The HIDDEN SECRET of Beethoven's "Metronome" Symphony. And why it matters to you!

Beethoven's 8th symphony is often referred to as the "Metronome Symphony". But how is the metronome involved in this masterpiece? Did Beethoven add some special "effect" to that symphony and if yes, why is it important that you should know about that?
Well... trust me. It is!
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[@RobinJWheeler]

This line of thinking is also clear in a lot of Chopin's Etudes! No.4 either 4 audible tiks per bar for whole beat or 2 for single beat. In whole beat the chords line up with the tiks or for no good reason only every other chord. The same is true for many other pieces!

[@neelsdp1]

Wow, two robots playing!!! I really enjoyed it, by the way:)

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@rodolfovicenzi5987]

Happy 250 birthday Beethoven!!! Thanks for the video!

[@yairzulosori]

I´m very interested on all your theories. As a pianist, for intuition I had the idea many works were slower than they are usually played. It was until I watched your videos; then my intuition could be supported in theory. Which books on Bach´s interpretation, tempo and articulation (which is different in original tempos I suppose) could you recommend me to keep working on this path? Do you know any good pianists that are applying this in their teaching and playing? Would be very thankfull for your answer.

[@AuthenticSound]

For piani i would recommend working through Czerny opus 500, his pianoforte school

[@classicgameplay10]

Someone on this comment section recommended me Turks because he has a description of Tempos along with teaching method.

[@classicgameplay10]

I do also recommend the pianist Cory Hall here on youtube.

[@tommasobego4816]

I think that, when the metronome was invented, it was used differently by different composers, since it was a new object and they were not yet sure of its use. Maybe some composers began to use it in one way and later, over the years, they changed. Perhaps this is why some tempos seem logical to us when they are played in single beat but others don't.

[@AuthenticSound]

Your idea definitely makes sense as a thought. However, what one should do is cross compare metronome marks of pieces with similar notations, tempo words, of different composers, of different generations. What happens next is that you easily see patterns that confirm a generally similar understanding of using the metronome and 'classes' of tempi! Hope this helps!

[@grimcharades213]

Could you point me to where the clips that start at 2:20 in the video came from? I’d be very interested in whatever that documentary is!

[@Xuongskh]

I don't get it. I need visuals lol

[@sebastian-benedictflore]

Wait a second, doesn't this completely put an end to the discussion? With most/every other source(s), there is room to squeeze in some desperate excuse but this is just clear, definite, an indisputable description of whole beat. How can this even be rebutted? Shouldn't we stop arguing about the validity of the "theory" now? The only thing more mind-blowing than the theory is the fact that people still reject the obvious, clear facts.

[@AuthenticSound]

Exactly, probably that's the reason why you never read about this source in the "literature"

[@Rollinglenn]

tick tock and not tick tick? this should raise a few eyebrows!

[@josephciolino2865]

The slower reading of the movement makes absolutely NO musical sense. To me.

[@dougr.2398]

As mentioned in Live Chat, here is the Gavioli “Madam Laura” band organ story, with my acquaintance, Vincent Astor narrating occasionally kzbin.info/www/bejne/rYirqYOkiJhsp8U

[@antoniavignera2339]

Auguri Beethoven. Complimenti Wim .

[@gabithemagyar]

The assumption here is that the "ta ta ta ta" sixteenths of the score are meant to correspond specifically to the ticks of the metronome set to the tempo indication of q=82 rather than simply onomatopoeic representations of a (any) metronome's ticks independent of the tempo taken i.e. the assumption is to link the external tempo indication with the internal musical "joke".

[@roberacevedo8232]

Paraphrased: the tempo indicates the proper tempo for the allegretto. The ta ta ta’s are the strokes of the metronome. Vs The ta ta tas show the strokes of a (any that is not even separated from what he’s talking about) metronome. It’s pretty clear what he’s saying. And just in case, he says the same thing in German Des Metronomes vs mit irgendeinem Metronome

[@roberacevedo8232]

The mm indicates the propper Tempo, my mistake

[@gabithemagyar]

@@roberacevedo8232 Thank you :-) I don't speak speak German so I am not in a position to understand the nuances of the language. In English (my native tongue), when one says something such as " I love the song of the meadowlark" , "the meadowlark" can mean a specific meadowlark or all meadowlarks. To be very clear you would say "that meadowlark" or "any meadowlark" . Similarly, one would never say "I love the sound of the wind rustling in any trees", you would say "I love the sound of the wind in the trees" by which you mean it in a generic, not specific, sense. The use of "the" is sometimes ambiguous. I may be extrapolating from English usage and German is actually different (more precise) in this regard ? :-)

[@mikolajkrakowiak8365]

Wait a minute if It was WB shouldn't the metronome "ticks" in the other instruments be every second beat (Eight notes over the 16th and 32nd melody. But since they are both sixteenths it points to SB.

[@roberacevedo8232]

I’m not following you. Every time the mm does a tick, there’s a note. That’s it.

[@mikolajkrakowiak8365]

@@roberacevedo8232 Yes but the way the instruments are ticking sounds more single beat than whole beat

[@roberacevedo8232]

How? In SB there would have to be notes when the metronome is silent. The metronome ticks the same way in DB and in SB. In Double beat there is a note every time you hear a tick. In SB there is a note in each tick and AND in between the ticks. For the orquestra or piano to sound like the metronome doing tick tick, you would have to play a note every time it makes a sound. Hence DB

[@he1ar1]

if It it is meant to be in single beat then for every tick tock of the metronome we get tick tick tick tick in the orchestra. And the melody is tick ta tick ta tick ta tick ta for every tick tock.

[@classicgameplay10]

@@he1ar1 is it tick ta or tick tock? Cuz sometimes it sounds like tick tech or tick tick tuck.

[@CarlosAcevedoMX]

Excellent video, I'll watch it again to study it carefully.

[@yomizmito7105]

Beethoven metronome problem (and probably other similar problems of the same era) was recently solved by two scientists of University Carlos III at Madrid and UNED (Spain). Take a look at this PlosOne paper: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0243616 The debate is over.

[@yomizmito7105]

I'd like to add an easier to understand explanation on the subject I found in a Spanish newspaper (use a translator if needed): elpais.com/ciencia/2020-12-16/no-tan-rapido-una-explicacion-cientifica-al-misterio-del-metronomo-de-beethoven.html It was easier to resolve than expected, but it was necessary a lot of work to find out. The problem was just the way Beethoven (and probably other composers of that time) used to use the metronome, a device that was new at that time.

[@dantrizz]

Funny how you joined youtube 4 days before this video was put up and then the only comment you've provided was a source that's not peer reviewed, and contains logical fallacies, and is with respect to different piece.

[@wolkowy1]

Another cleared-cut proof. I don't understand how people cannot still realize the plain truth of the WB and still cling to the SB. Never mind - we are waiting for your book to be released, with all the proofs and more, edited and shown clearly in one place, with footnotes and musicological academic approach. Thanks!

[@mikolajkrakowiak8365]

What you don’t understand is that there is so much musical historical research in these past couple decades and your telling me no musicologist has found any real proof or any suggestions for WB and even if they did what do musicologists have to hide?? If they found proof they would definitely give it, it’s not like they are against the world and that it is some big secret. It would be the same thing as people playing Bach on a piano rather than a harpsichord or a clavichord some will be purists and others will remain in their old ways. Also at what point do you think everybody just dropped everything they were doing and said let’s just play twice as fast?

[@wolkowy1]

@@mikolajkrakowiak8365 oh, but I do understand, dear Mikolaj - I do understand pure logic + many proofs given to us, in many of Win Winters' uploads, during many years of his research on this topic of tempo, the pendulum, the physics and abilities, or better - the inabilities of the musical instruments of that period to react to many of the MM in SB, the inabilities of human beings to perform on instruments (or sing) some of the written MM, even those who are the best virtuosi, the definitions of tempo by many musicians and encyclopedias of the classic and romantic period, as well as mathematical definitions of the pendulum, etc. (there are a lot more). In my musicological studies, many years ago - I did researches myself and came to know many musicologists and to know the ways they operate: they are not covering 'a secret' but each of them has his own preferences of topics and choosing proofs to prove their ideas. You have to understand the difference between musicological proofs and the performing sector and performing establishments. As for your last question: there is no one specific point when all changed to faster performance. Even in the 19c. (in various points by various performers) it changed from the initial intentions of the composers to the preference of velocity 'show-time' before the cheering crowd. It all come to preferences. It is of-course legitimate to chose per-for-ming in SB as well as WB.

[@periodinstruments8651]

@@wolkowy1 curious you don't mention opera playbills. Oh well , we shouldn't take them seriously as they contradict the theory.

[@periodinstruments8651]

@@jeremypresle3412 We have seen that video already. Nothing to say about Mersenne, he was a precursor to the metric system as we know it today. Just do your own research.