No SECRETS in Beethoven's Symphony Nr. 1 (1) - How his Notations guides our Tempo Choice

[@musicalintentions]

You are right. Changing the tempo changes everything.

[@herrickinman9303]

Obviously slowing down the tempo changes the sound of the piece, but not necessarily for the better. You people are manifesting the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome.

[@dantrizz]

I for one love this sort of analytical video

[@thomashughes4859]

Hear! Hear!

[@daniellefernandes8744]

I love all your videos about Beethoven. Fantastic this one, too.

[@daniellefernandes8744]

That video only shows how important is the study of musical theory, if you want to play on the right way.

[@grocheo1]

Yes, more videos please. Thank you very much.

[@mariusvanhandel2876]

Fantastic!! Very informative. Immediately applied lessons learned to the music of Fernando Sor (exact contemporary of Johann Nepomuk Hummel; and a few years older than his friend Kalkbrenner). Works marvelously.

[@thomashughes4859]

My daughter is a classical guitarist, and her Sor and Carcasi are my favourite pieces! One of them was called the "Beethoven" of the guitar. Great commentary!

[@mariusvanhandel2876]

Fernando Sor was called "the Beethoven of the guitar" by his contemporary, the music critic Francois Joseph Fetis. It is unfortunate, because it raises expectations of Sor to which he does not answer. Although in form he was thoroughly aligned--in so far as it is relevant for the guitar--with his generation (Beethoven), his harmonic develop is more reminiscent of Haydn. There are those who claim that Sor was limited by the limitations of the guitar. I think the evidence is that it is not the case. His opera, Telemaco nell'isola di Calypso, is very lyrical and enjoyable, but has more of Haydn than of Beethoven, and does not achieve the greatness of the major opera composers. The same is true of his considerable music for the fortepiano: high level of lyricism, but does not reach the level of harmonic and dramatic development of his more famous contemporaries. On the contrary, Sor's highest achievements were on the guitar. Unfortunately, there is no one in the 20th or 21st century who has attempted to play Sor's music conform to the period in which it was written. There is an unfortunate tendency today to read Sor manuscripts absolutely literally and mechanically. That is clearly wrong, evidence Sor's own method book for the guitar and the guitar method of his contemporary and next door neighbor, Dionysio Aguado, and the general trends on Sor's era. In short, the greatest composer on the guitar, highly lyrical, rooted in classical harmonic development, and with a greatest variety of genres for the guitar of any composer ever. But do not expect Beethoven.

[@Clavichordist]

@@mariusvanhandel2876 It could be that his greatness was that of Beethoven and not necessarily in the style of the great composer. It's not that Sor isn't a great composer, I think it's because he composed in a totally different genre and this would put his other works not at the same par as that of a composer whose specialty let's say the pianoforte, for example. I've run into that with others such as Rossini. He wrote a gazillion super awesome operas, but his other works are meh. I said to myself he should have stuck with the operas! I have taken the guitar music of Sor and Giuliani and transcribed some of it for keyboard and played it on my clavichord. The music I agree is a bit more like Haydn than Beethoven, but is typical of many of Beethoven's contemporaries such as Josef Woelfl. Beethoven was ahead of the curve and there was only a small group that followed closely in his footsteps with many others still composing in the more conservative style of Haydn and Clementi.

[@mariusvanhandel2876]

@j@@Clavichordist Great comments. Absolutely agreed. But the fact remains that Sor's opera and his fortepiano music lack the dramatic and harmonic heft of his great contemporaries. I can fully appreciate that the guitar is not the right instrument for great dramatic depth. But I am disappointed that Sor was not bolder harmonically. If he had been a little more ambitious, been a little bolder, with his lyrical and melodic genius, he could have given us a repertoire that would have rivaled his contemporaries. By the way, I love playing Sor. I play almost nothing else (nothing to brag about; just to show my appreciation of Sor). Are your clavichord transcriptions of Sor accessible? I would find them very interesting.

[@Clavichordist]

@@mariusvanhandel2876 What you experienced with Sor's fortepiano works (I must look for them...), is exactly what I experienced with Rossini's lesser known works. They were okay, but nothing that I would say that were over the top like his operas, and it's not that he couldn't do anything over the top either. Sorry there are no written transcriptions of the keyboard versions of Sor's works. I did that on the fly, working out chords and inversions as I saw fit. It sounds like a good project though for someday when I get a chance. (There's nothing to brag about here either, but it was a fun thing to try. Writing them down I think make them consistent and more thought out than winging it as I went along). I can understand why you focus on his music. His variations on a theme by Mozart is one of my favorites as are some of his other works.

[@dantrizz]

OMG I'm so happy you've shown a source saying that the tempo ordinario applies to an alegretto and then there's a doubling ratio for other tempos. I've been making my own tempo matrix based on all the research you've shown on your channel to get a more historically "accurate" idea of tempo (obviously it won't be perfect but it's very suitable, plus it's not the only one and I've got. I've made a few variations on it based on direct metronome marks adding in new variables/parameters) I started with the premise that you had shown in another video about fastest notes in a prestissimo and clearly it was 10 notes a second throughout most of the 18th and 19th centuries, and one of those sources also added that allegro was half the speed of prestissimo. So if I assume 4 16th notes per crochet it gives a prestissimo as 1/4 note = 150 and thus allegro 1/4 note = 75. From there I wanted to work out what would all the relevant tempo frameworks could be (within a reasonable range of course). First thing I decided was how to subdivide the gap between Allegro and Prestissimo and it struck me as there were 2 fundamental tempos between them. Obviously Presto was a fast tempo, but also a slightly faster tempo than a regular allegro exists in the form of molto allegro (or you could say that allegro assai or allegro vivace fit into this category as the metronome marks for those tend to be around 1/4 note = 90 or 96) Thus the gap between allegro and prestissimo is divided into 3. If it's the case that there is a ratio of 1 to 2 between these, a perfect ratio between each following tempo word would be the cube root of 2 (roughly equal to 1.2599) I then decided on the following tempo words as being the most fundamental (largely by Czerny's description in op.500 piano school and other searching about on the internet) and came up with the following 11 categories: Grave, Lento, Largo, Adagio, Andante, Moderato, Allegretto, Allegro, Molto Allegro (Allegro vivace), Presto, and Prestissimo. And to work out their relevant metronome marks I simply divided 150 for the prestissimo tempo by 1.2599 over and over again to get the following metronome marks for each of the tempo words (These all relate to the crochet and are rounded to the nearest integer) Prestissimo 1/4 = 150 Presto 1/4 = 119 Molto Allegro = 94 Allegro = 75 Allegretto = 60 Moderato = 47 Andante = 38 Adagio = 30 Largo = 24 Lento = 19 Grave = 15 Notice that via this method I've reached allegretto as the tempo ordinario, and Adagio is exactly half that. I will say according to Czerny's metronome marks, a lot of the time he'll give tempos like 32 or 28 for andante (if you recalculate them) and adagio as low as 23 sometimes. Plus the grave in beethovens pathetique would be the equivalent of 11.5 which is significantly slower as a proportion. However if you play these tempo for any of the relevant italian tempo word, you'll get a very suitable speed that have very few issues at all. Thank you for essentially confirming what I've deduced via a different way of thinking.

[@michaelschwaiger8071]

Sehr informativ! Bitte mehr in dieser Art. Danke!

[@AuthenticSound]

Great to read Michael!

[@thomashughes4859]

Wim, I could watch these videos for hours upon hours! The muses are nice to consider, but the science of music is the real gem for me! Excellent work and research! I am a better musician having got to know you. ❤

[@SalseroAt]

I enjoyed this very much. Please more of this

[@kennithnichol]

Fantastic insights Wim! Time signature and note values matter greatly. Regarding Allegretto, Tempos are generally around Wholebeat (WB) 1/4 = 96 (as you mentioned). On the surface it seems like it's slower than tempo ordinario (WB 1/2 = 60); however, because the targeted rhythmic unit is smaller, the perceived tempo is still faster than a Tempo ordinario in common time. Most Allegrettos appear to be in 2/4, 6/8 or 3/8 time: all time signatures which tend to emphasis 1/8 and 1/16 notes.

[@BryanMatuskey]

Thank you so much and I vote for more technical videos!

[@Angelied]

Thank you for your videos! They are really interesting!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks!

[@paltieri11]

Good work! So happy to see the book project moving forward.

[@bryanbarajasBB]

Wow! I love this! I also thought Beethoven wasn't too keen towards metronomes, but you have proof! Ha! I also need to study tempo, very interesting!

[@ppmartorella1]

This is quite informative and very interesting.

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@Rollinglenn]

very good content - very helpful in understanding how composers set their tempi.

[@petertyrrell3391]

Yes, tempo decisions change everything. This also applies to later music. For instance the Ballade in G minor, op 118, by Brahms is currently played too fast in my view, and reminds me of rapid punching or a pneumatic drill operating on a road rather than telling a story.

[@thomashughes4859]

Chopin's posthumous Lento waltz WB MM Crotchet = 132 reminds me of this too-fast playing. Chopin lost his love. It's darned meloncholy to the max. I'm with you all the way.

[@petertyrrell3391]

@@invernobastardo2599 That's interesting. I suppose play it lighter and let the pedal do the work(?).

[@petertyrrell3391]

@@invernobastardo2599 It could be by that time musicians had different concepts of Allegro/Andante? Regarding the Op 118 Ballade, how much pedal do you think Ilona Eibenschuetz is using? I am not sure because of the old recording. I find the middle section lacks sentimentality or tenderness.

[@petertyrrell3391]

@@invernobastardo2599 I have further read that Clara Schumann was not happy that Ilona tended to rush .

[@petertyrrell3391]

@@invernobastardo2599 I am finding this ballade easier to play if the first 3 notes are fingered 5,5,5 at the beginning, and in other places, not 5,4,5 as the editor suggests. But what does Brahms mean by "energetico"?

[@DanMcLaughlin]

Yes more technical videos please. Also I'd suggest doing a "Whole beat practice in 5 minutes" video. I'll admit I've been watching you for some time, but don't really have a sense of whole beat practice and the motivation for it, because the information is spread across many (longer) videos that get quite detailed. Give us a 'elevator pitch' video.

[@AuthenticSound]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHbKfoOelNFkeKs

[@alangreene9423]

In the Carr source: "...till we come to Prestissimo and then count every Minum as a second". This is exactly what you did for the Beethoven Op.2 No.1 recording of the Prestissimo movement. I think understanding Prestissimo to be "as fast as possible" is a misnomer, and I've had that feeling for a long time. Why would composers of that era ever have an interest in any of their compositions being as fast as possible.

[@alangreene9423]

@@invernobastardo2599 Czerny does not disagree with me. Czerny was alive in the 18th & 19th century. I am alive in the 21st century. I am saying that *today*, understanding Prestissimo to be "as fast as possible" is misguided because by 20th & 21st century standards, what has been realised as the upper-limit of possibility has likely increased significantly. Bring Czerny back to life and ask him to play a passage as fast as possible. Ask Evgeny Kissin to play the same passage as fast as possible. The superiority in speed and technique would likely be quite evident. So from the perspective of the 18th/early-19th century composer, for anything beyond presto, they possibly thought it might as well be described as being "as fast as possible", even though speed and technique had a lot more potential than they were aware of.

[@bryanbarajasBB]

It would be interesting how Beethoven's piano sonatas will be interpreted by this reconstruction of the classical tempo!

[@Lianpe98]

He has recorded a few on the clavichord

[@Clavichordist]

I enjoy these videos as well. In the future, could you do a demonstration at your clavichord or one of the many pianos? A demonstration plus the written theory will go a long way for many of us. Is there a possibility that you can post a translation of that French statement? I understand a bit of French, but only picked up a word or two since I'm not a native French speaker. In practice I have been applying what I've learned so far and it's truly an amazing rediscovery and journey. Many works I have found are not only more approachable, but also truly beautiful as these pieces go beyond the note-race to the end. Piano sonatas by many composers now become symphonic works in miniature more so than I could ever picture in my head since I always hear other instruments beside the keyboard instrument being played. Combining the slower tempo with finger voices and the other techniques I have learned in the past, has given new life to many works I played in the past.

[@thomashughes4859]

Nailed it, John! I -READY- SIGHTREAD the Mozart 331 for my daughter, and she couldn't believe it was Mozart! She thought it was the most beautiful thing she'd ever heard. I think I played it about 15 mpm. I reckon that would be WB MM Dott'd Crotchet = 66. It was great!

[@Clavichordist]

@@thomashughes4859 Isn't that a great experience. I always picture Mozart's sonatas as piano trios or concertos in my head. He does a lot of the same things in his larger works that he does in his sonatas. Thinking bigger and playing slower gives a lot more depth to these works than is seen at first sight.

[@MarzoVarea]

You mean that French at 9:42? I hear "mesure à quatre temps vite", which would be "fast four beat measure". However neither French nor English is my native language, so you might want to check it.

[@AuthenticSound]

at the piano would be nice, but... adding complexity in recording as well. And noting down things on its own has its value too, what do you think?

[@Clavichordist]

@@AuthenticSound Yeah that would be a bit more complex with a bit more prep, although, using a smaller whiteboard to write things out at the piano on the fly would work along with some prepared examples. This would mean working opposite from whiteboard first and music last in preparation because you need to come up with your examples first before doing the whiteboard notations.

[@antoniavignera2339]

Interessante la spiegazione del tempo.

[@manoelfernandez3461]

you should play Goldberg Variations on the clavichord (sorry this comment has nothing to do with the video)

[@herrickinman9303]

Interesting theories on tempo, but when applied to the 1st symphony, the results are not convincing.

[@123Joack]

First!

[@thomashughes4859]

Outstanding! Had I not computer issues to-day, you'd have had a run for your money! 😃

[@phpn99]

I've said this before but you're also repeating yourself ad libitum, as this is your channel: You are exceedingly dogmatic about tempo. Your claims are even more questionable then the composers mentioned are not alive to prove or disprove your interpretation. It doesn't matter how many textual sources you are basing your assumptions on, in the end, it's still an interpretation. You also seem to forget that the pace of a score has always been inextricably linked to the acoustics of the venues in which they were intended to be played, and hence heard within the composer's inner ear. Music is more than an optimal rendition of a script; it's about emotional connection; this is where authenticity lies; in the talent of the musician, not in some hypothetical rendition that one could program a computer to perform. Your position is the same as that of a religious fundamentalist: In the illusion that there is a single, original intent in the written word, that one may discover by intense scrutiny. This view has been largely dismissed by epistemology in various fields, not least of which the field of History, where one understands today that a historical record does not represent an absolute account of the time from which it comes, but a partial artifact from which one can only infer subtantive elements. You MAY suggest that it's possible to intepret a Beethoven score with a particular tempo, and you may use a whole collection of historical records to substantiate your suggestion, but you cannot produce affirmations whatsoever. What matters in the end, is what listeners experience from a performance. My gut feeling for instance when listening to Glenn Gould's interpretations of Bach is that sometimes he seems exageratingly slow or fast; yet I can accept this as a coherent musical experience. When I listen to Leonhardt, Gilbert or Pinnock, I hear much, much more in their performance than tempo; I hear a huge amount of space within beats and phrases, whatever the tempo, because their skill as players make melodic contours and counterpoint seem natural and effortless; inhabited by a soul, almost improvised and created on the spot. When I listen to Martha Argerich I am taken by how brilliant and seemingly flawless her playing of Brahms or Prokofiev can be, even though I admire how Alfred Brendel would likely play the same pieces in a more restrained manner, or how completely manic, flawed but deeply heartfelt Sviatoslav Richter would do it. In the end what matters is the "voice" that the player materialises. It's in the name of your channel, "AuthenticSound"; you should explore other dimensions of musicality than what the metronome and the notes say. Why not, for instance, have a listen to David Bruce's channel; as a working composer he makes astute and learned comments about the varied nature of music. Please do not take my criticism as anything but constructive debate.