Why are Chaos marines Stronger yet Weaker than normal Astartes?

[@kaneslives]

Logistics...logistics win wars. The forces of Chaos are clearly lacking in that. I mean look at the Death Guards invasion of Tau space. Ya for the Tau it was a horror show at first but once they started effectively fighting back they stomped them back to the warp.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

I agree, Robute. Logistics win. Rituals and sacrifice can't beat rivets and ceramite. Also the Tau are completely cooked and don't even know it, am looking forward to The Second Rise of Men of Iron. Will be fun to say told ya so.

[@Tiku-]

That and the warp fuckery barely have little affects on them so they’re basically an entire species of semi-blank-sort-of-kinda.

[@lthudgins]

The Iron warriors are all about logistics 😂

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

@@lthudgins Ultramar: Center of a micro empire that not only tries its best to uplift a species, does this while serving as a backbone for a military force. Medrengard: Daemonculaba, simple as. Efficiency, while important to logistics, is not the same.

[@highlandsprings5752]

They can create anything they want from the warp, guns, armor, food, teddy bears, toilet paper, ammunition, and all war machines both mechanical and democratic. All dropped off right above the planet, if it’s a logistical war then Chaos wins.

[@Warlock786]

Chaos Marines are not advancing technologically. I agree neither was the Imperium till the Primaris were created. Also I totally agree with how powerful some Thousand Sons sorcerers are. Their feats are uncanny and anyone beating them in battle is simply bad writing. The only ones who stand a chance are Grey Knights that also only to a degree. Average Thousand Son sorcerers are probably as strong as a Chief Librarian of any CHapter with the exception of Mephiston.

[@dubstepXpower]

Agreed. And hated how cartoonishly evil they were portrayed in space marine 2.

[@ridhoojozz694]

their terminator can sprint too😮

[@Warlock786]

@@dubstepXpower Precisely !!! Its ridiculous. They have, even as a traitor legion, been far more honourable and noble than many loyalist legions.

[@ravanpee1325]

Dark Mechanicum makes progress with Demon Engines

[@Warlock786]

@@ravanpee1325 I agree that Traitor legions are enhancing with making deals with demons and the warp.

[@grimreminder5038]

Loyalists: Focused on team work and tactical superiority Chaos: Focused on personal honor/power, all else are mere stepping stones. Or Tzeentch just interferes because he probably knows if humanity goes, his favorite playthings go too since his biggest joy is pulling the rug out from acquaintances and foes alike. Chaos may have individual power, but there will always be more stacked against them.

[@MR.LMR1996]

Logistics and cohesion win wars. Chaos Space Marines maybe stronger on an individual level compared to Loyalist Space Marines. But your average Chaos Warband is a lot less cohesive and lack the Logistics to replenish their loses like the Loyalist Chapters. That and Loyalist Chapters tend to be better equipped- going back to their better logistics. Loyalist Chapters have the industrial backing needed to make and repair their gear better, whilst Chaos Warbands need to make due with either outdated or stolen wargear.

[@eyohboy455]

How does a primaris compare to them?

[@MR.LMR1996]

@eyohboy455 Lack of experience. At least when Primaris Marines were first introduced to the Imperium. In spite of being superior to their Firstborn counterparts, they had a tendency to die a lot more frequently since most early Primaris Marines were fresh-faced recruits who barely had any combat experience before their augmentations. This problem was something that solved itself as they started to become more commonplace in the following 100+ years. From Firstborn Veterans like Calgar or Titus going through the Primaris Rubricon, many of the original Primaris Marines that survived the Indomitus Crusade managing to adapt and overcome the issues and mistakes that caused them to suffer from their earlier high casualty rates, to the fact that Primaris Marines pretty much began to replace their original counterparts in the future generations of newer recruits since a vast majority of Loyalist Chapters were given access to the technology needed to make them.

[@johncasamassa2840]

Personally, I really wish the writers would introduce more powerful relics that loyalists could use against their chaos counterparts. I hate the fact that chaos space marines are portrayed as having so much power without any real exploitable weaknesses.

[@dubstepXpower]

Yet chaos space marines generally end up losing.

[@johncasamassa2840]

@dubstepXpower Yeah, but in most of the novels I've been listening to lately, they always seem to do their losing off screen. On screen, they usually achieve their objectives.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

But that is because chaos is the definition of a twin bladed sword. Yeah, those pacts and boons make you immensely powerful but also makes one very easily distracted and manipulated, sometimes horribly so as with fleshchange. It's real easy to overlook the Krieger walking up to you with that shovel in his hands when you are too lost in the sauce laughing and dancing your god's war song because you are a flower in the garden of your beauty's creator, or some prosaic easily shoveled-to-death hogwash.

[@V.B.Squire]

​@@dubstepXpowerfrom a certain (loyalist) point of view

[@silentsorrowbane]

Bro. Chaos blessed relics is all heretics have because their wargear is still heresy era stuff for the most part while loyalists got Primaris upgrades as well as new goodies all the time. Chaos doesn't have many of the same vehicles. They don't even have apothecaries on the tabletop. And you want to have equality when it comes to relics, even though they literally make pacts with dark gods? Come on man xD

[@PaulieWalnuts1964]

Literally just depends who's the named character.

[@gigglehurtz3167]

well, most of the chaos ones are bat shit cray cray so that never helps

[@etokun1]

Mental health issues lol

[@Tiku-]

Wdym? Fulgrim still seems like a nice guy, he even made a painting of himself. That’s how much spare time he has to committing in arts. I sure do like him very much, I really hope his soul isnt lost to a demon or something like Angron did.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

@@Tiku- And he was such a good bro to Manus he cloned him HUNDREDS of times after he was tragically murdered just to make sure he got his bro back perfectly I mean it's admittedly still a work in progress, but that's brotherly love if ever I heard about it.

[@AncientRylanor69]

*Brother let me tell you a joke there was ones 2 traitor space marines walking across a world when they spotted in the distance a pair of loyalest Astartes so the 2 traitors fled as the 2 loyalist gave pursuit.* *Will they were running 1 of the traitors said to the other we are armed with superior war gear of ancient provenance, we have millennia more combat experience then they & we are far mightier empowered as we are with many dread gifts of Chaos, so why are WE running from THEM?, why do we not slay them?* *The other traitor looked him in the eyes with fear on his face & replied......Because, THEY, are, TOGETHER!!* *Those Who betray others, betray only themselves!* *=][=*

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

This sounds exactly like a joke Rylanor would ponderously bellow to his virus bomb companion that he has named Wilsonius as he awaits Fulgrim. I kneel to your humors.

[@JW-ln1vh]

I think there are several reasons. First off all, other than luna wolves, it is the "weaker legions " that turned traitor. Not to mention other than horus and magnus the red, it is also the weaker primarchs that got corrupted. Next they are not really advancing in tech.. have lesser supplies. Not to mention they have no access to the primaris. There are more reasons lower quality of geneseed, lower quality recruits, training, bad logistics and etc. But boy tho they have thicc plot armor. SM chapters that specialize in sm to sm combat like minotaurs, space wolves, space sharks, Blood angels and the strongest chapter of all, the GREY KNIGHTS will absolutely body chaos space marines. How the traitors are still thriving is beyond me.

[@Dubs123]

its down to the fact that CSM are "villains" in stories and whatnot, they are something to over come. Loyalist are given "plot armour" so that they win, if it came down to just a battle CSM would win, considering the blessings the dark gods give their followers. Which is why you see in the books that chaos wins off screen. why would black library simply build up a character only to kill them right away. Like the daemon primarchs, they should be insanely powerful, but yet their loyalist brothers always some how defeat them, the daemon primarch can just come back while the loyalists couldn't, I would expect Angron to completely destroy the lion now, but I knew even without reading the book when the lion returns he would win because why would u kill off an important character as soon as they return.

[@ironmangx-ro8mt]

while, plot armour Is a thing. It does make sense why a lot of the victories for the loyalists against chaos. I mean look at the battle of calth in know no fear. The word bearers had the ultramarines dead to rights, but the reason why they're lost was because of their own arrogance and instead of fighting to win, they will fighting ito sacrifice. Also, chaos don't make for the most stable recruitment in resupply.

[@Dicer3330]

Fulgrim killed roboute, (more like incapacitated) and he came back.

[@huntermad5668]

Angron was unstoppable during the Siege is because of the CARNAGE.

[@trevorpaar]

Soldiers vs Warriors that’s why we have professional soldiers today

[@izzulakmal8738]

who would've thought. Chaos's greatest weakness, is lack of order

[@iloveplayingpr]

I'm surprised most of them haven't gone extinct at this point.

[@Bio_dub465]

Yea like the world eaters should not exist

[@Lawgamer411]

Does anybody have the links to the animations he was showing? Those sfm ones looked so sick 😭

[@HexaDecimus]

Are iron warrioirs not considred chaos space marines?

[@Casboof]

They are. Night Lords and Iron Warriors just don’t give themselves fully to chaos like some other legions did

[@MrFiremagnet]

SMs are good at everything but perfect at nothing. CSM feel like minmaxed version of SM - they don't have quite a few things that make SM good in exchange for being able to be great at something. Chaos marks really make then more specialized instead of generalistic.

[@flashnick01]

Whats the cinematic from in the beginning?

[@coletam]

Death of Hope fan made animation

[@flashnick01]

@@coletam you da best

[@Purpura_Committatus_18_08]

A lot of them are "Veterans of the Long War" or "Slave Wars" later on. They are on average stronger because they are more experienced than loyalist astartes but because they are Chaos they are ofcourse chaotic disorganized. Loyalist Marines are more disciplined and have access to more supplies unlike Chaos Space Marines Warbands which have to scavenge for most of supplies or are doing everything possible to keep their machines operational. They are quite literally armed in weapons they had during the horus heresy. (Which are warbands and not some organized legions. Legions like Black Legion or Word Bearers are rarity among the archtraitor forces). Loyalist forcess also on average have better command structure that is capable of commanding forcess. Both In Astartes and in the Guard or PDF. While Chaos equivalents are under the command of different overlords that have to keep check on not only their loyalist or xenos enemies but also keep an eyes on their underlings. It is true both in Chaos Space Marines warbands and traitor guard but on average Traitor Guard do have much more enduring military command structure.

[@patrickwilliams997]

The 2nd dimension lore is great! However as soon as you REALLY get into it, PLOT ARMOUR. PLOT ARMOUR EVERYWHERE.

[@nutbug445]

To be fair, aside from the table top games, everything is pre-rigged for some one to win.

[@hjluke4807]

Real strongest is a named ultramarine without helmet.

[@TheGantus]

There are only few veterans of the Horus Heresy left. A lot of them are just criminals, Kids from various planets, implanted various Gene seed and inferior training. CSM are loosing the Legion specific traits, because of that. Also the CSM are Not fighting for 10k years, because the time runs different in the Eye of Terror.

[@arciebaric3067]

The word "chaos" refers to a state of disorder, confusion, disorganization, and mayhem, among other things.

[@dubstepXpower]

Arnt they vastly outnumbered since most cant recruit anymore other than rubrik marines which tzeentch jufg sends their souls back?

[@Lefreemanyt]

No they make new csm, fabius bile or generic vat labs

[@NovaPrime2285]

BECAUSE, THE, EMPEROR, PROTECTS!

[@DrixIngara]

It always seemed like a plot hole to me that in theory they should be much stronger than a normal space marine since they have a lot of extra power, but in practice they are always equal. Now we can say that it is solved by all loyal marines being primaris

[@lopesj6670]

Tbh it seems the great crusade had a lot of kids just forced into it liek nassir amit who was a confirmed mutant and now they have a lot more barriers to entry also considering the 1000 battle brother cap

[@jonathanzentelin2815]

For 10 millenias, chaos, and therefore, chaos marines lost. To the imperial guard and the pdf. And the biggest treats, outside of plot armor, are traitorous guards and pdf. More than a decade ago, GW organized a campaign in its stores, to decide the fate of a dark crusade. I was there with my Blood Angels. We, loyalists, wiped the floor with them. It was not even funny. Not even a match. It was like fighting puppies with shotguns. GW was not happy and created the 13th dark crusade BS.

[@roytorres4714]

What people forgets is that everyone (besides a few favorites or actually immortal characters) is cannon fodder, for no matter how strong armies are the weaponry is sbove them. The book like to make everything more dramatic but the reslity of war stays the same the weapon who hit first or harder win.

[@dominus5960]

I'm just going to say what we're all really thinking because the plot demands it 😅

[@SkyFly19853]

Noise and Plague Marines are the best.

[@rezanaseri7494]

Is the full power of a chaos marine manifest in reality?

[@FAbasi0I]

Hello brothers new to the franchise i am not interested in the minis and the board games just the lore So please guide me as to where to start reading and if there are any audio books available as i dont like reading much(please advice me on where to read like the website app etc and the books itself ) Thanks GLORY TO THE GOD EMPEROR

[@famalam943]

Stronger because lore, weaker because plot.

[@ravanpee1325]

Plot armour

[@tengr6068]

plot armor. thats why.

[@TheLilKarma]

Well chaos marines often fight for themself, and will backstab anyone else, or only enjoy murder etc. They dont fight for an collective purpose or others. So they will always lose. Just hope they lose even harder soon

[@thagoodstuff777]

Primaris upgrades and newer armor

[@ShaneLitterini]

Loyalist cope. Still salty over cadia, eh?

[@antodiyo7523]

Ave imperator ! Cadia stand 🎉

[@seedbutu9605]

​@@antodiyo7523 praise daddy khorne

[@Муня-ж7з]

@@antodiyo7523 even more than that it doesnt stand its flying, you know, in chunks

[@antodiyo7523]

@@seedbutu9605 Ave imperator Hydra dominatus

[@ShaneLitterini]

@@antodiyo7523 nope. Cadia go boom. Jajahhahahahaha

[@aldrixlevy228]

Stop it with the ai slop

[@Beneficiis]

Both. They are just different. Chaos space marines are less organized than Astartes. They lack logistic chain too. At the same time they are some of the most experienced warriors, and blessed by chaos too. Their structure is often much more flexible. They function completely differently though. Chaos space marines are fighting in more irregular capacity as raiders and mercenaries for Chaos armies. Their numbers are never enough to sustain prolonged campaigns. You will never see fight where entire chapter fights similar number of Chaos space marines. It will be squads, warbands of puny size from like 50 warriors to maybe 200 and hordes of heretics or warp entities on Chaos size. Never Chaos space marines alone, there just normally isn't enough of them. With maybe notable exception of Red Corsairs, or during Black Crusades. But even then elements will act with much less coordination. While Space Marine Chapter can sustain itself and fight on it's own, having organic void transport, armor, logistics... To bring real world example - it's like you taking ranger regiment with all it's gear, equipment and logistics to fight retired special forces members who banded together after going AWOL 20 years ago with their gear and whatever supplies they could grab. It just doesn't work for Chaos Space Marines. So normally you'd have like couple dozen of them organizing chaos horde. So imagine these retired special forces joining a terrorist organization like ISIS and organizing, commanding it's combat elements.

[@dwighttibe6014]

the astartes are designed to be the predators, and the traitors just became the toys of their own prey.

[@ravanpee1325]

Named character always win

[@NurseAmamiya]

I think chaos marines are only strong in looks of armor and weapon designs, but weaker in combat because they've stagnant due to their devotion on their chosen chaos god