Douglas Murray & NT Wright: Has the Church become too woke?

NT Wright talks to Douglas Murray about his Spectator article which accused the Church of England of bowing to ‘woke' anti-racist ideology.
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[@gracegeek4678]

This is proper, respectful, kind debate. This is the antithesis of "cancel culture". If we had more exchanges like this, society would be much more civil.

[@radscorpion8]

Maybe its because they both agree with each other on everything

[@gracegeek4678]

@@radscorpion8 so it's ok to not be civil if we disagree....?........

[@travelswithted673]

Imagine being in a room with these legends. 👏

[@chaiman3761]

Equality is not treating everyone the same, it is giving everyone the same opportunities.

[@dustyparker4806]

I’ve never heard it put so well!

[@michaelc3051]

Equality of opportunity pre-supposes some level of overall equality. Enormous disparities of wealth and power makes equality of opportunity a mere platitude.

[@chaiman3761]

@@michaelc3051 giving people a leg up is better than nothing.

[@francmittelo6731]

"Equality is not treating everyone the same, it is giving everyone the same opportunities. " This is a deepity my friend. Why? Because giving everyone the same opportunities is treating everyone the same. You are contradicting yourself. LOL

[@chaiman3761]

@@francmittelo6731 symantics!

[@e1ay3dme12]

Amazing. No, not that they're talking about this, bit that they waited to start talking about it now. It's been in full swing since the 60's and 70's.

[@BobSmith-lb9nc]

Wright and Murray are brilliant.

[@aimsdrew9]

This is such an important topic to dialogue about. Postmodern secular humanism attempts to create a new set of rules for human flourishing without a grounding in objective truth. Genuine Christianity is grounded in a set of standards demonstrated by Jesus Christ that provide the very framework needed for individual and societal flourishing. Unfortunately, the church and Christians throughout modern history have thoroughly mucked things up and perpetuated tribalism more than living out the gospel.

[@sentientflower7891]

Ask the Native Americans about that.

[@emmashalliker6862]

Or the children raped by priests, ask the 700 babies and children found beaten and buried at a Catholic school in Ireland or the ones they're digging up in Canada. Imagine how many horrors are out there.

[@sentientflower7891]

@@emmashalliker6862 indeed. Christianity has spent two thousand years spilling blood beginning in the book of Acts.

[@warlorddoug18]

so instead of a framework centred around a vague idea about human flourishing its centred around, would my favorite figurehead like me doing that. One has the direct goal of flourishing while the other constantly play the no true Scotsman fallacy whenever a Christian does something wrong or immoral.

[@jennifer97363]

Objective truth? Subjective truth? Basically semantics when you boil it down. There is only one truth- human-based. There is no ‘Christian morality’ which is not accessible to non- Christians, and Christians participate in every single type of immorality there is. We are all the same. Prove your objective morality is reality. Prove that it, and the god on which you believe it is based, is not solely the product of yearning human imagination.

[@ecofundi6001]

The church should be AWAKE not woke. We would then love our neighbour as ourselves and there would be no need for specific "movements" because God's love would eradicate the prejudices.

[@bayreuth79]

The CofE is unquestionably a poor excuse for a Christian church. It simply mirrors, to a large extent, the values of modern British culture rather than shaping those values.

[@sentientflower7891]

Ahem, do you know how that church began?

[@littleredcelt]

100% agree.

[@bayreuth79]

@@sentientflower7891 Yes, I do but that was centuries ago. And I said “modern British values”.

[@sentientflower7891]

@@bayreuth79 when did colonialism end?

[@bayreuth79]

@@sentientflower7891 Do you have a point…? You might like to get to it

[@conantheseptuagenarian3824]

equality may perhaps be a right, but no power on earth can ever turn it into a fact. - balzac

[@P.H.888]

LOVE! 👀

[@sheiscalledforjesus8741]

Please have Voddie Baucham (Biblical Justice) and Ibram Kendi (Social Justice) for another big conversation. Pleaseee many people would love to hear both sides. Thank youu ❤️

[@BenWeeks]

Voddie would be good. Kendi doesn't like debates. Coleman Hughes already tried.

[@pjrodriguez386]

Is Ibrahim even Christian though? I want 2 Christians debating the issue. Maybe Esau McCaulley and Voddie instead

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

Such a good point. Only one side represented here but maybe they was the intention. Would like to be wrong.

[@Himmiefan]

Bodies Baucham is too problematic, too affiliated with Bill Gothard. Baucham is on record as saying that men need the attention of young women, so God gave them daughters. Yeah, he’s a part of the stay-at-home daughter movement.

[@ryanrudolph1092]

I think you mean Henry Rogers (his real name - Ibram X Kendi is a name he has appropriated from cultures he doesn't belong to). If he isn't available, let's try Ron Burns (Thabiti Anyabwile). But Voddie (real name) is ready to go!

[@kynismos]

Christianity is about justice not "social justice".

[@NoContextRDH]

NT Wright missed off the ‘neither Jew nor Greek quote’ it actually says at the end ‘all are one IN CHRIST JESUS’ - it is talking about those who are IN CHRIST not society as a whole.

[@timnoe19]

this discussion is about the church

[@williamoarlock8634]

Except 2,000 years of Christian history reveals you a house divided among itself.

[@tonycomer5452]

Great points and rational discussion.

[@IosifStalin2]

I would wager that the Southern blacks would have appreciated a more "woke" Southern Baptist Church, some 100 years ago

[@haroldwood1394]

Thank you all for this discussion. I would take issue with N.T. Wright's quotation from Galatians so far as social justice is concerned. Jesus in the gospels says nothing about slavery to slave owners, and Paul also admonishes slaves to obey their masters. They both expected the Apocalypse to come at any moment, and they were not giving moral advice for ages to come.

[@brianmason9803]

Anybody who thinks that Jesus says nothing about slavery to slave owners or anybody else has not really understood His words. The longest journey for Christians is from the head to the heart. Loving one another does not allow for slavery in any form.

[@haroldwood1394]

@@brianmason9803 Hello, Brian. Originally, I believed the same. However much we might want to infer it, Jesus is not recorded to have said this to the slave owners with whom he came into contact. He certainly had many chances to be specific on the issue. My own understanding, such as it is, is that he was an apocalyptic preacher convinced that the new order/end/judgement day was just about to come, so that social changes like an end to slavery were minor in comparison. Perhaps slaves, like the poor 'will always be with you'. Kind regards to you.

[@greg5023]

In Moral vs Woke news, it was reported this week that as part of his sermon, a Catholic priest in Canada celebrated the good work of the church's residential schools for Native Peoples. Also Trudeau called on Pope Francis to visit Canada and apologize for the horrors of the church's schools.

[@jennifer97363]

The Pope has seen fit to not respond to PM Trudeau’s request, on his visit to the Vatican in 2017, that he issue an apology to First Nations for the unimaginable suffering the Catholic church has, and continues to have, caused sovereign human beings. It is an utter disgrace.

[@nameetharish9385]

Only in postmodernism can you expect people to think they can build houses on thin air.

[@sentientflower7891]

Heaven is fantasy.

[@lkae4]

@@sentientflower7891 What about socialism, secular humanism and atheism being good things? Are those fantasies?

[@sentientflower7891]

@@lkae4 nothing whatsoever is innately good or bad, there are just things that humans do.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@sentientflower7891 that gave rise to a universe at t=0

[@sentientflower7891]

@@streetwisepioneers4470 what gave rise to a Universe?

[@reeb9016]

How about ditching the church of England and follow the church of Christ?

[@CKD3332]

We need the Church to build community and to preach the word of God.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@CKD3332 no you simply require the words, the truth, the devotion and inspiration of the spirit and the church and the community will follow!

[@grahamwilliams8871]

'The Church', which one? Protestant churches are so divided I only listen to the Orthodox now.

[@curiousgeorge555]

The church is the body of Christ - (All who are born again unto the Kingdom of God through the Holy Spirit). I listen to Holy Scripture and The Spirit.

[@esebams6211]

Only listen to God, read the bible for yourself. The church is not God, it isn’t the final say on things, God’s word is.

[@bertrandrussell894]

@@esebams6211 And ignore the contradictions, world genocide, imorality and the four differing versions of the gospels.

[@esebams6211]

@@bertrandrussell894 what contradictions do you mean? If all the witness accounts were the exact same that would be more suspicious. If you and I witnessed a crime and I saw some running away from a bridge wearing a turquoise hoody but you saw the same person running towards the bridge and you described the hoody as green it’s not necessarily contradictory. Also people kill because of football, music and postcodes. The common denominator here is PEOPLE. There irrespective of what people are like each belief system must be judged in its own merit and proper application

[@bertrandrussell894]

@@esebams6211 Well if you don't know about the contradictions, errors and historical inaccuracies then I can only assume you fo not care to find out.

[@howardbabcom]

The program isn't for equality, but equity. This is a cornerstone of what H G Wells defined as the open conspiracy. The WEF views religion (not Christianity) as the third leg of the stool in respect to power (control).

[@mr.c2485]

Tom was great in the “Halloween” movies!

[@DS-uo5ie]

Your thinking of Donald Plesance!

[@NiinaSKlove]

😂

[@johnhoward1181]

Maybe I don't have a full understanding of "wokeness" but I have difficulties comprehending the objections to it. It seems to me to be aware of our faults like racism, injustice and inequality would be a good thing.

[@markland1000]

Brilliant ! All the way around.

[@markgado8782]

Great snippet.

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

Oh, those troublesome people who speak up about oppression, just making us feel uncomfortable. It is so unbiblical... but hang on a minute..! Those prophets talking about speaking up for the oppressed. Were they "wrong" too? I admire N.T. Wright and Premier, their radio and lifeline too but the part they are highlighting sounds rather populists if the participants were under the impression that their perspective is the "right" one and they are apolitical so I think this struck the wrong note. Do they think that people who speak up are doing it just for the sake of making them feel uncomfortable? Or are there some actual issues involved? Class is also of concern too. There were so many Biblical concepts that could have been talked about here: compassion, fair wages for your labour, repentance, reformation, restitution, the scriptures about speaking up for the oppressed, etc but the discussion has been oversimplified as though all that is said is "you are wrong" because certain people's comfort, status and entitlement to set the agenda in deciding what is universally important must be preserved at all times. I suppose if was your daughter who came across abusive people, you would gaslight her by telling her that the main problem was her attitude about it and her lack of forgiveness rather than the actual abuse itself. If it was your children concerned, for example, about their safety, getting higher sentences for the same crimes, or killed without trials, being more likely to be poor or 5 times more likely to die while giving birth then certain people feeling uncomfortable that you talked about it and would like change would be more important and a bigger problem than the issues themselves. Bearing in mind what is happening with certain (church) institutions, this treatment is rather blinkered, oversimplistic and disappointing.

[@brentporter986]

I see why you may have walked away with that conclusion. It sounds like you have something else in mind completely though. One of Tom's main points is that 1) there is the real Kingdom of God at work and then 2) the people of the world who try to take the Kingdom by force...all without the guidance of the King. Naturally, because both groups are after the same thing, there will be major convergence between these two groups: the Church and the secular humanist/social justice advocates, respectively. The problem, they are saying, is the secular humanists have unhinged themselves from the Christian moral ethic but tried to keep all the good stuff that clearly advances progress on Earth like equal human value. But in their attempts in realizing the kingdom they desire, they have kicked out the King, and decided to make the rules themselves. Some of this, as he said, is because the Church failed in fulfilling its complete calling so others had to come in to step up to the call. Good on them! The problem is they advocate for justice but have lost sight of their connection to the source of Justice. They advocate for freedom, but have lost connection to the source of Freedom. And in so doing, they have no King to guide them. When nothing is sacred, all is consumed. And this is the primary folly of the progressive -- nothing is unquestioned, anything can be changed. And suddenly, everyone else is expected to "get on with the program" as Tom would say.

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

@@brentporter986 Thanks for taking the time to carefully reply. I agree with many of the general points you highlight but not necessarily the conclusion. There is an implicit bias in terms of the identification of the proposed problem and the focus of big hook for viewers at the beginning is attacking a certain view of what is classed as wokeness from an unidentified perspective. The idea that this perspective is entirely "Christian" is an an assumption based on particular biases that are not identified. I'll give you a clue: they are the opposite of "woke" or "humanist/social justice advocates" as you have termed it. There is a blinkerdness that means people's personal biases go above their heads, keeping them externally focussed and unable to see or hear themselves. Are "woke" people the only ones who are denying Jesus by their thinking? Are the original issues that "woke" people respond to of less concern than being challenged on your thoughts toward other people? If so, what would that say about those people who hold those views and their "Christian" theology when it comes to those points? The bias is in how people with the only views that are visible or of the most concern here have been placed under a big homogenous label supposedly encompassing many things and this is emboldening people to dismiss and gaslight real troubles others face every day, as you can see in the comments. It's fine if you don't experience the consequences. I am not surprised by the recent research from the US that says Christians are more racist than the general population but it should not be so in my view. I find that there is often such a strong response to the idea of earthly justice that it smells like fear from those who are concerned that they would be affected if wrongs were righted as they have benefited and wish to maintain their own comfort. We all know the opinion re "wokism" but this form of self-preservation is self-centered. Finally, does knowing that God is ultimately responsible for justice mean that it is ok for people to suffer and to spiritualise away any responsibilities to seek what is right and alleviate suffering where possible as Christians?

[@brentporter986]

@@AnonyMe-qy5vz I see your point. You've said a lot here, but essentially you seem to be pointing out that the "woke" groups aren't the only ones supposedly ignoring the Bible or what Jesus says, its also the ones criticizing the unidentified leaders of woke culture who have themselves benefitted from past injustices even if not directly. I see your concern and agree with most of your points. Even so, I would say your concern may be misplaced in the context of this particular video. NT Wright is addressing the very real concerns Dr. Murray has, who as far as I can tell, is a political conservative with conservative philosophical concepts about the world. I think he brilliantly answered Dr. Murray's concerns and gave him quite a lot to think about. If you were talking to an agnostic with conservative economical political views who has honestly legitimate critiques on woke culture and how its infiltrated the Church, how would you respond? Wright, in a charitable and pastoral way, seemed to say "hey look we are attempting to understand what Holy Justice looks like from a biblical perspective and when that happens to overlap with secular ideas of justice then we hold hands and fight together. When it does not line up with secular ideas of justice, then we diverge." And in this way, we preserve the fight for justice, without allowing worldly concepts of justice to contaminate the Church's faithfulness to our Lord. There is a way to pick up the fight for justice while also acknowledging the danger of how the world distorts Godly justice in their quest for their own utopia. We can pick up the fight for justice and still maintain a healthy distance from a world with ulterior motives, namely money and power. Which is also my response to your last point. No, the fact that God is judge means we can rest ASSURED that God will deal with injustice rightly. In the mean time, when we have the power, the Church ought to be a gateway for Heaven's freedom into this world. We just don't have to fight against evil anxiously anymore, knowing our God will right all wrongs in the end even when we fall short. This belief was likely the only comfort for black slaves in the States who were stuck in a system they couldn't change. Likewise, to your point, the spiritualization of salvation was also what kept social reform from happening in the States in the 18th and 19th centuries against slavery. Missionaries had to make compromises by preaching a Gospel message of freedom from spiritual sin, but not also advocating for physical freedom from their chains. This was done because slaveholders would not allow the missionaries to come if they advocated otherwise, so they compromised for an eternity of salvation but to allow the continuation of a horrible life on earth. But just because Christians in the UK and especially in the United States failed miserably in this respect, it doesn't mean we ought to conclude that justice ISN'T a spiritual issue, a very serious spiritual reality that God won't ultimately take care of. Its really our only hope, that God will right all the wrongs some day. As long as we continue to be humans, it will always be a serious problem. As image bearers, non-Christians can do many wonderful and incredible things in our world as they have done. But they will ultimately be disconnected from our God, so we ought to ultimately listen to His Timeless Word, rather than people who are literally inventing new morality one day and the next day expecting everyone to jump on board. God's Word has been tested and passed with time, theirs hasn't.

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

@@brentporter986 Thanks, again, for your considered, detailed response. I will have to finish reading it another time. Perhaps N.T Wright is someone you admire and maybe Premier too. I detect a real motivation to respond based on convictions in regard to him or this interpretation and maybe validate his/this perspective. I have a regard for them as God has used them to play a part at times during my Christian walk and my studies. That is even though here he is reminding me of my Dad who hated to be told he was wrong and sometimes I would say "Oh Dad!" and wish he would stop saying something misconstrued and embarrassing about people from other groups. No, I am not speaking for or defending 'woke culture' an oversimplistic term which has become talking point in a wider culture itself, not just here. Drilling down to the real reasons why this is of particular concern to some would be interesting- it's obviously not just something that concerns N.T Wright so what are the common denominators in the recent push back reactions in various circles from specific people? Many are not aware of the previous cultural assumptions existing in the first place that go unnoticed/unchallenged. Then if so-called 'woke culture' refers to it, there is a blindness and automatic resistance from people used to being very comfy because the world and society is organised around them. Although I do not agree with all aspects of the various ideas arising from activism in recent years because of my Biblical convictions, I am grateful for some. I am not a football fan, but it is fascinating to learn from recent current affairs, again, non Christians and someone like Gareth Southgate who has done so much better than many of our 'Christian' members and Pastors, from my perspective, showing much better leadership in regards to dealing with racism and inclusivity. In the debacle around kneeling before matches, his black players are racially abused, dehumanised and depreciated on a regular basis in "the culture" but as per the predictable pattern, many people don't care. They should keep their mouths shut about the abuse and just play. It's not a problem to them, however, just hearing someone speak about it is a huge problem, so because they are used to comfort t and getting to define what 'the problem' is, they feel they have the authority deflect the conversation to that and that is what they insist we speak about instead. This is not a spiritual or Biblical enterprise: the same thing is happening both within and outside the church. I dont think the whole kneeling gesture in itself is the only way or only thing that can be done, but Southgate has used his platform effectively and defended his players decision to speak up. He and his players have fostered an environment of a team that cares for one another: I wish we could say the same. He treats them with dignity and has demonstrated humility that many of us lack, including our Christian leaders. Some are in danger of behaving in a narcissistic manner. They are used to being placed on a pedestal, must always be in control of the conversation, even if they have no lived experiences and they must be right but they are not used to being challenged or being accountable themselves. On checking my DNA, my existence is very likely to have been influenced by systematic sexual abuses of British enslavers during their national involvement in this for 400 years . The illiteracy they enforced under violent punishment blights certain individuals and communities to this day but at least the enslavers were compensated when it ended. 😳 These events lasted the longest of any comparable social dynamic and were supported by ideologies about other people so deeply ingrained that they remain today. I and those around me have had various experiences that can be traced back: a near death experience because of poor emergency treatment, abuse by random members of the public, police searches after school, oppression sanctioned by 'the cuture' has played a problematic role in our mental health, led to discrimination in education that nearly ruined some of our futures, etc (there is a recent documentary about the 'educationally subnormal', a label that was bandied about for decades that has destroyed people's educations and careers and people are living with the affects to this day). The death rate in pregnancy that is 5X the average really scares me. I consider addressing these things to be a matter of emergency. That, to me, is the main problem, not the people saying this is wrong and wanting change. I write about this with hesitation because I know that many people honestly do not care and this takes second place to the interests of those who traditionally set parameters, get to define the problem, control how it should be presented and addressed which usually means never. I repeat that there are many scriptures dealing with opression and injustice that require action to be taken, but these are ignored. This is wilfull. The Church became part of the establishment, reneged its role of being a challenge to 'the culture' and just stopped talking about certain things. My church's leaders were threatened by the secret services in certain places and changed their teaching. Complicity is a form of compromise that has great social rewards. We should look back at our Church history with real openness and intellectual honesty for answers regarding where we are today as it is often not God's leading or comprehensive Biblical teachings but social forces that have shaped our views today. The psychological and social comfort certain people seek to maintain is foregrounded yet nearly always invisible to them. So this need is covered by seeking to control the narrative using crude labels that switch the focus, dismissing the desire for change as being unreasonable, unless its dome in ways that suit them, and spiritualising it away. There are scriptures that literally call for justice for those who are oppressed. Why do we stifle this cry and ignore these scriptures? What I object to is maintaining the comfort and pleasing those who could make a difference in how people think. We are harming our witness to the world. Those affected by such issues and young people who may have had lived experience of these things can spot those who don't know what they are talking about and those who dont care and are making excuses from a mile away. I did not say that these matters were not spiritual issues. How we treat our brethren and those is of key concern to Jesus and and the authenticity of our faith. If you were from a community that faced the same degree of problems represented in stats about the police and judiciary, health, mortality, education, etc, would it be ok to wait for eternity and who's to say, when there are examples in the Bible that God does not want action taken so there is justice in this regard here on earth? This is wrong, whether people like to hear it or not and it should change: God created us equal, all in the image of God, not for subjugation, exploitation and oppression. Although certain people are used to having the dominant voice, this is not subject to ifs, buts and caveats characteristically raised and imposed by other human beings. Thanks. May God bless you on your journey with Him. Thanks, Brent.

[@elainehiggins713]

@@AnonyMe-qy5vz Everyone has “lived experiences”. Everyone.

[@Mikey11001]

Yes.

[@Liminalplace1]

What would it look like if God was in charge? Key focus question...many messages there

[@johntobey1558]

Social ⚖️Justice, or Social Gospel?

[@haydenharris3059]

The first guest says "what Jesus was saying", the usual religious (ill tell you what it means) spoken by seemingly intelligent people.

[@brando3342]

Sort of strayed from the title by the end didn’t they? Lol

[@bigswedenman29]

Are you seriously accusing a KZbin video of having clickbait? That doesn't happen I refuse to believe it

[@ritawing1064]

Strawman much, Tom?

[@lukeneely389]

Taking a leaf from the atheist playbook though, mate ...

[@ritawing1064]

@@lukeneely389 very childish reply

[@thespiritofhegel3487]

'Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence'. - John 18:36

[@achildofthelight4725]

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. John 17:16

[@sentientflower7891]

Ask Jerry Falwell Jr about that!

[@mr.c2485]

So…a god wants us to be nihilistic as far as our life here is concerned? I’ve always said that Christians are 99% nihilist and the 1% that’s left is relevant only as a heaven or hell are concerned. Pascal’s wager is a joke!

[@sentientflower7891]

@@mr.c2485 Christians generally care about their own personal salvation and nothing else, or rather they especially enjoy the idea that billions of people will suffer eternally in Hell.

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

So I guess in that case abuse is ok.

[@oculii1]

Chris was/is not a glorified social worker; he claimed to be the Son of God, the Truth and the Life; the one, singular conduit to a loving God. True Christians, though still flawed, seek to represent that love to the fellow man. This is the cause/effect relationship between salvation and 'works'; not the other way around.

[@gecg7393]

the church should not become anything, other than what the apostles built

[@TheLincolnrailsplitt]

Yes

[@guypotvin6943]

The short answer....yup

[@johntobey1558]

Romans 13.

[@sumthingwickedly]

I wish people would stop trying to force everyone else to bow down to their pish...live and let live and if you can't be arsed be a hermit and watch videos of your own schtick...i hope to live love and laugh again before i die but i doubt it

[@MrMvidz]

Even if I think that all those Gods are just as real as Spiderman, I can't get my head around people who claim that the Bible is the wisdom and word of the creator of the Universe, but have no problem to "evolve" those words and laws as it becomes more and more out of sync with the modern world. Cherry picking IS the Christian doctrine. Mr Wright seem to be a really good person and well studied, but still, it's just claims, faith and zero evidence. I really do respect him though, even if I disagree with the doctrine.

[@pjrodriguez386]

Didn’t watch the video just skipped straight to the comments lol. So wright was saying social justice doesn’t matter?

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

What would be more believable to you? What do you think of a explosion that put everything together perfectly (as in the big bang) instead of destroying things as explosions tend to do?

[@MrMvidz]

@@AnonyMe-qy5vz But "a God dit it" is not a better explanation. How about a humble "we do not know what happened pre-big bang"?

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

@@MrMvidz Thanks for the response and sharing your views. It's healthy to talk. It seems to me that the nature of knowledge and what counts as knowledge is the underlying question. I believe I do "know" but it is not an intellectual knowing alone because if it was, you and many others would have worked ot out already. My family are not practising Christians so it is intellectual but also a personal, spiritual conviction that the Bible is God's word followed by an acceptance. It is humbling to be teachable, to be challenged by the idea that there is a God and to admit that on some things, we were wrong. As I didn't write the Bible, so no credit goes to me! I have heard the humility argument before but since I am not God, I did not think up Christianity nor inspire the recording of the Bible, all the events in it occurred millenia before me and I believe in Someone greater than myself, I see that as inherently humbling and definitely more so than the alternatives. Thank you, MrMvidz for this exchange.

[@MrMvidz]

@@AnonyMe-qy5vz I hope that whatever path you follow, it will be good for you, thank you for your respectfulness and candor.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

There are no victims without victimisers and there can be no reconciliation (with the spirit) without acknowledgement of the crimes of the perpetrators. For the blood of the martyrs is upon assailants that do not repent! 🔥

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

It's a pity if they are too busy being offended at being asked to do better for that.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@AnonyMe-qy5vz Sine the spirit does not ask. IT DEMANDS! 💥

[@AnonyMe-qy5vz]

@@streetwisepioneers4470 Apologies. I corrected my typo. Was saying not sure why being asked to do better with how we treat people and overturn centuries of, let's just say, ungodly denigrating of others made God's image and address the affects should cause so much indignation.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@AnonyMe-qy5vz I understand. 🥲

[@ohmightywez]

The modern Catholic Church is completely woke and have utterly forgotten the importance of proclaiming Truth, even if it is uncomfortable. Lying to someone who is harming themself is NOT an act of love. You are denying them an opportunity to heal and grow.

[@eleveneleven572]

The CofE has basically been a middle class outfit, used for social cachet in the local communities. The working class were never really catered fir hence the non conformist chapels and, of course, the English Catholic recusant community comprising working class and aristocrats like the Talbots. It sprang out of Henry VIIIs codpiece, was the beneficiary of stolen wealth from village churches and monasteries. That is why it os effectively a secular organisation in drag....literally now. It's worth £billions and its now in the hands of marxists, agnostics, feminists, lgbtq, BAME activists.... ...the CofE doesn't need congregations, in fact they are a nuisance.

[@P.H.888]

😂

[@joer9156]

That's why people should become Orthodox.

[@markkjacobson]

“Woke” is another empty phrase with no real definition. “Woke” = scary other.

[@sebastianjohnen9654]

The original definition was being aware of social justice issues and racism, as well as acting on that awareness. That is not really something the right can oppose, and itself even does endorse when it suits their needs. As an example, it would be socially just that people who work for a living should get a better income than those who are dependent on welfare from the state for their income. The problem for the political right and their sponsors was that they are more often on the social injustice and racism side than on the woke side. That is why when wokeness became a major movement among corporations that were trying to brand themselves as morally good, the right started a massive campaign of rebranding the word woke and the woke movement into something negative. It seems that the political right has learned that they can not win discussion based on facts and morals, but they can win by rebranding their opposition with negative connotations and straw manning the arguments. Make all labels for the left and center look like naive evil marxism inspired antifa/socialists/communists, and you no longer have to deal with their actual arguments.

[@sebastianjohnen9654]

​@UCsLnIkGK6iiCY_CKBsbZCgw Lol. Thanks for proving my point with your answer, by doing exactly as I explained. I would certainly agree that there is a lot of virtue signaling going on when it comes to wokeness, especially when it comes to cooperations who just look good. But virtue signaling and cancel culture are different things, have their own words and definitions. Trying to conflate them to make it all look negative is all you have. Now let's look at your supposed issues that make Wokeness so evil. 1. Virtue Signaling. Even if Woke Culture was "mostly" as you say, virtue signaling, it would still be positive. Sure, it would be better if the category of virtue signalers who do nothing but signal, actually do something, than just talk about it or even fake it. But even they put pressure on society to become better, they send out a positive message that can get others to act and provide for a general cultural climate that is more aware of social issues and disposed towards doing something about it than looking away. Then there also the virtual signalers that actually put substantial money and time into helping, be it poor minority communities or some other humanitarian goal. Sure their main goal is virtue signaling but to do so they actually do something good. There are many Cooperations (perhaps as many or more than those that belong to the first category) that do this, sure they are not sacrificing anything. They get most of the money back thanks to tax credits and since they are doing it for pr and branding they can easily get an economic net plus out of it. Sure, it would be better if helping people was an actual major goal and not as too often just a side effect, but we should note that this better as with the other virtue signalers would mean more actual wokeness not less. 2. "Most". Let us look at the non-"most", since there are clearly still a significant amount of people out there who are aware of social injustice and racial issues and act upon that awareness, including even many conservatives. How is them being Woke Evil? It seems you do not have a signal argument against them, and your argument against the virtue signalers is mostly that they are not really woke or not woke enough. 3. "Socially Acceptable Bigotry" and Cancel culture. Considering that your post is basically just a (re-)labeling of woke people as "hate-filled Deplorables who are unworthy of compassion or understanding"... ah meh... It just comes off as the poor politically incorrect bigot screaming victim of his own tactics. But let's pretend that someone else who did not just reveal himself to be exactly what he's criticizing made that argument. "Socially Acceptable Bigotry" and Cancel Culture have always existed on both sides, open any school history book, and you will likely find the notorious examples "kauf nicht bei juden" or "NO DOGS, NEGROS, MEXICAN". I can bring many more examples of that from on the right. From the cancellation of anti-Trump republicans like miss Cheney, to the death threats received by those republicans in charge of certifying the Biden victory. Now, it would be cool if we could all agree that "Socially Acceptable Bigotry" and Cancel Culture are bad, except it is not that easy. Even with the terrible examples given. Firstly, I am 100% certain that we would disagree what counts as Bigotry. I mean, you could not even detect it as you made yourself an example. I strongly believe that intolerance regarding certain beliefs is actually necessary, any democracy that stops being intolerant towards its enemies beyond a general basic tolerance to afford everyone the same basic and equal rights, is going to die. I am certainly willing to die fighting for the right of anyone to say their opinion freely, even racists, fascist or right-wing nut job. Likewise, I will equally fight for the right of anyone to call out such a person (or any other person) and say their opinion about them just as freely. All those self-proclaimed politically incorrect bigots who whine about their mistreatment, especially of their right too free speech, when they are getting all their rights but are actually just whining about others who use their own rights too free speech against them, are just pathetic in my eyes. Secondly, large parts of Cancel Culture are deeply democratic(not the party, democracy) and capitalistic. Voting with their feet, as it is often called. The cancellation of miss Cheney and other republicans who did not want to bow to Trump and his lies, as revealing and pathetic as it is, is fair game. It's the illegal stuff like death threats, threats of violence, actual acts of violence as well as the denial of a publicly offered service, where the line is and should be drawn. To sum it up, most of your counterarguments just amount to the virtue signalers not actually being woke or only being woke in signaling and not in action, logical conclusion woke is actually good and more people/cooperations need to be actually woke in action. The other counterarguments are not specific to being woke, but their own issue. Issues that can be found just as much if not more on the right. In any case, by trying to rebrand being woke as virtual signaling and cancel culture, you have proven my point that the right has no arguments and relies on rebranding positive Labels by negative association and conflation of the actual meaning with the negative.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

@@sebastianjohnen9654 🎯

[@chrissingletary2876]

Guys.. The Christ of the Bible and the complete teachings of the Bible separate the value of the person from the action of sin. Christians love the sinner but hate the sin. Acceptance of everyone's sin cloaked in the false impression that love is all about acceptance is absolutely false.. stop beating around the bush and dancing around this understanding. Sin is grounds for judgement by our God and therefore requires repentance, not acceptance.

[@deniss2623]

A conversation between a heretic and an atheist.

[@georgeengland1699]

Way too woke!!

[@stunningkruger]

if Jesus is right then we're already dead so best to stop worrying & party instead

[@curiousgeorge555]

?

[@StevenDavisPhoto]

The church in England sounds like they're doing a good job. The average American church, however, not so much. American Christians (on average, not all) have a long way to go to learn how to love others.

[@curiousgeorge555]

Is this true? Why do you say that? - Church of England vs Average American church.

[@StevenDavisPhoto]

@@curiousgeorge555 american christians are super right wing on average. at least evangelicals.

[@pjrodriguez386]

American here and this is sadly true. Mixed Jesus with politics here for over decades and idk how we’re supposed to shake free now

[@markmooroolbark252]

The church of England is contemptible. They are just another lefty institution.

[@joer9156]

​@@StevenDavisPhoto go back to the year 600 and you would find that every Christian was "super right wing."

[@ianhall3822]

Jesus said " Blessed are the "poor". I have never heard a poor man say he was blessed. Next time I pass a homeless man on the street, instead of tossing him a coin ,I'll just say " Blessed are the poor", and note his reaction.

[@pantonpam8024]

Not [some] the Western poor: one can be poor in material wealth however, rich in CHRIST JESUS. Because THE LORD JESUS CHRIST Is providing for them daily. “Give us this this day our daily bread ...” Some citizens in Western societies does not even know who their neighbours are and do not care about them. You hardly find see that in poor societies.

[@godislove8038]

Ian hall- Jesus said “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:3 Meaning blessed are those who are humble enough to recognize their deep need of God, to the point that they know they need Him for every breath they take. It is clear you don’t actually read the bible, but only hear about it from other people. That’s never a good idea,

[@johnno6183]

So nt once again builds ethics on the assumption that the xn god is the creator..he seems v.sure of this..here in nz the baptist union are to afraid to even discuss this.

[@spinach-colour-joey6776]

I lost braincells listening to this

[@kingofcelts]

It's OK, you can go back to reading about Britney Spears..

[@RandomAussieGuy87]

That must be a real shame as you had so few to begin with.

[@jennifer97363]

It looked as though Murray, when not speaking, was desperately trying to keep himself awake- with the bizarrely- widened eyes. I find NTW boring as well.

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

@Jennifer L One of the greatest theologians of modern times boring?

[@jennifer97363]

@@stevenwiederholt7000 Dreadfully.

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

@@jennifer97363 How So?

[@jennifer97363]

@@stevenwiederholt7000 Everything he has to say is based on utter nonsense. I am interested in reality-based truth, always. Even as a child, who couldn’t articulate it well, Christian stories seemed just that- nonsense. I am not the sort of person who needs to believe in a hovering creator -god to make it through life. This reality is all we know for sure we have, and it is precious. Sadly, you are wasting your limited time, focused, not on the incredible beauty this existence has to offer, but on the eternal life you believe you will enjoy. Prove your anecdotal,personal experiences with the Holy Spirit are not simply thoughts generated by a yearning human imagination.

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

@@jennifer97363 I have to ask. What utter nonsense? I have a small question for you. What Happened To The Body (of Jesus)? "Sadly, you are wasting your limited time, focused, not on the incredible beauty this existence has to offer, but on the eternal life you believe you will enjoy' As for that, something I try to remind people "Stay in touch with your Inner six year old." Because God has given us this Really marvelous/magical place to live. Thing is them more we learn about the universe/life etc, the more it looks like it couldn't Just Happen by random accident. "Prove your anecdotal,personal experiences with the Holy Spirit are not simply thoughts generated by a yearning human imagination." Give evidence that they are not.

[@LJ7000]

I agree it shouldn't go woke but it definitely needs to stop obsessing about things like homosexuality, which is barely mentioned if at all in the entire New Testament and not much in the Old, and it will not draw on young people to the church if it is so easily labelled as homophobic

[@sentientflower7891]

Adam & Steve until Eve became the third wheel.

[@jennifer97363]

The christian church must stop talking about homosexuality entirely. Just because it is minimally mentioned in the bible does not then mean it is morally acceptable to pillar this group of human beings, as they most definitely are. Marriage to you is that between a man and woman- fine. Marriages continue, they are under no threat (at least not due to homosexuality). Laterally to this, what is the fear- that same- sex marriage will encourage people to *become* homosexual? Please! Or is it,because procreation is not possible, birth rates will decrease because gay men and women have taken themselves ‘off the market’ instead of condemning themselves to a lifetime of suffering - to make you more comfortable? There are also huge numbers of heterosexuals who never marry/ procreate. Should *they* be forced to do so?

[@jennifer97363]

@Nicole How *exactly* is gay marriage a threat to marriage between Christians?

[@jennifer97363]

@Nicole Secularism hasn’t pushed people out of Christianity- sovereign humans have gradually become aware that they can use their faculties to question what they had previously unquestionably believed. Formerly devout Christians,even fundamentalists, as well as clergy, have come out from under the blanket of indoctrination; which is at least partially based on church- wide admonishments not to look to extra- biblical sources for balanced perspectives. Even biblical, historical scholarship is feared, perhaps especially feared. Fear that Christian belief cannot withstand such truth,and will ultimately lead to membership loss, is fragile belief.

[@jennifer97363]

@Nicole Histrionics. Gay people cause you to lose your gathering space/ community. Now i’ve heard it all. You are deluded, seriously. You are just the sort of in-name-only Christian who gives Christianity a bad name.

[@MrAuskiwi101]

The church becomes more irrelevant everyday as humanity evolves past its need for mythology.

[@michaeldukes4108]

Good luck with your totally relativistic society.

[@lukeneely389]

You wish, my poor, embittered friend. If it really was so irrelevant, so many people wouldn't both hating it.

[@MrAuskiwi101]

@@lukeneely389 Look Lukey, 1st up I'm not, poor or embittered, lol. That just pathetic ad hominen by you. Next, you show another weak attempt at deception. Who's "hating it."? I just pointed out that churches are getting more irrelevant by the day. This is a good thing! None of your 'hate' required. Have a great day.

[@MrAuskiwi101]

@@michaeldukes4108 I never said or implied a "totally relativistic society. " Please stop deceiving yourself and others with it. Look mike, I'm sure in the future some folks will still need bible/quran gods threats. Especially those with no moral compass. That is pretty close to where we are at now.

[@leonardherring2468]

I would agree that the present 'Church' is becoming more irrelevant today, but this is the church's fault it is not caused by humanity evolving. The church is irrelevant because it has become politicized and is now seen to be just another form of political expression. However the message of the Gospel is more relevant today than ever before as it stands as a bulwark against the extreme left and right ideologies and is the only hope for the future of mankind.

[@dustyparker4806]

YES!!!! BEING “WOKE” at all is something that should not be in the church. So “too woke?” Absolutely. It’s probably the saddest thing I can think of. We as the church are not doing what we should be. We are doing quite the opposite. Being woke is opening the door for Satan and he’s absolutely having a field day with it. It pleases him that the church is probably more responsible than anyone for people entering into eternity without God. This and that and this is totally ok. Pray this prayer and you’re fine because love is love and surely he wouldn’t allow you to burn forever. Wrong. The only real way to God is through Jesus and His Word is final. I hate woke because woke is of the devil and it is not even 1% of God. Get outta here with that crap. No place in the church. It conforms to the world and we are not supposed to be of the world as a church.

[@mr.c2485]

Christianity is 99% nihilism. So why all the hoopla? According to your book, this life is but a vapor…only the afterlife is of any value in the end. What you’re talking about amounts to little more than 1% of what happens on this planet as of any significance. Remember…we are required to hate our lives on this planet with its fleshly desires and look forward to our spiritual/eternal destiny exclusively. All of this bloviation about who we are and a gods plan are little more than verbal gymnastics that detract from what our true focus is supposed to be….right? Yes, I’ve read your book. How many references to what I’ve just said would you like?

[@DS-uo5ie]

“Think on these things “!

[@brando3342]

Sounds like you really need to work on your exegesis of scripture.

[@littleredcelt]

Sounds good to me.

[@catherinesummers5057]

What’s with the anger? If you reject ‘our Book’…

[@mr.c2485]

@@catherinesummers5057 The pain and suffering that my siblings and I went through because of it are still fresh in my mind. My bad..

[@purgatoriprytania5382]

Yes.

[@billarmstrong5568]

Yes.