No Crank No Start: 1963 Oliver 1600 Diesel Tractor!

Join me on this really neat no-start diagnosis featuring a 1963 Oliver 1600 Tractor!
Even on basic old-school machines there are many variables that you have to consider. In this case we run into more than one :)
Diode Testing Procedure from FLUKE:
en-us.fluke.com/training/train...
Enjoy!

[@SouthMainAuto]

Bravo sir! I just gave this a standing ovation! 2 things, the high amp test light brought a tear to my eye, letting the wire fry till you see smoke damn near made me cry! I am so happy to see you employ methods like that to solve problems Ivan. You will succeed in all that you do because you have the ability think outside of the box and not assume. I need to do some digging on that starter motor to understand that a bit better. Good stuff man!

[@chungaleta1234]

+South Main Auto Repair Never assume anything. That' s the secret. You just said it! Great vid Ivan

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+South Main Auto Repair hahaha Eric I just had to repeat the "magic smoke" trick for the camera :) I knew you would enjoy this one. BTW if anyone is interested I can build you my patent-pending "variable high-amp test light" for the low price of 100 bucks...way more useful than a LoadPro!

[@SteveRobReviews]

+motoYam82 Now Ivan you haven't quite proven that and until then it's just speculation and here say LOL. BTW all the old 6v starters I have dealt with that we're converted to 12v , well we changed the battery from 6-12v and the alternator but used the same starter and never had a problem.

[@TheDisgruntledMechanic]

+STEVE ROB yep we did the same Steve with 6V to 12V conversions.

[@SteveRobReviews]

The Disgruntled Mechanic Just so we don't confuse Ivan , Ivan you can go from 6V to 12V but if you invert the procedure your results may vary adversely. LOL

[@wtbm123]

may take a marker and draw a battery hook up diagram , on the under side of battery covers , for future .

[@itsjustmetomc4848]

One of my favourite videos! Thanks for posting!

[@547Rick]

That was fun! Nice change of pace. Thanks Ivan!

[@toroon]

Sweet video Ivan. Loved seeing something unique.

[@mrghiax]

Brilliant diagnosis Ivan. Surprised more people haven't subscribed to this well presented channel. Certainly one of my favourite channels on you tube.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+mrghiax I really appreciate the support!

[@emtscythe3782]

Excellent job Ivan, thinking outside the box will get it done every time. One of my favorite things on this earth is to work on vintage tractors.

[@freddysoto6584]

Excellent diagnosis. Always thinking out of the box. Most techs wouldnt have been able to fix this oldie..

[@baxrok2.]

Some great lessons here Ivan, thanks!

[@indianabob7166]

Ivan you have great trouble shooting skills. Great job. Thanks for not setting that old work horse on fire.

[@TheDisgruntledMechanic]

Great job Ivan! Yep learned a lot of this on my dads old Massey-Harris especially the positive ground.

[@davidgoldberg]

Great job Ivan, learned a lot!

[@mikepratali5582]

oh best one yet... tons of how too-s in this one.. really well done..

[@AntonioClaudioMichael]

Great video @Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics

[@williamwhite9767]

You are amazing Ivan!

[@bobmoy3406]

My old Lotus Elan was positive ground which is why I never had a radio, and yes it had a generator not an alternator. Great video on explaining how diode works.

[@kerrygleeson4409]

Great work Ivan thanks for sharing 👍🇦🇺

[@acarl-lo5tg]

Ivan, you switched the polarity from positive to negative ground which was necessary for the alternator used. If the tractor had an ammeter, then the leads to it would need to be reversed otherwise when the alternator was charging the system, the ammeter needle would show a discharge. On some of these older tractors with an electric fuel and/or temperature gauge, if you changed the electrical system polarity, the gauges might not function properly.

[@stuzman52]

Nice work there Ivan and the farmer looked pretty happy when it got cranked up. Keep up the good work!

[@jewllake]

+stuzman52 yup! Sure did :)

[@dezblyan5125]

stuzman52 i saw the smile on his face too

[@viewmaster6949]

Thanks for sharing this valuable information

[@AntonioClaudioMichael]

Shorted alternator Nice Find on the 400 amp dead short Draw @Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics

[@ricksovastion5953]

You cant beat a pro at their game. Great job and video!

[@somerandomguy3868]

Great job Ivan, in a case like this I consider the insulation compromised and would change the at least the wire that was smoking, having said that it's your job and I trust your judgement. Great video

[@AntonioClaudioMichael]

400 amps is a heck of a direct short @Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics

[@ronaldbirchall3089]

In the sixties, the tractors used to have dynamos/generators with external regulators, we used to have to flash the field to ground to polarise the generator. most of the time the electrical was a 6 volt system. yes and a positive ground.

[@vincescalise4821]

Great video great diagnosis Ivan, working on a piece of equipment from the last century that’s got to be like a slow day at the office for you LOL, very cool that you substituted the load With the high amp test lights Never understood the whole idea behind the positive ground systems, anyway great video

[@MrClickbang357]

comment!!! I forgot that your are working on a 2 battery system!!! Glad to see you got it running!!!

[@swadam1]

Ivan, fantastic trouble shooting, enjoyed this one, best of luck.

[@randygudeahn7304]

way cool Ivan. for sure and for certain!

[@shawnbauman5463]

I feel like I'm working on my 1941 Farmall H in this. LOL, it is still 6V system positive ground. That slow crank life....Nice video.

[@motorcyclesandridingfree2899]

Good one Ivan that's a gm self exciting alternator on that. It originally came with a generator. Now for the load pro it works as good as a test light to load a circuit which I rather use the original load and backprobe to check wiring integrity but that's not always possible. I must admit though I haven't used my load pro in a while unlike the scope on a rope as Eric calls it just easier to grab and go

[@ozzstars_cars]

nice fix Ivan

[@jewllake]

I liked It! Wish I lived in the pleasant country side.

[@GlynRobinson]

awesome video!!!

[@Y10Q]

You honestly should make some of these paid videos. This stuff is gold.

[@bradnoyes7955]

Nice, My great grandfather was an electrician at a silica plant and he used to carry around a couple pieces of copper pipe the same size as the fuses used in the plant. When a short would develop, they would replace the blown fuses with pipes, turn the power on and watch for smoke to roll from the overhead buss bars. It was "Standard Procedure" for finding shorts.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Brad Noyes Haha now that is awesome!

[@dcrickerson9775]

Great troubleshooting skills Ivan! Really liked your current limiting light bulb set up and diode check. I thought you might have melted some wires by letting the smoke out twice. Thanks for sharing.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+DC Rickerson It was so cool the first time, had to catch in camera for the audience lol

[@UBBERTANKER]

proof that understanding basic electrical properties can allow you to diagnose any system

[@donnierobertson3088]

Nice job

[@tecnaman9097]

Would like see a PCM after a 400 amp smoke show...now that would be something to behold!!! old time farmers usually wrench their old time tractors. Maybe he'd just forgotten, easy done. Nice one working on the old school machinery.

[@pneumatic00]

He didn't make you marry his daughter when you were done, did he? Just kidding. Your videos are great; and what's even better is you reveal your troubleshooting thinking which is super for learning. Good work Ivan!

[@trainer2018]

Welcome to my world Ivan,lol. Good job. If anyone asks you to work on a old Bus let me know.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+busjockey1 Old bus...hmmm that would be pretty awesome!

[@wyattoneable]

That system always confuses me but your diagnostic helped! Great work, the owner should be happy there were no parts to buy.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+wyattoneable Yes the owner was very pleased with the outcome :)

[@paulcarroll750]

Cool video Ivan. You get some interesting service calls.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Paul Carroll Actually this was the oldest vehicle I have had the pleasure of working on to date. The Oliver did not disappoint!

[@paulcarroll750]

+motoYam82 its definitely older than both of us. lol It reminded me of a john deere my dad once owned that was a no start. We narrowed it down to a bad ignition switch. The fix was a crescent wrench to jump the terminals across on the starter.

[@lonwillis783]

Once I followed one of those tractors doing about 50mph down rt 162 here wow

[@petrocksgarage]

Good video. I've never liked those battery terminal clamps. Maybe hose it down with Fluid Film or cover it with some Heat Shrink tubing to help prevent it from happening again. Especially since I assume this tractor stays outside for the majority of its life. An alternate way to find the short, since this tractor was so wide open was to use a Thermal Camera to find the hot spot before it burns up the electronics, catches on fire or both.

[@8power0]

VERY INTERESTING !!

[@BigfyjjfyCvghhufd4-jc9yj]

I just added 2 twelves to my 706.They had a odd narrow long six volt crossed up.I learned that time had evolved and they now make those in twelves so I just put 2 of those in as twelves not 24 lol

[@korvtm]

Smoke test reminds me of a time I was working on an electric scooter 36V. Windshield wiper motor quit,12V worked off a tap and fused block.Installed new motor and wiring,everything tested ok.When I started to drive scooter out of the shop,the wiring on the wiper motor burned up. After testing found that the 36V.drive motor had an internal short,when the motor was driving the scooter tha whole system was getting 36V. I was a little more careful about testing the system after that.

[@eddiemartinez265]

Good work ivan thats a wild old tractor got to look out for what was done before you. But where is big al or his evel twin??

[@fredblase5608]

fyi the old 2 cyl j d 720 early diesels would run backward oil would come out the air cleaner ! this happened to me twice thought i'd blue up dads tractor yikes !! the only way to kill it was 6th gear and clutch it, it would try to back up the problem was the injectors run off the engine camshaft on a third lobe the solution was to change the profile of the lobe on the retrete side of the lobe. lots of older tractor were changed to 12 v neg systems the starters would last longer had to reverse the ign coil and amp gage. for neg systems glad to see some one that understands the basics and can think in or outside the box! working on a kubota no start probably the fuel shut off solenoid like you found mite cut off the pin to get it going it has a lever to stop it till new part is found xmas time for parts ya know

[@Garth2011]

Good review. It would appear that when the battery cables were disconnected to replace the batteries, they were not put back the same as they were, since the engine ran before with the old ones. I'd recommend all of the battery cables be redone with the correct terminal ends, either crimped or soldered. Might want to re-terminate the alternator positive wire too since it got cooked with 400 amps. Interesting how the starter still turns the correct direction as do the other items using voltage. Positive ground systems always confused me.

[@daveroberts9921]

That's how you do it. Every connection can be tested that way.

[@MitzvosGolem1]

Now do a series parallel 12-24 v system ..fun sparky for new jacks I put copper antiseize grease on ends. excellent work Thanks Alternator positive ground diodes? I ran normal 12negative ground on positive ground no issues. Starter works fine.

[@dnsmithnc]

This is apparently a common problem. Had the same kind of thing on my tractor but mine happened intermittently. The connections looked good but, it was only when I jiggled the wires I got this kind of spark as shown in the video. I wish I would have gone about finding the problem as well as Ivan here.

[@sinegra30]

I am a bit confused about the starter motor and the polarity been switched and working fine since I have tried that on old cars with reverse polarity and starter does not work properly. Other than that excelent job mate!

[@ratbag359]

there is a few types of dc motor used some will run in reverse with reverse polarity others will always rotate the correct way.

[@nandor690]

Think you could show how you made your own pressure transducer?

[@TheGibby3340]

On the surface of it, swapping ground polarity might make one think the starter will run backward. On second thought... so long as the field and armature feeds are both swapped (which of course they are as this is a function of the starter internal wiring) direction of rotation remains unchanged. Am I right about that ? Another nice lesson. Don't think I'll try this with a P.M starter though.

[@humidbeing]

+TheGibby3340 Yes I'm pretty sure a PM starter would reverse rotation. Something to look out for.

[@dezblyan5125]

good stuff

[@SteveP-vm1uc]

The local church had their old tractor hauled over to me after it would not start. The older guy who ran the tractor to plow the church parking lot had changed out the battery and a few other electronic parts and still could not get it to run. Just as you found, he went from dead batteries to new batteries and still nothing. Then changed out the starter relay and hacked in a few extra wires and dabbled with a few other things, all before giving up and having it dragged over to my shop. WHAT A MESS!! Well, after a lot of head scratching and screwing around, I decided to forget everything he had told me he did and I started at the batteries. Sure enough, 3 were loaded with corrosion. Hell, one wire was so bad I don't know how any power flowed through it! After that came the (HOLY SHIT!! SOMETHING IS BURNING)!!! Well, I was thinking about exactly that as you flipped cause something was burning on your project!! So, I found everything you did and fixed it all up. The thing that was nagging at me was that it had run the day or two before it came to me and the burned up wiring looked old. Some of the bare wire was even green and looked thin. When the old guy came to pick up the tractor I asked him to tell me his story on it again. He gave me all the same story as he did when dropping it off. I then told him I was shocked and could not explain the burned up wire other than the batteries being hooked up + to ground. He all of a sudden says, JEEPERS,,,, I think I put the cables on wrong!! I said, Well, yes! Both the alternator and starter were 12 volt and the alternator is definitely a negative ground. He says, NO, I mean I have been jump starting the tractor off my car for about a year now and I remembered we switched to negative ground, but I think that's on the other tractor. I bet I put the wrong cable from my running engine to the tractor when I got all that smoke!!!! I had to laugh. I think he did it more than once!!!!! So, why I wasted everyone's time telling you this is because if they had simply MARKED THE CABLES, they would not have wired the batteries backward to begin with!!! This is also the reason I use to tell people to change 1 ignition wire at a time.... ;)

[@MrLarryC11]

Sweet!

[@greygoosemafia]

thats crazy lol. great job

[@wysetech2000]

Nice job there farmer Ivan {:-) That gives new meaning to letting the smoke out.

[@wyrtwister4260]

What is the wire that was dangeling , un connected , at the alternator? God bless Wyr

[@haywardsautomotive6156]

Simple diode test we used on older cars when you turn off the car and the charging light on the dash would be lit dimly from a bad diode. Now on the battery cable arcing in the terminal...Could you have used some aluminum foil & tape...:-)

[@banditfarmer1900]

One wire Alt = negative ground , If it has a external regulator on it then its a positive ground. I've worked on lots of Oliver's. Bandit

[@gvvq-pi5ml]

Hi there from England, i would just like to say a couple of things, the starter motor always goes the same way regardless of the battery polarity as it has electric field magnets, so it will work with pos or neg earth, But the Alternator, well most of them were made for negative earth, i suspect it may have originally had a dynamo on or the batteries have been reversed...dynamos are neg or positive earth, easily changed...but think you got to the bottom of it..as long as it works that the main thing...from Fred in UK.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Tom Smith I believe you are correct on all accounts. Thanks for the comment :)

[@rkwill100]

We recently has a problem of no crank where the battery post wire was corroded to the point of no connect.

[@sixpacksandsrts9122]

How you doin. Ivan. Great vid. Umma pop up around your town and fan girl you ..... ;)

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Jason Curry lol

[@PhattyMo]

I had a feeling,from the get-go on this one. I never assume anything that _was_ positive-ground is _still_ positive-ground. Lots of things were converted to an alternator,instead of the original dynamo/generator,and the polarity got changed to accommodate the new negative-ground alternator. I always verify that first!

[@matutenoel4833]

waw. good. video. amigo. estas fasil. reparar. ese. trantor

[@AntonioClaudioMichael]

I bet that alternator needs to be running on a standred negative ground system instead of old school positive ground @Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics

[@scottwaddington3779]

Hello . My starter clicks but engine doesn't crank at all . I replaced the starter. The battery cable burt off .any ideas? Thanks

[@trippplefive]

how the hell were other things on the tractor working fine with the polarity switched? great work as always, sir.

[@ratbag359]

simple times only electronics will be the alternator.

[@feeneysmechanical6215]

it's not uncommon for farmers to convert them old 6 volt tractors to 12 volts and then use a GM 10 alternator to recharge the batteries. Read about this a lot in farm trade show magazine. Great video btw

[@Garth2011]

Those 6 volt batteries are more expensive than 12 volt are however, there's much more amp hrs with the two 6 v batteries.

[@jrgroundhog]

hey if you look in the vid when he is switching the cables there is a big + and a big - drawn on the tractor with black marker humm i wonder why lol

[@assgrabberb]

Cool

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+AssGrabber B except the temperature of that harness...not cool lol

[@binnsh]

Should I assume the the gauges read right etc. after the polarity change??

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+binnsh I think the few sending units that this thing has are either thermistors or switches. So they should work the same with either polarity configuration. This trick wouldn't fly on modern vehicles however haha

[@chekelley6861]

So when you first started it with the alternator unhooked was it running backward? When you switched the system to a negative ground, wouldn't it reverse the starter?

[@celeron55]

+Che Kelley That starter probably has a field winding instead of permanent magnets, which means it will turn in the same direction with any voltage as both the stator and rotor polarity is affected by the input voltage.

[@chekelley6861]

+celeron55 Ok that makes sense

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Che Kelley Well it did start fine in both configurations, which would suggest the starter spins in the correct direction independent of polarity! I was surprised by this, as most DC motors reverse rotation. I think celeron55 has the right theory about the field winding. Great question!

[@chekelley6861]

+motoYam82 I'm gonna have to study some DC motor theory. Love your channel!

[@richardcranium5839]

the rotation on a field wound starter is dependant on the direction of the armature winding

[@retroguitarmaster]

genius, just genius, i know people that would've considered hanging themselves with all that wiring fuzz before coming up with a solution

[@markwheeler202]

16:10 You have the red cable connector on the negative battery terminal. Very confusing.

[@billmonroe8826]

Did this tractor come out with a generator originally?

[@robertb2479]

After 1960 all farm tractors were 12v negative ground as were most American cars and trucks.

[@vitavas3824]

Круто!

[@billrimmer5596]

The starter has a one way roller clutch on it. So of it turned backwards, it would have just spun. I don't get why it didn't

[@ratbag359]

Series wound starter motor they will always rotate one way

[@stealthg35infiniti94]

@@ratbag359 Being an electronic technician, Series just means in line. A DC motor will spin backwards if polarity is reversed. Why then the starter spin the correct way when the tractors polarity was reversed?

[@ratbag359]

@@stealthg35infiniti94 put dc across your vacume motor it will spin the same way with either polarity. The field windings and armature are set to provide the same rotation. a permanent magnet motor will reverse with polarity.

[@jdean399]

Hi Ivan, When you did the voltage drop across the battery terminal, what should the reading of been?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Jonathan Dean 0V, as long as there isn't excessive current flowing :)

[@jdean399]

+motoYam82 Thanks for your reply Ivan, i find it a little confusing because I would expect 12 v on a battery wire, I will keep watching and maybe learning,thanks again

[@cojones8518]

+Jonathan Dean The reason the meter was showing 12v is because the meter created an easier path for the electrons to flow through. Electrons always flow through the path of least resistance. Since the terminal connection was so poor, essentially infinite, when the meter was connected it found an easier path through the meter and showed 12V. If the connection was good (0 Ohms) the meter wouldn't show any voltage because of the high resistance of the meter.

[@jdean399]

+CO Jones Thanks for your help I appreciate it.It is all a bit clearer now

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Extra credit question: Keep in mind that during this voltage drop test the alternator was still hooked up. So my question is: would the voltmeter have read differently if the alternator was disconnected? If so, why? You must explain your answer :) Any takers?

[@garyjohnson2879]

alternator not a generator could be the problem.

[@vwivancc]

How much is for this work?

[@beechwood619]

Why didn't you just start the engine and see if you had any output from the alt.? Also why is voltage going TO the alt?

[@theoldwizard998]

Perhaps a better way of explaining what you are doing with the light bulbs is to say that by placing them in SERIES between source (battery) and the load (short to ground, in this case the alternator) the resistance of the bulbs is LIMITING the current being drawn to 5 amps.

[@cojones8518]

+theoldwizard998 Just to add the math to what you said. When Ivan smoked the wires it was like connecting the battery terminals together with a large gauge wire (0 Ohms) and it would pass infinite current Amps=Volts/Ohms. (infinite Amps = 12V//0Ohms) That's where the 400 Amps draw came from, he divided by zero and the battery was sending everything it could through the wires and pegged the ammeter. Even a small 2 Ohm load connected in series between the battery terminal and battery wire, like he did with the headlight bulbs, would drop/limit the current to 6 Amps. 6A= 12V / 2 Ohm

[@theoldwizard998]

+CO Jones First, Ivan is being a bit "generous" ! I assume those are 1156 bulbs (standard single element , bayonet base backup bulb). They actually draw about 2.1A, so they are about 6Ω. Two of them in PARALLEL would be about 3Ω Because these two bulbs are placed in SERIES with the load (or short in this case) the total resistance of the circuit could NEVER be lower than 3Ω, so the max current draw could NEVER be more than 4A (5A close enough).

[@dickritchie2596]

You need to go ahead and replace the terminal. The alternator is the short.

[@Adam-bw4lw]

LOVIT IT ......:) OLD BEAST :)

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Adam Budai Once you get it started you can cut all the wires and it will stay running!! Beautiful mechanical simplicity!

[@Adam-bw4lw]

+motoYam82 just like my 1985 (universal 650) tractor .....engine rebuilded once,no stupid electronics just the basics,even the "kill" system is basic (lifting up on the throttle pedal) whe still use them on evriting today,they are the most reliable tractor around a farm in Romania :)

[@Varinki]

+Adam Budai Those were made by UTB in Brasov?

[@Adam-bw4lw]

+Varinki yes,but the original factory got destroyed,a guy from Egypt buyed the plans and rights for the tractor,thei are still produced in Romania by a company that makes parts for it,but they only for export(they cant be sold legally do to emissions law) in Egypt.

[@geoepi321975]

you switched from positive ground to negative ground?

[@Jon.Rushing]

+geoepi321975 yes he did.

[@serchmarc]

hello moto. that amp clamp can read up to thousand of amps?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+serchmarc 800 DCAmps. Don't try that at home lol

[@serchmarc]

hehe no bro.. i meant point ,thousands of amps. ex: 0.050mA to check for parasitic draw, i dont have money to buy the pico yet,, BTW whats is your name, im tired to call you MOTO!! LOL motoYam82

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Oh I would say accuracy is around 0.1Amps. Scope not required. Everyone else calls me Ivan so that works lol

[@theoldwizard998]

Okay, so correct me if I have this wrong. When some one installed a modern alternator they changed the electrical system from a positive ground to a negative ground system. But if the tractor was a positive ground to start with wouldn't reversing the the battery leads make the the starter run backwards ? Sounds like this NEVER was a positive ground system !

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+theoldwizard998 As you saw in the video, the starter didn't care at all about polarity! Engine fired right up before and after the polarity switch. Should have shown the OEM wiring diagrams...

[@theoldwizard998]

+motoYam82 How does a starter NOT care about polarity and still spin the correct way !!????

[@NZdiagnostics]

+motoYam82 It started right up, but did you try it in gear? I ask as believe it or not, some diesels will run backwards (have seen it first hand). The easy clues are they sound a bit different running backwards and of course when you throw it in first gear you go backwards!

[@NZdiagnostics]

+motoYam82 Also... another flipping brilliant video Ivan. You have quickly become one of my favourite youtube diagnosticians

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Alex Wills I believe this is a 4-stroke diesel so it cannot run backwards. Maybe you are thinking of a 2-stroke diesel?

[@Boodieman72]

The farmer needs to make a note that its hooked up the modern way.

[@tiredoldmechanic1791]

Do what the guy who changed it didn't do, paint on it that it has been changed to negative ground.

[@nicknicu1787]

You need a thermal imaging camera.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Nick Nicu I just do a visual inspection using the "electric smoke machine" LOL

[@rkwill100]

no crank is (almost) always due to a safety switch.

[@rkwill100]

kiijs kuje sineibe replaced the alternator with the wrong one.