Nostalgia and the Fall of the Roman Republic

[@tribunateSPQR]

Do you believe that the office of the Tribunate led to Republican instability?

[@TobyTubeS]

No, that was just an excuse to neutralize the tribunes

[@lt2660]

Yes - a powerful position to the plebeian class offered a path to reform which could have been good for the republic. But there was no shortage of rich plebeians interested in the status quo, or poorer plebeians willing to be bought. 10 people every year with veto powers, it's a wonder anything got done at all.

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

No - it would have collapsed centuries earlier if they had not been there to provide a popular outlet

[@LuizAlexPhoenix]

All we have to do is look at its birth during the strike of the Plebs. There were definite possibilities of the city breaking apart without the office. It slowed things down to a crawl at times and was bought at others. But without it the plebs could have couped the city.

[@Apollo1989V]

The real problem was twofold with the tribunate. The aristocracy sometimes was able to get their supporters elected as tribune. The second was the use of political assassinations to remove people who called the status quo. A bigger reason is the state not paying its soldiers, leading to them being loyal to their generals.

[@davidcadieu9238]

I haven't watched the video yet but I'm commenting and sharing and liking before I forget because this is easily my favorite KZbin channel and content creator. Between this and historia civilis I've been a fan for years. Thanks for making this stuff.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I feel like if you have enjoyed my previosu work you will really like this one

[@JonBrownSherman]

"This country is going downhill! If only we could go back to how we were in [insert arbitrary time here] then we'll be great again!"

[@tribunateSPQR]

If that doesn't work then the obvious answer is just that we didn't go back in time far enough!

[@TobyTubeS]

We need to simultaneously go back to 1986, 1959 and 1776 all at the same time

[@LuizAlexPhoenix]

I always took it as "If only I could go back to when I was young" for older folk and "I wish I lived my parents' lives" for younger ones. Both think they can go back in time with their current knowledge, like they are the ones that are going to invent everything and avoid the mistakes of the past. Totally immersed in self fiction and fantasies about individualism. Zero acknowledgment of material conditions. Both that it's impossible to revert time. And that, even if we went back in time with detailed blueprints of everything in our day, the material and social reality of those times would still render it pointless.

[@mikeh7917]

The 1950s America.

[@JonBrownSherman]

@@mikeh7917 Ahh yes, when there weren't any problems at all in The US. No racism, risk of nuclear war, changing socioeconomic tensions, or any other issues. The good ol days...

[@CBrace527]

Genuinely hilarious seeing conservatives in here just saying some variation of "no it's never worked before but it's different when we do it"

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

the guiding principle of conservatism is that real conservatism has never been tried - we just need MORE tax cuts this time

[@peterg76yt]

It's amazing how much every ideology has in common.

[@crackshack2]

No thats what said about socialism and communism.

[@Maphisto86]

@@crackshack2 True enough. Though I think many ideologies of the past century or so have mattered less for what they claim to represent and more by how they are realized. A movement or revolution that violently centralizes power into the hands of the privileged few will result in tyranny, no matter if it legitimizes itself by appealing to tradition or to radical change.

[@StanGB]

Absolutely loved this one - great tale of how despite all the difference we have the same flawed human brain as the Romans

[@tribunateSPQR]

I don't want to imply that things can't get worse over time (they obviously can) but do wish more people were aware of the human instinct to think that things were always better at some ill-defined date in the past.

[@charleshellens6166]

These videos are very well made and are exactly the right length for a video essay of this sort.

[@tribunateSPQR]

thanks, glad you enjoy them!

[@benkubisiak1459]

Its not exactly one to one but it is hilarious how Marius refused to retire despite being very old and really having no reason to still be going at his age and Biden doing sort of exactly the same thing when he decided to run again and refused to duck out till the last minute.

[@taylorknight5702]

A key difference is that Marius' opponent was younger than him

[@crackshack2]

@@taylorknight5702? Trump is 78 and Biden is 82. Thought your point is just splitting hairs and is ridiculous.

[@taylorknight5702]

@@crackshack2 Sulla was almost 20 years younger than Marius lol. 5 times the age difference.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Had never even thought of this but yeah that's a little on the nose imo

[@benkubisiak1459]

@crackshack2 that's true. Trump is also far too old but Biden was older and was pereiceved as more old than Trump.

[@dhartmahmed50]

Arthur Rosenberg’s essay ‘Fascism as a Mass Movement’ (1934) also talks about nostalgia as a fundamental part of fascist movements. One of the most influential pieces on diagnosing and analysing fascisms in my opinion

[@tribunateSPQR]

I agree - it's perfect for fascists to utilize because by definition it is so flexible. Every person has a different idea of what this ideal past was and what it looked like. the contradictions are never adressed.

[@WorthlessWinner]

I'd argue the Gracchi were "driven by nostalgia" at least as much as Sulla, wanting to "revive" laws that hadn't been in force for 200 years (if they ever were) and "restore" powers to the tribunes that had long since gone away.

[@terranman4702]

I'm not sure there where ever more powers for the tribunes. But the Gracchi understood the common people where falling into poverty. The only nostalgia here would be: "Once there wherent as many beggars in Rome and all the land wasn't in the of a dozen rich gentes."

[@crackshack2]

@@terranman4702its more about the assembly. The Senate was suppose to pass laws through the Assembly. However the crisis of the 2nd Punic War required the Senate to act quicker. They never returned to proper protocol in the subsequent century of war amd expansion of the Middle Republic. The Gracchi attempted to return things to the way they had been before, the Senate killed them.

[@tribunateSPQR]

I think that can be argued, but I do believe there is a difference between pointing to a set of old policies or laws that existed in fact and saying they must be revived as opposed to trying to capture a "feeling" of past greatness through new legislation

[@WorthlessWinner]

@@tribunateSPQR - true but they both seem examples of both of these. The Gracchi wanted to roll back to when Tribunes actually did land reform, but the first 10 books of Livy IIRC were mostly "the tribunes tried to enforce the land reform laws they pushed through but the patricians stopped them" so I'm unsure if they ever actually enforced the laws they pushed through on it. While Sulla seemed to want to roll things back to that brief decade or so between the republic starting and the conflict of the orders (well, he didn't get rid of tribunes so it's more like he wanted to go back to that period where they existed but were totally captured?).

[@faisalkamal4319]

I tell you all went downhill after the death of Remus

[@colindunnigan8621]

I know, right!

[@tribunateSPQR]

I was wondering why the society founded on fratricide loved civil war so much

[@Maphisto86]

@@tribunateSPQR Who could have known!

[@TobyTubeS]

Would really suck if a political figure were to employ this same rhetoric to advance the curtailment of rights in 2025. Glad that we have learned from history and that dosen't happen anymore.

[@jacobbass6030]

Imagine thinking any politician alive today is anything near the level of Sulla or Caesar.

[@internet5076]

Biden is the one who pardoned his entire family the last day of holding office. Reminds me of late Roman republic times. 😄

[@jacobbass6030]

@ the villains aren’t even cool anymore. They’re all just cucks like Cato.

[@ajeuscher7988]

@@internet5076 You know you can dislike Biden and Trump right? Attacking Biden doesn't undermine the whole of the lefts worldview, unlike attacking Trump does for the right

[@crackshack2]

@@ajeuscher7988The left is obsessed with Trump and hates being held to their own standards of behavior and conduct.

[@wouefn]

Sulla, obviously, wasn't the only one. Albeit not a case of "nostalgia", Cicero was rabidly anti land reform and he was the greatest intellectual of the conservatives. The ultimate victory of Julius Caesar and, therefore, of the populares, was, ultimately, the victory of land reform in Rome -- something that would, dialectically, give birth to the Empire phase of the city.

[@nicolascavadini3570]

conquering gaul killing a third of its inhabitants and enslaving another third sure give the roman elite the space required to give out lands to the poor while still being able to increase their possessions. America is kind of on the same path : draining europe/asia to keep regular joes afloat while still enriching the top 1%.

[@Cagliostro81]

You forgot to mention the worst one of them all: Marcus Porcius “Muh grandfather and the Mos Maiorum” Cato Salonianus. Dude literally is literally the perfect example of unreasonable conservative nostalgia.

[@lunatickoala]

@@Cagliostro81 It really runs in the family. Cato the Elder and Cato the Younger weren't much better.

[@Apocalypso-w3i]

Every culture has its mythological “Good Old Days,” and there literally never were “Good Old Days.”

[@ProvencaLeGaulois]

"this is a fundamental aspect of being human that we all share" thank you for using this turn of phrase, I've always found that "human nature" was an overrated concept and didn't actually refer to anything really.

[@tribunateSPQR]

"Human nature" is an important concept but you're right that it can be overused watering down its meaning

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

The study of history helps you realise that nostalgia is an inaccurate feeling - which is yet another reason why it should be studied more!!!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Agreed!

[@rpannier]

Interesting in your video talking about the past and how we had less responsibility and applying this myth to politics sounded quite the same as what my late-father said years ago, "The past is often better because we didn't have bills to pay and the responsibilities we do as adults."

[@TransgenderAncientHistory]

An autocrat using false nostalgia to usher in a dictatorship... I wonder what it is that made you decide to do this video now of all times 🤔🤔🤔

[@tribunateSPQR]

Fortunately I think this happened exactly one time and then never again.

[@internet5076]

Biden the one who's pardoned every single member of his family the last day of holding office. Reminds me of late Roman republic times. 😄

[@tisisonlytemporary]

​@@internet5076nothing like the nostalgic slogan "make America great AGAIN" 😂😂

[@benkubisiak1459]

​@internet5076 I mean it makes sense if the other party has been calling for your sons head for the last few years. That bring said I don't like Biden. I think it's his failures that allowed Trump to return to power.

[@LuizAlexPhoenix]

​@@internet5076 I mean, from the outside y'all look exactly like the late empire. Each time someone tells me that it's the opposition's fault I just chuckle and wonder how a nation so obssesed with Roma can enact such a farse without breaking into laughter.

[@portocaiofs]

Keep up the good work! Excellent video

[@tribunateSPQR]

thank you!

[@marybennett4573]

Love this channel!

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

Sulla also destroyed the last bits of Athenian democracy. The only actually working concept of government that ever existed.

[@ashutoshtripathi.]

I hope your channel blows up some day.

[@tribunateSPQR]

you and me both haha but honestly I am still overwhelmed by the support being shown at present.

[@ashutoshtripathi.]

@@tribunateSPQR keep up the great work!

[@EmuCavalry]

The weird thing about Conservatism is that it's one of the most transient ideologies out there.

[@Ravi9A]

"Neglected the bringing up of children" yet another strong defense for the economic argument.

[@t1t0s89]

Loved the last line of commentary.

[@darrynmurphy4764]

I've long thought that Trump reminded me of Sulla, glad someone else thought the same

[@tribunateSPQR]

You're not the only one who thinks so - Elon Musk sees a resemblance but he thinks its a good thing

[@treelzebub]

thank god humanity was able to move beyond being hoodwinked by nostalgia for a false past that leads to undermining the core principles of republics 🙃

[@tribunateSPQR]

It's a huge relief for sure

[@matthewmcneany]

Whilst I agree that nostalgia can be intoxicating and misleading, and this is the predominant cause of 'back in my day...' thinking there are times when for some groups of people their material conditions are in decline, when inequality is rising, or when plague, famine or war (or all three) are actually making things worse in a real measurable way. If I had a nickel for every time a global financial crisis seems to have directly led to the rise of fascism I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's funny that it happened twice, etc..

[@Warmaker01]

Nostalgia is very sweet in how you fondly remember how something ideally used to be. However, you often forget the wider scope of facts, events around it. Maybe even ignore the negative parts of an era. In the USA I've often seen 1950s America being held up as a sweet golden age. Wife staying at home taking care of the kids while the man is out there as the breadwinner. Something like the "Leave it to Beaver" TV show household. Modern demands to return to that, force women to stay at home while the man is out there working. This vision falls apart completely because there's several things going on with 1950s America that later decades could never replace. The United States coming out of WWII was at the perfect jumping point. Europe's old powerful, colonial empires were devastated by *two* World Wars. WWII irrevocably broke their empires and put them in a downward spiral. Europe, much of Asia, particularly China and Japan, were in ruins. For many countries there's the instability as their governments are completely replaced. Some have asked if the USSR ever truly recovered from WWII. Meanwhile the US industry was untouched by war and had heated up as the conflict went on. In the post-WWII years, especially with the Marshall Plan, the USA was building for much of the world, exporting products. The economy at home was booming while the world was recovering from devastation. In this period, the middle class American family with the husband as the sole worker could earn enough money to take care of his family and have a home. That is the image of the classic, well off American family. As the rest of the world recovers, now there's competition and things get harder for the United States. Fantastic example is bombed out and ruined Japan's automotive industry dominates America in the 1980s. Fast forward to the 1980s and the idea of a stay home wife + one or two kids, with only the husband bringing in all the money was less and less viable. By the 1990s it was laughable. Fast forward to the 2020s, minimum wage for much of the USA can't even pay rent. Buy a house and have money for kids? 🤣

[@sevelofficial2696]

A lesson more important than ever

[@WorthlessWinner]

I dunno if nostalgia drove Sulla. He seemed to push policies he thought would help his group (ignoring other groups) and used "historic precedent" to justify what he wanted to do anyway. The tribunate could THEORETICALLY do a lot of things, which it did do in early history if we believe accounts, but stopped doing in the punic war era. It seems like they got co-opted by the senate and stopped actually doing their job for a while, for w/e reason

[@maxschreck4095]

Very interesting lecture ^^

[@tribunateSPQR]

thanks!!

[@Carelock]

On a roll posting I see!

[@Tygerhart]

The average person doesn't know enough about Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix. I'd love to see a movie or mini-series based on Sulla, instead of another Julius Caesar story or, worse yet, another "Gladiator".

[@spaghettiking7312]

Sulla wanted to make Rome great again.

[@KhalerJex]

audio is a bit low

[@actualGolem]

10:33 : this is kinda like the enclosures in England prior to the industrial revolution, maybe?

[@LouAlvis]

"{history may not repeat itself, but it sure does Rhyme," Mark Twain. I love how many of these posyts, seem to be so very timely and topical. like the one on the final elevation of Augustus, this n and others seems to be shining a light on these our own time of False Nostalgia. "Make ROME Great Again!"

[@WorthlessWinner]

The senate did seem to dominate roman politics for about a century before Gracchi bros so there might have been a time for Sulla to look back to - but that was more due to a bunch of historic factors like the punic wars, Sulla couldn't just roll back the clock by fiat in the absence of those factors, as the collapse of his reforms showed

[@altimetrosencero8553]

Taking down the Sulla mith, great!

[@screetstreet3232]

LOVE THIE CHANEELLLL❤❤❤❤

[@sebastianmaharg]

Please increase the master volume when you render your videos. It's very quiet on cell phone speakers

[@nickyman5557]

You should do a video about “the Roman salute” 🙄😒

[@tribunateSPQR]

I have been considering it - only problem is that it just isn't my area of expertise and I think by the time I knew enough to comment the story will have faded.

[@deepfried13]

Make Rome Great Again

[@Apollo1989V]

The Hebrew Bible contains examples of nostalgia. The wilderness wandering created nostalgia for Egypt, turning slavery into a paradise in the minds of the disgruntled people. Nostalgia also affected the exiles, making them think that Assyrian yoke was super and that the recent misfortune was due to them having to abandon Assyrian paganism.

[@PeterHill-f2n]

MRGA = Make Rome Great Again

[@Kai_Peters]

Welcome to the comment section! In my opinion, [American banker stooge, blue tie] is far superior to [American banker stooge, red tie]. Please get angry and argue with me

[@nicolascavadini3570]

Maybe, just maybe, which american banker stooge, whatever his tie color, gets the presidency is not what politics is about. What policies are actually getting implemented should be. And whatever your level of cynism, policies are not the same (or at least shouldn't be) on the left and on the right ... (Is this angry argumentation enough ?)

[@JuusoAlasuutari]

Bothsidesing eh?

[@stevejohnson3357]

History rhymes. MAGA loyalist also talk about restoring the republic and their opponents talk about defending democracy from assault. One other thing: Marcus Aurelius described himself as a monarch while making it clear he was not a king.

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

Great video - unfortunately all too relevant

[@JohnJohnson-du7vc]

If nostalgia is a universal human experience, yet a "cognitive limitation", so too would be grief, joy, or any other universal result of cognition. Perhaps cognition itself is the limiting factor, considering the brain is a very complex organ subject to failure and inefficiency like other organs. It certainly seems able to delude itself.

[@bluelithium9808]

Weird when the oligarchs own everything there are negative consequences.

[@theuncomfortabletruth3928]

Sulla really tried to save the republic. It completely backfired, but his intentions were noble. The era of the republic he was trying to recreate did exist: from 287 B.C. (Hortensian Law passes) to 133 B.C. (Tiberius Gracchi inaugurates political misbehavior) there was no destibilization in government. The senate indeed ruled supreme, with the vast majority of Consuls just being executive agents of the collective head of state (the Senate). The republic worked, and it worked well: troubles and feuds were dealt with words in the Senate, not daggers in the street. And while Sulla failed, it was Caesar who really killed the republic.

[@AkRYDER0]

His intentions were not noble. He took all power from the poor and murdered his peers for personnel profit(proscriptions). He also opposed Italian fraternity until it became politically impossible. He only stopped the violence by murdering all his opponents and causing the rest to flee. Sulla was a disaster for the Republic.

[@raulpetrascu2696]

​​@@AkRYDER0I think his intentions were better than the others of his time. Compare with his opponent Marius who did a massacre just for revenge and ego. Sulla did reform the constitution, including creating courts to hold magistrates accountable and codifying harder limits on skipping through the cursus honorum, and he indeed was addressing real issues he was trying to fix like political violence and instability -then he resigned as dictator. But he did try improve Rome in his view, even if you and I believe his ideas were wrong and wouldn't work. Most of the rest were either as misinformed or looking out just for number 1 like opportunists Pompey, Crassus. The big problem with Sulla is that in marching on Rome by force the precedent he set ironically lead to the collapse of the Republic he was trying to prevent I think the return to old days angle is overstated, I'm pretty sure Sulla knew his changes were revolutionary and what was to him necessary. But he dressed it up to the public as a restoration rather than a new era. Also I'm not sure what you mean about "Italian fraternity", Sulla was a commander in the Social War and obeyed his orders with distinction, his success there is how he became popular. Rome's concession and Italian rights were passed before he became consul. Again I think nerfing the tribune of the plebs is BAD and assassinating people is bad, but I have to agree with the above comment. He tried to save the Republic

[@theuncomfortabletruth3928]

@@AkRYDER0 Like I wrote: 'Sulla really TRIED to save the republic. It COMPLETELY backfired' This doesn't mean he didn't try to save it. He literally gave power back to the Senate to restore stability again. Like the one existing before Tiberius Gracchi appeared to ruin everything. He was a true republican. His constitution could well have worked, but Pompey and other of his lieutenants ignored his reforms after he passsed away. Sulla used despotism very riefly to try to restore power to the Senate, therefore strenghtening the republic (the republican golden age is that in which the Senate held the reins of power, which ended with Tiberius Gracchi). You can't say the same about Caesar. He literally wanted to be a king. He emasculated the Senate.

[@MrDesmorto]

comment

[@Meraj_1983]

We get it, you don't like Trump lol

[@TaylorCourtland]

It’s hilarious that you made a video discussing the dangers and pitfalls of analyzing history through the lens of right-wing ideology and then shamelessly proceeded to publish a video analyzing history through a left-wing lens without acknowledging its own pitfalls and dangers. Your efforts are barley shrouded.

[@illerac84]

Poor you

[@TaylorCourtland]

@@illerac84 Outstanding argument. It’s a relief to observe such a genuine intellectual in action.

[@redstatesaint]

Unlike right-wingers, left wingers are not shy to openly proclaim their political leanings...in reading history or governance. Are there pitfalls?...always. Are they worse than fascistic reconstructions of the Roman empire? Absolutely not. Right wingers on the other hand always hide behind the saying "facts" a thousand times to assert that the sun rises in the west. It is almost that they are ashamed of how they openly and constantly lie.

[@TheHorseOutside]

History, particularly that of Rome, has been seen through a right-wing lens for centuries. Examining it from the left is just course correction.

[@boozecruiser]

Historical analysis is the basis of left wing ideas. Historical mythology is the basis of right wing ideas. I was right wing before I studied classics to a master's degree level

[@nathanembry9245]

While i dislike the obvious take on current politics in your history videos, i do absolutely love every time im reminded of how pissed off Harris supporters are still!!!

[@jacobbass6030]

Sulla was a chad, as was his successor, Caesar.

[@trentwolfgram9571]

Bootlicking through the millennium's worth of hindsight is incredible levels of bootlickery. Off the charts readings of homestuck failson

[@jacobbass6030]

@@trentwolfgram9571 cry about it. If Caesar ran for office today I’d vote for him.

[@reneedailey1696]

Cringe.

[@weld546]

Amen brother

[@joshkorte9020]

Sulla destroyed all semblance of stability in Rome, causing its destruction. But then again, people like you are too dense to realize that men like that are truly bad.