NT Wright & Douglas Murray: Graceless woke religion vs Christian forgiveness

NT Wright & Douglas Murray talk about the problem of unforgiving woke ideologies vs the forgiveness found in Christianity.
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[@leytonorientdeutscher9540]

What wonderful grounding of forgiveness in the cross of Christ by NT Wright. Let's never tire or be ashamed of bringing it all back to Jesus

[@sentientflower7891]

Those who committed the crimes cannot demand forgiveness.

[@leytonorientdeutscher9540]

@@sentientflower7891 It can be commanded though, on the basis of the far greater forgiveness we've received in Christ. Such is the wonderful grace of God, but this bigger picture of grace through the cross is essential.

[@sentientflower7891]

@@leytonorientdeutscher9540 Jesus Christ doesn't exist. But your crimes are real.

[@thucydides7849]

@@leytonorientdeutscher9540 so a serial rapist can strut around like "im forgiven, my past offenses have been erased by jesus". the lack of personal responsibility it would take to think someone else can forgive you for someone else, is asinine in every sense of the word

[@leytonorientdeutscher9540]

@@thucydides7849 it's about right-standing with God. Turning away from your evil and putting your trust in Christ allows you to stand before God as a forgiven sinner. Whether you're a serial rapist or not, everyone is a sinner and needs forgiveness. Moreover, a serial rapist wouldn't be strutting around. They'd be imprisoned, most probably for a very long time. Being forgiven by God doesn't mean that people get to avoid the demands of their country's legal system.

[@simonskinner1450]

To forgive without the offender begging forgiveness and repenting from their past thinking. To reconcile trust without repentance is appeasement and enabling evil.

[@mr.c2485]

Very true. Without those things how does one know that they’ve truly forgiven? Saying the words doesn’t make it so. And…wouldn’t the words “I forgive you” be self serving and judge mental?

[@Clodaghbob]

The man who didn't wait for repentance but instead said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" was hardly appeasing and enabling evil.

[@michaelhenry1763]

Peace in our time

[@michaelhenry1763]

@@Clodaghbob Jesus did not say that originally . His original is in Mark Yes, it did. Because Romans kept crucifying people

[@Clodaghbob]

Michael Henry The first gospel is believed to be Mark's. That doesn't necessarily make the others false or mean that there weren't earlier texts. In any event, forgiving your enemies was hugely important to the earliest Christians. "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses" - _Mark_ _11.25_

[@kamiltrzebiatowski9331]

There's a slight difficulty with the phrase itself: to forgive your enemy is to not treat them as enemy. Nonetheless, it IS the most important thing to do. Like Douglas, I'm an atheist but I also believe that the idea of forgiveness is revolutionary. If it was taken on more or at least attempted, I'd believe there'd be more Christians in the world; like Jordan Peterson, I also think that we act out what we believe to be true. The role model I've had my entire life is Anne Shirley (of Anne of Green Gables by LM Montgomery). The books are steeped in forgiveness and I've become since I was 10 convinced that this is the greatest value to have. In Anne of Windy Poplars there is a character Katherine Brooke, a broken, bitter, teacher whose early life had been as difficult as Anne's had been. Anne receives continual derision and sour comments for 2 years from her. And yet Anne in her quest to find kindred spirits meets those bitter, often envious, remarks with patience, love and: forgiveness, eventually bringing about friendship with Katherine. To me, this is the point of living. Instead of focusing on others' faults and 'wrongs', seeing their hurt and suffering and alleviating it with love, kindness and forgiveness. Little wonder, of course: LM Montgomery was a minister's wife, herself quite religious. "Kindred spirits are not so scarce as I used to think. It's splendid to find there are so many of them in the world." This citation hangs in my living room wall. When I, as a fallible human being, something fall into being less charitable to others, I read it and remind myself to strive to be good and forgive. Being forgiving is in fact unbelievably difficult. Being forgiving requires huge strength and being vulnerable. People who are truly forgiving will always have my utmost admiration and will always inspire me to be good and strive for better when I fall short.

[@lnl3237]

We must be kindred spirits, Kamil. Read the whole series. Anne is indeed a character to emulate. She knew her flaws and fought valiantly to overcome them.

[@michaelhenry1763]

Really amazing post.

[@kamiltrzebiatowski9331]

@@lnl3237 Thank you Lorraine! It does sound like we're kindred spirits! Yes. I read all the books myself too. They've been a major influence on my life, and the character transcends The pages. The values espoused are the same values that I have (or is it the other way around?) : forgiveness, kindness, love and imagination. I might be non religious in the sense that I don't sense the presence of a deity, but I do believe in those virtues. This year, I'm writing a book about Anne as my role model, looking at the first 4 books in the series. Whether I'll ever dare to publish it is another matter. And who says that a female literary character cannot be a man's role model? We're all people after all.

[@kamiltrzebiatowski9331]

@@michaelhenry1763 Thank you, Michael.

[@lnl3237]

@@kamiltrzebiatowski9331 Wasn't it Albert Einstein who said "Imagination is more important than knowledge?" Anne refused to let her pitiful circumstances define her. She had such dignity, was fiercely loyal, and a spirit that was indomitable. I tear up just thinking of Matthew making sure Anne had that dress with "puffy sleeves." You write that book for yourself, and fate will take care of the rest. You might not have a sense of the deity, but the existence of someone like you, who is as sensitive and joyful as Anne, herself, assures me that a loving Creator set this world in motion.

[@JamesKimSynergize]

I think by 'Pharisaism' Professor Wright meant the sort of self-righteousness that comes with an 'us and them' mentality.

[@sentientflower7891]

The Pharisee terminology is precisely Us vs. Them terminology.

[@willcrozier9153]

Reading these comments it’s so good to see that there are people on both sides of the woke/not a fan of woke side of things.

[@simonroper4713]

I deeply treasure Douglas Murray.

[@bertybertface1914]

Nick has almost convinced me that his faith is the answer. So much conviction, and he is so very well spoken. Alas, I am as Gay as a Gay thing and the two just don't combine very well. A little like Chalk and Cheese, Oil and Water, Religion and common sense. Luckily i was born with a moral compass, and a solid understanding of wrong and "wright" and did not require a hand book to use it. I will always listen however.5

[@radscorpion8]

yeah its a bit of a false dichotomy, not that he is portraying it that way. Like either you accept 'woke' ideologies, or you become religious? That is a little silly. You can easily be non-religious and non-woke. The morality of non-religious people tends to be much more durable, because you don't get it from a bible of questionable sources, authenticity and even basic logic (did God really raise a whole city from the dead? Did he really flood the world if there is no evidence? Why would he torture his son to forgive other people, the most insane act of all time?) Non-religious people ground their morality in common appeals to emotions we all share, and fundamental logical arguments on why we should care about people equally. With religion you have to assume a holy book is correct. In the modern age...a lot of people are increasingly not being convinced by those kinds of flimsy theological positions. Which is why there is such a decline in religiosity in the first place. Appealing to it as a solution seems to be backwards; like you're appealing to a solution that has clearly demonstrated that its not working and that people are abandoning in droves. And then there is the gay conversion therapy lol. Yes, you are right not to follow them

[@catherinesummers5057]

I bet you would love John’s Gospel… He was the youngest of the disciples and his account of the time he spent with Jesus is the most personal one.

[@borderlands6606]

@Jim Merrilees In the classical world very few people gained a mention except emperors and philosophers. The idea that a crucified criminal would be committed to written record by anyone except his followers, is absurd. Within a single generation his disciples preached Jesus's words and followers accrued exponentially. Biblical research is founded on aspects like cross textuality and external chronology. You can debate details of Jesus's life and certainly his divinity, but his existence fulfils all the criteria of a classical "nobody" without going full Dan Brown on the subject.

[@borderlands6606]

@Berty Bertface, polemical atheists often reveal that same sex attraction underpins their views on the (non)existence of God. In one way this is understandable, but it doesn't submit to logical scrutiny. People are born with numerous non-mainstream aspects to their lives, but those do not deny the existence of a deity.

[@borderlands6606]

@Jim Merrilees It sounds like you're assuming materialism to assert materialism, and materialism = "science". On that basis any action that transgresses an exhaustively material universe must be bogus. I don't feel in the least brainwashed, in fact for decades I had no interest in metaphysical or ontological beliefs. What changed was listening to the poverty of atheist apologetics. If you are a biological robot with epiphenomenal consciousness in a determinist universe (the position of atheist materialists), both theist and atheist positions are illusions based on a biological abstraction. Where are the bragging rights in biological determinism? The "jury" isn't out on the existence of Jesus, unless your judgement is based on revisionist everything-you-think-is-wrong tomes from the remaindered book shelves. Nearly all serious academics agree that Jesus fulfils the criteria of a historical person, and the forensics of this are worth your study.

[@js-sp9bz]

It's so wonderful to see people forgiving people in positions of power and privilege who don't think they've done anything wrong and have no plans to change 🙄

[@Clodaghbob]

Forgiving people doesn't mean that they're not held to account. A mother can forgive her son's killer. That doesn't mean he won't go to prison when caught and convicted. It _does_ mean that the mother is not consumed by hatred for the rest of her life. It could lead to repentance on the part of the killer later on.

[@js-sp9bz]

@@Clodaghbob I agree that's amazing she could do that. But using that to call out people who won't just let powerful men off the hook for their abuses is pretty disturbing.

[@Clodaghbob]

j s Is that what they're doing? I think they're showing that purely condemning people achieves little (the offenders simply become more entrenched) but a spirit of forgiveness gives the offenders an opportunity to change. And it ripples out into the wider communities and allows them to come together where previously they may have been fighting each other. If the peace process in Northern Ireland had depended on paramilitaries from both sides repenting, we'd still be waiting! It wasn't perfect but it was sufficient that enough people managed to forgive, draw a line in the sand, and move on. Who knows if the killers repented but the bullets stopped flying and the bombs stopped exploding, and the next generation had a chance of a peaceful future.

[@jacobzosangliana8443]

Great stuff

[@batman5224]

I really admire NT Wright as a theologian. He comes across as very nuanced and balanced in his thinking, which is why he tends to draw criticism from many fundamentalist evangelicals. Although I disagree with him in some areas, it’s very obvious that he attempts to extract truth from scripture, while many fundamentalists just go by what they’ve always been taught.

[@JamesKimSynergize]

Not just fundamentalists but also postmodern, liberal theologians.

[@balaamsass5540]

@@JamesKimSynergize @Joseph Logsdon That's kind of an unfair characterization of Mr. Wright's critics. While I obviously agree with him here in spirit, the wokeists are just practicing and extending the "works-based" theology that he espouses when he cuts the legs out from under the Apostle Paul's theology. The New Perspective is every bit the abomination that Critical Theory is. It's not nuance to say that Paul is not saying what it is obvious he is saying (that we are justified by faith, for example). It becomes a sort of intellectual Gnosticism. The idea that plebes can't understand the scripture is a Roman Catholic one that is contrary to the spirit of the Protestant Reformation.

[@JamesKimSynergize]

@@balaamsass5540 Having studied NPPs (plural) in seminary and postgrad with NT Wright at St. Andrews, I disagree.

[@loveandmercy9664]

The first nations people of Canada need to hear this.

[@sentientflower7891]

Genocide NBD!

[@loveandmercy9664]

@@sentientflower7891 All my ancestors went through similar things. Canada was built by suffering. Both my parental grandfathers descended from defunct German cultures Alsatian and Russian German. The Alsatian One had their lands burned and religious identity supressed by Napoleon and his Merry men. Today Alsac-lorraine is French speaking and part of France despite its customs still very German. The other is a Russian-German who were tossed out and had their lands confiscated by the soviets. One of my parental Grandmother's descendeds from Metis royalty in Alberta and they got screwed over by the Canadian government in by what is called Metis Script. My other grandmother was Polish and nobody can talk about white supremacy or systemic racism when comes to the Poles. They have spent most of their history kicked around by different empires until very recently. Not mention one million Poles went to the concentration camps. Life is hard. I think the Lord's prayer says it best: “O Great Father, the one who lives above us all, your name is sacred and holy. “Bring your Good Road to us, where the beauty of your ways in the world above is reflected in the earth below. 3 “Provide for us day by day-the elk, the buffalo, and the salmon; the corn, the squash, and the wild rice; all the good things we need every day to feed our families. 4 “Release us from the things we have done wrong in the same way we release others for the things done wrong to us. And guide us away from the things that tempt us to stray from your Good Road.” First Nations version

[@timh8324]

I find the biggest difference or problem with woke Christianity is the watering down or lack of need for repentance. Repentance is the way to salvation. The great commission was for the disciples to go out and proclaim repentance for the forgiveness of sins Luke 24:47

[@jamesbarry1673]

Never forget......................... Old sins cast long shadows.............

[@lesvitraux]

Interesting. It's been over a decade since I agreed with Wright but here he is correct.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

Before forgiveness must come accountability. For to love your enemy, is to know your enemy, and to know your enemy is to make them naked before Man and God. Least we forget.... "🌊VENGEANCE IS MINE SAITH THE LORD 🔥"

[@mr.c2485]

To know your enemy is to know YOURSELF with your desires/needs.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@mr.c2485 There's no need or desire in me, for all has been fulfilled by the LOVE and example of (Jesus) For if I am at fault... All is made clear before him. 🌊⚖🔥

[@mr.c2485]

@@streetwisepioneers4470 So you’re a nihilist for Jesus? Obviously, you have the desire/need to please Jesus. I see a contradiction.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@mr.c2485 No I am simply at one with the balance and truth therein. ⚖

[@schnellster1]

As said here we are meaning and story driven creatures. This is precisely Christianity spread so fast since the way it was dispersed was using simple words and the compliance terms to stay in it are also very simple. Now as people are ' reading' deep into the texts, anomalies and questions are abound.

[@mr.c2485]

I believe we are desire/need driven creatures. We all desire/need the same thing….soundness of mind. The problem is…this soundness is in direct conflict with the use of malice (in any form). The two cannot coexist..

[@sentientflower7891]

Christianity was spread by sword.

[@chrisoutofafrica2850]

Wonderful conversation, but credit must be given to Michael Cassidy and African Enterprise and those involved with the NIR at the time in South Africa. We had a miracle of God in the country. It had nothing to do with Tutu. His books and his public speak often didn't match. People living in the West see it from an armchair and media perspective. I was there on the ground working with the people in violence-torn areas of KZN, doing reconciliation work and saw what was happening.

[@johntwemlow6089]

In March 2019, 51 Muslims were killed in mosques, in the city of Christchurch. Some surviving family members spoke publicly of their forgiveness towards the white supremist. This forgiveness is universal.

[@ShimonBenTzionbtz]

Shimon BenTzion ❤Identity is exactly the question?? how do we recognize death while being in death and destruction, how can we die when we are already dead and have no concept of Life or being alive?? Religion is dead and will forever remain dead, as is written, on the day you eat of it you will surely die!

[@thespiritofhegel3487]

Try not having enemies. I've managed it.

[@brando3342]

@The Spirit of Hegel You’re always going to have enemies, you just might now know who they are yet.

[@michaelhenry1763]

Great for interpersonal relationships, however. This conversation is about forgiveness at the societal or national level. So taking your comment global , oppressed groups have enemies and it is not their fault. We cannot ask them to forgive their oppressors. Unless those oppressors lose power and are held accountable

[@rkroger9725]

This forgiveness comes from Christ forgiving the criminal nailed next to him.Christ was silent on the victims of the criminal? They had never heard of Christ,were heathens and destined to burn in hell anyway, only Christians are saved, provided they repent before they die.The punishment or reward is in the afterlife,at the end of time when Christ returns in billion,or trillion years time- in other words neverJohn Ñewton believed his repentance for slave trade was forgiven,but how many slaves forgave him? The very religion that did not prevent Newton from indulging in slavery came to rescue him? Really? The beauty (?) saving grace of Christianity is that Christians like the Romans raped,pillaged and plundered, there is a get out card as long as they seek forgiveness before they die, they are saved!

[@michaelhenry1763]

Amazing post. Excellent analysis

[@whatisjoedoing]

not you too, NT Wright…

[@WyldlifeHouston]

what do you mean?

[@darlameeks]

I'm not sure I'm working with the same definition of "woke" as these distinguished gentlemen. (I'm a particular fan of N.T. Wright's amazing and hope-filled theological insights). Just after George Floyd's murder last year, this term, though not new, emerged among both black and white people to define those who are no longer asleep to American systemic racism and social injustice. For the first time, even white people "woke up" to entrenched racist structures within our society, unifying many of us with our black brothers and sisters. What, pray, is wrong with that? I never heard "woke" used in a way that would exclude repentance, grace or forgiveness. The right wing media commentators immediately turned the term pejorative, which is unfortunate. I live in the American south, so I am very aware that police officers do harass, injure or even kill unarmed black people with little to no provocation. I am very aware that, despite gains and progress, black people are still more likely to live in poverty here. As a Christian, I must say that we can sit around and talk about grace and forgiveness all day, and we very well should. However, a fair amount of repentance needs to happen first. Our white establishment (including the white evangelical church) does nothing but throw more white-wash on the already whited sepulcher of white privilege . Here in Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis and his Republican legislature has made it illegal to discuss in schools any history of violence, discrimination or oppression against black, Asian or indigenous peoples. He will now require all faculty and students in public universities to register their political views with the state. It's as terrifying as it sounds. I see that you don't like the word "woke", but I do hope that doesn't mean you prefer ignorant slumber. Jesus' favor was bestowed on the poor, the lame, the sick, women and those hated heretic half-breeds, the Samaritans. We who follow Him must favor the marginalized as He did. (Dear brothers across the pond...I had some of my education at Oxford and I love the UK. I do pray you will not sit and watch the rise of fascism in America and say nothing.)

[@michaelhenry1763]

Excellent, excellent post.

[@ianhall3822]

Christian forgiveness is a dangerous concept. It assumes that your sins can be forgiven by a priest, or merely saying the Lord's Prayer. The only person who has the right to forgive you, is the person you have sinned against. No-one else has the right to be involved.

[@deniss2623]

You sin against God first and foremost, because He created the person you have sinned against.

[@someonethatisachristian]

Douglas Murray thinks much the same i used to think back in the 90s when i was a teenager, but i didnt have words to express it in a good way or enough knowledge to call it out. Something for the church to think about, because a large portion of the population is a bit "forgotten" by a church that gives out a message most would see as politically correct and political correctness = treason in the eyes of many, the way i see it. The church needs to be clearer against dangerous cults like islam, and needs to take a more pro Israel stand because hamas are not "friends" we christians need. Woke ideology is also poisoning the church.

[@samuelstephen2762]

Hey Justin, I appreciate your work (and the work of Tom Wright too). I do think it's unhelpful to use "woke," as a pejorative, even to describe people you may disagree with. Besides the fact that it has been appropriated by self-proclaimed progressives or what have you when it was instead a word specifically used by black folk to describe their own self-awareness to their sufferings, it almost instantly mischaracterizes an entire group of people, many of whom are simply concerned about justice.

[@sentientflower7891]

Christians were the first woke activists when they insisted that Romans and Jews care about the death of a rebel peasant.

[@michaelhenry1763]

Well said

[@willcrozier9153]

Fair comment. It’s a constant in human history however that certain groups set themselves up as “the ones who care”, and woke is our current iteration of this. The notion that non-woke philosophies “don’t care about the oppressed” is what causes so much push-back. As long as we remain comfortable arbitrarily judging other people groups as morally inferior, wokeness will thrive.

[@sentientflower7891]

@@willcrozier9153 the non-woke are actively engaged in oppressing people and spreading hate, bigotry and xenophobia.

[@pjrodriguez386]

I feel like they're talking about Christian ethics in the abstract while people practically are hurting. Christians had the moral obligation to end slavery, but I feel like these guys would just talk about the "Gospel" in that time. If your gospel just happens to conveniently ignore practically dealing with issues like racism then I'm failing to see the Holy Spirit power and conviction in your ideology

[@michaelhenry1763]

Wow, you kicked a$$ with that post.

[@pjrodriguez386]

@Jim Merrilees it certainly reads a bit redundant lol. Just treat people the way you want to be treated, I doubt anyone wants to be a slave right

[@joemeyers4131]

I can suspect a legalistic wrong antiracism that think it is bad to even mention your ethnic heritage or when a US citizen .A basic way of discovery remedying that is carefully look at Genesis chapter 9 to 11 ( dig into historical meanings .. example clue is name Peleg is factually in the Andamese lore name Pulugu ..) . Giving a little foretaste .

[@home8630]

You have a very idealogical view on christianity and forgiveness that is just not true. In the bible, Jesus speaks to the disciples before they became Apostles, Those sins you remit are remitted and those sins you retained are retained. In other words those your forgive are forgiven and those you retain are retained and not forgiven.Not every single Christian is required to forgive everyone of everything all the time. Which means you think you can behave any way you want to, to Christians and you expect them to forgive you, Not necessarily particularly when God says No, and He does say No, not just Yes. Not everyone seeks forgiveness either. And certainly there a whole bunch of people who do things, commit offences beyond measure and never say they are sorry. Which means they don't care who they hurt and yet they are the ones expect those who they have hurt to forgive them when there is no apology majority of the time. God does not forgive everyone before they die. And not everyone before they die seeks God's forgiveness. That is the reality without the ideology and a set of false ideals that are just not true. When you take Forgiveness for granted you make it not only meaningless but you make it like it has no true value in your soul. Only seek God's forgiveness because we are in trouble, is also a horrible thing todo, because its using God for your own benefit and selfish gain to get out of trouble, without truly caring about Him at all and without caring about christians or the church. When the trouble is over you go back and do it all over again, which means you don't learn and repeat it continually.

[@karlwagner6187]

Why not just forgivness without attaching "faith" to it? This assumption that you need to believe in a god to be moral is one of the myths that christianity and most other religions proclaim.

[@matOpera]

Without some supreme personal being in the universe, there is no “moral” to be in the first place. There are just the subjective opinions of people about morality.

[@BARKERPRODUCTION]

"Do not return evil to your adversary; Requite with kindness the one who does evil to you, Maintain justice for your enemy." (the Akkadian "Counsels of Wisdom", circa 2000 BC) "In this world hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate. This is the law, ancient and inexhaustible." (The Dhammapada) "Return love for hatred. Otherwise, when a great hatred is reconciled, some of it will surely remain. How can this end in goodness? " (Taoist "T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien", circa 200 BC.

[@deniss2623]

Hi, David. These are valuable but abstracted reflections of the Truth. We can know something and assent to it intellectually, and still be unable to actually do it. Only one man has perfectly kept the Divine Law for us - in addition paying the price of our abject failure.

[@BARKERPRODUCTION]

@@deniss2623 I just wrote those to demonstrate that the concept of “love your enemy” does not originate with Christianity. I’m not trying to make any further claims about the validity any particular religion.

[@deniss2623]

@@BARKERPRODUCTION Thanks, David. I understand. We can't do what we know we should do. That is why we need a Saviour. He is precious beyond description. He is utterly unique. Christianity (Truth) is from the Beginning, and predates everything else. It did not begin 2000 years ago.

[@BARKERPRODUCTION]

@@deniss2623 That seems like an assertion without evidence. Can you demonstrate that Christianity predates Hinduism?

[@deniss2623]

The Bible takes it right back to Creation, ex nihilo, by God the Son. (All things were created by Him and for Him). All things begin with Christ, although the Incarnation (God taking upon Himself a human nature) was yet to come. Subsequently the fall of man came about by swallowing the lie that we could be our own gods, with the authority to decide for ourselves what was good and what was evil. This was the birth of Hinduism.

[@sanjosemike3137]

How can ANYONE forgive the German nation from causing the merciless suffering and deaths of at least 28 million Russians and Poles? Are Germans entitled to forgiveness? Can they ever be? Should young Germans be “excused” for what their grandparents and great grandparents did? The depth of damage done by German transcends “the sins of the fathers’. This is a whole new category of sinning. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)

[@Clodaghbob]

We are responsible for our own actions. You cannot blame innocent people for the sins of others just because they are from the same race. Whether you are descended from nazis or from Stalin's murdering henchmen is a pure accident of birth.

[@Clodaghbob]

Jim Merrilees Says who?

[@Clodaghbob]

Jim Merrilees I'm an agnostic but I think the God of the Christians gets bad press (thanks mainly to some Christians). 'The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.' - _G.K._ _Chesterson_

[@michaelhenry1763]

Wonderfully said. Forgiveness is about individuals. It is not on a societal or global level. Forgiveness happens when two live and let live, like 1 Corinthians 13, do not keep records of wrong and forgive the ones you love. At a societal level it is about accountability

[@Clodaghbob]

Jim Merrilees "You can only be atheist or theist". Who says? For me the idea of atheism is illogical. You cannot prove that there isn't a God any more than you can prove that there isn't a lump of green cheese at the centre of all the black holes in the universe. You can take a position on what is likely and live by that. But you cannot dogmatically state 'there is no creator'. Let's face it, science suggests that if you look really closely, everything is much weirder than previously thought. The most honest position is 'I don't know'. I wasn't standing up for the Old Testament's version of God. The Jews didn't refer to him as 'father'. The Christians did. So clearly they had a different perspective. When it comes to morality, I'd opt for the Christian version rather than the pure atheist one. My gut instinct tells me there _is_ good and evil. Anyhow, I have chosen to live as if it were so rather than according to Prof. Dawkins' theories. "The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but a blind, pitiless indifference." - _Richard_ _Dawkins_

[@ianhall3822]

Jesus said a very foolish thing in Matthew 12 verse 31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." We can ignore blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, since no-one, not even Bishop Wright, has a clue what the Holy Ghost is, and "for all manner of sin to be forgiven", gives the Christian free rein to sin as much as he, or she likes.

[@deniss2623]

I can tell you what this sin is if you want me to?

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

Cane chose his calling as opposed to what God called upon him and able . When offended and jealous he undermined , attacked and oppressed. Chaldeans turned from the image of God in humanity and worshiped astronomy faith in all their answers to he found in the math. Greek thought all the answers was in the pantheon of nature plus which still lives on today . All these can be found in the same temples. Whats really sad is that one attention seeker can undermine a entire church of likeminded fellowship . We dont seek out homes in unlawful areas just like we dont seek out churches with more sin than we carry in ourselves. It is some churches that are eqaul in growth they have aged together and are on same spiritual level who have survived so many challenges that they arent up for carrying others they cant help . Anyone who seeks to disrupt these fellowship shouldn't be elevated for what they are doing. .

[@sentientflower7891]

Cain was fine, God was the jealous sinner.

[@michaelhenry1763]

What are you taking about and what does this have to do with the conversation ? Cain? Really?

[@sentientflower7891]

@@michaelhenry1763 Cain was a woke activist teaching CRT to the snakes of the garden. Abel tried to get him denied tenure. You know the rest.

[@lbeschrich]

Is there a “hell” if so how do you know and why do I have to believe it?

[@pjrodriguez386]

you don't have to believe in it, but I believe in it because 1. Jesus talks about it and 2. the idea of terrible people just getting away with their crimes against humanity really disturbs me lol. Of course I would want Marie LaVeau to have repented before she died bc I want Jesus to get what He wants, but if she did not, well I'm not losing any sleep over it

[@brando3342]

If it exists, then it’s true that it exists, and whether you believe it or not is completely irrelevant. Then you have to ask if you’re going to take it seriously or not.

[@mr.c2485]

Noone knows anything about a heaven or a hell. Without their “special book” they wouldn’t have even considered the possibility that either exists. They would be just as clueless as they say nonbelievers are. That book is the problem…. Pascal’s wager and the scared straight program are both manmade garbage designed to control the masses. This goes back hundreds of years. As far as the credibility of the book is concerned, there are many writings that predate the Bible by hundreds of years. Many manuscripts exist that simply didn’t “make the cut”. What does that tell you?

[@mr.c2485]

@@brando3342 Sounds like you’ve made your mind up on the subject. Without evidence, all you have is Pascal’s wager which has been debunked over and over.

[@lbeschrich]

@@mr.c2485 I agree with you 10,000 percent 👌🏼

[@ianhall3822]

Forgiveness found in Christianity? Absurd. Hundreds of thousands of women worldwide die in childbirth every year, and have done so since the dawn of human history. Millions more have to have life saving caesarians. According to Christianity, the answer lies in Genesis 3 verse 16, and God said to Eve " I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children." And also with death, we add. No forgiveness here from the God of " Love, Mercy and Forgiveness". I suggest it's about time God forgave Eve for eating that forbidden fruit. Over to Jesus and Bishop Wright for an answer.

[@stevem7945]

NT Wright sounds like a big crybaby.

[@thucydides7849]

NT Wright is dead wrong here. 500 years before jesus, Socrates was saying that it is never ok to repay injustice with further injustice. To think that judeo Christian morals evolved in a vacuum is to misunderstand everything about history

[@PeterFortuna]

Strawman much?

[@kenkroohs4856]

One of few times I have heard NTW as mean spirited towards others. His broad attacks on people at the beginning of this clip are not appropriate. You criticize the actions but he excluded and virtually condemned people. And when people are attacked using unspecified insults like “woke” is beneath him I am going to assume there was more happening here than I know of. He is a blessing

[@michaelhenry1763]

Forgiveness is a wonderful ideal to pursue on the personal level. Jesus tells us to forgive. Forgiveness is part of loving someone. It is great. However, wokeness is extremely good for our societies right now. We need to look at our institutions and the past “ heros” we venerate and ask ourselves if this is the society we want . Truth and reconciliation commissions are great. But they tend to happen immediately after the end of the oppression. Today, when we are thinking of the US or UK, those commissions will not work because the conservatives in power would not want to participate and do not see their role in it. Lastly, we cannot always ask victims to forgive their perpetrators.

[@willcrozier9153]

There are no heroes. Only humans. As long as we are venerating our “heroes” of the past for the praiseworthy things they did, we will probably keep moving in a good direction. Totally in favour of disclosing their shortfalls, but this should be done from a place of truth-seeking not vengeance.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@willcrozier9153 TRUTH is vengeance to the WICKED because it offers no refuge to a LIER! 🧭

[@CornCod1]

These Commissions are Stalinist show trials, there is no forgiveness there. Nor is their any spirit of reconciliation. The ANC is a Communist organization, a phony ideaology all about hate and resentment.

[@sentientflower7891]

Tom Wright is a liar. He isn't at all honest.

[@deniss2623]

Neither are you!

[@sentientflower7891]

@@deniss2623 I am more honest than him as I am not paid to lie.

[@deniss2623]

@@sentientflower7891 You do it for free?

[@sentientflower7891]

@@deniss2623 everyone lies for free. People like N.T. Wright are skilled enough at lying to make a profession of it.

[@emmanuel8310]

@@deniss2623 😂🤣 He does it to pay debt, and free sometimes 😂🤣

[@kwesikamau3458]

This conversation is unfortunate.