Anti-Trans Ideology Threatens All Of Our Freedoms | Judith Butler Meets Ash Sarkar

[@tangimeme]

"Are we bringing vibes to a gun fight" is such an iconic line and the perfect way to express that sentiment 😂

[@ayeright320]

Means nothing

[@lavienestpasunlongfleuvetr2559]

No, trans activists are bringing lies to a war on the truth.

[@sayakafermi5725]

Einstein: "What many people refer to as common sense is nothing more than a collection of prejudices accumulated before the age of eighteen." (Quoted in Lincoln Barnett, _The Universe and Dr. Einstein _ )

[@maverickspirit208]

I came here to take a deeper look into pro trans trans movement and I listened for 19 minutes and 44 seconds, and Butler hasn't directly answered a single question! Everything that comes out of her mouth is twisted.

[@TheSlinq]

There is no logic to the pro-trans movement, in fact when faced with logic it withers up and dies.

[@urbansetter1]

The entire movement is twisted

[@Gingerblaze]

@@urbansetter1 thats the entire point of the theory. Sometimes also called "sophistry"

[@0olong]

The problem here is that some things are quite complicated, you see

[@jamakaya1332]

To post-modern thinkers, everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- is relative.

[@janearmstrong7945]

like a surprising number of middle-aged alternative people, I wasn't particularly open to new ideas on gender. My children told me just to sit down and watch a bit of Judith and maybe eat a biscuit. Over time, I was able to understand a little better. I would really recommend Judith Butler and Biscuits approach, rather than massively freaking out and radicalising yourself on Twitter because a thing has happened that you don't understand.

[@anfearaerach]

Thank you Jane, for being considerate :) I think that's a good approach, I think that's what my parents did as well after I came out

[@PattisKarriereKarten]

Obviously you don’t understand basic biology. Please study what exactly Postmodernism is. Then you will understand what reality bending Butler does.

[@martybyrnemusic]

@@PattisKarriereKarten We're all biology experts here, didn't you know? Elon has now insisted that all Blue Tick Twitter Accounts prove their expertise in biology and pass an ELON MANDATED BIOLOGY TEST and produce an inexpensive CERTIFICATE before being allowed to scream abuse at trans people!

[@Gary-z9y]

That's an interesting way to characterise feminists objecting to, for example, convicted rapists in women's prisons. They are being hysterical, whereas you are, quite reasonably, outsourcing your politics to your children. And there are only people, by the way. There isn't an "alternative" to that.

[@abcdeshole]

Glad you understood something from her explanation of what a woman is, other than “nothing.”

[@AliceWatts-d3v]

Thank you Ash, fantastic to see such in-depth discussion around freedoms 🤩 I love Judith Butler & Ash was a perfect interviewer 🫶🏽

[@juliejoy4887]

It's not freedom, it's slavery. The first step, preparation. If you don't see it, I am very sorry.

[@aefun5761]

"Are we bringing vibes to a gunfight" :) Ash is well on form, brilliant.

[@UXDlozi]

i loved that lol

[@cadenza3210]

I'm gonna steal that.

[@uncoiledfish2561]

What does it mean?

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@uncoiledfish2561 "are we focused so much on feelings and ideas that we are unequipped to deal with the material consequences of transphobia?"

[@ayeright320]

@alioxinfree I thought they were all obsessed with "passing" and claiming no one notices they are there.... now its visibility. Nothing makes sense with you people 😂

[@jelef001]

Ash did amazing! I would have been too in awe to speak!

[@harveyyoung3423]

I started watching this interview live with my Mum and Dad at their house yesterday. We didn't get to far into it, not because it is complicated, with many moving parts and different levels, which it is, and which it has, but because it kicked off a long discussion after only a several minutes in. They have invited me back over today to watch some more, and i get a free home cooked dinner too. So very interesting, socially consequential, and with a high positive utility margin for me, so far.

[@Fredmayve]

Meanwhile Britain is doing genocide in Gaza

[@atee876]

a free dinner cooked by a loving parent is not to be sniffed at! lucky you! ;)

[@harveyyoung3423]

@@atee876 its true and I got two of 'em.

[@harveyyoung3423]

I still haven' got any further though the interview. But an odd thing is, my feminist colleague doing post grad stuff after finishing, went from theory to praxis, and gave a me a pile of her feminists texts to add to my home library between my epistemology and logic sections. They are fairly recent general texts and collections of essays mostly. The thing is, Judith Butler is not even in most of them, and is only a couple of quotes in the one that mentions bodies. I mean I'm all for privileging margins, but really?

[@harveyyoung3423]

So i read all i have of Judith Butler in books in five minutes. Thing is i went full Butlerian for some years from late 2000's though to early 2010s. All the EGS seminars and lectures some I watched several times, and many other lectures too. So right now I thought I'd have a go at performing Butler and then return to this interview and write about it after some praxis and experience. Just don't tell my friends on the right and my conservative colleagues. You can assess this already in comments on a Konstantin Kisin talk at Centre for Independent Study 2 weeks ago. For praxis reasons I choose to omit any reference to Butler, until I've drawn them in.

[@jakubdzejkob9989]

Perfect example that academics should not be taken at a face value... What a shitshow

[@aaxen7255]

What an utter bag of hot air

[@tracey6258]

I'd love Ash to interview Helen Joyce or better still a conversation between Butler and Joyce.

[@pinwheelart2825]

Yes, please! 😂

[@RomeoGrrl]

They don’t dare, it would result in Butler looking even more ridiculous than she is on her own.

[@Zarqaa_]

No not Joyce. I think Kathleen Stock is a better debater.

[@benp4877]

Yep

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

no? we do not debate with fascists.

[@michingmallecho5143]

You ask excellent questions. :)

[@GingerDrums]

Please invite some educated pushback, as the debate is not simply "Butler is correct on gender".

[@poochy]

Is the debate, then, if transgender people exist? Your opportunity for “educated pushback” was this comment section I guess

[@kimberleylouiseprance445]

And what is 'educated pushback'?

[@screenmonkey]

@@kimberleylouiseprance445 a counter point argument.

[@DavidBagshaw]

This is an interview, not a debate. We can listen, then decide for ourselves whether "Butler is correct".

[@MH-os8bs]

Also by becoming educated most pushback disappears

[@ZimbaZumba]

This is utter rubbish; she speaks but says nothing. Her words are nothing more than a meaningless religious chant for the faithful.

[@abcdeshole]

17:33 is where I stopped listening, with Butler actually claiming that we terves recommend that transwomen be sexually violated, after a good ten minutes of wind to the effect that woman is a category without boundaries, with everything and nothing inside it. This particular boomer is the platonic ideal of academic insanity. Her dishonesty about the opposing side is insulting and not worth listening to behind this point.

[@CatrinaDaimonLee]

one terf, two terves?

[@E_m1ly_6302]

Well by forcing them to go in the bathroom that matches their sex instead of their gender, you are literally forcing woman into men-toilets etc. Wich often leads to sexual violation. One thing for the terfs (not terves): What about trans men? They are now forced to be in womens spaces where they also dont want to be. Yes sexual assault is a lesser problem, but still you will whine. And why? Because its not about that.

[@expedition346]

@@E_m1ly_6302 “Well by forcing them to go in the bathroom that matches their sex instead of their gender”. strawman. apparently no one has thought of third gender bathrooms. “What about trans men?” no one talks about trans men because they dont pose sexual-violent threat to men; why does no one realize this?

[@jamakaya1332]

To post-modernists, everything is relative; there is no stable meaning. It's a free pass to mouth nonsense.

[@ayeright320]

Within a couple of minutes of starting this she makes a comment about "gender non conforming uncle" - that can only mean something if she had a stereotype in mind. Everything she talks about is with reference to stereotypes - that's all gender is a collection or old fashioned stereotypes.

[@milascave2]

How so? Is gender-nonconforming uncle a stereotype? I've never heard it.

[@Qq-xs1fz]

And trans ideology is strengthening those stereotypes.

[@ayeright320]

​@@milascave2What is he not conforming with?

[@urbansetter1]

​@@Qq-xs1fzfor sure. Tomboys are now trans. It has taken us back to the 60s

[@charlesdaubner1017]

@@milascave2 A gay uncle (an effeminate gay uncle;. not complicated at all; obvious)

[@charllandsberg]

Thank you! Both of you so much

[@jameswall6270]

Such utter rubbish.

[@japanesetoenglish]

The answer to the question about race seems very evasive. Clearly the question threatens the whole ontology of Butler's worldview, so it is set aside with a historical argument rather than a philosophical one.

[@farmpunk_dan]

It doesn’t, which is fairly obvious. Sounds like you just haven’t thought about this topic very much.

[@nizzie16]

Listening to Butler is always a treat, but when the interviewer is super excited and having a great time, it’s even better!

[@mikiafu]

You don't like your pope being challenged?

[@ayeright320]

You need to get out more

[@tommarsden4510]

It appears that the answer to any question she is asked no matter what can be summarised as "well its complicated". Then come the usual buy whay ifs and the straw manning of arguments that criticise ideas of gender whilst providing no real evidence to back up odeas of gender.. i appreciate the interviewer tried tonget judith to answer something in a clear way but each time was greeted with a diatribe of wishy washy meaningless answers.

[@sodaaccount]

Are you having a stroke?

[@poshdog123]

There is no right or left when it comes to what is a woman. Adult human female.

[@triangleunderstander]

Google "goatse" and click "images"

[@hengis73]

One of the best interviews with Judith I have seen. She is comfortable and able to explain the broader way of thinking, not have to defend or attack an arguement

[@umamicashflow1809]

She sneers that her opponents haven't done their homework about what they're criticizing but then demonstrates she has no idea about the substance of their criticisms. Unbecoming and sloppy.

[@Gary-z9y]

When have you ever seen her defend an argument in a situation where her nonsense is actually challenged?

[@HughEMC]

Judith is the epitome of sophistry

[@raincadeify]

@@umamicashflow1809 "She sneers"? Really? You might be projecting.

[@umamicashflow1809]

​@@raincadeify "Sneers" was used metaphorically to indicate the arrogance of the behavior that was the subject of my comment. Funny how you completely ignored its substance to nitpick its vocabulary. Very Butlerian.

[@birdbrainiac]

Ugh, this comment section is flooded with transphobes. You have a delete button - please use it.

[@Mushin367]

An absolute charlatan posing as an intellectual. Continental philosophy after Nietzsche had taken an incredible nosedive.

[@CosmicClaire99]

I'm glad to see that someone here can see through her!

[@sarah-janelambert8962]

Judith Butler is a veteran and well respected feminist. You not agreeing with her does not negate that.

[@jamakaya1332]

@@sarah-janelambert8962 Her framing of feminism in this is absurd.

[@alst4817]

@@sarah-janelambert8962 Putin is a veteran and well respected Russian politician. Must be a great guy, then...

[@sarah-janelambert8962]

@@jamakaya1332 It is my experience that the majority of single issue GC campaigners are not in fact feminists of any kind. I am a second wave feminist from the 1980s onwards and biological essentialism was never a part of our feminism.

[@barbarasumrok8321]

Quite a biased spin Butler puts on the gender ideology question. She front loads the entire discussion by framing it in terms of of right vs left. No, Judith. The question “What is a woman?” Can mo longer be answered with common sense. We NO longer share “common sense.” And how dare you speak for “feminism” at large?

[@paulmcgrath3341]

Pseudo-intellectuel claptrap.

[@paulsmart4672]

What you mean to say is you're offended by you can't explain why. That's okay, I'll do it for you: It's because you are obedient.

[@familiecole]

@@paulsmart4672There's nothing obedient about disagreement. You seem to agree with what you have just heard. That stinks to the core of obedience, passivity, ignorance and thoughtlessness.

[@TheOmnitom]

@@familiecole fact

[@markrussell3428]

@@paulsmart4672 Don't be so kind. There is ZERO intellectual value, this is as anti-intellectual as it gets.

[@markrussell3428]

@@paulsmart4672 Perhaps, but atleast he can string a sentence together.

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

With prison assault, I think most of us can agree that both Isla Bryson and White are horrible people. But than I think we cant live in a world free from risk. In the UK they go for a case by case assessment. Nevertheless, prison sexual assault is rampant. Primarily, not because of transgender people. Most of the perpetrators are cisgender men and most of the victims are men,too. In female prisons many of the perpetetrators are likely to be guards. It's a horrible state of affairs, all in all, how videspread this problem is. Most of the perpetrators are not transgender, however.

[@mozar937]

Butler is a master of denial in every possible direction. A woman runs away from truth

[@andreagibbs8557]

you maybe are an afraid person and you think there's a "truth" as if universal view could be

[@Kirsty-tb4qp]

Who's truth?

[@mozar937]

@@Kirsty-tb4qp exactly

[@antjackson4471]

Room full of sycophants. Utterly depressing. She’s good at defending Men’s rights though.

[@E_m1ly_6302]

No counterarguments, and its spelled "psychopath"

[@chelemab20]

@v_6302 What is spelt “psychopath”?? (And while we’re at it, it’s spelt “being” not “beeing” and “which”, not “wich”).

[@KitschKiss-pi8wp]

This woman's brain is so addled. Gender simply identifies a human being's sex. It has nothing to do with socially perceived activities. They have had to change the entire language used in order to make a case for quite frankly, nothing. Male and Female is all that is relevant

[@poochy]

Transgender people also exist. It’s not “addled” to consider how to respectfully interact with those humans 😰

[@poochy]

Transgender people also exist. It isn’t “addled” to consider how to respectfully interact with those humans 😰

[@ClitmasterDave]

Its great when you click newest on comments, i wonder when KZbin will do away with that like the dislike to give a false representation of popular public opinion.

[@E_m1ly_6302]

The newest comments also include people whos comments are later deleted because: Unwanted commercial content or spam Pornography or sexually explicit material Child abuse Hate speech or graphic violence Promotes terrorism Harassment or bullying Suicide or self injury Misinformation Legal issue Sure thats public opinion, but also extremist views, neutral people comment less, so get a bias. There is a extension for the browser called "Return KZbin Dislikes". I may not agree with you on things but i still want a objective and scientific view.

[@poochy]

KZbin should change to suit your preferences, but the meaning of the adjective transgender is a change you can’t make in your mind?

[@Swagkonge]

Was so glad I got to attend this, Judith was great and I got to ask them a Q at the end - thanks for hosting :-)

[@LimeyRedneck]

I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get to hear any audience questions 😔 Also, jealous! 😁

[@martybyrnemusic]

@alioxinfree Bit of a shame about the mic feedback in this, huh? I didn't want to moan about it, but come on, it's Judith Butler! Get the tech shit together!

[@ayeright320]

She talks absolute nonsense that would fall apart on the first challenge. No way she is taking questions

[@EliasJWhite]

@@ayeright320 They did though.

[@ayeright320]

​@@EliasJWhite No one was listening. She should be in jail for the poison she's spread.

[@CustomMap]

First minute was really insulting. It's a bad look for someone to not engage with anything from the other side and just hand wave it away as fearmongering.

[@farmpunk_dan]

So you don’t think the right are utilizing a fear of transness and gender nonconformity as a political tool?

[@MixalisBentzios]

When a person replies to a question with the phrase "it depends who's asking.." ok.. Dear they, reality is hard for you

[@E_m1ly_6302]

Words contain meaning and are filled with conotations. If a judge asks you if you like children, he could mean if you are pedophile, but asking the same from parents, is more like smalltalk about family, etc. Transphobes use that, as she clearly describes in the talk, that its used to discredit people that feel unomfortable giving a clear answere, because they dont want to exclude trans people. Others use that to try and better understand a topic. The goal is different, so the answere should be different to.

[@nocturnal03]

@@E_m1ly_6302 the answer is clear, and people avoid giving it because men aren't women so transwomen are men.

[@rocksparadox]

@@E_m1ly_6302 '''Words contain meaning and are filled with conotations. If a judge asks you if you like children, he could mean if you are pedophile, but asking the same from parents, is more like smalltalk about family, etc.'' (connotation, small talk) Meaning of words CAN depend on context, but when biological facts are denied, dismissed or twisted to please some subset of a minority it adds nothing to scientific OR 'philosophical'' understanding. Butler always uses any ''explanation'' towards projection of fear in others, stirs up ''phobias of phobia'' without addressing logical talking points , vagueness and meaninglessness are her weapons to steer away from exact terms, meaning and reason, which would expose her as a fraudulent quack/snakeoilsales(WO/THEY)man. ''use that to try and better understand a topic.'' ''Use that in order TO understand a topic'' , it's NEVER ''try and'' ,dismissed now.

[@undertheriverstone]

Bullshit

[@garyg1705]

listened to the whole thing but heard nothing persuasive or to convince me that anything she said was anything but waffle.

[@benp4877]

What in Jesus Christ’s name has this individual ever been saying? This might be the most insane thing I’ve ever heard. I tried so hard.

[@hawaii_hardware]

The protracted bloviation is strong with Judith

[@Bianca-pw5cn]

All oppression is connected, animals also deserve liberation 🐣

[@reaceness]

A squirrel lives in my garden rent-free.

[@chibu3212]

Making all oppression to be connected eliminates the significance between them.

[@sophiepooks2174]

@@chibu3212 What significance? That our capitalist imperialist or any authoritarian dictatorship depends on oppression as a feature of that system continuing?

[@incurableromantic4006]

But what *is* an animal?

[@Trollika_Devi]

@@incurableromantic4006 A creature that identifies as one is an animal. Oh wait ....

[@ruthhorowitz7625]

I came to hear garbage and I wasn't disappointed.

[@zoe_blackmore]

This such an excellent & accessible interview/conversation full of commonsense, intelligence and sprinkled with wonderful humour. Definately a delight.

[@ayeright320]

Commonsense?? What is a woman - waffle waffle waffle nonsense.... Still no answer....

[@AstarteDevi]

False equivalence: transphobia and anti semitism being linked…brutal

[@cowabungabonzai]

I wish more care would have been put into editing the audio of this lecture

[@yaznin2474]

Great interview. Thank you Ash for always asking the right questions. Never really heard Judith Butler speak before - only knew their name from all the tansphobia panic, great to see they were not snide or cruel to anyone and answered every question with intelligence. Look forward to reading their book.

[@Ftjxmmged]

The problem is that even when we are polite, transphobes will spin it any way they can unless peoppe take the time to watch videos like this, and most right wingers don't watch this channel unfortunately, because it'd pretty leftist

[@Grimeowldi]

I appreciate this interview. It was nice to listen to. Unscripted academics can be a little bit difficult to follow for someone that's never been in that community but I thought everyone did a fantastic job.

[@DavidBagshaw]

Well put, it turns out that the question 'what is a woman' does actually require some thought - like the question of the meaning of life, or what is a god, for example.

[@liam7342]

The biological essentialism argument only works if you stop studying biology before the age of 16 and then claim to be an expert based on that.

[@neovxr]

The Yin has a Yang in metaphysics. A Buddhist might say: You have lived in a female body a thousand times, and in a male body quite as often, and now you are still not getting it? At the same time I totally agree to Butler saying that people have the right to choose a style of living and presenting themselves.

[@RikPurde]

Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston would beg to differ, and I'm pretty sure they got beyond GCSE...

[@aky10011]

Didnt know female and male anatomy became the same after the age of 16. Thanks for info.

[@ethelmini]

@@RikPurde Ah the good ol' appeal to authority ruse - Dawkins said sex is binary. Whether or not that's true it does not make it congruent with gender. However, he did explain how transphobics would get that wrong with his meme hypothesis.

[@ethelmini]

@@aky10011 It also appears that you don't understand how variation is an essential component of evolution and social animals aren't constrained to sex specific gender roles.

[@MrCrazyvan25]

A woman is an adult human female

[@TigerPrawn_]

There are also other conceptions. That is yours ❤

[@fokkerfilms560]

"What are they taking?" Sports medals for a kick-off. 🤨

[@bigplanslittledrive4791]

I love how Judith asks for statistics for the risk of having trans women in women’s jail, but gets to just infer what would happen if a trans woman is in a man’s jail “we all know what would happen”. You showed your inconsistency but get to breeze right past it.

[@aidananstey9848]

They have protection wings for vulnerable or at risk inmates, men's prisons aren't safe for many men, do they all get to go to the women's prison too? Funny you NEVER hear of Transmen going into men's prisons. It is the most bizarre thing to have feminists advocating for men over actual women.

[@jamakaya1332]

She mouths contradictions continually and seems oblivious. No intellectual rigor to her thinking at all.

[@Crystalgate]

The risk of having trans women in women's prison is lower for women than the risk for trans men if they are in men's prison, but that's just because of numbers. With transwomen in women's prison, we have a low number of transwomen compared to women while with transmen at men's prison, we would have a high number of men compared to a low number of transmen. Basically, a rabbit is in less danger if there are 100 rabbits and 1 fox in a forest than if there are 1 rabbit and 100 foxes. That does not remove the danger however, it just means it's lower than it could have been.

[@Kirsty-tb4qp]

The difference is that there is statistics for sexual assault against Trans woman in mens prison.

[@sayakafermi5725]

Because we do all know what would happen, and your pretense of ignorance is utterly unconvincing.

[@lighting7508]

This was a very weak interview imo. If you want to get to the meat of the argument you have to ask the "right wing" questions. The way I see it, is if someone went into this interview gender critical they will come out gender critical after watching. only softball questions

[@metaldemort]

We already know quite well the "right wing questions", and their political purpose: to prevent any structured argumentation, to cut the grass under our feet before any real discussion start, to frame the conversation as badly as possible for the minorities and their rights. The same pro-fascists propagandists have been repeating them as loud as possible for years, and too many liberals are intoxicated by the same rhetoric. At least, we have here one hour without the usual right wing pollution. This may sure make some rightwingers and transphobes unhappy, but every one of our trans, intersex, non binary, non gender conforming existence make them unhappy anyway, making cisnormative people happy is out of reach for us.

[@sunnyday6465]

Yea, that sounds right.

[@RikPurde]

Undeniably true. And BTW, I agree with the quote marks around "right wing" - this is SO not a simple right/left issue.

[@ShakirahIbaad]

I agree. This interview was not robust enough and didn’t push back on Butler’s various assertions and opinions.

[@apriljoy1094]

I don’t think feminism, ie acknowledging women have needs and these should be fought for or protected, is right wing.

[@kattekongen]

Aren't your gender ideology legitimizing male voilence towards women in sports? And sexual voilence in prison? Or is that not relevant now that me changed the categories? What about social contagion? Ever wondered if spreading the gospel so intensely could affect kids that are very suggestionable?

[@dewilew2137]

They don’t give a shit about any of these things.

[@atlas_cass]

Isn't your Christianity legitimizing male violence towards women in arranged marriages? And sexual voilence in boys choirs from Priests? Or is that not relevant now that we changed the categories? What about social contagion? Ever wondered if spreading the gospel so intensely could affect kids that are very suggestionable?

[@happilyevernever4289]

​​@@atlas_cass 😂😂😂 I'm agnostic and even then you're misrepresenting that religion. 😂😂 Try not to be disingenuous next time.

[@fifidownunda]

Judith Butler's views on gender are part of the reason why we are in a mess as a society today.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

No they aren't. Gender nonconformity is always used as a scapegoat when society is a mess, but gender nonconformity has always been a part of human nature, it's nothing new. You're just falling for tired old propaganda.

[@marcelusdarcy]

I think you missed the point where she said that that's the narrative that is being pushed so that you blame other struggling people for low pay and shitty living conditions

[@chrisharvey7461]

lol because society's always been neat and tidy

[@Inquiringmind0]

@@chrisharvey7461 It wasn't neat or tidy but it was never this absurd with so much cultural degeneration.

[@expedition346]

@@Inquiringmind0 “cultural degeneration”. lmao are you lost

[@tommarsden4510]

You were asked whether you could define in good faith what a woman. After 12 minutes of nonsense your answer was... "why define a woman". Am so pleased Judith that you don't build bridges...

[@sillyguy951]

would love to know what your definition of a woman is without resorting to a circular definition, i.e relying on “adult female” to save you

[@dakinichick]

LOL, "adult human female" IS the definition of the word "woman". Nothing circular about it. Read a book - the dictionary.

[@fackarov9412]

@@sillyguy951 the words "adult" "human" "female" dont need "woman" to be defined so its not circular

[@impossibleagent3663]

Adult human female is not a circular definition for woman.

[@naskirchmayr5636]

@@dakinichick yeah that's a very simple and clear definition. but go read the definition of "female" on dictionary and say farewell to all the simplicity.

[@richarddoan9172]

JB can't distinguish between what a woman is and what some society thinks a woman should be doing. This is basic common sense.

[@tygerlillee]

Do whatever you want when you are adult. But keep your ideology out of children's malleable minds.

[@expedition346]

pot calling the kettle black.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

right back at yuou

[@lozzybozzy234]

A great discussion. I do feel the question about whether self ID applied to race wasn't satisfactorily answered though. The reality at the moment is that there are very few examples of people wishing to identify as a different race as compared to gender. But I imagine this was the case with gender in the past. How do we know the feeling of being a different race isn't currently being suppressed, and would we accept it in the future if the numbers identifying as a different race increased?

[@ayeright320]

You give that a go and see how it works out for you

[@yamiyugi2894]

They'll never accept that

[@poochy]

Does it have a basis in psychology? Is there a history there? We could entertain any number of wild hypotheticals, I’m just not sure it’s helpful or honest

[@kimberleylouiseprance445]

That is because there is a difference between race and gender, for race that is decided by the genetics of your ancestors and parents, for gender, all foetus start as male and it is inside the womb that hormones and androgens affect the foetus and dictate the physical birth sex and psychological birth gender of a child.

[@ayeright320]

​​​​@@kimberleylouiseprance445What nonsense?! Your fathers sperm either carried a Y chromosome or it didn't determining your sex at conception. It is in every cell in your body and can't be changed. There is no proof whatsoever that anyone has a gender identity of any sort. There is a far simpler explanation for sex that the comparatively woolly concept of race.

[@davewinterton4]

What a load of nonsense.

[@tabbymoonshine5986]

Go back to bed Dave

[@tomperu7246]

I dont know how you all manage to listen to this waffle.

[@SL-ws6gg]

Because we’re actual thinking people as opposed to hateful sheep.

[@gisellemagraibhaigh8342]

They aren't listening, they're really just absorbing like brainless sponges.

[@ninakamenic3679]

I totally agree, I really struggled through it because I love to hear different sides of any debate, but some stuff they say is so idiotic and they contradict themselves ALL THE TIME. It's painful for any intelligent brain.

[@SL-ws6gg]

@@ninakamenic3679 right, you’re so much more intelligent than Judith Butler.

[@vilmarazauskiene1172]

'Social masculinity is produced in good ways'. Ok, kind of agree. But what's patriarchy then?

[@RosaCanina1]

Just no.

[@ezequiel2527]

It’s interesting how many times reinforcement of societal gender norms was confirmed in this conversation.

[@philsanders9625]

It's accessible. And everyone needs a jumping off point that is grounded in their reality. I myself appreciated some simple anchors. Given at the end you reflect on it, but the fight isn't for ground zero on social identity. Its about taking ground back from ignorance. You don't teach math with algebra. You start with the numbers.

[@bobbsurname3140]

​@@philsanders9625Then why not start with biological reality rather than the seemingly idosyncratic social norms that have developed over the course of millenia? Then you might learn why those social norms exist in the first place, and thereby learn why it's idiotic to use them as a proxy for becoming the opposite sex.

[@amyaplomb666]

@@philsanders9625 and when talking about gender and sex stereotypes, you start with the immutable nature of sex. A transwoman is only a transwoman because they are a male sexed person.

[@DavidJosephism]

If Butler is in favour of unlimited migration then Butler is an unwitting supporter of the economic neoliberalism Butler affects to despise.

[@anantea]

Just from the start she is gaslighting us. "What is a woman" - the "stays in the kitchen" was never part of definition of what woman is. There was an expectation in some societies that presupposed certain role for a woman, but woman itself was still the same. Adult human female. You do not need to say how long hairs she happen to have, what she likes to do and what she has to do to make clear definition what that word means. In all languages around the world at least to my current knowledge. Feminist changed what role woman can choose for herself, but didn't changed the definition or meaning of the word woman.

[@cyclicozone2072]

Exactly

[@layaR3047]

💯

[@HalfB]

Succinctly and eloquently stated!! Her 20 minute bout of logorrhea when asked, ‘what is a woman’, was just an embarrassment of pseudo intellectual transcendental nonsensical word salad.

[@neurotrino3292]

Butler seems to not be able to comprehend it's imperative for women's rights to differentiate between "a woman can be everything" and "everything can be a woman". The former opens the world for women, the later puts us back in the box, because for any concept to be meaningful, there has to be a coherent definition behind it. If that definition isn't grounded in biology - such as a woman is a woman because of her biology as a woman no matter what she looks like, does, says, etc. then what is a woman? By Butler's words, if anyone can become a woman, then for women to be anything at all, you have to fall back on stereotypes or just erase the concept completely, because there is no inherent concept to step into. A trans woman is a trans woman by approximating the concept of womanhood, but they inherently can't enter biological womanhood. By this same token Butler is suggestion, what is the limitation to womanhood? Because any concept has a limitation for it to have a meaning. It's actually by far easier by her logical than any patriarchal one to limit women from the concept of womanhood through their behavior, looks, words, because if they no longer are defined as women by their biology then they can be excluded from it by any other concept.

[@ant47613]

Precisely

[@user-rv7ph1jl5y]

Except for as usual. Jb is pretending she doesn't understand the harm that is being done to women under the guise of this change and expansion.

[@ayeright320]

Yep she knows full well but it doesn't fit with her grift

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

i'm statistically more likely to be harmed than a cis woman. give me a break

[@ayeright320]

@@transsexual_computer_faery If a trans identifying person is in court in UK they are statistically much more likely to be the accused. Male on male violence isn't women's problem so solve.

[@poochy]

Which harm is that? Conceptual harm over the consideration of an adjective? Yeesh

[@Malky5279]

Get Helen Joyce or Kathleen Stock on to talk about this, not this absolute clownshow.

[@DavidBagshaw]

This is an interview with Judith Butler. Why would you invite someone else to talk about her when you can just invite Judith Butler.

[@Malky5279]

@@DavidBagshaw The subject in the headline is about more than Judith Butler. I think the channel would do well to talk and challenge the voices that disagree with he on that subject.

[@DavidBagshaw]

@@Malky5279 Fair comment on the headline.

[@PqV72MT4]

Total nonsense.

[@pinwheelart2825]

Noooooo. It is, " You are a woman and you can be however you want to be" not "You want to be a women, come on in." WtAF! 🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤪🤪🤪

[@TigerPrawn_]

They are so intelligent ❤

[@Verity_Truth666]

Really? Judith Butler? The woman makes no sense, people, she is not capable of a coherent sentence. Do you actually expect anyone to take you seriously?

[@eigentlichtoll02]

it sounded reasonable to me. but I'll watch it again..

[@jcimsn8464]

Yet all institutions are teaching queer theory

[@neurotrino3292]

Butler seems to not be able to comprehend it's imperative for women's rights to differentiate between "a woman can be everything" and "everything can be a woman". The former opens the world for women, the later puts us back in the box, because for any concept to be meaningful, there has to be a coherent definition behind it. If that definition isn't grounded in biology - such as a woman is a woman because of her biology as a woman no matter what she looks like, does, says, etc. then what is a woman? By Butler's words, if anyone can become a woman, then for women to be anything at all, you have to fall back on stereotypes or just erase the concept completely, because there is no inherent concept to step into. A trans woman is a trans woman by approximating the concept of womanhood, but they inherently can't enter biological womanhood. By this same token Butler is suggestion, what is the limitation to womanhood? Because any concept has a limitation for it to have a meaning. It's actually by far easier by her logical than any patriarchal one to limit women from the concept of womanhood through their behavior, looks, words, because if they no longer are defined as women by their biology then they can be excluded from it by any other concept.

[@poochy]

This is a silly way to interact with the concept that trans women exist. The adjective transgender means the thing it means. It has absolutely zero effect on you. Like, maybe theoretically. Get over it

[@askanexpertpreviews3490]

This has got to be the most intelligent thing I've ever seen in KZbin comments loool my faith in humanity is restored

[@AndreAngelantoni]

This is silly sophistry. A woman is an adult human female.

[@VixenArt3]

Yeah and how is that exclusive to cis women? It's not. XY Intersex women and XY trans women can and do undergo female puberty and development through HRT into adult females.

[@ayeright320]

​@@VixenArt3DSDs are sex specific and nothing to do with gender or "trans identities"

[@Tawny593]

​@@VixenArt3Men don't go thru female puberty no matter how much estrogen they take.

[@Tawny593]

​@@VixenArt3No, they don't go thru f*m*Le puberty.

[@naomieyles210]

Butler was correct to identify context being key to understand what is being asked, eg. If Rishi asks Keir, that's quite different to a Kindergarten teacher asking one of their students, and different again from an international student using their grammar checker. Rishi has subtext, so the useful question is to ask, what is the subtext? Political questions are usually complicated, and intentionally so.

[@barbarasumrok8321]

Butler is so condescending.

[@lucienmott9648]

In today's society there are very few expections of how a boy or girl should act or represent their gender.

[@expedition346]

what is “expection”?

[@Tawny593]

​@@expedition346 A typo.

[@Narapoia1]

Her point around using individual cases (e.g. rape by transgender women in prison) and applying it to the broader group is likely correct for some of those opposed to the practice or transphobes more broadly - but it does not address the subjugation of the rights of females to female only spaces. It's a symptom of it, so its not just being used as an excuse for bigotry, half of the population are being asked to give up rights that were hard won and previously unquestioned. Some females might be happy to give up those rights, others are not and it seems insufficient to dismiss their position as simple bigotry.

[@user-rv7ph1jl5y]

Agreed..

[@Ruyolr]

Absolutely agree.

[@clarkbowler157]

What exact spaces are we discussing? Should we generate more exclusion or perhaps develop a new category as opposed to expanding the social categories already present? Should we develop social categories merely based on traits recognized as merely physical? I am not disagreeing, however I am not exactly sure what spaces are we talking about. Besides. If we did chose to develop and implement social stratification based merely in physical characteristics wouldn't it also open doors to using other similar characteristics such as race or hair color in order to develop new kinds of stratification?

[@VixenArt3]

You do realize that trans women have been using female only spaces for decades and decades without issues? Also, your argument would exclude intersex women with XY because they too are biologically male. PS I love how you people never even consider trans men in all these conversations. If it was all about biological sex, then trans men and intersex XX men would / should feel very uncomfortable and unsafe in men's spaces, but they don't. Interesting.

[@calumlambert]

@@clarkbowler157 he doesn't know so there is no point asking him. I've called him on a few of his comments now. He basically speaking endlessly in this ideological drivel while accusing others of doing it.

[@ddk567t]

I am not right wing. I have always been a leftist. But I find this type of discussion of identity worse than frivolous and actually antithetical to what leftism is supposed to be about, i.e., improving the material quality of life for working people.

[@samkennedy5554]

👏👏

[@jessicahansen1288]

How is gender liberation antithetical to improving the material conditions of the working class? Are workers oppressed by the transgenders? This is how the right intends to divide us. You are falling into their trap.

[@benfisher1376]

I agree. I think that type of left is in the past now. It's all about outrage, identity and "equity" at all costs, even if it makes no sense.

[@tabbymoonshine5986]

Isn't leftism meant to stand up for the underdog? To raise the lives of the disengaged and disenfranchised. Trans people are currently at the bottom of the culture war heap along with refugees and it has REAL effects on their lives and mental health. It doesn't effect YOU and that's fine. I love that for you. Sadly it effects alot of people, it's not indulgent to speak about real harm

[@alice1374]

That's the thing though, it goes on far more. I mean, take, America for instance right now, if a certain someone wins in november there it's likely hormone replacement therapy (HRT) for all women will be under attack by the companies because they've been asked to stop giving it out even making it altogether. Some dystopian future if you ask me. What about those women that need help in menopause with hormones..? And other things generally. the "trans debate" or "trans issue" goes on far more than just trans people generally.

[@DAMO1708]

Here’s a thought, an “ethical” man does not enter a womens changing room and reveal himself knowing he’s scaring or making uncomfortable everyone inside so he can feel better about himself!!

[@ginaweith9475]

He knows why he does it… it gratifies him.

[@sodaaccount]

And that relates to trans people exactly how?

[@expedition346]

@@sodaaccount it doesnt really relate to trans people, but it relates to self ID

[@sodaaccount]

@@expedition346 No it doesn’t. Its the sane scarecrow always used by the right/conservatives. It doesn’t govern bathroom usage and those countries/states that have it didn’t report any abuse of the law. Why would any man change their identity to be ridiculed by smooth brains just to do what he could do anyway, entering a restroom hes not supposed to be in? This fear is not based in reality…

[@sodaaccount]

@@expedition346 KZbin censored my reply. If you sort by newest it will be there…

[@Charrison9918]

13:42 one is not assigned a sex at birth.

[@Shalanaya]

Yes they literally are, definition of sex is purely arbitrary, changing from country to country throughout the history, remember sex has been proven to be a spectrum and diversity with high end peaks on both sides. Trans women were born women, their innate gender identity developed during the 2nd trimester is what defines their sex just as much.

[@Charrison9918]

@@Shalanayasex is either female or male. No spectrum. How someone feels is subjective and sex is objective thus sex is observed at birth.

[@sodaaccount]

@@Charrison9918they observe genitalia at birth, not sex…

[@Charrison9918]

@@sodaaccount​​⁠they are typically related unless intersex .

[@expedition346]

​@@Shalanaya you realize that every definition is arbitrary right?

[@joshuamorrison8332]

It is a judo move to title this "There is a war on gender" when you are talking about gender ideas that have never enjoyed a majority consensus.

[@jeremyhall2727]

I think the war on gender is silly. Because what someone calls themselves isn't going to change everyone lives. How is it going to hate me? No different if some person believes or knows they're a tiger. How is this person believing that going to hurt me? The war on gender isn't real. It's just an excuse for bigotry.

[@cactus2260]

There was a war on civil rights activists and they obly ever had 30% approval rate. We are guided by truth, not populism

[@andymurray3620]

57 mins of question ducking & diving in every way, shape & form to avoid providing a single cohesive answer.

[@Zarqaa_]

I watched this video with an open mind but after finishing this one hour interview, I could say that Butler is “The Queen of Word Salad”. Loads of word salad when the answer can be said in three sentences max. Let alone that most of her answers are descriptive instead of fully addressing the main question. Also you can tell that she doesn’t know what the position of her opponents are. Take for example that Gender Critics actually ENDORSE ‘Gender nonconforming’ and many of them are. Butler is the prophet of poststructuralism, which is illogical, incoherent, and in practice very anti-science. She is also immersed in a world of conjuring enemies where things are purely black and white. It closes the door for any possible self-criticism and self-reflection within this paranoiac movement she wants to create.

[@maystrehmel4615]

I came in here with an open mind, too- well, as open as I can allow lest my brains fall out. That one hour is enough to be fully convinced that Gender Theory/Ideology has no leg to stand on. I can watch debates from the Gender Critics for hours and be enriched with their coherence and rationality. I‘ve always wondered why she has not been on a debate, now I know why. She knows she‘s a fraud.

[@moonsy-9733]

We were more progressive by the late 90s than we are today, transgender ideology is regressive and confining with it's labels. Watching this was tough.

[@user-rv7ph1jl5y]

Jb needs to step off.. She created a ton of these problems that are very much ripping apart families. Why are we deferring to Them?

[@shmeet]

_____________She never answered what a woman is.

[@stephanieejoyce]

Philosophy isn’t about answers it’s about questions

[@mewho6199]

She wasn't really asked that question. The question was, "What do people mean when they ask that question?" So basically, they avoided having to define "woman."

[@shmeet]

@@mewho6199 Same thing, same answer. Q. What is a woman? A. adult human female Q. "What do people mean when they ask that question?" A. They're asking if you think a woman is an adult human female. Either/or, they end up at the same thing. Her answer should have been 'They're asking if you think a woman is an adult human female."

[@barbarasumrok8321]

She doesn’t know.

[@shmeet]

@@barbarasumrok8321 _______________Of course she does. Everyone knows.

[@markhla427]

Good questions Ash, but i would like to have probed into the distinction between what someone "is" amd what someone "does". I think this is fundamental in this discussion, and without clarification it causes a circular argument e.g. "Are you a woman?" This is an 'is' question for some and a 'does' question for others.

[@LucianWheelerLPW]

I think one of the points made in Judith's book, Gender Trouble, is that someone's gender is the result of repeated gendered acts (hair, clothes, speech etc). So in a way it equates what people are and what they do. A bit of a chicken and egg question

[@whoisthispianist194]

She’s as disturbed as she is verbose.

[@markrussell3428]

Ever notice how Butler uses western example to highlight what needs to change. Maybe she should go to Saudi Arabia and suggest Muslim need to go through a change and come out the other side.

[@poochy]

Well that is where she lives

[@markrussell3428]

@@poochy Sadly true. PLEASE tell me if you have ever heard her say anything about the trans-youth cult. This whole mess is built on the gender confusion she helped create. I would like to vote her off the island and as I said, Saudi Arabia as well as Iran, Russia and China need more Butler. She also aligns very nicely to their autocratic mindsets which are closer to the socialist - Marxist than a capitalist world view. She would also be held accountable for the devastation of her views.

[@USASPORTSCARDS]

This is the part of Novara I’m not left enough for

[@Daniel-mo1uy]

Novara is not left enough for you on this issue.

[@climaksy1659]

Identity politics are the very definition of Moderate/Centrist. You are not alone brothers and sisters.

[@glasp-q8n]

@@climaksy1659 What's the point of a Left that doesn't challenge socially constructed identities?

[@dancelittlesquire]

Ya chatting slop. Social liberalism and economic liberalism are not inseparable. In fact, social liberalism and leftist politics can be very happy bedfellows.

[@daydreamer83]

@@climaksy1659 Clip kicks off with Butler critiquing neoliberal and its multifarious social impacts -all fine. Then you remember they donated to Cop-ala Harris in the 2020 primary. Wendy Brown is definitely the 'based' one in that partnership.

[@theotherzaphriel488]

Judith Butler has absolutely perfected never answering the question asked.

[@zacharybosley1935]

At a certain point, one has to wonder if you're even listening. Judith is asked layered questions, which require layered responses. Having an attention span that lasts longer than three sentences really helps to parse the language she's using here.

[@theotherzaphriel488]

Oh I understand what she's saying, it's just there's no substance to the answer.

[@zacharybosley1935]

​@@theotherzaphriel488where is the lack of substance in the idea that cultural expectations of gender are different from the biological expectations of sex?

[@theotherzaphriel488]

@@zacharybosley1935 mainly the follow through of thought. The cultural expectations of the sexes are determined by their biological contribution to the family unit and based on average physical strength. I don't see where she mentioned that they're born of actual limitations and strengths and although one size doesn't fit all, it has served a historical importance in a protection of the biological imperative.

[@zacharybosley1935]

that's because the "actual differences" don't meaningfully contribute to how those expectations are sculpted in the present day, boss. You gotta recognize that the norms of the hunter-gatherers have less than zero utility to a fully industrialized culture. Historical precedent is just as illogical as any appeal to tradition, especially when we have been re-evaluating those expectations since before first-wave feminism. Acknowledging biological differences does not meaningfully justify the status quo.

[@mattwa33186]

I tried. I really tried.

[@antonyshadowbanned]

😅😂

[@noklarok]

i lasted 10 seconds

[@atlas_cass]

@@noklarok Can't handle the free marketplace of ideas?

[@moe_factz]

Exhibit A of why intersectionality was doomed from the beginning.

[@climaksy1659]

"I wouldn't say i buy this, lets just say i'm window shopping, and right now theres a half price sale on weird."

[@wingtipzzz]

You are polite. I'm with you.

[@jeremyhall2727]

🤨.. ok

[@expedition346]

irrelevant

[@rocksparadox]

@@expedition346 Yamamaz irrelevant. ;)

[@Oatsweather]

Always sort comments by newest. People are done with trans ideology. Adult human female!

[@DavidBagshaw]

Are you trying to say something? There is no verb in your second, broken sentence.

[@badgermeat]

Male and female is one of the few binarys we have... Judith has helped create an ideology that has synergised with narcissism, individualism, misogyny, homophobia and patriarchy. While we are enmeshed within this poisonous, polarised debate, the poor go on being poor, the privileged middle classes comment on Novara Media :)

[@expedition346]

“patriarchy” “male and female”….its either both or none….patriarchy cant be defeated until gender is abolished

[@badgermeat]

@@expedition346 Sorry to disappoint you but Nature doesn't work that way. Men remain men no matter how they 'feel'

[@naomieyles210]

A binary is generally an oversimplification. Statistically, a clean binary is achieved by excluding ambiguous data from the set. Butler was talking about including the ambiguous data and dealing with the 1% or 0.1% of complex cases.

[@badgermeat]

@@naomieyles210 But society doesn't organise around categories based on 1%, hence we have 'male' and 'female'. The 1% you refer to are cases of intersex or other deviations from the general norm. Trans identified females are still biological men, hence they have the same offending patterns of biological men, because they remain biological men regardless of how female they 'feel'.

[@naomieyles210]

@@badgermeat as a society, we do meet the needs of various kinds of 1%, but of course we fail at that, too. Failure is not a good option. Wheel chair ramps are a good example, cochlear implants another, guide dogs is another. The 1% that I'm talking about, lumps various intersex and transgender people together. Those groups, while varied, have more in common with each other than with typical characteristics of the 49% of the population that fits male biological norms. That 1% are victims of violent assault at 2.5 to 4.5 times the rates of the general population.

[@peakexperience]

Sorry I am with Kathleen Stock on this one as I suspect are most reasonable people. This person's opaque and barmy ideas have caused considerable damage to the trans debate. Novara Media are showing themselves to be completely out of touch here which is a shame as they are pretty good on other topics.

[@Celestina0]

I have no idea how you got 'toxic and divisive identity politics' from this chilled out talk lol

[@yaznin2474]

Which part did you find to be toxic? Genuinely interested because I listened and thought Judith was considerate and intelligent. Many of the discussions I hear on this subject (all sides) are often cruel, mockery with debate that doesn't go further than meaningless slogans. Would genuinely consider your take if I misheard something?

[@glasp-q8n]

What 'most people' think is precisely how marginalised groups become stuck in that space of marginalisation. It's not a byword for 'truth'. However, 'most people' might surprise you, and agree with Judith Butler, against Kathleen Stock, that rather than focusing on specific cases of policy implementation (such as where to imprison a trans-woman convicted of rape), which is not Butler's job, we should be ensuring that no one, whoever or whatever they are, is subjected to a criminal justice system that leaves them vulnerable to violence or abuse in custody. It's not rocket science. And it's obviously right, and ethical.

[@jgmediting7770]

@@yaznin2474I highly doubt they watched the interview.

[@daydreamer83]

I am 'Butler-critical', though they'd say, as both a radical feminist and a Hegelian etc etc that's part of the point. But Kathleen Stock has allied herself with some deeply noxious elements - 'strange bedfellows' almost doesn't do it justice. It's akin to Foucault etc supporting the theocratic Ayatollah's party in the Iranian Revolution because they thought it would open up a 'new space' for rights once the corrupt US backed Shah had been deposed: except Stock's support has more valence insofar as she potentially launders the reputations of reactionaries amongst otherwise left-leaning people, rather than just being a fairly 'performative' gesture in Foucault's case...

[@BenildeMoreno]

Why are you missing the only and correct definition of woman and womanhood which is SCIENTIFIC because it is based on BIOLOGY? The definition of Woman DOES NOT refer to any philosophy, religion, political party, or even era, or any policy of "inclusion" or gender ideology. It's simple, a woman is the adult female of a human being, whose body is designed by her XX chromosomes for it to be capable of getting pregnant and whose GENDER IDENTITY IS embossed on her hypophysis after getting hormonal feedback from her GENITALS. From then on, you can begin talking about a social construction based on the human ability to adapt to the environment based on variables such as era, culture, etc. YOU CANNOT MAKE UP ANY DEFINITION OF WOMAN BASED ON WHATEVER YOU ASSUME ARE SUCH IMPOSED VARIABLES THAT MAY CHANGE EVEN GEOGRAPHICALLY.

[@Mike_Sunshine]

Bro, "woman" is a word. A made up word. A word that we can add extra context to.

[@expedition346]

there is no such thing as a “correct” definition…eg is the definition of the SI meter “correct”? is the definition of “living” “correct”? many get this wrong

[@swagmasterdoritos]

The definition of a term is stance dependent, constructed through social usage, not discovered objectively. Some terms refer to social constructs, others refer to merely biological constructs; what's so untenable about reorienting a term previously used towards a biological construct towards a social construct when we still have terms (male/female) to refer to said biological construct?

[@naomieyles210]

I think you might benefit from looking up the term *biological essentialism*.

[@CosmicClaire99]

There is more to human personality than a chromosome. There are archetypes and patterns of perceptual recognition for a start.

[@WhiteyInJapan]

I came to hear the "other" side with an open mind, but she said nothing of substance. She brushed of any semi-difficult question with a flurry of whataboutisms and evasions

[@cactus2260]

Its called nuance discussion. Where things arent black and white

[@WhiteyInJapan]

@@cactus2260 Word salad disguised as empathy is not nuance.

[@bigplanslittledrive4791]

@@cactus2260the kind of nuance where Judith insists on data before even discussing the potential threat of trans in women’s prisons, but just get to infer “we know what would happen to them” if trans women are in man’s prison

[@cactus2260]

@@bigplanslittledrive4791 because there is data on what happens when trans women are allowed on women's bathrooms and when they're forced into mens bathrooms. And they do show that it's more dangerous to go to the men's bathroom

[@maystrehmel4615]

@@cactus2260the solution to that, really, is to create safe spaces for Trans, too, suited for their needs. Put them in their own category because they ARE their own category. Yes, they deserve rights, too, but that doesn’t give them the right to take anyone else‘s away, like Women’s‘.

[@anfearaerach]

As a trans man, I was never a lesbian! I was always interested in men, and especially gay men! Did find it kind of sad that the conversation almost only allowed the discussion of trans women, their hypervisibility and our invisibility are the same side of the shite coin

[@crzyprplmnky]

Policing of women's bodies and identity and invisibility of men's struggles absolutely two sides of the same coin 😢

[@Miriam-nb9sh]

Everything has pros and cons. You also get less hate on the other hand.

[@anfearaerach]

@@Miriam-nb9sh less hate???????? Would you be well????

[@alice1374]

@@anfearaerach Miriam doesn't understand that side of the debate, much less the trans women/woman side of the debate. To fully understand it, you need to know both sides there (trans men and women)

[@jeremyhall2727]

😂 so you're a bigot then

[@hunterseufert8066]

Why can't I find her debating anyone? Such a coward.

[@sodaaccount]

Human rights are not up for debate. And it makes no sense to discuss a topic with someone that doesn’t understand even the basics.

[@hunterseufert8066]

@@sodaaccount where do you get your human rights from?

[@sodaaccount]

@@hunterseufert8066 Why am I not surprised you dont understand how human rights work... Everyone gets them from birth, simply by being born a homo sapiens sapiens. They can not be "granted", dont need to be earned, they are inalienable rights.

[@DumpsterFlower]

Iconic moment: "Ash Sarkar: As you say in your book, no one person or class can own a gender category... Judith Butler: [interrupting] Well Beyoncé does" Who'd have thought Judith Butler would out-sass Ash!

[@Janemas]

but categories are invented as it develops visually.

[@hemlyns9916]

No baby is "assigned" a sex at birth. It is observed and recorded.

[@CurtainRod]

What is observed? Like what physically are you observing.

[@hemlyns9916]

If that's too hard to understand, explain on the basis of what sex may "be assigned at birth."

[@CurtainRod]

@@hemlyns9916 Sex is assigned based on external genital morphology. Other sex attributes such as chromosomes, internal genital morphology and future hormonal profile are inferred.

[@hemlyns9916]

@@CurtainRod It is not "assigned," for there is no choice in the matter, and sex never changes.

[@CurtainRod]

@@hemlyns9916 I mean, there is a choice in the matter. We can decide whether we want to simply consider these attributes that are separately observable separately rather than consider them within a male/female binary. But "assign" is also a term in biology to mean classification, e.g. we "assign" is a term sometimes used for species like in the article title "Pragmatic Assignment of Species Groups Based on Primary Species Hypotheses". I mean if sex is physical, and physical things can change, I don't see how sex never changes.