats: - Competitive Commander: a 4-player variant of Vintage where you can use nearly every card from Magic's history to beat a whole table. - Casual(?) Commander: the entry point for many players to Magic that WOTC prints tons of preconstructed decks for. It's hard to run a banlist that keeps the latter category happy while not dismantling the former. Meanwhile lots of truly truly miserable stuff can exist that won't rate a ban in the former but nobody wants to see in the latter.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

No honey No ban discussions are about cEDH In fact, all the shit people want banned are LESS of an issue in cEDH

[@paulszki]

@@V2ULTRAKill you've completely misunderstood my point

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@paulszki and your point is objectively wrong The people calling for bans, and the people discussing bans Are kitchen table players The cedh scene has been chill since the flash ban We do not care, we advocate for non banning A discussion about edh bans is a discussion about casual pods

[@STS-qi1qy]

I'm fine with you playing Nadu if you also play with a chess clock. Go over time on your turn and the turn ends or you concede. It's not a bad card if you don't take forever.

[@KnowBigDyl]

I play blue green clone/copy deck. Nadu being cloned goes crazy and almost auto wins. Sakashima and kodama with nadu being my tutor target makes me go into doppel gang. i get straight to omniscience and auto win getting to fate of nexus or laboratory maniac. Can honestly say it’s really really strong. But since it’s not my commander i feel it’s pretty fair IF i didn’t play copy/clones.

[@zenalias3131]

At 5:34 "Nadu demands" aye, the pet cat demands

[@Thleepricon]

The one ring is a auto-include in all decks, the only thing that keeps it from being one is that its expensive so it becomes a monetary question which should be just banned

[@johnrogers9262]

Guys I swear every time I start a video I look away for 5 seconds and look back and field of the dead is on the screen 😂😂

[@charliemarlow647]

I'm one of the few who really likes eminence as a mechanic. I like that it encourages a deck building restriction that gets paid off in parts of the game that the commander normally doesn't affect. The cards just need to be balanced well, and preferably also have a payoff for playing them (e.g. Edgar as an aggro finisher, Ur-Dragon as card access once you have a board state).

[@mathieuboismenu839]

Arguing Dockside to be banned just because it hurts enchantment or artifact decks (which are both strong anyway) is like saying we should ban Rakdos Charm to protect token swarms

[@MC-dt6zq]

The table needs to decide if they're willing to let a Nadu player stay in the game.

[@unanon_user]

you can build Nadu into a casual deck that nobody will hate. but, doing so requires a lot of discipline and effort. I ordinarily hate ramp and fast mana. so what I want to do is instead of including the usual RAM cards like cultivate? I would have put in its place another car that gives some kind of payoff and targets a creature. that way I get the payoff and the potential for playing a land.

[@Icious82]

The argument against Dockside is that Prime Time should be unbanned. Therefore since Farewell is sticking around, unban Upheaval.

[@Byteside546]

IMHO our pod thinks dockside is scary but not as ban worthy as rhystic study, as dockside sees opponent's boards only - so it can't be built around, and without solring/crypt/etc + players with green that don't run the talismans, means our docksides usually make 1-6 mana and explosions are putliers, I've found jeska's can often makes more mana with how many cards people draw

[@Byteside546]

We also house banned the one ring two weeks after release realizing its a colorless staple that goes in literally every single deck where that slot could at least be a color staple

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

Dockside is way more powerful than Rhystic Study. You can easily beat down the Rhystic player with a little bit of coordination from the other players, but Dockside will either turn the game around the turn it is cast, or it will win outright. There are tons of ways to break it, like looping its ETB and getting infinite treasures. With infinite colored mana, it is pretty trivial to win that game.

[@MaliciousCricket]

Why doesn't the nadu ability only resolve twice for all the creatures instead of each creature? Do I assume correctly that's unplayable in modern. Just shower thoughts

[@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299]

Problem with Dockside is the design: - the CMC is so cheap only 2 mana?!?! Should be at least 4cmc for the value you get. - Affects all Opponents. Did they test this in 4 player games? If it had targeted one opponent you would on average get around 2-4 treasures that is OK. - Not a Cast trigger so can be flickered for more value - Red has too many fast mana options with Creatures ETB Treasures and red spells like Jeska Will, Mana Geyser, etc. :P

[@zpeedy1]

I was excited to watch that command zone episode with Edgar because I have an Edgar deck myself and often hear the hate. It seemed like the early game was strong, but as soon as players start interacting with it, it runs out of gas. I have this exact problem with mine. He really isnt that strong, especially if you dont draw into some good draw spells to keep you supplied with vampires. My advice is if you are struggling against Edgar, it's likely because you dont have enough removal or board wipes. And if you have an Edgar deck, I recommend Champion of Dusk, Minion's Murmers, Moonlight Bargain, and investing in a Necropotence ❤.

[@LH50645]

I agree with a lot of the reasoning in the video, especially for farewell, dockside, and the one ring. I differ a little on Edgar though because I think the three big reasons for a ban are: too powerful, too format warping, and too unfun or feels-bad. I think cards like Edgar and Yuriko feel really unfair and unfun to play against even if they aren't completely broken power level so I would lean toward banning them for that reason. The same might be true of Nadu but I haven't played against it yet so I haven't seen how prevalent the rumored 30 minute turns are, so I'm ambivalent. But I've definitely had my fair share of matches with Edgar and Yuriko and they are really unfun. I could potentially see it not being as bad if the player announces their commander ahead of time so you can pick something appropriate against it, but at point it feels against the spirit of commander to picking a deck to counter someone else's

[@nickchaput219]

No, none of these should be banned. In fact there's cards that should be unbanned.

[@schumerus6786]

First time I saw Nadu I was excited, a new Simic ramp deck! Then the crazy combos quickly killed my enthusiasm. I want my Simic to have value, not a Thassa’s Oracle turn 5 win… Farewell is a card you have to play, it’s not incounterable either, so that’s that. It does what a board wipe should: Even the field

[@Halrian-Christopher]

Farewell is very undercosted, its super effective and almost anti commander in a way.

[@venkelos6996]

Im still going to personally like Eminence. I only really had fun playing Magic with a small group of friends; going to the local store, and playing the people there proved to be toxic, and unsatisfying, but my 2-3 friends were great. The "problem" was that we shifted basically exclusively to EDH, because it was the obvious multi-player format, despite having a few mechanical issues I don't like (singleton format). Now, EDH wasn't a problem, but as we played it more, a certain trend developed; Commanders had to die. Sure, there might be "kill on sight Commanders, and between us, the likes of Urza, LHA, Chulane, and Korvold could crop up, but eventually we got to the point where EVERY Commander was treated that way, and they basically became ONLY a filter for your available color identity. No matter what they did, they got specifically crumped, until only Green players could likely expect to have enough ramp to keep up with the staggering command tax, and as someone who played less Green, and less aggressively/skillfully, I felt this a lot more than they did. If I could basically confirm that my Commander was NOT going to get to see field time, but I wanted it to feel like contributing more than the teo colors I could use, from the zone proved valuable, and since I was the least talented player, showing up with the Ur-Dragon, Innala, and Edgar Markov didn't trip red flags. I totally get why other people don't like them; Commander tax is seen as important, even though Green ramps uncontrollably, while Land Destruction is frowned upon, and interplay IS important, but for my specific circumstances, occasional Eminence actually made the format bearable for me, whete otherwise the best i might expect out of my Commander was baiting out the card that dealt with it, so another play might get through.

[@aflyingstarly5535]

I think dockside makes the game all about him after he is summoned

[@noahboone524]

None of this is ban worthy. Only thing that needs a ban, based on how the rule committee bans things currently, is Thassa’s Oracle. Nadu is maybe a little too powerful, but that’s not quite enough to get banned in commander.

[@LiberatorGalore]

Dockside extortionist & Farewell do NOT need banned, I play CEDH and I play “fun” EDH and those cards come clutch depending on scenario, they aren’t win con cards, you can rebuild from farewell, and you can negate the “ETB” of dockside. However, I agree with Nadu, and the one ring hasn’t done anything much too be banned unless you can keep blinking it with a displacer kitten, then it becomes annoying.

[@user-lx3go2ii3s]

There are plenty of surgical extraction effect or other way to deal with the one ring also not nearly as powerful in commander as a 1 of. Nadu may deserve an all around ban but I would give it a year and let the meta actually solve the problem itself.

[@pilcrowe]

Thank you guys for the video. An interesting take on the Nadu topic (happy so see my opinion as well).

[@Steve-gn4hk]

3/4 flyer for 3 is good by itself. This bird guy is just ridiculous.

[@JoshuaPantalleresco]

I'm the other way on Dockside and the One Ring. I literally played against the One Ring in a casual pod. That player was the first one eliminated. The Protection from everything is absurd, but the ring was answered quickly. Dockside to me wins the game when it hits the board. It's the card you always reanimate. It's the card you always blink, and it's the card that you tutor for. It allows for greedier mana bases than there should be, and while I'm not against a cool combo, I think the card makes it far too easy to pull off. It wins every time it hits the field in any game I've played. The One Ring can win the game for sure too, and I wouldn't be against the ban, but it feels less bad. My only thing with Nadu is how long his turns take. I don't mind combos, but I want it to win. Nadu can falter, and to me it's like extra turns. If you're taking a bunch of extra turns, please win. I get salty when it doesn't. It feels like a waste of time. I feel Nadu is in this category. And I sincerely hope Wizard doesn't print a three mana green blue card ever again. They never do them right.

[@johnallard9805]

My biggest problem is eminence commanders. I guess they shouldn’t be banned, but they feel like I’m playing against someone who is on easy mode. I imagine it’s similar to playing against nadu

[@hanschristopherson8056]

Not sure yet but it seems like nadu self regulated to cedh

[@hellcast1000]

I agree with your points on not banning Nadu, but than I compare it to Roffelos and I don't know which is worst. To me it makes sense being banned by comparison to what is banned

[@austinchuilli3652]

There are combos with prime time but all of them are finite where as dockside and all combos that are strong in commander if unanswered they are infinite/pseudo infinite. Prime times combos only go as long as you got lands in deck but many of the pseudo infinite combos loop so many times its functionally infinite.

[@SwampyFlex]

That moxfield ad gave me a jumpscare