NMM is Better than TMM - Miniature Painting Mythbusting S01 E04

In our next episode of Miniature Painting Myth busting, we tackle the age old debate between TMM and NMM - is one really better? Why?
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[@SMooreArtDesign]

I love Trov's point, "you can paint a 3d model to make a 2d illustration for a photograph", pretty instagrams don't mean "better"

[@VinceVenturella]

Absolutely, in the end, models have different purposes, it's one of the reason there is no single right answer for sure.

[@austinthornhill7038]

This just came back up on my suggested videos. I loved these mythbusting videos when they were released. I love any video when you are just chatting with another artist.

[@VinceVenturella]

Glad you like them!

[@codelicious6590]

I love how Trovarion said that painting NMM on armor is like painting an illustration on the armor, not really painting the armor. Ive always thought of mini painting as basically paint-by-numbers but with light. Basically, you are painting not the subject, which is already the shape you are painting, but the way that light is reflecting off of that subject. Im not very good at it, but I am getting better and the whole hobby intrigues and fascinates me deeply.

[@VinceVenturella]

Exactly, and that's the journey we're all on to be fair. :)

[@MultiZegamer]

So, 2 years later. I love NMM I think it is awesome. But you are right mate. I agree. That’s it 😂

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

Next Myth for y'all to conquer: Dice rolls are exactly the same with unpainted models as with painted models. As everyone knows, having painted models = better rolls.

[@arazlam4754]

I'd argue having painted models that have seen a game or two, roll better. Fresh painted mini syndrome is still a thing 😉

[@VinceVenturella]

Yeah, all my new painted models always roll bad and then die. ;)

[@bencoomer2000]

Maybe after the first game. First game you might as well surrender after the first turn.

[@nlnrose]

Painted models mean better rolls overall, but your worst rolls go to your favorite models then your painted models then your grey models.

[@Ed-xo9pc]

From my point of view, Myth busted. my dice rolls are just as bad with painted models as they are without. Sometimes even worse. I once assembled a Lizardman army for an Warhammer grand Tournament many moons ago. It did pretty well against several other competitors in its construction and grey plastic playtesting stage. Cue several days of furious painting and one finished army later and boom, they went from a good/slightly above average performance to abject numpties over night. Even against fairly easy to beat opponents

[@tando6266]

TMM for when you want a real metal in miniature, NMM for when you want artwork metal in miniature. I would also argue that proper TMM requires just a high a learning bar as NMM, its just people miss label slopping on some metal pigment instantly makes it TMM.

[@VinceVenturella]

I think you are right about the high end of the skill curve there, it certainly requires just as much knowlege to get either really popping in proportion and with the proper lighting set.

[@dougsundseth6904]

To my mind, the principle advantage of NMM is in photography. Without specularity, it's much easier to control your photographed highlights and you have complete control of the color of the "light" and view angle. Secondarily, it's very effective in limited POV settings like shadow box dioramas. These considerations are also why NMM is often used in, and works very well with, flat art. But for general use I really don't like it as much as TMM. And of course it's much more work to get quality results. (To some extent, in competition, this ends up as, "Watch me juggle four balls while I ride a unicycle and recite Shakespeare sonnets!") All that said, learning how to do NMM well is tremendously helpful when trying to paint different surface textures. If you're trying for a figure that is intended to be wearing black wool, black silk, black linen, and black patent leather, for instance, understanding and being able to execute NMM is directly applicable even though there's no representation of metal there at all.

[@VinceVenturella]

I think this is all dead on. One of the interesting things about NMM is what you learn just trying it, it makes you focus on a lot of important stuff that can help improve all your techniques.

[@Phsstpok]

I gathered that much. Still, I don't think I am ready for practicing NMM. Currently, I am getting less and less hobby time. When I get down to paint I feel like any ability I might have acquired has degenerated. It is like taking up sports training after some time of hospitalization... very frustrating... :(

[@Shadenuat]

I just like how metallic adds another texture to model. Whole mini, skin, face, cloth = smooth blends; and then boom, bloodied metallic weapon. Stands out and looks so real.

[@VinceVenturella]

Totally fair, I think it's one of the appeals of TMM is that it just has such a natural feeling.

[@Fadeing]

Vince Venturella could this be counted another form of contrast on the model? Reactive to the moving viewing angle vs completely static & non-reactive. Like the far ends of gloss for metallics vs the desire for flat matte control on all the non-metallic non-wet surfaces generally.

[@Shadenuat]

@@Fadeing idk about contrast, that's usually values and color, but it's certainly something like ++to Visual Interest.

[@AviadMD]

Awesome video guys, loved the fact you covered so many aspects of the debate! every time I wanted to jump in the comment section to add something you ended up covering it a second later like weathering and larger objects! Really great stuff, love the series and the dynamic between Vince/Christoph

[@trovarion]

thanks, bud!

[@VinceVenturella]

Glad you enjoyed it! :)

[@AndICanTalk2]

This is such a wonderful series. Ty both for doing it.

[@VinceVenturella]

Thanks, this is a really fun series to do for sure.

[@BjornKuma]

Interesting discussion and one I've been thinking a lot about recently. My background is in illustration and I've done tons of paintings with NMM in 2D, but then I move to the minis and the IRL ambient light makes me prefer TMM there. I can't control the lighting on the table. So Ive chosen to concentrate on the material types being represented, with only accounting for lightsources coming from the actual mini or base itself. I like the results for the table. If was doing a diorama or comp piece, I will likely do NMM to control everything as scenes are more specific like an illustration. Good stuff!

[@VinceVenturella]

I think that all makes perfect sense to me. :)

[@BeyondtheRecord]

this has become one of my fav series on youtube. It's nice to hear your thoughts on this topics!!! p.s. there's something that messes me up everytime: the countdown in the intro is not on the same tempo as the music theme!!! 😱😱😅

[@VinceVenturella]

Awesome, happy to help as always. :)

[@jcsminiatures366]

Great insights as always. I find TMM photography to be incredibly difficult, especially silver/steel. Usually a lot of my supposedly dark areas read very bright compared to how I perceive it while looking at the piece. This making it seem way more desaturated & flat. I really do wonder what I might be missing. Perhaps time to give your videos on the topic a rewatch 🤔

[@VinceVenturella]

I may have to do a video but I will need to solve it as well! - I experience the same thing, photographing TMM is really hard.

[@Midgaardsormen]

Nice exactly 45.000 subscribers, congrats!

[@VinceVenturella]

Thanks! :)

[@juddery]

For myself, my preference on minis is NMM and here is why. No matter how expertly a figure is painted, I feel that there is still a certain cartoonish or animated quality to them and I feel that TMM is too realistic and so doesn't fit well with that asthetic, whereas NMM retains a certain animated quality that I personally find appealing. That's what it boils down to at the end of the day though. Personal preference. What you find most appealing. edit: typos

[@kimbartlett9527]

Great series, great topic, great artists and content creators.

[@VinceVenturella]

Much appreciated! :)

[@trovarion]

Thanks, bud!

[@griffMcTall]

Recently started my first attempts at NMM and I like the result way more. It just makes a way more powerful and eye catching look.

[@VinceVenturella]

It's really fun what you can achieve and the best part is how much you learn working on it.

[@ColonelSandersLite]

My general thought on TMM vs NMM is something that was only *very* briefly mentioned here. Sure, you can highlight NMM from multiple angles so that it looks good at any one angle. What I don't think NMM can really do very well though is motion. When I pick it up something done in NMM hold it in my hand or move around a game table looking at it or whatever, NMM actually sort of wigs me out. On the other side of things, I really like seeing the sparkly glint of TMM spear points and gun barrels and stuff on the table as I'm moving around it.

[@VinceVenturella]

This is true, our brains expect the highlights to move.

[@hailhydra7959]

I started watching this and realised I need to come back to it when I’m a more knowledgable painter 👍

[@VinceVenturella]

We'll be here. :)

[@jorgealarcon2704]

(some) miniature painters are obsessed with NMM and the status that mastering it comes with. But that conversation is not meant to be had right now.

[@VinceVenturella]

Yeah, in the end, I never like miniature painting snobbery, that serves no one.

[@Anecron1]

Could NMM be used and look good on a model that is used in multiple settings? I'm thinking of D&D minis that need to look "right" both indoors and outdoors, day and night and so on. Or blood bowl minis that spend a lot of time on their back as well as standing up.

[@VinceVenturella]

I think the answer is absolutely yes, I think the angle thing is largely a myth, but you have to check it in lots of lighting when you are painting to make sure the illusion holds up.

[@Anecron1]

@@VinceVenturella But how would you go about it? If the model is placed on it's back or it's front, would you then be able to have the highligts follow around the edges of the model so it still looks "right" with a lightsource from above? Idea for the next video perhaps? =)

[@beastmendelegate1946]

Is TBS better than WGN? Is AMC better than TCM? OMG or GMO? These are questions for the gods and you guys are doing god’s work.

[@VinceVenturella]

All the acronyms. :)

[@benjaminbrunet-manquat1711]

Hi Thx a lot . I will take your old gold technique for my space wolves . Thx a lot keep going

[@VinceVenturella]

No problem 👍

[@theharrower]

Love this series. Have a ton of respect for Trov since he approaches this as more of a fine artist than a hobbyist and I can relate. My only gripe is the volume levels on this episode. They’re all over the place.

[@VinceVenturella]

Sorry about that, that's my fault, I tried to normalize them, but I clearly suck at it. :)

[@theharrower]

Vince Venturella all good man. The content is great regardless.

[@Tormod29]

It is funny as I am still working on my NMM but I have been enjoying using what I have learned from NMM and applying it with TMM. Giving me much stronger reflections where I want them on my TMM. So in the end I split the difference.

[@VinceVenturella]

Totally, one of the great values of NMM isn't the product, but the learning.

[@docbun]

Link to the page mentioned at 5:37 (feel free to add to the description): razzaminipainting.blogspot.com/2016/07/non-metallic-metals.html Since I'm at it, the playlist for mythbusting (hoping to have found the right one): kzbin.info/www/bejne/m2aYhZp7f7B6kJo

[@VinceVenturella]

Apprecaited, thank you. :)

[@MikeScarbro]

You mentioned a few times adding links to resources in your description, but I don't see them. It might also be nice to include a link to Trov's KZbin channel as well. Otherwise, this was a great episode and helped me understand why people choose NMM vs TMM.

[@VinceVenturella]

Good call, just in case you need it, here is Trov's channel - kzbin.infovideos

[@andresperedo1275]

What was the name of the author of the reflective NMM helmet (min 9:00)? It would be really good if you link the examples you mention in the description

[@VinceVenturella]

Kiril Kanaev, I apologize for not having the link.

[@andresperedo1275]

@@VinceVenturella Thanks a lot!

[@kylarstern671]

I am actually currently painting my Imperial Knight with nmm. I havent bought metallic paints in over a year and spontaneously decided to paint my Imperial knight and since I cant be bothered to go out of the house and buy paints, I will need to paint the whole thing in NMM

[@phildsc]

Very interesting topic, thank you. Maybe you can adjust the audio in the next one. Some parts were very quiet.

[@VinceVenturella]

Darn it, I tried really hard to level it all out, I must have missed something, sorry about that.

[@RieksVisser]

Same here, especially your 'side observations' were a lot softer and Trov was definitely the loudest.

[@chucklamb3496]

I look at both as tools in my toolbox!

[@VinceVenturella]

Absolutely right. :)

[@jamesgordley5000]

Can TMM win in competition though? That was the question I was hoping to hear answered.

[@VinceVenturella]

Yes, we did mention it (I think, it might have hit the cutting room floor), but we mentioned it in relation to GD/Competitions (again, I had to trim stuff, so i might be remembering something that was edited out). But the short answer is yes definitely. I have seen plenty of pieces win competitions that are in TMM. The trick is you still have to show your skill with it, you have to control the light and set an interesting figure with lots of solid visual information.

[@jamesgordley5000]

@@VinceVenturella Thanks, Vince. :)

[@jimmietalbot1370]

So for a schlub like me I see bad nmm as an extremely valuable learning tool, I have to keep refining for it to look passable, it forces me to do the work that develops the skills and instinct to place light correctly. Does having done the tmm knight provide any building blocks or even just a previously nonexistant visual reference for tackling a similar project in nmm?

[@zakhoskins6404]

One dislike is a fan of badly designed scrap metal and was upset his style of choice wasn't mentioned. Screw him. Great video you two!

[@trovarion]

Thanks mate!

[@VinceVenturella]

Thank you, very much appreciated. :)

[@nicholassinnett2958]

I think both are perfectly valid options, but TMM rarely works well for above-tabletop-level paint jobs IMO, unless it's executed with an extremely high level of skill. Unless you take a NMM approach to highlighting and shading it, or hold it under absolutely perfect lighting, it has a tendency to break the illusion of scale, unless it's only used on a few very small details. Same with blood effects, anything more than one or two tiny touches, and it starts looking less like in-scale blood and more like you accidentally spilled raspberry jam on a little toy. And on the opening point about scale modelling, it seems like TMM is way more likely to shine there (pun intended) than it is with 28-32mm-type stuff, and it makes sense. Scale modelling is generally at larger scales than Warhammer, Infinity, Malifaux, etc., and the further up you go in scale, the more in-scale shiny effects tend to look.

[@VinceVenturella]

That's fair, but I've think you can execute at that level, I've seen some really impressive TMM.

[@Southboundpachyderm]

You look like you're not only an expert hobbyist, but also the top world of warcraft guild leader in the world. Lol. Totally subbing to you just on that. Also, this has been really informative. I'm still learning the world of miniature painting coming from being a military aircraft model guy. I've never been a good painter. Im fucking horrible at it actually. But im learning, and miniatures have been a whole new challenge which has really engaged my brain and helped me through the last year. This is a great hobby to be in to. You get a little bit of each hobby out of it. Get to build shit, craft shit, shit shit, and most importantly make cool shit that looks fuckin good in my studio.

[@andrewstambaugh240]

I'm personally a fan of metallics in general (not just paint). So I am definitely biased, but appreciate any quality paint job for what it does well. I agree with the points stated, and I thought of a few more points to add: 1. You can use NMM techniques with TMM! but you will have a hard time doing that unless you actually practice NMN 2. Stylistic choice: if you are going for a very classic-comic-book look, nmn fits the flatness and allows better allows for exaggeration. 3. Depth: the true visual effect of seeing a model in real life reveals 'cheats'. Example: real life anodizing has depth. Painting an orc sword with TMM then adding an ink or wash of blood will create a depth that the eye will pick out as 'better'. 4. You kinda said this, but very simple coating with TMM is often a little lacking (due to the scale vs true scale lighting effect differences) and some exaggeration tends to look better. So, to some level, a problem of TMM is that it allows for lazy painting. But it's also great for it! I like perfectionist painting single models, so being able to quickly batch out the boring regiment painting is a big plus for gaming, even if they could look better with more effort.

[@VinceVenturella]

Agree on all points! :)

[@alexandregillemadstudio1765]

Thank you for the video !!!

[@VinceVenturella]

Welcome!

[@gaijin_lfc]

The way the metallic pigments are constantly reflecting light gives me the same issue that Trov has with gloss varnishes: it becomes hard to see where the “real” highlights are, and thus I find it frustrating to try and get a smooth result with TMM. NMM is, for me, more honest, what you see is what you get. And that makes it much more enjoyable to paint. Though which is “better” looking? It’s hard to tell in a well-taken photo. Both are great

[@VinceVenturella]

THe responses to this have been fun, watching the various people respond in favor of one or the other is interesting. :)

[@warhounds]

I started with TMM because NMM is way more advanced and i knew that it would me impossible to get it right in the first time, when i tried TMM i used like 3 paints and it looked good but not as good NMM, that way i started to understand the concept of light and contrast, i would say that TMM is the first step to paint and understand NMM where you can master both technices (sry for grammar and bad english)

[@VinceVenturella]

Makes perfect sense to me. :)

[@doctorkobayashi8460]

Would it be possible to use, even "elevate" NMM painting techniques with TMM paints? Does anyone know an artist who does that?

[@mitchellkraemer9099]

The technique for TMM is similar to NMM as well it’s just less time and less blends. I build up from a gunmetal to a silver on edge highlights. Takes less time and you can still control the lighting more then just slapping on one type of metallic paint on it. Putting one layer of a metallic paint isnt really TMM. Black base -> your main metal color -> some sort of wash (optional) -> lighter tone of metal dry brushed -> silver edge highlight. this is what I do for armies. Looks good, looks used and lived in.

[@doctorkobayashi8460]

@@mitchellkraemer9099Well, yeah... But what I was looking for is exatctly the blending, shines, highlights and reflectivness ilustrating technique of NMM but substituing black with something like warplock bronze (darkest TMM paint i can recall from the top of my head), white with stormhost silver, retributors gold for mid tone and so on. If you understand me (not native english speaker)

[@mitchellkraemer9099]

Doktor Kobayashi I’ve never seen it down to that level, my guess as to why is metallic paints are not evenly pigmented . The most evenly pigmented as something like a scale 75 flat paint, you get more variation in a metal paint. You lose a lot of control, but in the control you lose you gain effect of metal flakes. I agree that it would be an interesting experiment. using the true metallics from Vallejo would be what I would pick for it.

[@iceaxeminiatures7694]

@@doctorkobayashi8460 Yeah, I do that all the time, adding dark inks to my metallic paints to make the shadows darker and less glossy, and go to chrome or silver or whatever my top highlight is.

[@VinceVenturella]

So the answer is not many people, but if you look up Paul Stockley, he's been doing a lot of experiementation with direct combinatons of these two things with cool results.

[@alexanderk.7782]

My local Store make a Indomitus Challange one Model to paint. my Budy play the Necrons i play the Marines, which Marine Model would you pick for Competition from the Space marines from the Box? :)

[@nlnrose]

Judicar. I think be looks awesome. The issue is he is probably going to be the one a lot of people will pick as well.

[@arazlam4754]

Lieutenant, doing an osl glow from the pistol could turn out pretty great based off his stance :)

[@VinceVenturella]

I think all of the advice below is great and any of those would work based on your tastes. :)

[@alexanderk.7782]

@@VinceVenturella by the way i mixed white ink (Liquitex) with vallejo pale burnt metall but i get a kind of silvermetal not white metal, for the Space marine i search for the helmets (Veteran) and Schield a kind of glowing metall white ... help :)

[@trovarion]

YAS!

[@VinceVenturella]

Took me long enough on this one. :)

[@BarokaiRein]

Honestly I think that NMM is more about showing off your skills than it is about painting good looking minis. I've seen some incredible NMMs but even with those it's usually incredible because you know how much time goes into it, not because of how it ends up looking. In my opinion the best looking way to paint metal is using TMM paints but painting them with NMM technique. What that does is it emphasises the metallic nature of the paint in a way where it looks fantastic in pictures much like NMM but since it's TMM it looks great regardless of the angle you're looking at the mini from.

[@VinceVenturella]

I tend to like both as I said in the episode, but I certainly paint a good deal of TMM in a NMM style, it's some of my favorite stuff.

[@davedogge2280]

It's the start of the video and I don't quite know the difference ! I just use Vallejo Metal Color for things I care about and the acrylic metalic type for things I don't (i.e. GW Leadbelcher and Vallejo Game Color Gun Metal etc). what I'm saying is that I say use GW Leadbelcher for the base of a Rhino's tank tracks. Update: I had to watch a Miniac video to know the difference.

[@VinceVenturella]

Hmmm, maybe I should have unpacked that at the beginning, good note. :)

[@jacobrichards8359]

I was hoping we'd see you and Trov arm wrestle, Vince.

[@trovarion]

stay tuned for the next episode....

[@VinceVenturella]

We'll get there eventually. ;)

[@Celtic_Iron]

TMM but using Opaque Paints in the mix and following the NMM contrast style works great

[@VinceVenturella]

Absolutely, I have several videos on the channel doing just that. :)

[@Alvinfrichard]

I thought he had Banderquip Cranderlish on the show and now i can't unsee it

[@VinceVenturella]

You lost me on that one.

[@Alvinfrichard]

I mean to say I thought you had Benedict Cumberbatch on the show, there’s a certain resemblance to how Benedict looked like in the Dr Strange movie

[@Serra7racon]

Wow, no one talks about Shapeshifting Vince? :D

[@VinceVenturella]

I try to keep that on the down low. ;)

[@mrchoochoohead9033]

ive been following your techniques for painting tmm by incorpirating nmm principles. my first attempt was amazing compared to before. honestly its not that good but i feel a little less intimudated

[@VinceVenturella]

Wonderful! Always happy to help.

[@stalhuth]

I usually use both techniques for my figures and sometimes I mix both techniques

[@VinceVenturella]

Love mixing them. :)

[@LANCIOMODELSART]

I think that it's not a question of one technique is better than the other ..both are great if well executed. It's just a choice, sometimes one works in a better way rather than the other. I agree that it is not true that mnm only works in one perspective, we treat it in the same way as a drapery or a skin tone, fixing lights and shadows..it works in the same way. Whoever says it, is probably for envy, probably without a completely control of mnm, that isn't easy for sure, needs practice and time, but a real good tmm isn't easy too.

[@VinceVenturella]

Agreed.

[@Monkeyman12534]

I think the Size of the knight also makes Tmm look better. Bigger panels to catch light more effectively.

[@VinceVenturella]

Totally agree.

[@zamo9660]

Fact is, size matters. (Wink wink). It was just a scratch in the vid, thanks to Vince's knight but size determines the use of one technique over other: light reflects in a different way a 1:1 belt buckle, a 28mm one and a 15mm, that's why the shading and highlights. I'd loved to heard a word on that. Is it feasible NMM at every scale? Would you use it on a bunch of marbles a mini has on his/her hand? Would look properly on a 15mm or smaller mini? Haven't really went that far myself but I bet it won't work as you need ROOM to show off that godlike control of light and suck tiny surfaces simply won't leave room to that. IMHO NMM lacks versatility. Its high technical floor is the reason for all the snoob stuff arround the internet's. You know, it's not how good it tastes but how nice it looks on your Instagram. And don't forget it ladies, always thin your pants!🖌️😏

[@buzzedaldrin7316]

I really enjoyed this video but was confused by something that was said. I think i understand the limitation from a technical sense (you control the exact placement of reflections and shadow vs reflections vary due to the amount of actual light reflecting from a gloss surface). But in practice, if the artist is determined to spend comparable time on the nmm, where/how is control lost if the artist can manually shift the appearance of every "pixel" of the model with glazes, stippling ect? It might sound like im splitting straws but with the words used but the artist still has full control if some areas are more reflective than others, because they still choose which areas to accentuate and which to dull down? scontent.fmel8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78700000_3218344164858863_8045013798890766336_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=JUKA4pAQo3IAX8vCKsE&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel8-1.fna&oh=a9897347d22cc3f160e6cced1eefd38f&oe=5F54EBA2 scontent.fmel8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/94203378_3533044430055500_1670196057088196608_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=nzTpLE7PGnIAX-herNx&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel8-1.fna&oh=f818e56d748f46241eefad92195a9852&oe=5F51D439 Here is some examples of tmm and nmm from the same painter. With both examples it looks like the artist has achieved a similar level of control over his reflections by varying the gradient within the bands? Is there something im missing or misunderstanding or is this something that i would maybe notice viewing the model in person instead of a fixed photo?

[@VinceVenturella]

So this is what we were talking about when we mentioned using NMM techniques on TMM. That being said, if you had those in hand, the difference would be immediately apparent, even with the light controlled, as there would still be some shine and movement to the TMM as the figure moved, where as the NMM will always stay stationary. It's the movement that is the other peice.

[@CordovanSplotchVT]

What if you used nmm techniques to paint with tmm?

[@VinceVenturella]

That's exactly what you should do (I think we discussed that in here) and I have several videos on doing just that on the channel. :)

[@CordovanSplotchVT]

@@VinceVenturella Oh nice, thank you, that's very helpful.

[@bencoomer2000]

Soooooo... Is it that both are toosl and understanding when you should use it is a good idea?

[@VinceVenturella]

Yep, that exactly.

[@russellspencer3214]

I'm happy that I paint little plastic/metal figures to play games with. Anybody wanting to be a snob about TMM when it allows me to get models on tables with minimum effort (yep I know, minimum effort!) is missing the point of why I paint miniatures.

[@VinceVenturella]

Nothing wrong with that at all. :)

[@Krasshirsch]

While true metallics on their own do represent reality better, in combination with regular paints, it looks odd to me. Parts of the miniature then have moving highlights, while the rest sits still, my brain disconnects.

[@VinceVenturella]

I think that's fair, you will see that, even when you control the light with shading and highlighting on the metal, so I get what you are saying. :)

[@NossCalavera1670]

So TMM > NMM, got it!

[@VinceVenturella]

Wait a minute!!! ;)

[@James-dk2kx]

Do I like the look of NMM better? Yes. Did I paint the grenades and other bits on a 5man squad of primaris infiltrators with NMM? Yep. Would I paint an entire army that way? Definitely not. Looks good, and I wanted to practice for character/hq models, but it takes it's not worth it to me for a troops choice I'll have a whole bunch of in an army that will rarely get noticed.

[@VinceVenturella]

All sensible to me. :)

[@MrMockigton]

also: trov makes a point of saying that if we strived for realism, we would be doing scale modeling. id like to add this: NO miniature painter is every capturing realism. be it NMM, "realistic" skin tones and the like - we always exeggerate. every detail, every shadow, every aspect of something, even the colours, to make sure people understand the model and its details. just take a person, have them stand 100 m away from you, take a photograph. thats realism. almost no detail, no shadows, and most definitely no eyes.

[@gamelover260]

I have been trying to do NMM and boy is it hard, especially Steel. But it want to become a good painter, so i keep at it. ITs kinda frusterating TBH.

[@VinceVenturella]

It's togh, but I will say that it generally pays great dividends on the journey of learning. :)

[@BrickworksDK]

I consider NMM to be a fad, just as OSL. It has it's uses, but very few people are able to pull it off convincingly. And it does seem to be one of those things where people can get a bit snobby, thumbing their nose at those who use TMM.

[@VinceVenturella]

I definitely don't agree with anyone being snobby, those people are missing the whole point of fun and art. That being said, though I am sure it's overall popularity will come and go overall, it's a technique that's been around for hundreds of years and certainly its still in almost every piece of 2-D art we see, but no part of that makes it something you have to use. :)

[@MeisterReaper]

In my opinion nmm and tmm have same thresholds of skill, however tmm are easier on the beholder eyes which makes it more forgiving than nmm and I also believe that nmm are better for photo because how cameras works compared to the eyes.

[@VinceVenturella]

Definitely agree on the photos, TMM is often so tough with photos.

[@MalchazarZJ]

I disagree with Vince here about the Knight...sort of. I don't think that it has much to do with the raw number of surfaces on the piece, though that certainly would be a massive pain to try and paint an entire Knight skeleton in NMM. I think the problem with NMM on something like a Knight skeleton arises just from the sheer size of the piece. I'm sure there are probably some HQ choices in the 40k universe that their model probably has surface counts approaching that of a Knight but the size of the piece is what allows NMM to work so well, where as on something as large as a Knight with big flat surfaces where the light SHOULD move across it as you move the piece, NMM just can't proper catch this at scale which is another reason that scale modelers choose to use TMM as opposed to NMM. It's not that it couldn't be done, it's just that as you move around the piece your brain expects the light to behave in a certain way and you can't achieve that on larger pieces with NMM. I know it's kinda nit picky but i do think it worth mentioning the difference due to the amount of highly detailed (many surfaces) small miniatures that exsist within 40k and other games. So in general i think he's right about when to use TMM, but for a different reason. But what do i know, I'm no painting pro, it's just my 2 cents.

[@VinceVenturella]

I think that is also a really good point.

[@synns6898]

Personally prefer true metallic, as it’s metal 🤷🏼‍♂️ but done really well nmm can look very artistic.

[@VinceVenturella]

I think that's just it, in the end, both are good and our preferences can win, but it's also good to think about where things can be a better aligned natural tool for the job (while still not being the right tool for you). :)

[@lawrence4301]

This is a good discussion but the sound quality is jarringly bad, nice channel though! :D

[@VinceVenturella]

Audio quality is something I am working on still. :)

[@lcmiracle]

All I can say is being able to dictate the position, value and style of metalic highlights and shadows is no doubt superior to not being able to do so.

[@Pikilloification]

Until you turn the mini around and the highlights don't make sense anymore.

[@bentosan]

I get what you are saying but for the uninitiated you can dictate shadows with TMM though glazing on transparent dark layers into the shadows and the finished result looks excellent.

[@lcmiracle]

@@Pikilloification Does it matter? Normal highlighting & shading has the same issue, just less apparent. People's brain can easily filter out stuffs like that, the intended direction of view with small generalizations would do just fine.

[@lcmiracle]

@OriginalYithian TMM has a disgusting shine

[@wischfulthinking]

Where is the TMM sword guide?!?! Al I can find is nmm.

[@VinceVenturella]

I've done a few different variations of TMM weapons, if you go back to this video on Orc Weapons, it covers it well - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqTKd4ODqNN0gac&pp=gAQBiAQB

[@Capt_Phoenix]

your thumbnail actually has a typo, 'Bettet'' instead of 'Better"

[@trovarion]

Thanks, we fixed it!

[@WhispersfromtheWarp]

i feel like nmm only looks good from certain angles

[@VinceVenturella]

We mentioned this in there (I think), it depends on the style of NMM, for example, Darren Latham and Gareth Nichols both use a 4 light set-up that will honestly hold pretty true regardless of angle. LAN often tends to do incredible NMM that is meant to be viewed from one angle specifically for the box art (just examples, all of them vary of course).

[@Zogatn]

How I hate it when everyone is trying to squeeze the NMM into every part of the figure. An example is Space Marine, their NMM armor is so exposed that they look like a mirror from a distance. The light that should fall on the painted armor should be soft, because it is paint on the armor and not a mirror. A well-painted figure, in my opinion, should be painted in accordance with the light reflection. Not everything is glowing, not everything is dull.

[@VinceVenturella]

Well, I think in those cases, people are waiting the blue to also have a metallic high sheen, it's just an interpretation of the light. I don't think either one is right or wrong.

[@MrMockigton]

there hasnt been ONE instance of NMM where i thought: "oh wow, this looks just like metal" i appreciate the skill and time put into it, but it just doesnt do it for me.

[@ObjectiveMedia]

True metallics FTW ❤

[@StormcastMarine]

Trov: if you fuck up NMM it doesn't look like metal. Thanks for the insights mate. Whenever he speaks the arrogance just puts me off any value he has to offer, I noticed it first in his 15 minute rant video about how he's above contrast paints, haven't been able to shake it since. I'm trying though.

[@VinceVenturella]

I don't think that's where he's coming from, but I understand it can sound harsh in a vacuum. What we were trying to get at was of course that NMM takes a great deal of work to hit the threshold of "looks like metal" - where as metal paint looks like metal right out of the bottle (because the good ones are just made of metal pigment).

[@StormcastMarine]

@@VinceVenturella yes, I know I'm wrong to think that. He is an extremely talented painter, I need to get over my first impressions (says more about me than it does about him). Great video as always, I've learned so much from you, I can learn from Trov as well.

[@johnricc5868]

🤟🏻🍺✊🏻

[@VinceVenturella]

:)

[@batman9592]

Yeah but is it True Metallic if it's Mica and not actual Metal like Aluminium etc? Hahahaha

[@VinceVenturella]

It's a good question and why I only use aluminum based TMM paints. ;)

[@g0bbl3Plz]

The sound was all over the place on this. Normalize ya levels please

[@VinceVenturella]

I'll see what I can do.

[@g0bbl3Plz]

@@VinceVenturella Thanks Vincent. Love the content otherwise. If you're using Premiere pro to edit, normalizing the sound to zero DB is at its most basic: - Right-click a clip, - Audio Gain, - Normalize Max Peak to 0 dB Not a silver bullet but should help. There are plugins to help also knocking about.