NWC INS Lecture Series -- Lecture 2 "Who Lost the Vietnam War?"

The U.S. Naval War College is pleased to host the second lecture in this academic year's "Issues in National Security" lecture series.
Join Professor Sally Paine who will speak about " Who Lost the Vietnam War?".
From Professor Paine: The Vietnam War was an insurgency nested within a regional war nested within an overarching Cold War. Operationally North Vietnam defeated South Vietnam in the regional war. For the United States, however, Vietnam was a hot theater of the global Cold War that it ultimately won. The lecture explains how the Vietnam War contributed to this outcome by undermining the Sino-Soviet Alliance.
Sarah C. M. Paine is William S. Sims University Professor of History and Grand Strategy in the Strategy & Policy Department of the U.S. Naval War College. Nine years of research in Australia, China, Japan, Russia, and Taiwan form the basis for her publications: The Japanese Empire (Cambridge, 2017); Wars for Asia, 1911-1949 (Cambridge, 2012, Gelber prize longlist; Leopold Prize and PROSE award for European & World History), The Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895 (Cambridge, 2003), and Imperial Rivals: China, Russia, and Their Disputed Frontier (M. E. Sharpe, 1996, Jelavich prize). She has also written: Nation Building, State Building, and Economic Development (edited, M.E. Sharpe, 2010); Modern China: Continuity and Change 1644 to the Present, 2nd ed. (co-author with Bruce A. Elleman, Rowman & Littlefield, 2019); and five naval books: Naval Blockades and Seapower: Strategies and Counter-Strategies 1805-2005, Naval Coalition Warfare: From the Napoleonic War to Operation Iraqi Freedom, Naval Power and Expeditionary Warfare: Peripheral Campaigns and New Theaters of Naval Warfare, Commerce Raiding: Historical Case Studies, 1755-2009, and Navies and Soft Power: Historical Case Studies of Naval Power and the Nonuse of Military Force (all co-edited with Bruce A. Elleman, Routledge, 2006-11; Naval War College Press 2014-15). Most recently she co-edited with Andrea J. Dew and Marc A. Genest, From Quills to Tweets: How America Communicates about War and Revolution (Georgetown University Press, 2019). Her degrees include: B.A. Latin American Studies, Harvard University; M.I.A. Columbia University School for International and Public Affairs; certificates from both the East Asian and Russian Institutes; M.A. Russian, Middlebury College; and Ph.D. history, Columbia University.
The Family Discussion Group follows the formal lecture in order to provide information to the community on specific programs and services available here in Newport.
About the Lecture Series
ISSUES IN NATIONAL SECURITY (INS) LECTURES are designed to offer scholarly lectures to the spouses, partners, and significant others of our students; military/civilian employees assigned to the Naval War College and Naval Station Newport and its tenant activities, International Sponsors, Foundation members, and local-area retirees or active/reserve personnel.

[@bobk1845]

With brains like this around how do we wind up with presidential candidates like the ones we got?? Please.

[@skullsaintdead]

Probably, a lack of education around the importance of democracy & decreasing faith in our institutions of power, in part because it benefits those on the right, who are in favour of small-govt, and the influence of state propaganda, bringing down our faith in democracy by buying our politicians (Russia, China etc, Mr Orange and his mouthpieces). So, the majority of people drawn to power in the US are already wealthy, and that is their primary quality. Not intellect, or wisdom, as it might be more so in less commercalised parliamentary democracies (e.g. Australia, NZ, Nordics). The more people see the rot, the more they hate it, don't vote, don't get involved, it gets more polarised, pollies get worse, we get worse outcomes. We're all responsible and we can fix it: get money out of politics, America.

[@Thought_Processing_]

Because it’s in the interest of the people who fund campaigns that people who are smart are not in power as they would look at the situation and say okay we need to tax, regulate and in some cases prosecute the rich.

[@ChrisPierreBacon]

I could listen to Dr. Paine all day long.

[@user-by5zt6ju4p]

Me as well

[@GrubyTolek]

Likewise

[@G-BogdanMMI]

me too !!

[@gianniformica8235]

Stumbled on her now I devour everything... She's so great.

[@surogat33]

same here

[@Traisas]

just discovered. third lecture today 👍

[@tsung1029]

I love how she casually tossed out a critical concept in Sun Tsu like this is something everyone should know.

[@MrVinni123]

Dr. Paine is American excellence. She needs to be everywhere, explaining everything.

[@newtonw1008]

Competency drift..she knows her area of competence very well. Maybe not others

[@bboomermike2126]

I am writing this in my wife's living room in District 12 Saigon. I did 2 tours in Vietnam in the "Delta" area so I know some thing about the difference in Vietnam from 50+ years ago and now. It looks to me that communism failed on an economic level. It seems to me that the economy is much more capitalistic than communist. Not far from my wife's house is a new multi story building with a sign saying "California Fitness Center of Saigon. Saigon feels more like LA than Branson MO.

[@freddecker2407]

As much as I have heard about the Vietnam War in my lifetime, (I was born in 1960), this lecture provides much new information I wasn't previously aware of. Thank you!

[@pagarb]

This is he most brilliant, insightful and honest presentation on the strategy and tactics at the highest level of this war. She puts into a clear context the dynamics behind it all, she's not only brilliant but also very courageous in her comments and has no compunction about "saying it as it was". This is in sharp contrast to all the commentaries intended is justify an unjustifiable position by trying to put a "nice face" mask on a pretty rotten corpse.and pretend it was a noble lost cause, like the sacrifice the Spartans made at Thermopylae. This wasn't an existential threat to the West, it was a exercise in grand and not very honest politicizing.

[@jackharle1251]

LBJ lost the Vietnam war after he had JFK assassinated. Kennedy stated Johnson would not be his 2nd term VP. Suddenly JFK was gone and the Texas Hillbilly put us fulltime into Vietnam.

[@alex-ff1mp]

it was an existential threat and is still now. Is about the liberty - ideas, speak and free trade. All this is translating in reducing the famine and reducing the percentage of poor people in the world.

[@marcob.7801]

I think you are deluded by this disingenuous folderol! Nothing more than an extension of "there is a red under every bed" so that the greedy, fat cat, corrupt legislature AND military industrial complex could indulge profits!

[@dougearnest7590]

5:25 -- you're welcome

[@ianshaver8954]

I am indeed welcome.

[@chef-kiss]

Thnx

[@Ben942K]

First comment I was looking for 😭.

[@jayo3074]

Thanks

[@cmm30]

That completely changed my view of the Vietnam War on several aspects. Thank you for making this wonderful lecture available.

[@Toto-no3mv]

Two comments: First, Paine's central theme here is that it didn't really matter if we (US) won or lost militarily in Vietnam, we won if we weakened the USSR by causing problems in the Soviet-China alliance, and forcing the USSR to spend beyond their means. That is actually believeable because after the war we pretty much forgot about SE Asia, and the military defeat had very little effect geostrategically. But who formulated this cold and cynical strategy? Johnson wanted very much to win the war itself, and from what I have read his cabinet was also motivated by patriotism and idealism, and really started to have doubts when they realized the horrendous costs. Was it a Nixon/Kissinger thing? Second, the main effect of the war for the US, to which the geostrategic planners seemed completely oblivious, was domestic and cultural in nature. It needlessly split the country and created an entire generation cynical of government, and I think that has greatly weakened our democracy. I grew up during the war, and it has taken me years of living abroad to truly appreciate the blessings of the American system.

[@Mikethemerciless11]

Well, the good news is that there isn't such a thing as democracy or republics. So there was nothing to weaken, except the myth of democracy.

[@dominicpacoe5439]

Great points

[@MrHeavy466]

@@Mikethemerciless11 Why do you think democracies and republics don't exist?

[@Mikethemerciless11]

@@MrHeavy466 For countless reasons, all of which are obvious. For one, you cannot independently verify the results of any election. Even if government would let you, you probably would not be able to prove how anyone voted unless you took the time to ask people. Secondly, government doesn't act on whatever voters want. It doesn't care. It often will enact anything that voters have absolutely no say about, and such laws are permanent, and inviolable. In the US, voters have absolutely zero say about taxes. You'd think that's something that's pretty important for voters to be locked out of. The masters of the country would say, "No, see, you voted, or at least your great-great-grandparents did for the 16th Amendment." Nobody ever voted for that, except a very few, select people. Nobody voted for anything like Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, or Obamacare, all of which are unconstitutional (but the Constitution is, also, a fraud, so there's that), and citizens cannot opt out. How do you change a law? Well, there's how Civics 101 teaches, and then there's how the Oligarchs do it, which they've been doing since well before the Revolution (which most Americans didn't want either). All they do is bribe public officials, through intermediaries of course. Consider that there is no minimum number of voters necessary to certify any election (if they were independently verifiable to begin with). What do you think would happen if, in this upcoming election, less than 50% of the electorate voted? Nothing. In 1788, only 1.7% of the electorate voted, the majority of which elected electors who voted for George Washington. Gee, that looks like the tyranny of the involved to me. Did we vote for any of the wars we went into? At least the Athenians voted to go to war against Sparta in the Pelopennesean War. Well, not really, since the options were already selected by the Archons, and they only did it when they were certain they'd get the vote they wanted. Now, I don't mind the fact that there's a government ruling my life, but let's not be so mendacious about our importance.

[@MrHeavy466]

@@Mikethemerciless11 Wow, I didn't expect an actual response. Thanks.

[@ronaldyarrosh4457]

Thank you, Professor. By accident, I found some of your various interviews and now KZbin is presenting more and more of your stuff to me. For a long time I have been saying what you have said about the Vietnam war, which is basically that it cannot be considered a loss for the United States because it has resulted in a unified state, with which we enjoy diplomatic and commercial relations. A state which got the attention of the Chinese by saying that they might actually offer us a naval base on their coast. The Chinese stopped bothering their fishermen . They know how to maneuver. The government of the Philippines might be able to learn from them. Thanks again.

[@udeychowdhury2529]

I've read about Vietnam all my life ,some of this stuff is new to me!! Great stuff

[@GeneCAu]

always always fun to listen to Dr. Paine

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

Finally, a strictly political lecture on this war, the essential ingredient that wins (or loses) a war.

[@lawtonsegler1923]

She’s a national treasure.

[@ashaide]

And here I thought I knew a lot about this conflict. Was i sorely mistaken. Talk about 5D Chess. Thank you so much.

[@obriets]

I really appreciated this. For my entire life I’ve been critical of LBJ’s piecemeal air strategy. I still am fundamentally, but at least I understand his logic.

[@benwong4648]

Great emphasis on how not to win the hearts and minds of your desired allies. Unfortunately we seem to have ignored these lessons .

[@andrewthomas695]

Sadly, It seems that to rise to the top does not necessarily require the capacity to learn. Such is the sad reality of leadership in America.

[@Marc-vc1wo]

@@andrewthomas695leadership in America?? That's the reality of leadership everywhere. In fact I'd submit it's a perfect description of human nature, to ignore the past and thus have to relearn the hard lessons again, every single time.

[@KimTran-fd9pt]

Thanks so much to load these kind of programs on KZbin to share w/our family, Friends & the Communities, Yes here, She spoke the Truth, nothing but the real truth reg the Vietnam War in very brief timing but enough to know almost all the History of the South. We, over 5 million Vietnamese's people in the US & all over the world & including > 80 million other people suffering in Vietnam now, will remember forever your services and sacrifice in those 21 years (1954-1975) in protecting us and giving us all the freedom to live/choose/share... all kinds of gifts to enjoy the life of Religious/speak/love/education... From THe US & our Allies. Those lists above can never happen any more after Russia,China & North VN took over that South VN Country in 1975! Millions & Millions of VN Soldiers were killed in Concentration Camps/died in the Seas from Pirates & others... from that April 1975, to find those freedoms listed above!... Yes, how could we forgot It! In the US & all the world, if you get a chance to meet our people & their Vietnamese Communities, read our decent Magazines ..., you will see every day/week/year, any holiday... we still write/gather/organize from different kinds of South Veteran Military branches to remember all the wonderful memoirs of you all and us. The first, second, thirst... Vietnameses generations are enrolling in the different Military branches in the US to follow your heroic steps. Yes, we have been reading a lot of books/articles... written about your courage/honor/sacrifice ... We are and as always deeply appreciated for all your times in that Country. America has never been a great country and the leader of the world by filling in the moat and pulling up the drawbridge. We were never "defeated" : Absolutely not; We just gave-up! . “The War in Ukraine w/ Russia is a fight that America needs to have. It always involves sacrifice, but in the end & at the end of the sacrifice …, America will be bigger, stronger, richer and more influential in the world because we stood by our principals and stood by our friends. Semper-fi to our Fathers/Brothers: The wonderful G.I`s ...et all with all our love & admiring.

[@elirothblatt5602]

Great lecture, thank you!

[@bboomermike2126]

BTW I would like to thank DR. Paine for confirming what I have felt for over 50 years that the people who actually fought the war were disposable. I still feel this way. Now that I am completely retired the most patriotic thing I can do for my country is die so I am no longer a financial burden

[@HardThrasher]

Great lecture

[@stuckp1stuckp122]

Amazing!

[@charliesmith4072]

Ah, memories! In 1965 I got ahold of an English translation of Gen. Giap's book "People's War, People's Army". I read it and learned of what Prof. Paine called "half court tennis". I realized that the U.S. was fighting a war it had made up in its head. General Giap was fighting the real war, and for that reason we were going to lose. West Point made the book mandatory reading in 1996, only a generation late.

[@elviejodelmar2795]

I will paraphrase Col. Aaron Bank, the Father of US Special Forces, who spoke at my graduation from the Special Forces Officer's Course in 1974. He looked out at the Combat Infantryman Badges and said, "Guys, I hate to have to tell you this, but you deserve the truth. I personally knew Ho Chi Minh. He was a lot more a nationalist than a Communist. We could have worked with him. Vietnam didn't need to happen. I wrote a letter to President Truman telling him we should support Vietnamese independence rather than back the return of French colonialism." Also, I'm not sure about the comment about the VC being completely destroyed in the TET Offensive of 1969. I got to Vietnam just afterward and stayed for 18 months. I'll be damned if I know where all those VC who kept shooting at me came from.

[@rflameng]

In 1944 the OSS sent a mission to do exactly that, under major Archimedes L. Patti. The French in Indochina were doing the Japanese's bidding and the area was backwater in the war. It was important that situation changed and that the Japanese should maintain their troops there and didn't send them to reinforce either China or the Pacific island or the Philippines. The only credible resistance forces in Indochina were the Vietnamese led by Ho Chi Mihn. The condition he put was that the US would lean on France to grant independence, and that is what the US promised. Alas, by late 1945 it was looking like the elections in France would be won by the Communists, on the strength of their effectiveness as Resistance fighters. So the French (De Gaulle) leaned on the US to support the reinstatement of French colonial rule as the French people would not support him at home if he allowed the colonial empire to be dissolved. Result, the US broke its promise to Ho and his fighters. Moreover, in 1956 it reneged on the other promise, made in Geneva, to hold a referendum on the form of government of newly "independent" Vietnam, fearing (probably correctly) that the communist nationalists would win. Instead it supported the kleptocratic Diem government of the Frens-educated catholic elite against the interests of the (South) Vietnamese peasants. And we know how it all ended. Of course, these days the US is courting its former foe Vietnam, a Socialist Republic, and a true single party autocracy with an atrocious human rights record, as a counterweight to China, the People's Republic, it too a true single party autocracy with an atrocious human rights record. How the cookie crumbles...

[@elviejodelmar2795]

@@rflameng Well documented commentary. How different would the situation be, if Ho had become the leader of a united Vietnam instead of having to give way to the radical, hardliner, Le Duan.

[@sangmoon2464]

The USA really didn't lose as a country. In fact, the Vietnam War became a catalyst in improving the US military in the long run by breaking its hubris.

[@magnaviator]

You are so wrong. Replacing citizens with mercenaries, the first step to the death of the empire. Without citizens in the armed forces that have skin in the game, US end up in stupid pointless wars that waste people and resources. Today we have an unaccountable government corrupt and bought and sold to the MIC. Take a close look, US has turned into a 3rd world banana republic.

[@shariklein5883]

Go Navy!! Kudos to the Department of the Boat People!!

[@zachheisen5022]

Loved it, thanks!

[@pkn920]

Most accurate lecture, thanks!

Interesting perspective.

[@macworks9389]

I guess I need to look for this Johnson strategy of dividing China and Russia because I haven't seen it even in McNamara's book or McMasters. Seems a bit of an attempt to rehab him.

[@ianshaver8954]

I don’t know whether he planned for it to happen, but it happened. And it was yet another heavy burden for the USSR to bear.

[@acr08807]

The lecture starts at 5:27.

[@oceanrem6531]

I notice one simple pattern in geopolitical relations. No country likes to be invaded by a foreign power (regardless of the so-called "justifications). Moreover, any regime that is perceived by the local population to be a puppet regime of a foreign power will receive no support from its people. Once the foreign power withdraws from that country, the puppet government will collapse almost instantly (e.g., South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan...etc.). Vietnam is a tragedy. Millions of Vietnamese died (both North and South) simply because the French wanted to maintain its colonial hold on Vietnam after WWII. I could be wrong, but I understand that Ho Chi Minh initially sought support from the West (both the U.S. and Europe). He only turned to the Soviet Union and China for help AFTER both the U.S. and Europe refused to help him in his fight to get rid of the French colonial master.

[@nguyenphucdang4567]

South Vietnam wasn't a puppet, it was its own legitimate country. The U.S didn't help Ho Chi Minh because he was a communist that conducted bloody massacres

[@pennpfautz2024]

Great material and insights. I'm glad that Dr. Paine put up the Great Society slide. I always felt that Johnson really didn't want to be involved in Vietnam but, in order to protect his domestic agenda he did pursue the war because he feared he would be tagged with "losing Vietnam" after the way he'd seen the Republicans beat up on the Democrats about "losing China" when he was in the House and Senate.

[@Marc-vc1wo]

That's certainly possible; additionally, the mindset at the time was the 'domino theory' and that communism must be halted at every step of the way or it would infect all neighboring countries and they would fall like dominos; this theory was later discredited because communism did not always successfully infect neighboring nations - instead the spread of communism coincided more with post-colonial nations either desperate to throw off the shackles of their colonizer or still harboring resentment against said power after their departure.

[@newtonw1008]

50 years since…the great society…unfortunately weakened American society. The bloat in the system couldn’t get cleaned out. Alas

[@extranoodles]

I like that 30 second rule!

[@JohnnyQuach]

Isn’t her name SARAH ? Not sally

[@watch1949]

It’s Sarah everywhere I’ve encountered her lectures and Amazon books. Accuracy Matters.

[@IrishCaesar]

Sally is short for Sarah in some English speaking cultures

[@RahulDevanarayanan]

0:34 “Ancient Proverb” some intern had a laugh 🤣

[@zhang_han]

I think the key takeaway here is that everyone is ruthlessly pragmatic, and the result of which is everyone is screwed over by everyone else. Everyone lost the Vietnam war. Even North Vietnam, who inherited a mess due to all the bombings and killings that happened through this whole saga.

[@dfsdh432v9]

he US lost almost 10,000 aircraft during the Vietnam War. The breakdown: 578 UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) or drones 5,607 helicopters 3,744 planes

[@chrishooge3442]

I've spent much of my life thinking tactics. There is a reason you divorce tactics from strategic planning.

[@leebiggs1685]

The war in Vietnam left the Soviets teetering and the Warsaw Pact countries angry. The Soviet Union could not stay solvent supporting 30 million Poles who were on strike, Reagan's "starwars" missile defense, and the Saudis flooding the oil market. It was a hand well played.

[@richardbarrow4620]

#1: Do we have enough gattling guns on our ships? #2: Everybody underestimated Viet Nam. The whole region was been at war pre-dating history. The elite were able to draw on countless generations of military tactics

[@mattbrown5949]

History repeats itself. If only the Bushes, Cheney’s knew this….Maybe they did and just didn’t care?

[@ArmyJames]

It was a tie.

[@supernovarex]

I am curious if the social upheaval that occurred here at home over our involvement in Vietnam specifically the cessation of an active draft has weakened the American military's ability to respond to the needs of increased manpower?

[@mharley3791]

It fundamentally changed the way the military worked. It abandoned conscription, moved to more professional army and leaned into technical prowess. One of the outcome was that military became removed from civilian life. One reason the Vietnam was so domestically contentious was that anyone could be drafted; that is no longer the case, which allowed the military more leeway. Look at the Iraq and Afghanistan war. While mostly unpopular by Americans by 2008, America was able to continue to wage the wars because it had little effect on day to day life and most Americans didn’t think about it

[@SandfordSmythe]

The "Powell Doctrine " - don't proceed without national support and clear objectives.

[@MrSimonw58]

They whipped your hide real good

[@pedrocaetano3366]

have fun with that😂

[@user-fc6lt7cc7p]

Talk about knowledge compression. Lucky students, enjoy the lectures.

[@tomdolan9761]

Obviously Vietnam

[@fernandoalegria4240]

We lost the Viet Nam War. The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was written before the non existent event happened. We installed a playboy Catholic prince to run a Buddhist country. John Foster Dulles and the CIA made this gangster move, and it blew up in our face.

[@nguyenphucdang4567]

"Playboy Catholic Prince" ran the country quite well until the Americans got into his ways.

[@fernandoalegria4240]

@@nguyenphucdang4567 He was a thief. The South Vietnamese government was totally corrupt. Don't you understand, we tried to install our stooges so we could steal more efficiently.

[@24HeySay]

@@nguyenphucdang4567 Actually, his promised "land reforms" never happened, and he began persecuting, torturing, and murdering dissidents and Buddhist monks who disagreed with his policies, and that led directly to the creation of the homegrown insurgency we called the Vietcong. So the Playboy Catholic Prince was a miserable failure and wound up being taken out by his own people.

[@nguyenphucdang4567]

@24HeySay read a book. The land reforms happened and was a massive success. The communist monks were infiltrated by the communists and they were giving them drugs to burn themselves. Read UN fact-finding mission to SVN. The mission also found no policy that discriminated against the Buddhists. Educate yourself, a book is a good start. But we'll, after the vietnam war, Vietnam has become one of the most hypercapitalistic countries in the world. So was it a failure? Lol

[@simonmassey8850]

is this a real question?

[@JWPanimation]

Sure we won the Cold War against Russia, but what did we pay for it? We got Easterrn Europe but transferred our industrial base under the PLA. Now maybe we can make it up to the Vietnamese and move our manfacturing there.

[@newhailman]

Who lost the the Vietnam War? Answer: Walter Cronkite

[@muffaletta]

The dead

[@mirvjournal1693]

...China supports this, we support China. What now? Footnotes, expand plz 40:56

[@kdr955]

So Johnson handed off his grand cold-war strategy to Nixon for it’s completion? I’m not buying it.

[@marcob.7801]

I love this lady, she is quite brilliant, but to suppose that Viet Nam was really necessary and nothing more than a "payoff" to the Military Industrial Complex & Cohorts (frankly with LBJ's cooperation {reticent or no}) is sheer folderol! Indeed, 10,000 miles away and impossible to sustain, especially against well motivated and highly patriotic indigenous people, which was a conclusion that MANY geopolitical strategists of the day felt, from McNamara (in his heart of hearts) to LBJ and even Kennedy himself! I know, I was alive and well and remember HOW MUCH this divided our society as a whole and on many levels! America's unnecessary interference all over the world, with hindsight, has proven to be disastrous! Can you imagine had we NOT assassinated Mogadeh in Iran, how different, and probably how much better for the entire region it would be today! Indeed, LBJ, in HIS heart of hearts (IF he really had one) KNEW it would be another and even worse "Korea!" BUT,...the bill came due for the coup he was part of with JFK's assassination and "curbing communism" and "domino effects" were nothing more than semi-believable hyperbole! I am 72 years old and even as an 18 year old politically semi-aware young man the deceit was PALPABLE and OBVIOUS!

[@jona.scholt4362]

Who "lost" the Vietnam war? The people of Vietnam obviously. That country was war ravaged for decades.

[@animaxima8302]

😂 You obviously haven't seen anything about Vietnam other than Hollywood movies. Who lost? the army who desperately had to flee Saigon abandoning their bases and embassy. Get a grip. The US lost. Period.

[@teaser6089]

​@@animaxima8302 The US didn't lose the war. The people of Vietnam lost because their country was raveged by war and afterwards raveged by communism

[@toddfromwork8931]

@@teaser6089 um

[@kdr955]

The U.S. didn’t lose, they quit.

[@ninkd0311]

The B-52's made the north sign the peace in dec of 73 we left and they took over , mabe we won

[@patwalker4048]

Sarah is brilliant, but she makes it sound as if most of the thinking was contrived and covert. I believe that people share a pie chart of similar traits, no matter what tongue they speak. A few very bright people, some fairly bright people, a huge center wobbling class of people with little information, and short attention spans, and a significant wad of thick, feckless, stumbling halfwits looking for a mob they can join. I think wars, especially prolonged wars, are more like hundreds of ping-pong balls being alternately thrown in a box car than clever strategic grand masters moving pieces on a checkered board. Or at least another pie chart of those two.

[@FIREBRAND38]

For the most part I like Dr Paine's approach to history, but rating LBJ "a genius" because he passed legislation for his Great Society doesn't work for me. His relationship with the Joint Chiefs of Staff could even be characterized as that of a stupid man as well as a bully. A lot of the Great Society hasn't endured to the present, contributed to the break up of Black families and created an unsustainable entitlement system at the Federal level that no one can modify much less repeal. I would also say his attempt to think of the North Vietnamese government as similar to Texas politicians that could be reasoned with by building schools and bridges wasn't particularly smart.

[@scottmagnacca4768]

She is great but speaks way to fast to be able to digest what she is saying

[@lotcam4046]

32:27 bias

[@yernoi2167]

in what way?

[@lotcam4046]

​@@yernoi2167mocking "great leap backward", One shouldn't mock or show contempt for the mistakes of the enemies because it erodes reasoning and underestimate the capacity of tenacity which rivals hold. Look from where China was and where it is now, from a practical third world country to emerging Superpower.

[@Grak70]

@@lotcam4046think about how far ahead they’d be today if Mao hadn’t been such a fool to think GLF was a good idea. It was objectively horrible, misguided, and injurious policy. Great Leap Backward isn’t an insult: it’s a description.

[@JT-sr2pl]

​@lotcam4046 you're mixing different events. The great leap forward lead to 40million deaths due to famine and the chaos of the cultural revolution. Where China is now originates from the economic reforms after Tianamen Square in the 1980s. Imagine how much further forward China would be now if those reforms had occurred 20 or 30 years earlier. Literally was a step backwards socially, culturally and economically. They burnt books and smashed historical buildings.

[@lotcam4046]

@@JT-sr2pl I have heard somewhere that to make a long jump one needs to take some steps back.

[@Steve1734]

The Vietnam War was lost when the VietMinh defeated the French in the 1950s. From that moment on Vietnam was a war of liberation from foreign invaders, so the US had no right to be trying regime change in the South. The "spread of communism" excuse was only a ploy to get domestic support. By 1965, the US was militarily defeated right across the country and should have negotiated a peace. It took another ten years of mistakes and lives lost for this to be completed by an insurgency that had the support of the population. The US dropped more bombs on Vietnam than were dropped in WW2. 800,000 US troops were cycled through the war and it won no strategic victories. National Guard and McNamara's Morons were slaughtered. And Nixon and Kissinger actually sabotaged the Paris peace talks because it was an election year in 1968. The US fought a WW2 infantry war against an enemy that soundly thrashed them at every turn. And to this day, the US has not recovered its capability anywhere. It still builds forts which they now call firebases, even as recent as Afghanistan, like it was still 1870. There were whole battalions of US troops that did six month tours in Vietnam who never fired their rifles. In the meantime the night was owned by the VietCong and they converted the southern population into freedom fighters and succeeded. In Iraq and Afghanistan patrols went out at dawn and come back at dusk. They eat their KFC and have comfy beds behind 12' walls, and surf the internet. Pathetic.

[@cr7ckd0wn]

Just want to add a side comment on the "rest of the world going with the communism in the 50's and the 60's" observation... They went to the communism side not because of the colonial history of the West. Instead, the new nations picked their side because the communism embraced, encouraged, and supported their dictatorship, authoritarianism, and corruption.

[@robertgoldberg5435]

A sloppy, irreverent and little useful presentation.

[@ryanmaher1684]

Bet boomer