Avernus: Quality Hidden In Controversy

[@pockewindfish]

Good video, Mr. NothingIsScary Fishy... Two things. The level was always an antagonist, as can be seen in the first preview uploaded by El3ctr0. And secondly, I told Zoink to make it Top 5. He didn't know it was top 1, neither did I.. F.I.S.H out! 🐠🐟

[@VandGD]

Bruh 💀

[@GDMakar51]

Ok I know about the top 5 thing before, but I legit thought it was a sequel. but I guess this level is basically the Scorpion Circles VIP of the golden (kind of) *SCORPION CIRCLES V.I.P IS A REMAKE OF SCORPION CIRCLES,* This is an antagonist.

[@zoomifly]

hey there khyros

[@eeeyrie]

i guess it was top 5 after all

[@topaztheguy]

The way you talked about the theming of Avernus and The Golden was really interesting. I never knew what Avernus actually was and the myths surrounding it, and just assumed it has something to do with hell. Also, I agree that the beginning of Avernus looks pretty bad, though I was never able to pinpoint what I didn’t like about it. I like the fact that you explained why you didn’t like it, because I rarely see anyone constructively critique Avernus’s deco.

[@jerryAAAAAAA]

16:15 felt like he a god dam movie detective finding a key piece of evidence

[@UnflippedGD]

I used to disagree with your gd opinions but overtime you grew on me and I agree with you the most out of any gd content creator. You earned a sub today

[@NothingIsScary]

Thanks!

[@lazerbuffalo1431]

same

[@liminall]

Its such a shame that kyhros and the merger made the level worse because they didnt care about it.

[@arjinali9260]

Isn't khyros a pockywindfish alt account

[@ENDI8089]

​@@arjinali9260🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@RealMysticalMan]

@@arjinali9260 Yes

[@arjinali9260]

Ok

[@exiled_shadegd]

@@arjinali9260other way around

[@rixbyte7438]

I never thought of the historical details of the golden and avernus, I think Bo originally must've based the level off that way and it would explain the contrast they have, it's a good concept but the execution failed miserably thanks to the change of hosts, such a shame really.

[@GDMakar51]

The decoration of Avernus May be good, but due to the end screen AND the fact that everything is on the same layer, I am kind of disgusted by that. Yes I think the decoration's beautiful, but due to the layering problem, I'm turned off by it. EITHER someone decided to just turn the parts into custom objects and put them on a layer, or it was an account moving mistake. (or what ever the term is).

[@ifcatsweregamers2048]

This is unrelated to the level but it’s cool how in avernus it leads to hell and the next level on the list is Acheron which is a river that leads deeper into hell. It’s like you entered hell and the next level is going deeper

[@witherworld8969]

Avernus comes after acheron

[@yeetboie64]

​@@witherworld8969nah bro check the list

[@hyperviolet1717]

and then silent clubstep ruins it

[@itzlollo888]

at least finally someone defends Zoink since it was never his fault.

[@zeenoh5811]

I once got a bit of flak ranking avernus as the best top 10 lol. I like it for 2 reasons: the progression is done really nicely. the drop feels strangely as if you're surfing across a lake of lava. Maybe it's a contrast with the difficulty but at least it looks really cool watching the level. Also I just love any non-standard progression, so the inclusion of the second drop is cool I also think it's a funny statement on the demonlist, whether intentional or not. Yes the fixed hitboxes are terrible, but when has quality ever mattered in the history of the demonlist? Erebus is one of my least favourite levels ever and it was top 1. The list has always had garbage levels, and Avernus made me realise that the demonlist is cool because of the difficulty and NOTHING else. speedrunning super mario bros is the equivalent of waterboarding yet so many choose to do it. Difficulty is going to get pushed no matter what and Avernus is just a strange manifestation of that. I really liked the video, I'm glad some review channels still exist outside Wherwin and Colon. I do disagree with the theming point though, I think that's both the Golden and Avernus's weakest aspects. Yeah your analysis is really cool but look how far you had to dig to get that? El Dorado is way more straightforward, it's about traversing traps in the form of moving blocks and tight timings, then you actually visit the city. The golden is a glow deco level that has the only hint of theming at the endscreen. Avernus is similar, the theming went completely over people's heads because it's barely there. It's a really cool concept in theory, but there is a reason it went over everybody's heads. Sorry for the long comment I am very bored rn

[@JustPsychoo69]

i fully agree with this avernus is really interesting

[@unnetted]

I agree, honestly Avernus is also really unique as a top 1, thanks to how hated it is. As Diamond said it, a top 1 people are "scared of" is something unheard of. What other level would get that big of reaction for getting moved up? Makes it so much more interesting than a lot of past/upcoming top 1s

[@leafyumm]

about avernus' gameplay i do believe its better than alot of other top 10's just because both diamond and zoink say its fun, and since nobody else (that i know of) have significant progress i havent really heard much negative about it

[@unnetted]

trick also played it and has said that avernus doesn't suck, so the gp can't be so bad if everyone who's played it likes it

[@zJannisPech]

Trick actually said that the fixed hitboxed dont really make it that bad

[@inflamass9139]

I really thought Avernus was underrated but I just couldnt explain why, so ty!

[@soup26_GD]

I really like your positive point of view. I know the lake Avernus, but because I'm not english I never knew the level's name was referring to that lake! I think the story of the level (and its poetic relation to The Golden) is so interesting, and I agree that a rushed level is better than an unreleased level lost to time. I also like how you put us in Zoink's perspective, the video is paced really well. Avernus gets a lot of hate, but I still think it should be appreciated for what it does well, and your video does exactly that. Good job!

[@SupaCLUCK]

Avernus actually uses multiple editor layers. Because the editor allows for objects to be on two layers at once and collab parts typically have to be moved around or tweaked individually after being placed in a level, what many collab mergers do when merging parts is put entire parts on a second layer while keeping the objects on their first layer. All you have to do to get them on their correct layers without worrying about the problem of them being only on one layer is to simply select the part and change its editor layer 2 to 0. The last part of the level is on one layer, though, but I assume its merging was rushed considering that it was a part from a creator contest and it initially won 2nd place, so it was probably switched with the 1st place part at the last second.

[@NameName-ho3ej]

this level is like the modern day killbot everyone hates it because they think the gameplay is bad because it sounds really bad on paper, but then people beat it and they say its good, then everyone loves it

[@caramelldansen8485]

It's like the opposite of Astral Divinity lol

[@greenshell805]

avernus is overhated, people claim acheron is better but top players say that acheron is not fun but avernus is fun and avernus also has better decoration. People also complain about the fixed hitboxes in avernus yet they don't care about the fixed hitboxes in acheron.

[@ProbablyAparrently]

Great video! You really have a way with words.

[@mrdan31]

List of levels (that i have knowledge of) that have fixed hitboxes: Avernus Tartarus Mayhem Ruthless(unnerfed) Firework Slaughterhouse Acheron Aeternus Limbo Please write some that you know!

[@lopzinc]

firework has 1 random mega fixed hitbox in the infamous orb ship

[@mrdan31]

​@@lopzincthanks

[@lolagondola4574]

acheron

[@qoldfire]

limbo has at 48%

[@sambailey566]

​@@qoldfireas well as in survs part (especially 72-74)

[@JBLilPaper]

If the theme was the player searching for the gates of hell, why is the entire level a hell level and not just the end? The Golden is the player searching for a golden city in a jungle, so the entire level is in the jungle with the end screen being the city. Avernus couldn’t follow the same theme as The Golden, simply because the entire level is hell, and not the player searching for hell

[@namespelldwrong9779]

20 minutes of content and not once was the pillsbury doughboys brought up sadge but this was still an amazing analysis. keep up the banger content

[@robotpotato7943]

I think Avernus shows exactly what can be done wrong during the creating process of a level, but also shows what can be done right. The problem is that the things done right are vastly overshadowed by what is done wrong because the community is only talking about that part of the level, and also PockeWindfish ruining the level and basically forcing Zoink to buff the level in probably the worst way possible doesn’t help either.

[@miserablecardinalsfan]

ya this would probably be one of my favorite levels if zoink and pockewindfish weren't involved with this level

[@KPoWasTaken]

​@@miserablecardinalsfanIf Zoink was verifier but pockewindfish hadn't been involved, the level wouldn't be forced to top 1. It was pockewinfish that told Zoink to make it top 1

[@PollarisTheGD]

6:22 I think this is COMPLETELY valid. You're such a Chad 👍!

[@petracora]

Brave of you to put this video out, respect

[@CmcFuuu23]

The way you talked about this actually makes it so much interesting. The deco of the first part is really bad but the rest of it isnt that bad untill the almost end where there is white and red/orange color, which doesnt fits with the theme and the colors of the level. Zoink actually did the good job in buffing without messing the deco up which is really hard to do. The theme is actually really interesting to me, even though it’s hell theme, it feels like you’re actually feels like the underworld and not like slaughterhouse, or like any other hell themed level. I dont really know why people blames Zoink on it, he just did what he supposed to do.

[@RealMysticalMan]

1:34 That song brought back a lot of memories, wow. Anyways, I'm glad this video is here to exist just because there aren't a lot of videos at all that discuss the actual hidden quality Avernus has. Most just say that the buffs ruin the level which is partially true because of the questionable gameplay but people forget the gameplay would be very fun only if it was easier. Not to say that the buffs in Avernus are good, but keep in mind it is not Zoink's fault they are there and it is the creator's fault, so it is entirely justifiable to dislike the level because of the questionable gameplay and the fixed hitboxes. People ignore the decoration and focus on gameplay most in Avernus, such a shame. Pockewindfish not only ruined this level's reputation, but his own. This level brought out the worst of him, and you can see that from his comments in Geometry Dash and his own KZbin videos. He constantly disrespects everybody who expresses their negative thoughts of Avernus, which is wild. After all, they can give valid criticisms to Pockewindfish for him and his team to improve the level. It is obvious that Pockewindfish did not care about this level and just w anted to easily make a level that gets to be top 1. He shows this most clearly by having Zoink buff this to top 1.

[@pockewindfish]

If you thoroughly read my comments and discord messages you would see that I have never received any constructive criticism. It's not easy to be a fish and also have to manage a top 1

[@Gazebr]

12:30 if you make fixed hitboxes visible then they arent "fixed" anymore. Now its just literally a new normal spike Imo this problem is very similar to 240 vs 360 fps. You have a default hitbox/setting which is the standart, the difference is everyone is used to default spike so changing its hitbox just messes up your brain which is used to normal spikes + for outside viewers its hard to understand why one level with fixed hitboxes is so hard while another similar one without them is just a normal extreme demon. There should absolutely be no problem in just raising the spikes (EXCEPT in situations like this where the verifier literally cant buff the level without making it look ugly, which is a creator issue in the first place). Also in case of fps drama there are standarts on both sides of 240 - 60/90 and 360 so thats why most of casuals like me are happy and 360 pros are mad.

[@Fudge_]

13:33 wdym the new lord vaadercraft does he have a bad reputation with verifications

[@petrikhorr]

very much so, i don't entirely know why, but there was at least some with eyes in the water for sure

[@NothingIsScary]

Lordvadercraft used to have a reputation for bad verifications. Mainly came from mayhem

[@Fudge_]

@@NothingIsScary ohh

[@unnetted]

Zoink getting asked to buff it to top 1 is wrong. It wasn't ever forced to be top 1. Zoink was asked to make it top 5, according both to him and Pockewindfish Also, Pockewindfish said that he became a host because everyone else dropped the level. If that's true then I don't think it's completely fair to blame him for everything. Aside from this, I agree with everything else. Avernus is really overhated imo

[@Zewind]

This is a really awesome take on avernus Im getting kind of sick of everyone just completely shitting on this level. There was even a video where someone said it was the worst rated level ever which I disagree While i dont like how its buffed just so it can be top 1, I agree with most of your points. As an art creator I really enjoy thematic levels like this, its orange instead of generic black and red with usage of lava and fire. Mixed with the gameplay and the song its visually a very nice level that I honestly quite like Also i never realized the hidden theming of the golden and avernus which gave me some increased respect for it ngl Not great as a top 1, but pretty good as a level overall imo

[@DJOverturned]

People really be hating on Avernus more than Silent Clubstep and Sakupen Circles which I don't understand I wrote this months ago but if I were to beat Silent Clubstep/Sakupen Circles I would say "God I finally beat this garbage level" and then feel remorse wasting months of my life on them If I were to beat Avernus I would feel like I really passed the gates of hell to get through and beat it (cause the theming and the song is great) Just my opinion though +people shouldn't hate on Zoink that badly for the buffs, you should check the level in the editor and see the structuring 💀 it would give an experienced creator trouble to buff let alone Zoink who doesn't even know what a move trigger is

[@ItsNerou]

For me it just the fact that they buff it just to be top 1 and people are somewhat mad zoink for buffing it even tho they ask zoink to literally buff it

[@unnetted]

zoink was only asked to make it top 5

[@KyoukiTheTerminator]

Maybe PockeWindFish will give you your organs back now

[@NothingIsScary]

jokes on him i poisoned my organs!

[@JustPsychoo69]

Zoink getting all the blame on him isn't fair the hosts deserve it especially PockeWindFish.

[@X3m.Gaming]

if i herd these things about avernus decoration being passable like 6 years ago when i tried to get star rated level... honestly i cant even imagine how bad i would feel. probably on same level as trying to beat avernus as day 1 player bad. its weird that i moved on now and gave up from even trying to make star rated level with how dumb (not high) standarts are. anyways all of that is unrelated but i still mention it because its gonna be forever stuck in my memory how i failed to get rated level. i tried to make fixed hitboxes myself and play around with them. i feel like avernus has bad fixed hitboxes. they just poke out too far out of the spike to even be fair sometimes.

[@heitorboladao2166]

Ah yes, the OFFICIAL demon list, my favorite

[@Sevant]

I love how one phrase at the end of this video calls back to an Anubis video on The Golden lmao was that even intentional

[@RealGWCJ]

I’ve forevered wondered why people hate Avernus. The deco is good (conical depression and Acheron). I can’t input on optimization because I have a NASA PC. The identity is the same as the Tartarus sequel. I don’t want to make fun of Acheron but a lot of similarities Avernus does better.

[@Itzturkeymc]

I think Zoink should have had someone else buff it instead because there probably is someone out there that can fix the deco. Good video and well thought out btw :D

[@andreycze]

I feel like people hate on this level mainly because other big youtuber told them to, not because they would actually look at it by themselves and make up their own opinion, and thats the main problem why its so hated

[@excuse_me_what_99990]

one more thing about the deco, its extremely unoptimized and each part is on its own layer so its not like you can go and optimize it yourself

[@TheNico2000]

0:05 Silent clubstep, silent club

[@RealMysticalMan]

Silent Clubstep isn't even good for its time, that's how bad it is.

[@ENDI8089]

Pockewindfish is probably a 5 year old he didnt care about the level theme or playability he just cared about having a top 1

[@SkyFlyR1]

This video opens my mind about Avernus since every single opinion on this video is reasonably logical

[@peterszollos5280]

btw everyone who plays levels like this have turn on show hitboxes on death so fixed hitboxes dont really matter in these levels, the only thing is bad about avernus is the bad optimazition, so who is saying that avernus is bad because of the hitboxes are dumb because none of top players said this, only wavix but i dont know where did he hear this

[@BritishManDia]

Anytime anyone ever says avernus is the worst level on the list, just remember that abyss of darkness exists. I don’t really like avernus but when it comes to bad levels, aod cannot be topped.

[@unnetted]

Silent Clubstep and Thinking Space are also on the list

[@lewkeee]

Avernus: Quality Hidden In Controversy

[@Badmarchapril]

I liked my own reply

[@lewkeee]

@@Badmarchapril Badmarchapril i know you

[@Omeggaomelet]

What was the original title?

[@Badmarchapril]

@@lewkeee I know you aswell lewkeee

[@mrdan31]

Very good video, keep up with the good content!

[@Starlyrra_II]

10:06 Diamond got 89% offstream btw! ;)

[@spookypuky2439]

I like Avernus. My deco standards aren’t high, pretty low, but ye. I will say some parts are beautiful and some are not. Song is a banger. I will try to get some small runs in for sure. Could have been a lot better but I still think it’s cool‼️

[@TcaIdk]

the golden is actually a sequel to el dorado

[@SamDaTree]

Nothing is scary is my fav yt channel to watch before sleep

[@MagmaFrogg]

6:22 YES GOATED OPINION I HAVE AGREED WITH THIS FOREVER OMFG

[@zBleep]

I totally agree, Zoink did the level a favor by at the very least caring it compared to the creators. He shouldn't be taking this much hate for Pocke's error.

[@bjrnalmlof6128]

We should start calling them broken hitboxes, robtobs default hitboxes are great, they have the perfect amount of give imo

[@KPoWasTaken]

The underworld doesn't necessarily mean hell, just saying. I mean quite often it does but I thought it was worth mentioning the underworld is not necessarily hell

[@MastermindForce]

Imo, Fixed hitboxes really shouldn't matter as all the levels on the demon list are just trying to be as insufferable to play as possible, and Avernus does that really well

[@plushdragonanimator3901]

this is the best take in gd

[@nykoiscool]

incredibly good video ! brings up a lot of good points :)

[@EMOJlZ]

I honestly preferred your videos before they had music in them. They were calmer and it was easier to hear you IMO. One of the main things I knew about you was that you didn’t need music to make an entertaining video. You can keep going with what your doing but I really would just prefer if kept the music to your iceberg videos

[@Dottylel]

To be honest I hate avernus just because the fixed hitboxes but the design of the level is great and everything about the level is great also you said the demon list is full of high-quality levels, silent club step and silent club : are you sure about that? Besides those two levels the demon list has pretty high-quality levels. Edit: currently diamond has 89% on avernus (check his community tab for proof)

[@botyyzas5358]

was that the bite of 87%

[@rrehx]

ok but what about Amethyst

[@Tex582]

If any level puts in enough effort it should at least get a star rate

[@kinggamereon653]

Tidal wave rate when 😭

[@charr420]

correct opinion

[@Tex582]

@@kinggamereon653 😭

[@TehKonde]

Im not gonna lie you definetly cooked with this one. I actually love Avernus believe it or not and this video feels like im being understood. The hate for this level is so overdone its insane and eventho there are alott of good points made about the bad stuff its still so dumb to say that Avernus is a down right BAD level. There is so many worse levels in my opinion like Abyss Of Darkness and Stereo Madness V4. The people who have actually made progress on the level said its fun and its so dumb to say that the level is unfun when 2 of the only people who play the level say its fun. Overall W video

[@SmilerTigerGD]

5:21 I'm sorry HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THAT AVERNUS IS A GOOD SEQUEL TO THE GOLDEN????? Right so your saying a level where you try to find hell through lake avernus is a good sequel to a level where you go through a JUNGLE to find ELDORADO???? ok avernus does good as a top 20 not a top 1 and I do think the concept of avernus is actually really cool but its just that uhh yeah the deco is mid af the optimization is horrible every part is on its own layer so making an ldm is like impossible. I get that its your opinion but idek why this just pisses me off

[@ICantThinkOfANameeeee]

I think all objects being on layer 106 is a pretty bad thing, and if that is the only reason why it has fixed hitboxes, then they suck.

[@caiobrplays]

Why is this a 2 second markiplier meme now?

[@NothingIsScary]

I broke it in youtube studio. Its fixed now

[@petrikhorr]

-the theming thing is actually really cool -i feel like there's at least *some* way to show the buffed hitboxes. i get that you can't really change the level itself because of the groups, but even so you can still do *something* to make it not completely dishonest. -i despise "pockewindfish" (not a real person) there could not be a more childish host.

[@GDProxified]

Using the invisible spike (The one uses in Clubstep) will not only make the deco not ruined (maybe) but also make you see the spike

[@crashveretia8046]

Not a real person??? Explain, im clueless here...

[@GDProxified]

@@crashveretia8046 Pockewindfish is Kyhros's alt account. He use the alt account to make war and controversy about the lvl. Nothingisscary also had made a video about the controversy, may want to check it out

[@rookie5026]

To be fair, I think the gameplay probably gets the most hate. Sure it has a lot of fixed hitboxes but if you are a good player and can get used to them the level actually seems to be pretty fun. It still isn't too good but it was something everyone dunked on when they weren't nearly good enough to play it. Still rest isn't too good

[@FinnishArsonist]

I think something interesting that a lot of people don't talk about in regards to the controversy of this level is actually, two other levels: Thinking Space and Silent Clubstep. Both of these levels, when taken through an "objective" lens, are... really bad. Looking at how top players have enjoyed it, SC consistently scores stuff like 0/100. Just a completely miserable experience. Thinking Space too not only has top players not liking the experience, but also has just completely awful decoration, even for it's time. Like come on, Death Moon existed. But I have never seen anybody complain about these levels, and that is because of the accomplishment. So taking avernus, a level which has not great, but not terrible gameplay according to top players, and has decoration that many consider not great (although honestly I think it's alright), and has a legacy and is a huge accomplishement, it really doesn't stack up to how bad Thinking space is. Though at least SC has an amazing story behind it.

[@Aerobrake]

I agree with everything you said.

[@sjr2799]

3 types of creators of top 1s: Onilink - You don't really hear about him much but nobody hates them Riot - Makes too many top 1s but high quality Then there's- Pockewindfish - Bad level and bad creator. EVERYTHING IS BAD Also NothingIsScary seems to be lying lol.

[@maximyllion]

robtop's hitboxes are good actually

[@iRWQFSFASXCi]

Avernus is a sequel to Golden (Bo is so much better host than pocketfish)

[@klampassn9987]

Avernus get to much hate because of unoptimized deco and fix hitbox but can you really blame a slight mistake? Avernus song and element really make it top 1 it's sound like you fight the last boss

[@GMDGeojumper2011-bl8sx]

Bro if deco looks good, it is good. Time doesn’t equal quality

[@Lazerfighter101]

say sike right now

[@iRWQFSFASXCi]

10:10 BITE OF 87!

[@jammin1336]

Lake avernus? River acheron? HUH

[@jaywinged]

mushroom tidal wave 🤑

[@jjgh5421]

Cool video

[@Legatron17]

fair enough.

[@meatballmoose]

Who wants to find hell?

[@Bcordepic]

you spelled peakvernus wrong

[@idaoii]

WAS THAT THE COMMENT OF 87?!

[@MrMarcusGD]

I wonder how much pocke paid you to make this video

[@NothingIsScary]

pockewindfish hates me because Ive pointed out that pockewindfish is Khyros's alt

[@MrMarcusGD]

@@NothingIsScary bro you literally said the opposite you said in your previous avernus vid

[@xeroxtra]

You do realize Avernus has been in the works for over a year right?

[@NothingIsScary]

yes. i mention that

[@devadatta0]

yes

[@sjr2799]

I think either way, pockewindfish had something to do with this video. I'm not trusting it.

[@Lingling223]

39 likes

[@terminusfinity009]

aetercearartaracheravernus

[@olivierlacroix8827]

I always said I like avernus because anernus is satisfying to watch. I like the song, the deco is fine. Even though it's tutorial Lava, the Lava looks good so I don't really care. And finally idc about gameplay since I'm not playing the level.

[@olivierlacroix8827]

There Is one ship wave dual near the beginning that is so awesome.

[@lopzinc]

cool

[@dereckteixeira9520]

Its cool i guess

[@Toiletassasin]

we don't have a miracle, we just have avernus and that's all i need