No, Smogon Isn't Dying. However...

[@drewt4577]

Seeing Gen 3 OU basically qunitupling in popularity is quite the sight. The Jimothy Cool effect?

[@lucasalarcon3230]

Is not like that gen 9 have been awfull to play except for a few moment like pre home but even in pre home you could argue that gambit was to strong

[@xaropevic7918]

Jokes aside, I don't think so and I am surprised by that because I expected that to be the reason So, the boom started together with gen 8, around 2020, before jimothy cool's channel started, and also the channel started leaning more on gen 3 ou only after it grew a lot already

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

it's also the revival team as a whole, the first adv revival tournament was ridiculously popular

[@SevroAuBarca04]

@@xaropevic7918 You May wanna take another look at that gen3 OU graph. Notice how that big ass spike takes place right at the beginning of 2023. It also surely spiked on a Muk Monday. This is insane

[@usernametaken017]

The Iron Mugulis Effect

[@clothieredward]

From what it looks like, it's not that Smogon is dying but rather that people are trying out more of Smogon's various metagames which is quite good in my opinion. It's pretty cool to see people go back to older metagames either to revisit or see what they were like for the first time. Shoutout to Gen 3 OU btw for exploding in popularity these past few years.

[@slyfox7452]

Yeah i only play monotype because this new meta is annoying with goldengo not banned yet

[@vulcanraven9701]

The Smogon NU and UU metagame is where it's at

[@TheBongoJeff]

I was grinding gen 1 randoms. Almost was a top 10 Player. I really enjoy older gen/non OU metas.

[@luckasneo2089]

Partially because the national dexit also divided the players. I only play national dex instead of regular OU

[@Solexcalibur]

Hate to be that guy but 6v6 is boring af

[@rick_rabelo21]

Anecdotally the exponential rise in popularity of Random Battles also has to play a part. You can easily see by the ladder, I remember back in gen 6/7 RanBats, 2000 elo was enough to put you close to top of the leaderboard. Now it doesn’t even cut ladder anymore. RanBats are much more accessible for newer players (and older players who don’t have time to keep up with the metagame) as it cuts out the most time consuming aspect of competitive Pokémon - team building

[@misteral9045]

Ranbats is peak Showdown. People are going on there for a quick experience, ranbats is clicking literally one button, and you can always blame the computer for winning/losing because you don't get to pick first Pokemon out.

[@handoverthestromboli6715]

Ranbats is the gateway drug to smogon so it makes sense it would boom with the sale numbers of Pokemon on Switch while the more complex formats haven't. Give em a few years they'll be on to the top shelf shit like the rest of us degenerates

[@Sad-Lesbian]

Random battles was my absolute favourite way to play when I got back into the game. It had been so many years I had no idea what was good anymore, and it just meant I didn't have to think as hard.

[@melondonkey]

Random is the default on Showdown, so lots of VGC players like me accidentally press it sometimes and then lose a game. This inflates the elo's since elo is ultimately a zero-sum metric.

[@dm9910]

I think stable is a better description than stagnant. The former is a more neutral term that doesn't assume any underlying cause, the latter implies that there aren't any new players coming in. From this data alone we can't say whether it's stagnant or simply has a roughly equal balance of players coming in and out of the system.

[@dinar4331]

nice thing about being a community run thing is you don't have to chase endless growth, being stable is perfectly fine. especially with millions of games every month.

[@GAHAHAHH]

It's stagnant because it's a growing market the Pokémon franchise is more popular now than ever before not to mention the global population has also grown. So for Smogon to not be seeing an increase in popularity shows people aren't taking interest in it proportionately or more likely people are being driven away at the same rate as they are joining. Personally I think Pokémon is in a sort of fad or popular bubble, what I mean by that is the number of people playing/buying the games is temporarily inflated compared to the number of people who "enjoy" or have a more lasting interest in the franchise. You can only have Pokémon Go happen once, you can only release the first mainline home console game once, you can only have a first open world game in the franchise once. Although that didn't really stop The Pokémon Company from trying to and succeeding in doing those things multiple times they got around this paradox by making pseudo-mainline games such as "Let's Go, Pikachu" and "Legends Arceus". I predict the general public won't be fooled or easily impressed again and are starting to feel burned and taken advantage of thus the numbers will recede back to "normal" levels. But then again, who am I kidding? There are plenty of games and franchises that have "declined" yet paradoxically are seeing greater sales than ever before and even if Pokémon sales did start reflecting the actual quality of the games The Pokémon Company is sitting on billions of dollars they could be functioning at a loss for hundreds of years even if their earnings dropped to literally $0. They have no reason to change. Ugh... Why did I watch this video? Why did I read the comments? Why did I make a comment? I know for a fact that engaging with the Pokémon franchise in any way whatsoever depresses me yet I still do it.

[@Isabelle-mp8rk]

@@dinar4331 true, endless growth is usually something stockholders care about since that is what affects their earnings but it can have negative effects elsewhere.

[@Chimera-man-man]

I think an underrated reason is that VGC is constantly being updated as the Generation goes on. OU can get pretty stagnant until there's a big ban or unban, which is cool and love how the game's ecosystem changes in granular ways due to bans. However, it is refreshing to look up the new ruleset in VGC and start team building for it appropriately every several months.

[@nexenojustice552]

Yeah, in the past VGC changed once a whole year which definitely made Smogon the more dynamic format, meanwhile nowadays OU is stagnant while VGC changes formats three times a year to something very different

[@misalignedmisanthropist]

​@@nexenojustice552Reg F being normal-ish, then Reg G being a shocking single restricted format, then you have Reg H being the complete opposite of Reg G with the minimal power level

[@shady8045]

ngl the fact that bans literally help keep the meta fresh is extremely funny.

[@Sad-Lesbian]

​@shady8045 how so? This is actually quite common, especially in something like TCGs.

[@shady8045]

@@Sad-Lesbian ig I thought it was humorous cause Smogon has notoriously been extremely ban happy for most of its existence (though I think most people are of the understanding that a healthy majority of their bans are at least reasonable, because of figures like BKC and what not) So ban's generally have a negative connotation, but this perspective makes it seem like they are not only healthy but the only thing making the metas worth playing. also banned cards actually aren't that common is most TCG games, its mostly only Yugioh.

[@NolenJacobson]

The growth of VGC relative to other formats in my opinion is because it's a more time efficient ladder experience even compared to the most aggressive singles formats. You'll never run into a 100+ turn match and the short time limit on games really keeps things moving. VGC ladder is a great format for people who can only play for a couple of hours a week.

[@pjweaver8496]

Also... powercreep has made more people interested in lower tier singles since fan favorites are often not viable in OU anymore. The Smogon playerbase is split into about 7 tiers, including National Dex. I lost interest in playing OU a while back, but I still play UU and a ton of Random Battle Singles.

[@wentoneisendon6502]

It's boring having a game be determined by who can quiver dance once

[@bandedski2550]

​@@wentoneisendon6502You mean in gen 9 OU? Cuz I don't know what QD spammer is running rampant but there's a list of 10 mons I can think of that are OP without QD.

[@waaaaaaah]

​@@wentoneisendon6502volc was banned tbf. Now the name of the game is who can dragon dance twice first (one doesn't cut it with zama around)

[@celestain]

@@bandedski2550 ranbats presumably

[@bandedski2550]

@@celestain Why would you complain about losing to something cuz you have a bad match up to it when it's a randomized meta? That just doesn't make sense.

[@calvinnguyen1870]

The ability for teams to be shared via rental codes in recent gens has also likely contributed to more people playing on cartridge. The biggest barrier for entry for new competitive players has always been team building and all the bs surrounding EVs and IVs involved in doing that legitimately, and rental codes bypasses all of that.

[@bucketspree4952]

Took them too long to implement something like that, given the popularity of Stadium all those years ago

[@LexClone5]

People realizing there’s more to Smogon than just playing OU

[@jake9107]

its the finch effect, gen 9 ou is the worst meta ever conceived

[@iantaakalla8180]

I also think that even considering how Finch runs Gen 9 OU, they also made the decision to keep Tera. It is a neutral decision in the sense that it is not strictly worse to keep it and it promotes another level of play because it messes around with another fundamental element of Pokemon battling. The issue is that Tera is enough of a boost that any single Pokémon whose issue was its typing or perhaps is just not powerful enough can run roughshod over Gen 9 OU, so there are too many Pokémon that can take advantage of that for Gen 9 OU to feel balanced or good to play.

[@Steflora]

Smogon isn’t ruining Gen 9 OU, Game Freak is. Considering all of the insane stuff that is constantly being added to the current generation, it’s a miracle that Smogon has been able to keep the format alive for as long as it has. It’s become more apparent than ever how much Game Freak is pandering to VGC specifically, which isn’t doing singles formats any favors.

[@zillva]

​@@StefloraThere exists not "single format" in competitive. Thus, they have no reason to pander towards singles at all

[@Steflora]

@@zillva Pokémon has existed for 28 years and 99% of all battles that have ever taken place in the games have been single battles. You want a reason for them to pander to singles? Well that’s it. The only reason that doubles is the official format is because the brainlets who watch VGC can’t be bothered to sit through a battle that lasts for more than 10 turns even though it would be a far more impressive display of skill for everyone involved. Smogon sngles has a rich history of being a highly competitive format in every generation, but Game Freak would rather their official competition be some doubles format where everyone spams the exact same strategy in hopes of out-lucking their opponent over the course of 10 turns. That’s what’s frustrating about it.

[@Rafikichu]

It's also that WiFi battling (while still worse) is way more feasible now. Back when I got into competitive Pokemon as a teen, I couldn't even figure out how to connect my DS to the internet, but I knew how to go onto pokemon online / pokemon showdown on my mom's computer. Because I started my competitive journey on Smogon's site, I started with Smogon rules. My path might have been very different if I had learned competitive play on console.

[@majorasmask_8288]

Agree, and I want to expand on what you said last; right now vgc is getting way more visibility and people figure out pretty easily that it is the official format; back when I started playing in 2018 I really didn’t even know vgc existed and figured “hey, so showdown is official competitive Pokémon”

[@LucDeTruc]

@@majorasmask_8288Yeah stuff like the Switch’s WiFi battles and rental teams make VGC infinitely more accessible compared to even just Sun & Moon

[@bobalopadus8901]

There's an argument to be had for the DLCs focus on double battles helping to introduce players to the vgc format too. Obviously your point about conversion rates applies but if more people are playing on console it stands to reason that promoting the format through gameplay would popularise it

[@DanBlabbers]

I’ve basically only played vgc since sword shield. It’s way more interesting with strategy in team building

[@BingusTingus-ls4mf]

I like how the main difference in the playerbase is the Natdex split but the entire comment section is still all about how Gen 9 is poop and how that's why VGC is overtaking Smogon. Idk i dont really understand why the growth of VGC is so often framed around Smogon, clearly VGC can grow from all the marketing and coverage that it receives without it actually effecting Smogon at all. It would of course be cool if Smogon grew aswell, but a stable playerbase with people staying leaving and joining is totally fine too i think, nothing concerning about that.

[@nexenojustice552]

No lmao theres clear causation in a singles metagame being worse than the doubles which pushes players into the more balanced one Gen 9 OUs reputation is so close to the gutter its kinda crazy

[@pitt2445]

Remember that Smogon should not promote itself, to not make any noise that takes atention from Nintendo

[@waaaaaaah]

​@@nexenojustice552gen 9 OU lives up to that reputation btw. Offense infested, filled with a shitton of "one setup move, I win" button mons, etc. Luckily there's been a big push rn to clamp down on offense (and gliscor). Hopefully things get better soon

[@leaffinite2001]

​@nexenojustice552 ....or they could just do literally anything else, including the dozens of other smogon formats including several popular formats like gen 1 and 3 ou. I think if anything is effecting potential smogon players towards vgc its the popularity of vgc creators like wolfey.

[@azurai3934]

@@nexenojustice552 Calling doubles more balanced says more about gen 9 OU than it does about doubles itself💀

[@nistrosempai5285]

This looks like a freezai video, not freezai live

[@Eroil]

True but not edited enough for him to put it on main channel I'd guess

[@leaffinite2001]

Possibly no script?

[@TheUniverseExists]

I personally think it’s obvious that Pokémon is balanced for VGC and the power creep is finally getting bad enough in OU that it no longer feels like the de facto format.

[@lordmew5]

Pokemon isn't balanced for anything in what way hotdogs double battle mean rock throw needs a 5% chance miss. How doubles existing mean stone edge need to be 80 accurate?

[@sinnohperson8813]

​@@lordmew5 sleep isn't broken over. Supreme overlord isn't . Last respects isn't. And a ton of more stuff. All these were created for doubles

[@lordmew5]

@@sinnohperson8813 Sleep a mechanic that predates double battles was created for doubles? Are you sure it isn't a mechanic designed for dungeon crawling as a way pseudo knocking out a mon or at least forcing it to waste turns just getting hit? Also, there are still broken things in doubles like paradox misdreivous and moridon. Pokemon doesn't balance for any format. it's just a format that's harder to shake up

[@sinnohperson8813]

@@lordmew5 if it isn't obvious . We were talking about newer gens . Not sleep 😑. Plus smogon banned sleep. Sleep is not broken on vgc. A lot of changes recently have been for vgc. .and we were talking of game mechanics not individual pokemons 😑

[@vicobeid3618]

Loved this vid but I think you missed one critical aspect of why VGC is picking up for gen 8 and 9 and that’s game balance. With GF really pushing VGC themselves, most of the balance is focused on the double battle format with new attacks and abilities that are far more helpful in double battles than single battles. Also mons like Palafin who are overwhelming in singles, but are more balanced by being able to be double targeted while not being able to do spread damage back itself.

[@josephbulkin9222]

You have to wonder why the official tournament format is double battles even though the majority of the games in single battles. Feels a bit counterintuitive, and that's not just because I don't like double battles.

[@Ace-002]

@@josephbulkin9222more fun, more challenging, and also a lot more diverse. You’ll see pokemon like flamingo and voltbeat have some viability along with really strong mons

[@luminessupremacy]

​@@josephbulkin9222 Because singles is literally just half of the game? There are moves, abilities, and even whole mons that only work in doubles. Also, noone wants to watch tournaments where every battle takes hundreds of turns and where luck and trying to develop psychic powers to read the mind of the adversary are more important than strategy and positioning.

[@sinnohperson8813]

​@@josephbulkin9222they have tried singles in early gen. It just takes way too much time lmao. My last singles match in ubers took an hour

[@magik97]

​@@luminessupremacysingles is half of the game? Where are you getting these numbers from? Singles is the big majority of the games, not half.

[@cherryb0ng]

Really really cool video. I've recently become a fan of this channel and the production value and insight is way higher than most channels out there.

[@fischerprojektion1735]

I an curious about the number of randbats 🤔

[@MarkusAldawn]

I would be really interested to see explanations for the outliers on the graph, both exceeding the norm and underperforming it. I imagine it would be things like "tournament," "non-poketubers exposed their audiences," "server problems," and so on.

[@weepashbp2270]

Honestly it would be a very interesting video, maybe announcements of new gens also make them less popular?

[@soveliss42]

they’re mostly either new game/dlc release for the peaks, or showdown was offline for a bit for the dips

[@altariamotives16]

Splitting it into more and more subcategories can kill a game, though - if there's only a few thousand, let's say, gen 9 RU players, then only a few dozen will be online at any one time and you'll be fighting the same people over and over and getting bored of it

[@DankAudioStash24]

Old school single battles vs. the growing double battle scene reminds me a lot of classical 1 vs. 1 Magic the gathering vs. the newer multiplayer commander dominance over the whole game, affecting its very development, too.

[@ninthfloor]

You can also make money off of VGC. To make money off of singles you have to go to, like, random French ladder tournaments

[@InciniumVGC]

You can make money off VGC if you are like the top 0.001% of players otherwise going to events is not worth travel costs. The prize money is so little compared to other Esports so even if you do make money, it isn't that much. You don't play for the money. You play if you like the game.

[@RRRR-jr1gp]

prize money for VGC is tiny unless you win worlds lol

[@atmosrykorskyuubi3810]

@@RRRR-jr1gphow much can u wi n in worlds

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

​@@RRRR-jr1gp yet for a lot of vgc players it is a prime motivation. Money and prestige and the chance to play on a big stage or official livestream.

[@omgitsdannyk9478]

People seem to be trying more meta games besides OU, including the lower tiers. Honestly I think this is cool since it gives love to more mons and meta games. I know for me I get bored of gen 9 OU after only a couple games because I feel like it’s a lot harder to do consistently well due to the amount of 50/50s Terastalization causes. (This is potentially a skill issue but I still feel like it’s true lol) this has lead me to branch out into other meta games including VGC.

[@alexcameron2880]

Who doesn't love the Kingambit 50/50 sucker punch game? 😑

[@kindredgaming797]

I'm an old dog when it comes to competitive pokemon. I took it seriously the most at around gen 6-7, and i remember having a lot of fun on it. Tried to come back to OU multiple times lately, but failed miserably simply because it feels like some specific mons are just way too opressive which results in a very limited choice range when it comes to teambuilding. This is why i switched to random battles and games feel 10 times more enjoyable.

[@LordPhilipJFry]

Seeing someone describe themselves as an "old dog" and then say they were active in Gens 6 and 7 makes me feel insanely old.

[@Lucawee]

​@@LordPhilipJFryyoure just the older dog

[@jukesdtj656]

@@LordPhilipJFry Pokemon X and Y were released nearly 11 years ago.

[@pmwaffle9348]

​@LordPhilipJFry showdown has only been around since gen 5 tbf

[@LordPhilipJFry]

@@pmwaffle9348 Real ones remember Shoddy Battle.

[@dalebarrs297]

I think the main thing keeping people away, at the very least what keeps me away, from Gen 9 OU is the insane amount of powercreep that the Paradox Pokémon and Terrastalization introduces. Those two combined have so drastically raised the power level that many favorites are no longer viable picks in the metagame. In addition, the combination of those two result in a high degree of perceived variability from 50/50's revolving around defensive Tera on a setup mon. The lack of any way to know what mon will terrastilize only compounds that

[@alexcameron2880]

Tera is, and always has been, the problem. They should have two OU tiers...one with tera, and one without tera.

[@Missiletainn]

8:02 i think it being stagnent is actually more healthy, infinite growth is functionally impossible, so having it be stagnent means that for all the people leaving, there is new people coming in, and new people coming in bring new ideas and change the shape of the formats.

[@Gwneenguy]

I think a lot of newer players and/or older players that don't have the time to really learn about the new mechanics, like myself, will have a hard time with this new OU format and mostly that's why the numbers are declining for gen 9 OU. It's just super unfriendly due to the power creep. Next to that, there's also the enjoyment. In Yu-Gi-Oh, for example people are playing Edison and Goat format because the new metagame is just too fast. That's also what's happening with Pokemon right now. I find myself gravitating towards gen 3 OU because of the balance (and nostalgia) it's a mix of a lot of things why people aren't really liking the new metagame for singles. Not because it sucks entirely, but because it's just too unfriendly towards people who aren't that dedicated to the game because life or young. (And as everyone knows, there's a LOT of kids also playing showdown because i mean.. wouldn't you if you had that when you were younger?) so the game might not be dying, but it's just more divided than ever before. which isn't bad, quicker for me to find a game in gen 3 OU

[@bwellstv4927]

The answer is that all the people are playing Furret Only

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

this is a really interesting video, it's cool to see you applying your work to your content. as for what i think, i'd say there's definitely been a general downward trend with the popularity of OU, but it's almost entirely a result of frustrating game design and not really smogon's fault. the flaws present in one gen don't get fixed, gamefreak just layers another flaw on top to counterbalance it and don't care enough about singles to do more, so every gen gets slightly more convoluted and broken than the last and even if the council do everything they can to make it playable (which they've done a fantastic job of btw) they can't alter the game so those flaws are unavoidable. i think the rise in popularity for natdex and the old gens is great, but it's a bit of an issue that the singles version of an "official format" is seen as a joke or a mess by a lot of people. i would also add that with how much pokemon as a whole is growing it's not good that smogon isn't growing by the same amount, i'm not criticising smogon or calling them lazy but besides individual players/creators such as yourself you don't see promotion of any kind for the site or the tournaments. most tournaments come off more like a VIP club for established players than serious competition and coverage of the games is very hard to find and has no official commentary, so the tournament community is very isolated from the general playerbase, and the site as a whole is basically just this underground thing that anyone who doesn't play competitive in some way probably doesn't know exists, the official smogon youtube channel has under 20k subs with no videos in the last 4 years and the forums are to many players this weird place where they stand out from all the veterans with 20 badges by their name. if we want the site as a whole to grow then smogon need to take inspiration from the revival team (who are the reason why gen 3 ou has become so popular), we need proper promotion, more competitive and intuitive tournaments with no teams or best of 1 bs, qualifying tournaments that welcome new players to have a go, and most importantly we need official coverage with commentary from popular creators

[@lordmew5]

You know they can't do that right? TPCi will sue them to hell this literally already well known. TPCi literally allows them to exist because they don't promote and everything is word of mouth.

[@Jack-y6n]

Nice video. Next time you do something like this, you should explain the anomalies. There are months on the graphs where the number of battles are double or half of the months around them. I'm curious to know why. I'm guessing some are due to new generations perhaps? But why do some months randomly have a much lower amount of battles?

[@lektornese]

Started watching Wolfe in 2019 and started playing vcg in 2022 so I think there's a relation between the two

[@incendiaryvicis]

I appreciate how facts needed to be laid out freezai brings out the graphs. It touched on a theme consistent throughout his work. He’s always giving things a lot of thought and trying to bring perspective, knowledge, and experience he is the wise man of the competetive Pokémon community.

[@transrightsbaybee]

i think the metagame stuff matters. you noted vgc grew in popularity in gens 8 and 9, and it's noteworthy that dynamax and tera have been very controversial in singles, but much stabler in doubles.

[@InsertFunnyThingHere]

I mean I don't think dynamax was that controversial I think everyone collectively agrees that shit was wack

[@hoodieduck_]

W pfp and name

[@A.Froster]

@@hoodieduck_ L

[@AutumnReel4444]

The gen 8 and 9 gimmicks are what made me stop playing OU, 100%.

[@hoodieduck_]

@@A.Froster Cool Trans rights are human rights and if you don’t like that then that’s not my problem

[@bartmaster30]

I am a bit confused about your conclusion. You state some correct things about the data - current gen OU is declining - smogon overall isnt declining --> this is because people move around different metagames/modes However, you say that OU isn't declining because of current gen metagame isn't as fun. If people are moving around modes, but they aren't leaving the game overall. Does that not strenghten the point that current (right now gen 9) metagame OU is not good/ well liked overall?

[@poppyfrancis7338]

I don't want to just blankly call the OU council bad at what they do. I do think they make good decisions for the health of a metagame. Pokémon has moved extremely far from the direction Smogon had balanced itself around. The old way of banning taking as many mons into Ubers as we got new mid mons who'd never even see the light of day in OU. Pokémon has changed and we need to find a new way to balance singles, I think.

[@urd3adnow]

"the game is dying" is like, the most common sentiment ever among haters in EVERY game. i am a runescape/halo/yugioh/melee player and i have been hearing this shit about all 4 of those games for legitimately decades. there is a very old runescape copy pasta from like 2003 about the "rune smiths" and how there's too many of them now and it used to be an elite select few, and it's ruining the game. this is obviously very stupid and if you've played any time in the last 10 years you know this, but nonetheless you hear people decrying the end times pretty much nonstop. i think haters generally enjoy the sentiment of "xyz is dying" because it validates their feeling that THEY no longer enjoy the thing. they didn't just become salty and bitter and jaded - it became objectively worse, it is dying, etc etc.

[@neolordie]

I mean, ygo is dying atm, snake eye format is shite, and locals and tournaments attending rates are getting pretty low, the 2024 tin box is not helping when it should've helped lower prices for some cards too

[@Kingkhalled]

@@neolordie yugioh retro formats thriving rn so idk

[@kyo1546]

My favorite has always been League of Legends has been dying for 10 years now apparently. I notice that oftentimes people presume that games die because of balance, this is hardly ever the case. Most games, especially games like YGO, die because the consumers get priced out. In this case i think its a big failing to compare VGC to Smogon because the players coming to VGC arent necessarily from Smogon. But when you draw the connection it only validates people who dislike Smogon and you overwhelmingly get feedback from people who feel validated instead of general feedback. I can say for me i used to play singles a LOT back in Gen 5 when people like Shofu and e-lo were big in the Pokemon space. Then i grew up and had other responsibilities and not much time for dedicated gaming and that kind of content didnt appeal to me anymore. Now i enjoy VGC because i can watch a wolfey tournament recap vid for an hour and learn a lot, and if i want to play the games will be short and accessible. And if i have a desire to play singles i could do that, but i can also get that fix from PokeRogue. Theres not many high level ways to do doubles, but you can already do singles in a variety of ways. The biggest thing tho is that VGC content creators are just making better videos for older populations.

[@zyroberk]

​@@neolordiewdym, SE just got killed

[@neolordie]

@@zyroberk it got a consistency hit, not enough

[@Runningwritingreading]

I found gen9ou miserable because the flow of play in recent metas is endless safe neutral until 1 super push that snowballs I don't feel skillful when winning or losing I just feel lucky

[@DanBlabbers]

I have like 300-400 hours in scarlet and showdown a few hundred hours. I’ve only played maybe 5 ou singles which were only by accident. Singles is not fun unless it’s a past gen like gen3ou

[@GameOn0827]

Pokemon also started giving out big prize money for vgc competitions

[@icycrybaby]

Smogon really should consider making complex bans more often. Its so stupid to simply limit a Pokémon because of something specific, even when it has more possibilities. Like Greninja in gen 6, if protean is the problem, why not to just ban protean greninja? Why ppl cant just use it as a torrent lead, or something else? There is no other Water dark that could do what gren does

[@segafreak2000]

The problem is that once you make way for one complex ban, you'll get way too many people asking for complex bans that they want for their personal favorite. In the end, you will have a ton of super small bans clogging up everything and lose sight of what actually is a problem and what isn't.

[@icycrybaby]

@@segafreak2000 this is not necessarialy true, since most of the cases are not specific to this point. Most of banned pokémon are broken and thats It, not cuz of a super specific thing

[@MugenCannon97]

Smogon is dying because everyone is seeing the light and playing NEW POKEMON SNAP instead.

[@gligarguy4010]

I believe you mean they're playing the original Pokemon Snap. Because that sequel was just yikes

[@reillysmith2934]

I am just waiting for Terastalization to be rotated out. I think this generation's battle gimmick is not "new-user" friendly the longer the game has been out. I liked BDSP era when the focus was more on the fun team building rather than Tera-Abusers. I play like 1500-1600 elo, but haven't touched showdown other than to do calcs for cartridge.

[@MN-xh7yu]

I don't think smogon is dying as much as VGC is growing. I've been into competitive pokemon since I was young and introduced to it, but I don't think it's was popular or at least more mainstream until gen 5 at the earliest. I have friends who don't care about competition pokemon but they know of Wolfey, but backtrack a couples years ago and I'd say Wolfe Glick and they'd ask who's that. The man has made a large impact to bringing VGC to a more mainstream audience, the wave of content from other creators has grown in the last couple years. There is way more I could mention too

[@phullmoonv]

PIMPNITE got me into VGC

[@Zetsuuga]

I can't speak for everyone, but in my personal case as a long time Smogon singles player, SV singles fostered a gameplay trend that I just wasn't interested in anymore. The ticking time bomb that is defensive Tera into setup move that could happen at any moment on any mon caused me to tunnel vision on that one stressful situation for nearly every turn in every game. It became a real energy drainer to run into CRESSELIA and relax for a moment only for it to suddenly Tera Fairy in my face and my game is over. I think I'd gladly come back to 6v6 Singles if it wasn't as unstable in the future.

[@klausove7787]

Didn't expect a university lecture, but thanks. 😊

[@LessThanThreeMan]

I’m a lower tier player (NU main this gen, but I’ve also been a UU main in the past.) I think ou + nat dex maintaining together is fine. Exploration is a good thing! I think there is a bigger gap between ou and the lower tiers though this generation which is a bit of a shame though.

[@donnaolsen3964]

Smogon at least proportionally was basically destined to decline once Gamefreak got their act together and started actually promoting their official formats and rules better in English starting in Gen 5. Smogon only rose to the utter dominance it had because GF's english language promotion of their rules sucked. In Japanese they were way way better(Gen 1's tournaments influenced Gen 2 balance a lot) so Smogon's got a weaker presence there.

[@donnaolsen3964]

There's also the fact Smogon is progressively getting more and more spread out while VGC is always focused on the now, which has flipped a previous dynamic. VGC has a solid lead in doubles play in the current gen thanks to this which wasn't the case at all in Gen 5 and 6.

[@dylanf3108]

The explanation for when Smogon is declining always comes down to the bad current gen OU format. Gen 9 OU isn’t fun to play at all. Im sorry it’s not.

[@Pgal03]

Wolfey VGC got me directly into competitive pokemon and I haven’t picked up a game since ruby red. Anecdote for sure but I don’t think you’re that far off on how many people he has converted to playing the game regularly

[@darkcymruchannel5683]

I was watching haydunn wifi battle videos and I seen peeps not following smogon rules so its a sign that smogon no longer applies much to live wifi battles but rather exclusivly to pokemon showdown

[@afvpegknight]

You can do unrated random 6v6 matchups in the official games now. Lots of people do it. No one plays by smogon rules there lel

[@lordmew5]

Haydunn is old mad respect

[@gladigatorrawr1480]

Serious question but why did Wolfey get so popular? There's other champs like Rizzo and other channels focusing on competitive like False Swipe, but Wolfey is significantly more popular

[@FaradeAyandeji]

Charisma. He actually has charisma

[@Eroil]

Interesting video. I feel like showdown as a whole got a lot more popular starting a few years ago, I wonder how the stats would look like if you include randbats as well since it is part of Smogon technically, think that would massively change the scales

[@APerson-co7er]

Randbats has more players than all other metas combined

[@Eroil]

@@APerson-co7er everything combined I'm not sure but it has more, what interests me though is the growth/decline over time with rands included

[@APerson-co7er]

@@Eroil he has that graph at the end

[@Eroil]

@@APerson-co7er that only includes normal tiers + VGC no? Just looked it to it explicitly says excluding random battles

[@APerson-co7er]

@@Eroil oh yeah you’re right I can’t fucking read lol

[@cinders11037]

if 1000 people quit gen9 OU because of kingambit im one of them, if 100 people quit because of kingambit im STILL one of them if 1 person quits because of kingambit im THAT ONE FUCK kingambit

[@justadudewithopinions6209]

I wish i could agree, but to me Gambit in gen 9 is a lot like Jirachi in gen 4. Both are annoying to play against and overly reward bad play, but both also keep their respective tiers from becoming even more bullshit. The only way to fix them is a complex ban which everyone hates for some reason.

[@waaaaaaah]

​@@justadudewithopinions6209slippery slope is the excuse most often thrown about. If Kingambit is balanced without Sucker Punch or Supreme Overlord, then maybe Garganacl can be balanced without Salt Cure, and then maybe Palafin can be balanced without Jet Punch and we can let it back into OU, and then maybe Kyurem-Black without Icicle Spear also has a place in OU (Kyurem-Black was OU for the longest time after all), and then maybe Deoxys, and then maybe... Well, you get the point. People obviously have more restraint than what the above illustration makes it look like, but doing it at all sets a bad precedent, or so the OU Council believes.

[@justadudewithopinions6209]

@@waaaaaaah that makes sense for current gen ou but for gen 4 Jirachi you just ban running it with the 30% flinch moves and that mon is perfectly balanced and still works in its defensive role in the tier. Honestly the Supreme Overlord ban would probably be enough for gambit and it might even drop to uu with that but would still be a good revenge killer with a decent defensive typing

[@waaaaaaah]

@@justadudewithopinions6209 very true. Sadly current gen tiering policy kinda nonsensically applies to past gens to a point (and sometimes not?? Like ADV OU and UUBL) so this'll never happen. Maybe if Shaymin Sky was still in the tier they could pursue a Serene Grace ban but that ship's sails. It's probably one of the weirdest things an unofficial format accountable to nobody continues to uphold despite the fact the playerbase would dearly love it if it would happen

[@cbggaming1463]

I play OU because of Kingambit

[@melondonkey]

Millions of people love Protect and Fake Out

[@blackout995]

Gen9OU is so brutal to play, people have shifted from OU to the other metas. Natdex Monotype, UbersUU, randbats, etc. All going crazy rn

[@duvox23]

Smogon isn’t dying, Gen 9 OU is though. It’s main source of popularity is being the current gen, and it’s taking longer than usual to balance out the tier. This, coupled with the end of the new toy effect from the DLC’s, and this will only grow with Legends Z-A, which means gen 9 OU will keep declining, but the playerbase isn’t leaving showdown/singles anytime soon. I myself have mostly left for gen 8, and I can say these are at least mostly why I (and some of my friends) left, so I feel confident that this gives a decent overview of why people are starting to go back to other tiers.

[@thecod2345]

I think it’s in part due to Tera. Tera should’ve been banned in the first month because in singles where a single misplay can lose you the game, it’s not fun to turn literally any turn into that 50/50. Where making the right play could be the wrong play and you have no way to guess. Not to mention Tera has been the common denominator in ban after ban after ban. It painted a pretty clear picture but hey gen 9 got to keep its identity and it’s an identity that few people actually want to play.

[@squidge477]

Same thing happened in gen 5, powercreep and team preview completely changed the game. Tons of people left or tried alternate metagames than OU. I know I play mostly UU now, current OU's just not the teir for me.

[@yessum44]

Appreciate a fellow R user!

[@cadesummers5866]

I don’t think smogon is dying, I just think gen 9 singles kinda sucks lol

[@TheOmniBlade]

The moment they banned sleep they sealed their fate

[@carstan62]

I stopped playing ou in gen8 because it felt like a lot of the changes the generation introduced just weren't good for singles. It felt almost like GameFreak was sabotaging singles. I doubt that's actually true, but that's how it felt to me.

[@BPTK162]

I feel like this echoes my sentiment in a way, that the gimmicks introduced on the Switch lend themselves more to Doubles/VGC play rather than a full 6v6 singles battle. I don’t blame Pokémon as a company for trying to cater towards the official tournament rules, but for the old 6v6 standard it hurts more than it helps

[@Sonic546416]

I have never been of the opinion that Smogon is dying, however…I have been of the opinion that Smogon’s tiering action has had problems since Gen 8’s dynamax / heavy duty boots discussions and has only gotten progressively more of a problem since those days. While easy to ignore, it’s discouraging, it’s disheartening to know a problem exists but will not change, thus I can definitely see some people just saying “screw singles, vgc all the way” and going from there. I myself will probably stay on Smogon due to ease of access but I don’t blame anybody else for just making the jump.

[@elijahpark5344]

I think as the pokemon roster expands and we get more power creep, it ironically actually makes smogon more robust as a competitive scene, because the amount of pokemon, ability creep, move creep, and more means more ways to create formats with goofy mechanics that people enjoy

[@Quoise_]

for the past year or longer i’ve basically only been playing old gens and natdex ubers

[@axelltheswampert7553]

I must say I really enjoy the fact that its easier to make a team thanks to Bottle Caps, Ability Patch and Mints in the newer games! All we need is something to drop certain IVs to 0 and that's it. On every tournament I like to use Pokemon with my own OT and I've trained some Pokemon from old games because I enjoy doing the training by myself and the fact I can use the Pokemon I already have since kid feels fantastic!

[@BobSmith-pw4jz]

@Freezai Live - I would love to see these sorts of graphs for Random Battles too, if possible!

[@KiraVGC]

Another reason I think VGC is more popular on SD is the best of 3 OTS so we can practice in a similar setting to the tournaments

[@paulnewton2284]

What was that recent outlier month where everything Smogon temporarily dropped off? (Either June or July, if I'm reading the graph correctly?)

[@homemadesoup3021]

the video titles are so desperate im dead. but it did successfully engagement bait me good job

[@dispergosum]

I'm surprised randombats wasn't mentioned. Being in school right now I don't have the mental availability to keep up with the meta so my dozens a games a week we're (explicitly mentioned) as an influence here

[@Uri6060]

Its kinda funny how doubles used to feel way more hard to get into than doubles, so whenever I played smogon or w/e I would pretend doubles didnt exist. Now I feel the exact opposite. Idk if I am just more comfey with old pokes, or what but.

[@j-k-l4756]

One of the reasons why VGC is growing also probably is that the game conditions you to play doubles nowadays. Scarlet and Violet DLC 2 is basically only has doubles and those are even kinda competetive. Earlier generations didn't have doubles in important matches (I didn't play 7/8 but XY didn't have any meaningful doubles)

[@armorbearer9702]

I suppose as the years go on more formats will emerge. It makes sense OU is going to be chopped up occasionally.

[@iamkind29]

My usual pick-up line for smogon draft leagues: "Why should you draft me, well I watched a wolfy video in a bar last night, the sound was off but I think I got the jist"

[@nxxdle_]

My favorite archetypes are bulky balance and stall. Gen 9 is fun for hyperoffense shits and giggles but Idk I don’t have the passion to grind it out, I’m sure others feel the same. I love Tera as a generational gimmick but combine it with more power creep than usual and it’s too much for a dummy like me to handle.

[@Duffy_SSBM]

Love this analysis

[@empoleon621]

id love to see if random battles has gone up, down, or remained the same

[@InciniumVGC]

VGC is definitely growing though I still wouldn't say its that big, period, or bigger than Smogon. The pandemic and the rise of more competitive Pokemon youtubers gave it a boost. But to be honest, I miss the old days when you couldn't just look up statistics or strategies online. You just had to experiment for yourself. Today its way more competitive thus metagames develop much more rapidly and you pretty much have to no life it if you want to stay competitive. When a metagame isn't developed, like when a new gen comes out, it just feels like there are limitless possibilities and to me that just feels more fun. I don't really play anymore other than occasionally screwing around with randbats or something, though I still like watching videos about it.

[@Matt_Zoran]

And here I was hoping there was a smogon (the german name for koffing) in the random battles tournament from yesterday 😅

[@patrickstar8132]

And that's why the icon is Koffing :D

[@dantespekken3549]

Isn't it possible to look at unique players instead of games played as a metric? It would correct for game length.

[@-FermatsletzterSatz-]

I lost all interest in high tiers due to the insane powercreep of this generation. The Paradox Pokemon are still a huge issue for me as it felt so lazy and uninspired to simply take existing Pokemon, adjust them all by the same two themes (one of which is entirely boring), give them all the same ability and slap a min-maxed 570 stat spread onto them, hoping that if they're at least broken, no one would notice. In the beginning, I still played PU and ZU with "real" Pokemon but after some months, I shifted to Random battles exclusively as it absurdly felt more balanced and its reduced time consumption aligned better with my overall lower interest in competetive Pokemon due to the powercreep. The reason I found some interest in VGC was by watching Wolfey and you. Especially Wolfey invest so much ressources to create insanely good content - and when a content creator is supreme, I don't even have to actively play a game to enjoy the content. Now, VGC suffered from the insane powercreep even more than Smogon singles as far as I could tell. And if it wouldn't have been for you and wolfeys interesting content in itself, I would have quickly moved on. Your Doubles random battle videos spiked my interest though, so I tried it myself and stayed there ever since. With the new VGC regulation, I have some hope that VGC could develop to feature more variety in the future and phase out the broken stuff. And maybe it'll even give Gamefreak a hint to properly balance the next generation. I'll stay more casual on Showdown than I used to be though, waiting for what the next gen brings. Another power creeping atom bomb and I'm probably out.

[@lordmew5]

Bro hop off

[@nicholasapodaca9886]

Smogon's decline coincided with their dynamax ban.

[@bakes1324]

People are probably coming to play vgc on showdown because playing on the actual game and building teams is miserable. Why gamefreak doesn’t release a proper battle sim is mind boggling.

[@oflameo8927]

It is because they want you in the monster cult.

[@bakes1324]

@@oflameo8927 the monster cult?

[@oflameo8927]

@@bakes1324 "pocket monster" cult.

[@emmanuel8538]

Freezai are you a programmer? You’ve made some scripts in a couple videos that I saw, so I was wondering

[@defaultkoala2922]

I think he was making a browser extension recently so probably.

[@CountGremlin]

Tbh half the Smogon players are tech nerds 😂

[@aldrichunfaithful3589]

he's a software engineer i think? might be something else that's similar, but anyway if you wanna learn more about him you should go watch his podcast with jimcool (the podcast is called "the fridge with jimothy cool"), it's really interesting imo

[@skeletonwithagun2119]

I absolutely got back on showdown at least partially due to Wolfey

[@bilboswaggings]

I was a fan and played a couple of the old games (heartgold + another one) I'm still a covid Wolfey pokemon consumer and joined Smogon because of that (also chess earlier during covid)

[@fokspoks]

Your english is so clean and surprisingly simple, i can understand every word from you. Hi from Kalmykia

[@TheFallGrind]

People are playing more Pokemon no matter how you look at it. Whether it be NatDex and playing with your old faves using new mechanics, new Metas of the Month, going back and playing old gens, new people getting into Pokemon, veterans returning after not playing for a long time, etc.

[@patternwhisperer4048]

I think ite more about Nintendo actually cartering to competitive pokemon more properly the past years, and especially younger folks is introduced to vgc first before smogon nowadays

[@SmugLookingBarrel]

For me, a big part of it is honestly the lack of Smogon youtubers. I used to watch a lot of videos of people playing OU but most of the people I watched don't play anymore.

[@slyfox7452]

I prefer to play the side modes like monotype

[@theunknownrythm2270]

The only reason it's like this is because of how Nintendo balances the game and pushes VGC so much more than singles. I'd love it if they cared about both equally but current gen singles has just gotten unfun.

[@Euoplocephalus2003.]

Super subjective at the end of the day. Tera is the best mechanic I've ever played with thus far. Offers more creativity into the meta and completely adds another layer to that one Mon as a whole.

[@bartowo]

i never played anything on showdown except for national dex & anything goes 👍

[@vanesslifeygo]

people play more Gen 6 Doubles OU please. I occupy some of the top ladder slots. Part of the reason is that only some of the best players are still playing it. They have moved on to future Doubles OU metas or Smogon OU.

[@Yomasi]

Natdex is not the official OU metagame tho, so yea you could argue the split in metagame is bad for OU itself

[@okolo22000]

I believe the only problem for me is that the Generation 9 Pokémon still don’t have compatible sprites (or anything) that resembles something I like to look at in comparison to the other generations. I understand that the newer Pokémon don’t have sprites available online like past generations but somebody should’ve at least tried to make something appealing to look at unless there’s not enough bandwidth to support future generations appearances so we’re stuck with having to look at them for years to come.

[@tymunster]

Current gen OU blows

[@DarkLight00001]

The Nat Dex split is obvious. What is less talked about is that Smogon/Showdown still doesn't have the majority of the moving models from gen 9 after like 2 YEARS. Having static sprites really hurts the enjoyment of the game. Another similar factor is the animations are very dated. These two lesser talked about things creates a level of disinterest in Pokemon Showdown.

[@htlchtlc]

smogon ain't dying, but their bans still suck ass

[@selk8389]

sorry i main rby lc now