Here's the truth about third party grading of coins!

The truth is there are many truths and many views many of which are honest and compelling and well held but this is and always has been a contentious subject and thats what makes it fun. Here is my personal view at this time. It may change and I am open to being convinced that I am wrong.
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[@miltonwaddams3969]

I think grading older coins, very limited mintage medals, and circulating coins makes sense, but for mass-produced modern proof coins I personally prefer my coins in their OMP with the COA and everything as it was originally bought. I think this adds to the value / originality, and I usually buy these coins directly from the mint themselves. Also I cannot see why someone would want to counterfeit a coin that only came out a couple years ago, so for the time being I think owning modern proofs "raw" is a safe bet. Especially as packaging is getting nicer and more suitable for long-term storage, in 30 years I would pay more for a proof coin in its OMP than one that's just in a slab :)

[@eaglecoin1469]

my reason for grading is I choose coins that I like and I want to have them all in similar presentation. Mints tend to change packaging throughout a series and I really think it adds a bit of quality to the coins and they look more professional. I know that is my opinion and others may not have the same. but if one of my coins which is brand new comes back as PF68 then so be it I'm still happy. I will even go ahead and slab bullion coins which again some people think that is pointless but it will be in my collection and no one else's. Great video again Numi and very open to discussion.

[@Numistacker]

On a practical note for modern boxed coins, one of the reasons I grade is that each time I touch the packaging it degrades. I prefer to put the original packaging away in boxes with the coa and not touch the box at all. If I kept the coin in the box practically I would not look at it. If I slab the slabs are much more accessible without damaging the coin.

[@vasnou1975]

@@Numistacker I agree but even in the slabs we don’t fell the coin. We just have a better view. I think when it’s for collection must have them in slabs and when it’s for saving money then without

[@johnnewton4630]

Grading is on the eye of the beholder.

[@philippayne4951]

I am afraid grading coins is in the eye of the beholder is a myth. You either know how to grade correctly or not. Grading coins takes years of experience, and is a science. Far to many dealers and collectors tend to over grade their coins, and good examples of this is on ebay. This is why the slabbing companies were formed, so that you get the coin back with the correct grade. Although mistakes are sometimes made by slabbing companies, most times their grading is correct, and can be trusted in most cases.

[@colfer222]

You are correct correct John Newton and i with over 50 years of collecting and many other collectors will agree with you. Grading introduces a third party to make and control the money . i've seen many examples where these "trained gods of grading have got it completely wrong. I'm not completely against grading however because you can do well when some investors will only buy graded coins.....my opinion.

[@Puppyplay1]

Great video! You bring up many great points for future discussion. My disappointment with the grading phenomenon is that it is so often done on modern, uncirculated, never touched my human hand, coinage. During your narration(which was great) 99% of the coins in your video going out and returning from submissions were just that, modern perfect coins. Like so many things in life, it is all about personal preference, I just hate seeing so many new to this hobby being pushed in to believing that until they have given their money to NGC or PCGS, their coins are somehow of less quality. As one that travels globally, I always appreciated those regions such as Great Britain, that scoffed at the Americans grading of modern coins. I will continue to both enjoy your channel and express my opinion of the lunacy of grading modern coins! Thanks again for this video and discussion!

[@Numistacker]

+Cull Silver I am the first to admit it can be loony )) but with 60m coins graded between NGC and PCGS the market seems to like it. I think that though I use NGC a lot it really should be used judiciously not without question for everything.

[@meteoman7958]

+Cull Silver I always love your words of wisdom. I am a grader for a local coin dealer and many people bring in their slabbed coins for my opinion. These are coins they have bought, sight unseen, from ebay auctions and they are invariably over-graded examples, which people are dumping. Occasionally, I see properly graded coins and some I believe to be under-graded, but these are rare. I see slabbed common silver dollars and fifty cent pieces advertised in local auctions as "one of six finest known" appraised at ridiculously high prices, when we have similar pieces in our shop available for a little over spot. Slabbed bullion coins sell for the same prices as un-slabbed bullion coins in our shop. I love numistacker's videos, because I get to compare my grading with NGC's, but personally, because of the variability of grading standards in slabbed coins, I have no interest in getting my coins slabbed.

[@chrisrock4428]

I totally agree. I was telling my dad when I was 12 that condition is everything. He was old school and was not a fan of grading. We argued about it many times as we collected stuff together. You have a really nice collection. I'm just getting back into it. Had some health issues that I finally got resolved.

[@nathanflanery2285]

Great thoughts! Thanks for sharing a UK perspective! With regards to grading modern silver bullion coins, I see no reason in submitting them yourself unless there is something unique about the coin. Otherwise, it is MUCH cheaper to just buy it already graded. I think in addition to liquidity for reselling online, the reason people like to buy MS70 American Silver Eagles (ASEs) is that it is actually harder to get a REAL FLAWLESS MS70 ASE than you would think. The US Mint (along with dealers) treat them like junk because they are "just bullion coins." Therefore quality control is MUCH WORSE at the US Mints than others, especially compared to the Perth Mint. I would NEVER bother having a coin such as a Koala that already comes in a capsule removed to be graded. And I've NEVER seen a coin that comes encapsulated from the Perth mint with a flaw on it that is noticeable w/o magnification. But ASEs are completely different. I've seen ENTIRE ROLLS that can be NO BETTER than a 69 because the machine that put them in the tubes was misaligned and damaged EVERY COIN it put in a tube. So a TRUE MS70 ASE is probably harder to find than you would think. There is also the issue of milk spots on bullion ASEs. Although there are MANY ASEs with a label that says "MS70," MANY are worse than 69's after 10-20 years as they develop spotting, tarnish, and "toning." This is why I try to buy ASEs that are at least 10 years old but graded recently as MS70. If they haven't developed milk spots by now, they probably won't as long as you care for them. But I only buy 1 bullion ASE MS70 every year for my set, not a bunch to resell individually.

[@AlanLastufka]

I agree with so much of what you say here, and I grade everything I own for a lot of the same reasons. Just packed up another box last night to send out to NGC! Thanks for the video, it's good to know I'm not alone out here with my graded "semi-numismatic" stuff. :)

[@shawnangie1]

Fill in the blank: "Things made strictly as collectibles usually aren't very ________________." I agree with diversifying one's collection. I lean heavily on old coins with numismatic rarity, and sprinkle in here and there the more modern, mass produced pieces when catch my eye. It has been my experience that if a modern piece doesn't increase in value almost right away, then it probably never will and may even lose value. My numismatic rarities tend to increase more slowly and steadily as the years go by.

[@andyhepburn6855]

Very balanced, reasoned insight! Really appreciate this video so thank you. Will have to watch a few times as occasionally distracted by all the great pieces on show :D I suppose there are two markets in grading: one for bullion cos people don't trust each other (!) and one for older or rarer numismatic items with a conservation aspect also. Lots to ponder anyway!

[@robertw9677]

You are welcome like the sovs you sold me on i bought several 70 grade 2009 st gaudens i think will do great also like the 89 sovs just very special i bought some graded and had a couple graded i got a 69 and a 70 back from pcgs which shocked me i assumed i would get 2 70s back but never graded before so selling the 69 to buy sovs thanks for your help on sovs you teaching me a lot

[@gavinburger9435]

Nice video, very informative my friend. There are many different markets within the coin world. Some buyers want slab coins some want bullion oz. knowing what market a coin does best in takes much understanding of the market and the coin. The better all coins do the bigger the whole market grows. I see that the market place is changing and more younger buyers are starting to invest. Silver is my choice as the market factors make it the best potential profit, I tend to stay away from higher premium but avoid lower premium silver at all costs. My favorite buys where the lynx predators series mini monster box, while my favorite coin is the African Leopard 100 Cedis. I do focus on 9999 silver that has security features as the this encompasses the whole physical silver market. Buyers buying to invest to buyers needing it for producing products that need fine grade pure silver.

[@jsilverchannel]

Love those pt Britannias!! I agree with you, it's pointless in grading a lot of coins, eg. American Eagle. The lower mintage or older coins may make sense to grade. I have just enough money personally to buy raw coins, I can't justify the cost of grading coins. That's my personal view

[@RussellBury]

I do see the appeal of graded coins, ive only got 2 a PF70 moon festival panda and a 2015 PL70 Chad hippo which is quite rare but i would like to add to them as there is a pride to having the best example of a certain coin and for smaller gold coins in a graded slab makes them look far more than just a tiny coin.

[@Numistacker]

+Russell Bury you are right about smaller coins. It's more difficult to lose a slab

[@robertw9677]

I think you are right its important to know the quality af any collectibles, i collect all kind of stuff almost all are graded or not even my ancient swords are graded by japanese government value like coins directly effected

[@bigwo56]

I agree with you on the subject of grading that many or most modern coins will indeed grade high simply because of modern minting techniques. That said I personally believe that many of them despite the sheer volume will go up in value in future.

[@Numistacker]

+bigwo56 the volume of some may hold them back. A lot depends on sentiment and the volume of collectors

[@robertw9677]

I lean toward your view, on my higher value items i would like to know all are 70s now getting into sovs because of your guide i assume you would say get them graded i will be nervous after using pcgs on 2 st gaudens never opened one returns a 69 the other 70 when i get all the sovs i bought will have to decide

[@CoinsAZ]

As usual, good subject and nice unboxing. I hope you post a vid of the other half of that boxes slabbed goodies. I mostly agree with your points in the video. Where I disagree strongly is in your contention that only certain coins/medals that you think should be graded are worth grading. The reason your position doesn't hold water is because you are drawing completely arbitrary distinctions between products and mintages. For example, many semi-numismatic coins are in reality merely bullion coins with enhanced finishes. So you can't soundly argue that ASE's are not worth grading while any coin that just happens to have a lower mintage and a finish like the higher premium "reverse proof" Lunar 2s or Kooks is worth grading. And speaking of mintages, you mentioned runs as low as 500 (gold) coins being a mintage worthy of grading.....but this is a wholly arbitrary line in the sand. I could just as easily argue that 15,000 or 15 should be the line in the sand as to what qualifies as a properly low mintage. Just like you, I own a mix of raw (many in OMP) and slabbed collector coins and medals. I have a couple dozen slabbed bullion ASE's and probably just as many billion Silver Maple Leafs (SML). In my view, the reason I own these is not because they are unique or ultra rare examples but rather I enjoy looking at a particular interesting or widely recognized design in all it's beauty without scratches, dings, and scuffs. Most bullion ASE's and SML's are released by the respective mints in fairly crappy condition. I can go through several unopened tubes of 20 before finding a single one that appears to be a flawless example. The vast majority of ASE's and SML's are NOT sent in for grading. Of the one's sent in, in most cases, only the best of the best (thought to be flawless) are actually sent in for grading. So the TPG is getting only the best of the best examples in most cases....a far cry from just randomly selected coins. Even if a Monster Box full is sent in, it's long been reported by PCGS that by the numbers on the outside of the Monster Box, they can already tell if the coins within are of higher general quality than Monster Boxes with different numbers. Finally, I've pulled back lately from buying many of the modern silver coins that I used to like to buy but the fact that there are many bullion ASE's being slabbed and sold means that the market is in demand for them even though I may not be so much any more. I have no idea why others might want to buy a 2014 MS70 ASE or MS69 SML but I know why I did and enjoy, every once in a while, looking at an interesting coin design in as flawless as a condition as there exists for me to personally own. Keep up the good work with your videos.

[@Numistacker]

You raise some very good points about what is worth grading. Many of the coins I have chosen to grade have small populations only because others dont think of them as worthy of grading. I love to grade BU Gold Libertads but others dont seem to. I am happy about that as they are hell to keep in good condition and in 10 years lots of the small mintage will be ungradeable. But I graded proof Krugers mintage 15000. I graded privy Britannias mintage 120,000. With some modern coins that are bullion like queens beasts gold and silver I am happy to grade some because those that get selected for grading will generally be the best and its a good way to ensure quality. Modern coins post say 1950 are totally contrived and there is a case for saying none deserve grading but if a coin does not deserve grading, does it deserve to be purchased, treasured or collected. Though I am cynical I do enjoy grading coins, I find it somehow therapeutic and enjoy the silly game of selecting and then grading and seeing the results. Its a big kids game but ultimately that is pretty much what it is.

[@CoinsAZ]

I have purchased only very small quantities of raw BU ASE and BU CSML and I've never sent a single one in for grading because the cost to grade and the risk it won't come back as high a grade as I think it is, is not worth it to me. I have purchased as many already slabbed high grade BU ASE and BU CSML because I do want to occasionally marvel at a timeless classic silver BU coin in as flawless a condition I can afford (some of the early BU coins in the highest grades are a lot of money) because why pay for a modern coin for the purpose of enjoying all the details of its design when that coin has scratches and nicks....I can't enjoy it much that way. So yes, I don't have a problem paying for certain high grade slabbed bullion. Both ASE and CML designs are, in my view, appealing designs. There are bullion coins that have unappealing designs in my view and I would not buy them slabbed or otherwise because I mainly purchase coins for the design or aesthetic appeal. When I put my purist stacker hat on and look to only accumulate ounces of silver, I generally never buy coins because the premiums are higher than generic bars meaning if buying coins for stacking, I'd be throwing money out the window needlessly. I did pick up a 1 oz Au BU Libertad in MS70 from MCM. That I can marvel at a slabbed and protected flawless timeless wonderful coin design (regardless if it's a bullion coin) is appreciated by me - when I have my coin collector hat on...which is a lot more often these days than having my purist stacker hat on.

[@DavidAnderson-vg6pc]

I agree. Grading does give an assurance and can only be good for the long term preservation of the coin. Thanks for sharing your own personal thoughts. It can only help improve the quality of coins overall from the mints as we demand the very highest standards.

[@DavidAnderson-vg6pc]

Interesting; I noticed how "old" Proof coins start to look old sometimes in OMP. I'd have thought that slabs would have been airtight; maybe depends on coins handling prior to slabbing?

[@delsakelly1456]

Looks perfect , why go into grading? I'm impressed by your collections.

[@667hodge]

I've been watching your channel for a few years now,and I believe the 1st comment I ever made was,Not every coin has to be graded.In retrospect,it's your $,if you want to buy/grade every coin,do it.I'm small time,I dont own any slabbed coins,BUT,if I ever did,I think I've learned a few things.

[@667hodge]

I have a few vids up,critique me,lol

[@tforest9841]

I learned so much from you sir, thanks for your wisdom!

[@oleg296]

Im in Australia!

[@britishnumismatists3910]

Lovely coins in this video, I won't be grading my silver proof Britannia collection, but in the future I do hope to send you a few coins you may have never expected to see, nothing special but would make sense to see them graded as it will be a first. When the time comes I'll give you my backstory to why I would love for these three coins to be graded. have a great day Numistacker

[@robertw9677]

Wow ngc loves you thanks for this a wonder about this all the time i had a few coins by pcgs and didnt go great i may try ngc

[@nathanflanery2285]

What do people NOT in the US think about having the 1oz Silver Proof Krugerrands graded? Especially 2019-present for which only 20,000 have been minted every year? Or would you prefer original mint packaging? If you would like the 1oz Proof Silver Krugerrands graded, would you prefer NGC or PCGS using their traditional brown and blue labels, respectively? Would you prefer the PCGS "Gold Shield" designation and label with the official online image of the coin available for all to see?

[@eganzale]

Thanx for your honesty bro, keep doing your thing, good video!

[@Numistacker]

eganzale thanks for watching and I very much appreciate the comment.

[@kellystout8187]

I like graded coins even if damaged because I know they are genuine by the graders

[@tinaliebe5118]

Thanks ❤it

[@rickmelin4926]

here's a little hint, use 3m blue painter's tape in the packaging it peels off with no residue no matter how long it's left on.

[@TheAvenstar]

Such ambivalence! Grading can also be a source of mischief ...

[@bigwo56]

Sir, you absolutely have the best job in the World! Those are the most beautiful coins I've ever seen. The Soverigns, the proof 2 Pounds, all of them!

[@Numistacker]

+bigwo56 I have been lucky and able to showcase some beautiful coins

[@robertw9677]

As you say grading protects and sometimes increases value, I only sent one submission to ngc so I not a great reference as you are I found ngc pricing way too high I averaged $60 a coin and despite using ncs took 9weeks to get back so my experience poor

[@santiagoaguilar6241]

New Subscriber: Greetings from the United States. I find your videos informative.

[@markswiecichowski4848]

Grading for authenticity and quality makes sense (you've been saved from a few fakes in previous videos). To me where it falls apart is when people are just chasing the grade, trying to flip coins etc. Takes the fun out of collecting.

[@Numistacker]

+Mark Swiecichowski when it becomes only about the grade it can become a bit silly

[@caseykeener4022]

I think I have been a sheep for the past two years. I just started, and no one told me what grading was really about, so my brain said, grade everything you want to preserve. If it’s new and perfect, keep it that way. Some of the coins I have graded I lost a bunch of value. And will probably never get my money back. Now I’m being a little smarter and I stopped all that. I wish I new better in the beginning but at least I know now. I would hazard to guess I wasted about $400 - $500.00. 🤢🤮 lol. And it’s still hard not to follow everyone. Drives me nuts. So, now that I’m learning though I’m beginning to understand grading. Just happy I caught on before I spent thousands.

[@Numistacker]

I learned the same lesson. Grading is not for every coin. People have different reasons for grading but if you grade coins with too low a value you can lose financially. Choose coins carefully that will benefit and conserve where needed. Try to exclude cleaned or damaged coins from grading

[@robertw9677]

Update and a last question i bought a first date sov vs your advice close to price you suggested to me paid 770 pounds a bit above target you gave me same seller has a 2002 5 pound sov asking 1600 pounds does that sound like a good price to you cant thank enough for your advice thanks

[@Numistacker]

Robert Walterman you need to check whether the 2002 five Sov is BU or proof. Is it possible to pick up bullion versions of the five sovereign piece for close to spot for non special years. Always check actual sales price records to work out whether you are paying the correct price.

[@SaintOsburh]

I think you made a lot of great points :)

[@Numistacker]

+Soozie Snake thanks it's a debate with lots of angles

[@goldsilvercoinplanet1499]

As always a very interesting and nice video.

[@Numistacker]

+Gold & Silver Coin Planet thanks very much

[@marthyatt561]

I've found that many Graded coins are selling at near the same prices as raw coins. This is especially true on Pre 1933 American Gold Coins.

[@philippayne4951]

I am glad you think that. I have found the opposite. Graded coins tend to go through the roof, and many times over priced. All this slabbing on old coins, will mean that raw coins will one day not be found, because they will all be slabbed, and double the price. This of course will mean, that collecting coins will be out of the reach of many new collectors.

[@mickeysummers238]

awsome boxes

[@gs-nt6nf]

What about QA Check?

[@chrisford9764]

America has a 150 million coin collectors.

[@djurgens76]

I’m definitely a fan of graded coins. I love the look of the slabs and I trust the grades. However I think the MAC stickers are total BS

[@TheAvenstar]

Why NGC ? Why not PCGS or ANACS ? There must be a reason ...

[@Numistacker]

Only NGC and PCGS are widely accepted and I arrived at NGC first. Take a look at some more recent videos

[@NoneNone-rj6bs]

In my opinion the reason why people are in the coin collecting hobby or investing is because they feel that they want a return on their investment. Like for instance how people do coin roll hunts. Myself included, or how they're stacking up precious metals.

[@magumba1000]

Trying to add value via grading...your choice but remember that when the effluent hits the air mover your graded silver or gold coin will be worth only spot if you are lucky and also remember ....there are no pockets in a shroud

[@chakatalee]

These grading companies are all a joke. They work as one with different name. Do you all read the fine print. They all charge a different price and some you even need to be a member to get it graded...lol. the funny part when you submit your coin in you have to fill out all these unnecessary questions cause when sending in a coin to get graded, shouldn't they do all the necessary to grade your coin and not charge you for different variables. Grading, variety, etc...have their own price plus you have to buy insurance. What a joke to me. Its pretty much you do your own research and tell them im paying you to agree with your own finding. Run away people. I have alot of circulation penny that are perfect conditions with DDO/DDR and have sent pictures to these so call free quotes and they say its only worth its value...lol and what i have is exactly what they show. I believe this is all a hype only to benefit them.

[@robertw9677]

Sorry meant strike of the day coin

[@matta5498]

I'm only going to spend money on graded coins if the particular coin is often faked.

[@Car1Sagan]

Background noise sounds like you're driving in your Jaguar.

[@robertw9677]

You sold me on sovereigns i am in usa these like the 2009 sr gaudens are just special

[@Numistacker]

+Robert Walterman thanks for reminding me about the 2009 still on my list

[@airmacful]

When do you start thinking a coin isn't a modern one anymore? I guess it would be an opinion thing, but I am interested in yours

[@ChaplainDaveSparks]

I love buying graded coins, but have never sent a coin in myself for grading. In fact, I seldom buy UNgraded coins, unless I find an exceptionally good price, or am buying direct from the mint. What I DETEST are some of the new-ish gimmicks, such as autographed labels, "early releases", "first strike", etc. Those ARE buying the holder and not the coin. I *MIGHT* be tempted to buy a "pedigree" coin at a premium, such as "Redfield" collection coins, etc. But, AFAIC, buying anything in a label/holder that can't be determined from the coin itself is a different sort of "collectible" and not pure numismatics. For example, "implied mint marks" on US silver eagles: monster boxes of ASEs with straps that indicate they came from a certain mint but no mint mark on the coin itself. To me, that has marginal value from a numismatic standpoint. BTW, I see that "original government packaging" is becoming a sort of "collectible" all by itself ... maybe. I see people that buy coins directly from the mint, presumably send them off to be graded, then sell the original packaging (minus the coin itself) on eBay! I don't know how many of those listings actually sell, or what the REAL market is for them, but I'm not interested, personally. What's the point of a "certificate of authenticity" when you can buy them without the coin? What does such a certificate actually CERTIFY?

[@fencebennet1862]

Sound quality is trash

[@Numistacker]

Fence Bennet it’s an old video