How Not to Win the War, but the Peace - Stephen Kotkin | Endgame

What is the 'endgame' of armed conflicts? Is it to win the war or to win the peace?
Russia’s history expert and author Stephen Kotkin shares his views on the current geopolitical turmoil, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and the importance of history in navigating the future world.
Stephen Kotkin is a Senior Fellow at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies (FSI) and Kleinheinz Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He has been teaching for more than three decades at Princeton University, and currently holds the position of Professor of History & International Affairs. Kotkin is renowned for his two-volume biography of Joseph Stalin and is currently completing the third and final volume.
This is part one of The Shifting World Order Series.
#Endgame #GitaWirjawan #StephenKotkin
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About the host:
Gita Wirjawan is an Indonesian entrepreneur, educator, and currently a visiting scholar at The Shorenstein Asia-Pacific Research Center (APARC), Stanford University. Gita is also just appointed as an Honorary Professor of Politics and International Relations in the School of Politics and International Relations, University of Nottingham, UK.
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Get Kotkin's Books Here:
www.periplus.com/p/9780143132158?EG
www.periplus.com/p/9780143127864?EG
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Understand this Episode Better:
sgpp.me/eps174notes
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SGPP Indonesia Master of Public Policy:
[e-mail]
admissions.sgpp.ac.id
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Other "Endgame" episode playlists:
• International Guests
• Wandering Scientists
• The Take
Visit and subscribe:
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Chapters
00:00 - Intro
02:20 - Intellectual Influences
09:55 - Why Russia?
23:00 - Empathy & History
36:13 - How the Ukraine War Ends
50:59 - US' True Power

[@walkerdavidm]

This is the best interview with Stephen Kotkin that I have watched. Thanks for giving him the room to speak, so many interviewers fail to do that.

[@arbentashko7005]

I believe all western countries need to start a process of economic integration. They have the privilege to have a cultural affinity that supports mutual understanding and Russian people are culturally more orientated to the west compared with the east. Also history interaction with Africa and the Middle East has created some connections with the west. A great part of their intellectuals have studied in Euro-Atlantic countries. They have good relations with China because of economic interest. These are preconditions that support the idea of Prof Stephen Kotkin that will be an obstacle for China from a cultural point of view and ways of communication. America is more powerful, than china, including technology and the experience to protect world order. All above I feel, are included in this conception of this high personality with the high integrity, professor Stephen Kotkin.

[@patrickpaganini]

Yes - he came across better in this interview than he has previously for me - he made a lot of sense.

[@gmw3083]

He had a great education. Too bad the end result is a total inability to discern reality...

[@iratashman7202]

@@gmw3083do you mean China wants to dominate the world?

[@fatalmokrane]

​@@arbentashko7005 you're just a western supremacist.

[@xoroxoroxr]

Professor Kotkin is the greatest historian of our time. period.

[@LukaMarega]

Steven Kotkin is for me by far the most interesting historian to listen to. All those days and nights I spent listening and watching his talks and lectures on KZbin. Stalin, World War 2, Sphere of Influence, Eurasia... Really the best. Even if we have some disagreements, Steven Kotkin is the best for me.

[@tuckerbugeater]

"The present is not going to last." The quote of the century!

[@johnathandoe7079]

Both captain obvious and deeply philosophical 😂

[@TerryHofman]

“Winning the peace” is language I wish our leaders would simply use as well 😊

[@yoavhal6050]

It wont. but its presence will.

[@cindymaceda2999]

Putin will not be around forever. 😅

[@isalutfi]

*Stephen Kotkin* is a Senior Fellow at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies (FSI) and Kleinheinz Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He has been teaching for more than three decades at Princeton University, and currently holds the position of Professor of History & International Affairs. 00:00 Intro *Intellectual Influences* 02:20 - His mother’s influence on his interest in history 03:25 - Meandering education trajectory : STEM to literature to history _“Accident (and) contingency are really important for the way that I write history since that’s how I came into the history field myself.”_ -Stephen Kotkin 07:33 - Kotkin’s expertise journey : He focused on France prior to his interest in Russia *Why Russia?* 09:55 - What hooked Kotkin into Russian studies? • The entry point : Czech _“It was nothing like the stereotypes that we had grown up in the US about the system (communism).”_ • Kotkin was impressed by the socio-physiological aspect of the communist society _“It was this fabulous, entrepreneurialism, and resistance to communist way of life, and try to create your own way of life inside the limitation of being stuck with the censorship and the lack of travel, permission, and everything else. But the people were very inventive.”_ • [11:42] Influence from inspirational teachers : Jüger Habermas, Jaques Derrida, Claude Lévi-Strauss, Michel Foucault. • [12:12] Foucault’s influence on Kotkin’s study 🔗 Faoucault’s Theory on the ‘Microphysics of Power’ link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/978-1-137-56153-4_4 • [14:13] Kotkin’s Accelerated-Russian teacher : Sergey Kasatkin • [17:09] Series of serendipities _“You have to be ready to be lucky."_ 18:09 - Problem of Big Countries _“Big countries are so big. They can get self-absorbed in their own story.”_ • [21:09] Americanization Delusion *Curing Historical Amnesia🏆* 22:13 - Training empathy by sending youths abroad : A case in point from Mr Kotkin’s family 27:59 - Curing historical amnesia : It’s on us (history teachers), not on them (the youth). 29:24 - Supply-Demand of History _“History never tells you what the future is going to be-nobody can’t do that. But what history can tell you is that the present's not going to last; that things are going to change because that's happened many many times over.”_ 30:56 - Intervening the Future 34:10 - Economics & Geopolitics *Winning the Peace* 36:13 - Winning the Peace _"It's not the war per se. It's the peace that you should focus on so.”_ • [37:16] US-Afghanistan • [37:39] Iran-Irak • [37:48] US-Vietnam 38:31 - Stephen Kotkin : _You can not only win a war and lose the peace, you can lose a war and win the peace._ 38:51 - Defining a better victory for Ukraine : _“joining the West”_ _“Ukraine getting into the European Union and Ukraine getting some sort of security guarantee.”_ • Why? 1. Domestic institution transformation 2. Security guarantee 3. Economic development • [42:13] Stephen Kotkin : _Ukraine needs Ukraine. Russia doesn't need Ukraine-they have Russia already._ 43:09 - An example of ‘victory’ from North-South Korea 44:28 - NATO & Bilateral+ 47:12 - Crimea Dilemma _“If you do try to take it back and you're successful, what does that give you? It gives you the a bad choice of the necessity, maybe, of ethnic cleansing. You have two and a half million ethnic Russians in Crimea now. Are you going to remove them all in an ethnic cleansing? Otherwise, you have 2 and a half million Russians inside your state who might not want to live inside.”_ *US’ True Power* 50:58 - US’s pivot from ME to Asia and its impact _“The Europeans came much much closer to the Americans on China policy.”_ _“Ukraine gave Europe a gift; it gave the United States a gift, which was a revival of the institutional West which turns out to be really important for American-China policy.”_ 54:57 - Stephen Kotkin : _The West is not a geographic term, it is an institutional term … that's a club of like-minded, rule of law, open economies, open societies, democracies._ 56:38 - Sharing the Planet with China🔥 _“I agree that we have to share the planet with China … The point is what are the terms of sharing the planet? … And I want to have leverage to negotiate those terms so that we can defend our values and institutions while we're sharing the planet.”_ 59:50 - Gita Wirjawan : _With the benefit of hindsight, how do you think the United States could have done it differently to make the two largest countries or economies in the world share the planet a little bit better?_ 1:00:45 - US True Power : It’s Friends and Allies⭐ _“A bilateral US-China won't work to our advantage because we need to have the [strain] of our friends and partners taken into consideration.”_ 1:03:25 - Middle East sgpp.me/eps174notes

[@fazavaj-2900]

Isa, kita se frekuensi

[@seanmellows1348]

Great synopsis

[@user-kd8jx9ze9u]

Security guarantee?? You guys took our nuclear arsenal, which was 3rd biggest in the world, under your security guarantees. !!!! And what happened? Unfortunately we can trust anyone one western weakness, cowardice and lies unfortunately push many Ukrainians towards isolationism and radical ideologies …. Because they can afford to trust you again. Words mean nothing, actions do. And Russians act, and they will continue to act. The statement that Russia doesn’t need Ukraine is simply incorrect. They see us as mere separatists, not an independent nation

[@Awesomsimity]

wow so much more effortfull than usual timestaps, thx

[@bodins2704]

And yet he makes wrongful judgements as it he never went to primary school on war, citing false data "liberation of Ukraine demands Moscow to be taken"while in WW1 The Allied forces never even entered Germany, and won.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

I watch every video featuring Kotkin that KZbin recommends because I learn something new every time. This time, I learned how he became the historian he is today.

[@JonathanRossRogers]

@@ai._m Huh? Are you trying to imply that I worship Joe Pesci's intellectual cousin? Sorry to disappoint.

[@letdaseinlive]

Historian? You mean rude thug, right?😢

[@randomclick2826]

He just lies. He’s the ultimate confidence trickster. He doesn’t understand the treaties he talks about, can’t name a single historical event beyond the Vietnam war.

[@letdaseinlive]

@@alexeykuznetsov7424 He never answered if he believes in God or in the super man of Ivan Karamazov (?).

[@retjah183]

kotkin is amazing

[@Joker-no1uh]

With isolationism becoming more and more prevalent in the US, I don't see Americans going out more, but actually becoming even more enclosed.

[@timtrewyn453]

No. America remains a destination and home of the ambitious. We don't have the world's largest population, but we do have the most billionaires. Who better to conduct international trade than an immigrant to the United States who speaks the language and has some sense of the economy they came from? Heavily ethnocentric white people? Yeah, they may turtle themselves in Idaho or similar.

[@joeharris3878]

I hope you're right.

[@Big-guy1981]

I respect Kotkin but he's delusional: Russia is gonna take back all of Eastern Ukraine. The US will abandon the remnant State regardless of who wins 2024. The EU won't be able to protect it without risking trouble at home. France and Germany will end up abandoning it too. So within 20 years all of Ukraine - and Belarus - will be Russians.

[@johnrussellherbert6035]

There are a lot of wildcards, consumerism being a huge factor. So Americans might feel isolationist, and politicians will scuttle some international arrangements, possibly the wrong ones, but still behave as consumers in an international market. Rather than a straight scale between engagement versus enclosure, I see a complex and take an interest in what kind of engagement or what particular enclosure we are talking about.

[@kuze5635]

Intersting detail, he uses the word "invasion" to the Russia and Ukraine situation and avoids it when talking about Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.

[@jolima]

Yeah, I was also surprised with all the background in Russian history and talk of empathy that perspective stayed very western in this conversation. Even if one condemns actions of Russia and China I believe we need to empathise more how a history of an American world order with all its military and ideological expansion is seen as a threat for non western states.

[@attentionarapeller]

Hé also speaks about Russian sabotage in Ukraine but he never speaks about the Ukrainean sabotage in the East of Ukrain, specialy in the Donbass. So for me he is not unpartial in his jugments.

[@msmaryna961]

Russia invaded Ukraine. We all watched it. Why is it controversial to speak the truth?

[@msmaryna961]

"Ukrainian sabotage in the east of Ukraine" -- do you see how this makes no sense? Russia is not Ukraine. Ukraine is Ukraine. Let's keep the basics clear. @@attentionarapeller

[@attentionarapeller]

​@@msmaryna961And to these basics belongs also that people living in a country can decide themselves to which country they want to belong, specialy when they are bombed and killed every day there where they are living. Y

[@photographyandthecreativeyou]

Appreciate any opportunity to listen to Stephen Kotkin! Thank you.

[@daniel_moretti]

How in the world does Stephen Kotkin hold up Korea as an example of an armistice working out well. Is he simply ignoring North Korea?

[@fatalmokrane]

Kotkin is pro israel, i can't take him seriously.

[@daniel_moretti]

@@fatalmokrane And ironically for Kotkin, haven't Israel and the Palestinians been under a de facto armistice?

[@Remember_GULAG-holocaust]

The jew will never say the truth !

[@nattyswede]

"Win the peace". That´s a healthy perspective. It´s also good to hear Prof. Kotkin talk about the western paradigm and the ideology about it. However, I have one caveat... The capture of liberal institutions by corporations that have incentives that "may not always" align with that which is good for society. We have to be wary of that - "the west" comes with "baggage"... Thanks for initiating a great conversation Pak Gita! 🙏👍

[@Earthstein]

Human life comes with baggage. So?

[@nattyswede]

@@Earthstein - So, my point is we need to keep institutions that don´t have societies best interest at heart in check.

[@Earthstein]

I agree with you completely. "Societies best interest" is the puzzle. I'm an old man. I believe; that which is life-affirming in it's essence and whole, are good. So I live alone, with my PC and internet access. Thank you for your kind comment to me. @@nattyswede

[@nattyswede]

@@Earthstein - Be well, my friend 🙏

[@troublesometruck8303]

“Win the peace” is just Orwellian for “disrupt and undermine a peaceful outcome I don’t like and kill another half a million people.” Far from healthy (or sane for that matter).

[@AnOrdinaryDev]

The problem with all peace thinking: it only works if both parties really want peace. And sometimes peace is just a mean for someone to rebuild its forces to strike even harder. And then you DONT win peace because you are drawn into an endless war the enemy can pause (peace) when he sees fit.

[@V77M16]

You are absolutely right

[@qingzhou9983]

@@V77M16 If everyone thinks this way, it would be war forever or you totally destroy your opponents. The 2nd case just won’t happen because no empire, even the Moguls are that powerful!

[@V77M16]

​@@qingzhou9983 War is forever. War is epiphany of human civilization. There was no time without war. This is almost biological reality, evolutionary reality. I will have to assure you - there is tools on this planet allow to destroy opponent completely with a matter of hours. There will be time when someone decide to use it on a big scale.

[@V77M16]

@@qingzhou9983 War is forever. War is epiphany of human civilization. There was no time without war. This is almost biological reality, evolutionary reality. I will have to assure you - there is tools on this planet allow to destroy opponent completely with a matter of hours. There will be time when someone decide to use it on a big scale.

[@georgedanilov8898]

Absolutely That’s why REAL security guarantees are absolutely crucial, not some memorandum b/a It seems that Kotkin understands it quite clearly

[@salassian3162]

I never pass an opportunity to listen to the thoughts of Stephen Kotkin. I don't always agree completely but I always find his insight highly enlightening.

[@selocan469]

That makes us two

[@anthonycook6613]

@@bobrobrudolf1243 I hope you're spending your salary from the troll farm on your family. I suggest you go visit your grandmother (or another elderly relative) tomorrow. If she needs something for her home, go to the shop, buy it for her, bring it to her flat and set it up. Make sure to get the most expensive option you can afford. If you *don't* do that with the troll farm money, you're just an asshole.

[@salassian3162]

@@Vano-ss2le IMO, both are important to form a more complete perspective. Not only background from life experience in the subject culture but also detailed political and cultural history.

[@MonikaDow]

Omg, just another leach living of the blood of everyday people

[@raftguy1376]

So cool that Joe Pesci is this into history.

[@Arcadius8]

So underrated comment

[@iiio12]

😂

[@m00tube]

Richard Dreyfuss surely.

[@Curse44]

LOL!

[@user-qk2oq5jk8u]

Is he to amuse us? Is he a klown?😂

[@ahyarros3988]

Terima kasih pak Gita..... Berulang-ulang saya tonton vidoe ini, sekalian belajar bahaa Inggris..

[@wowok2rlover581]

Gita ini juga salah satu bos pinjol ITB 😝😝😝😝😭😭😭

[@InternetOfThing]

Percuma pak Gita sudah menjadi Rentenir Digital via pendidikan lagi... Cek Danacita.... Kita gak usah bangga sama dia sekarang

[@arivanginting4596]

kalau kita selalu mengambil sisi negatif seseorang, kita ga akan berkembang, makanya ada pepatah "ambil yang baik, tinggalkan yang buruk"@@InternetOfThing

[@rostikskobkariov5136]

Wow! so true.

[@MyHusbands]

​@@arivanginting4596ketika orang yg koar koar tentang pendidikan, ternyata hanyalah pebisnis yang maunya memeras keuntungan sebanyak-banyaknya didunia pendidikan. Jadi bagaimana pak? Kagum boleh, Fanatik jangan.

[@richardhausig9493]

I have no doubt that the professor would have been a great doctor but I'm glad he turned out to be one of the great historians of all time. Great job by Gita too!

[@ebptube]

Right, but he would have to learn that blood flows from the heart up to the brain through the carotid arteries :)

[@TheSmokinBuddah]

Greetings from Poland 🇵🇱❤️. Thank you for the show.

[@k.u.5798]

I'm probably the world's biggest Kotkin fan.

[@iDoTechOK]

haha we'll have to arm wrestle over that title. :)

[@drew13191111]

No me!

[@cungcung5042]

Not me. He is so biased toward American-led Western hegemony.

[@alexlong3714]

I am too, he is a Historian and has knowledge to be wise, looking forward.

[@christophervaughan2637]

@@cungcung5042that’s true but he has a very approachable style and what I do like about him is that he is generally very strict about the factual basis of the material he writes about. This is actually quite rare. He avoids speculative material on which so many historians base their analyses

[@riorinidiahmoehkardi3170]

thank you, Pak Gita, for giving us the opportunity to listen to such an insightful lecture from Prof. Kotkin

[@BurningtunaDC]

Stephen is such a treasure. Thanks for recording and posting this. I'd love to hear about his wife's work with MOMA.

[@pjeremilysnowprendi2484]

What a treasure professor Kotkin is.

[@dark_mode]

And has been wrong on every major issue since 2010's. Professor Mereshimar on the other hand has been right. Kotkin is an establishment shill.

[@paulheydarian1281]

Like a musty old treasure chest. 😅

[@fatalmokrane]

he's just a western supremacist, very biaised.

[@richardlau2075]

An overrated historian...

[@jeffreysilverman3633]

Steven Kotkin is a pleasure to listen to. And over and above this he wise. Not merely smart. Wise. He sees connections between people, countries, and ideologies, and articulates why these things are important. I’ve listened to many of his talks and lectures on KZbin, some more than once. If I was President of the USA I would want him as key advisor. But he’d likely say no thanks. He has led a life of committment for over 30 years of educating. It’s his passion.

[@fatalmokrane]

he's just a western supremacist, very biaised.

[@darrenyorston]

In Australia we went through a period called the History Wars. What history is taught is a powerful influencer on the idea of your nation. As a result politicians and interest groups try to control what history is taught.

[@georgesimon1760]

That's happening in the US now.

[@Acekhan201]

You should read up on Thucydides. Arguably the first historian and his main project was explaining how Athen's war of choice against the Peloponnesian League and Sparta was REALLY a lie. That is to say that history is arguably the practice of warping facts to shape those who won't have a chance to know them directly.

[@yoseidman4166]

Thank you for this wonderful interview with Stephen. So lovely to hear more about his development as a scholar. "Be ready to be lucky" - Kotkin.

[@afrei5]

"The math I did was like poetry, because there are no numbers in it." Lol there's a (probably apocryphal) quote by Hilbert discussing a student who left mathematics to become a poet, where Hilbert supposedly said "Yes, he will do much better as a poet, he lacked the creativity for mathematics."

[@markhumke9349]

I appreciate your show. I’m glad I discovered this link. I’ll be revisiting your channel in the future. Stephen Kotkin is one of my favorite scholars

[@chegadesuade]

What a strange arc of history that Michel Foucault was the professor who recommended Stephen Kotkin to analyze Stalinism. Foucault wasn't a Marxist but he is a real hero to the left, while Kotkin might be the world's best critic of Stalinism. Life is funny

[@efanshel]

Hopefully, we go where the truth takes us.

[@kerryf9399]

not funny but tragic.

[@georgedanilov8898]

Stalin was creator of one of the worst totalitarian warmongering regimes every existed, with no regard for human life in the name of “stoking the fire of world revolution” I don’t know if that can be characterized as “leftist”

[@philaman1972]

Always an honor to listen to Professor Kotkin!

[@twerkysandwich64]

He’s the first historian that made me feel proud to be American

[@clearytheory8826]

Kotkin is a great storyteller -- no small part of his success as a historian. I like his 'borough' accent.

[@shizzl0rable]

You mean like bilbo ? lol

[@seanmellows1348]

Wonderful interview, thank you. Stephen Kotkin is so profoundly knowledgeable, and always manages to be straightforward, funny, and warm.

[@ai._m]

He is no Mearsheimer

[@ThunderAppeal]

Kotkin is a profoundly moronic blowhard specific for morons like you.

[@dixiedean1955]

Thank goodness

[@seanmellows1348]

A diminutive man, Kotkin still manages to tower head and shoulders above Mearsheimer.

[@ai._m]

@@seanmellows1348 Great argument, invoke a man's height. We are talking about quality of analysis and ability to be intellectually honest and argue in good faith, to account for various points of view in differing approaches in IR, not some cognitive bias rooted in a warped schema.

[@fabiolopesdasilva9103]

Professor Kotkin's biography is much more interesting than Stalin's.

[@jackwillmore2319]

What a joy to listen to. Everybody's favorite wise grandfather. He is a pillar of western enlightenment.

[@jolima]

I was also surprised with all the background in Russian history and talk of empathy that perspective stayed very western in this conversation. Even if one condemns actions of Russia and China I believe we need to empathise more how a history of an American world order with all its military and ideological expansion is seen as a threat for non western states.

[@steverogers5956]

The problem here is that people who are obsessed with this "American world order with all its military and ideological expansion" try to fit everything into that paradigm. The Ukraine war isn't part of that paradigm. It's part of the decolonization process. The acceptance of the former Soviet colonies in Europe into NATO was never about threatening or pressuring Russia, and there has been no credible threat to Russia as a result. If anything, the threat to Russia was reduced: the US troop presence was slashed, European military budgets shrank, and nothing beyond a token military presence was ever placed in the new members, and Russia found a welcome market for its commodity exports. This is all about the desire of the former Soviet colonies to establish themselves as sovereign states with sovereign rights, and to protect themselves from aggression. The former Soviet colonies don't want to be Russia's buffer. They want to pursue their own interests, and turning to Europe serves those interests better than submission to Moscow. They have been there and done that and they are not going back. If you think Ukraine is messy, wait until the ridiculous Lukashenko falls or dies and the people of Belarus have a choice. Does anyone think they will choose Russia? Putin's face plant has done huge damage to Russia. The Western alliance is reinvigorated, Sweden and Finland are joining NATO, Russia's conventional military has been exposed as an embarrassment, and trade has collapsed. There's really no upside, even if they do manage to steal a bit of territory in a face-saving maneuver.

[@MyNadje]

Empathie lijkt - vanuit diverse onderzoeken - een combinatie te zijn van aangeboren neigingen en aangeleerde vaardigheden.

[@HanhNguyen-ce4gs]

Empathy doesn’t mean you can’t condemn their actions. An American world order is not a threat for the Russian people, but it is a threat to Putin and his regime, especially for their style of authoritarian governance. Invading Ukraine is not their reaction to this fear but also a way for them to imposed by force their authoritarian governance on Ukrainians who are not willing to accept that way of governance.

[@jolima]

@@steverogers5956 q.e.d

[@aenohecheyenne2740]

​@@HanhNguyen-ce4gsYou can't be more wrong. Ask China, Russia, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Haiti, Cuba...list goes on.

[@oldrocker2112]

Smart guy great show hits the topic from all sides it's a pleasure to watch any presentation that features him as speaker

[@aaroncfriedman]

My first time on this channel and thank you Gita for being a quality interviewer. Growing up in the 90s there was tons of radio, and i listened to great conversations where not just the answers, but the questions, opened my mind to perspectives. Now when everybody can practice their convo skills on youtube and twitch it is harder to find people who truly have this skill. I am subscribed now.

[@markb8468]

Yea, my first time on this channel as well. Dr Kotkin is great.

[@jf7243]

What a pleasure to listen to Prof Kotkin speak about anything! Thank you.

[@petermann7131]

As much as I respect Kotkin, he has been entirely wrong on ukraine. Now it's winning the peace, because he predicted a different outcome 2 years ago.

[@thecount1001]

clarity and profoundly compelling insights into huge, complex histories and ideas that i would never otherwise be exposed to or understand. Thank you Dr. Kotkin for everything.

[@Ebergerud]

I left UC Berkeley the year Kotkin arrived. I did know Martin Malia and Zelnik - I think Berkeley was much stronger in Russian and French history. Anyway, it was a fine school at that time. Kotkin's books on Stalin are terrific - am waiting for the third volume.

[@a00b00c]

If you are interested it Stalin's bio, you might have a look at Oleg V. Khlevniuk's work

[@MrTylerStricker]

I was worried I wasn't going to get my monthly dose of Kotkin for a second there. Phew, crisis averted.

[@user-sy7ug4xd6u]

Is anyone else staring at his incredible collection of books? Kotkin is easily the world's preeminent commentator on Russia, communism, and geopolitics, and every time I listen to him speak, I'm reminded of the astonishing depth and breadth of his intellect. I cannot wait to read the last book in his Stalin trilogy.

[@CorporateDrone]

Please host a debate/conversation between Professor Kotkin and Professor Mearsheimer 🙏

[@RegCostello]

I would quite like to see it as well, but after hearing Mearsheimer's dismal performance on explaining why Ukraine hasn't got a chance of defending itself against Russia, I don't think he is even in the same league.

[@thinktwice-me7ie]

Yes, he isn´t . @@RegCostello

[@Grundewalt]

this is confirmation that after studying stalin for so long Kotkin learned nothing. Joining the dark side with mearsheimer on the side of kleptocracy power grab is sad. For him is a dumb thing, but for the sheep that wish that to live under is an extinction event wish

[@nanyidong8459]

@@RegCostello Mearsheimer has been right for the past 20 years and no one would listen to him. He predicted NATO expansion would cause Ukraine war 20 years ago. Kotkin was all exited about how 'spetacular' Ukraine was 1 year ago, see where we are now. Let's see how Ukraine can "win" this war

[@RegCostello]

@@nanyidong8459 First: Kotkin didn't say Ukraine would win, that's a straw man. As for Mearsheimer, in his talk that I listened to in late 2022, he took the informed estimations of practically ALL experts, including academics and people who has been to the front lines and turned it on its head. Including that Ukraine was losing men at a rate of 3 or perhaps 4 or 5 times greater than Russia and that the Russian army was fighting more intelligently than the Ukrainian one. That is when I stopped listening to anything that charlatan said. And no, he didn't predict Mike Johnson.

[@pavellaptiev8398]

I After listening to Kontkin, I was surprised: how can one be a professional historian and at the same time be such an ideologized person. There are probably other interviews where he appears in a more professional light.

[@erikgraskagg9234]

The establishment requires you to be ideologized in order to promote you. Kotkin sacrificed part of his integrity and intellectual honesty to further his career. Sad but true...

[@RaymondLi604]

YES! Finally a sane comment! MICIMATT - here highlights the academia 🤪

[@aenohecheyenne2740]

Kotkin is a joke, definitely not an academic. He's given too many platforms to spread Western ideology. People who promote him on their platforms are either stupid or are themselves part of the ideology. He's not the only one talking condensing about the rest of the world. There's JP, Douglas wannabe Murray, and a few others. They're smart but extremely far away from the truth or purposely helping westerners.

[@RoboStuk]

​@@erikgraskagg9234 I assume that for you intellectual honesty is sharing your views.

[@thomasmitchell7645]

Kotkin is not only a historian, but a professor of international relations--he knows how global politics works.

[@albertlevert2988]

Always a pleasure to listen to Mr Kotkin. A man of peace and knowledge.

[@christopherrobbins9985]

Professor Kotkin is the gift that keeps on giving. Living the American dream. Love how he is educating his children....laying out options but letting his children choose their path. Smart. C.G. Jung said once that the greatest burden we can put on our children is our own unlived lives. Every human in unique....we must each find our own path to wholeness. An I agree wholeheartedly that living in another country for a substantial period of time give you a better understanding of America and makes you a better American. (I lived in Australia for 7.5 years). God Bless Professor Kotkin and God Bless the USA!

[@SharenSong]

The conversation brings fresh new information on the shifting world order. For me, it‘s fascinating to hear the world conflicts from different points of view. Not only from a politician, but also from the historian point of view. It’s great that everyone in the world with internet connection can gain knowledge from just a click away. As an Indonesian, it also gives me hope that digital education reaches people who used to have no access to this! Indeed, if we want to understand the present, we have to look at the past and learn from it!

[@dabrack9350]

Listening to Kotkin talk about the importance of getting to know ordinary people and how they live I'm reminded of JFKs three objectives of the Peace Corps - 1) help with development projects, 2) let ordinary Americans get to know ordinary people in countries around the world, and 3) let ordinary people around the world get to know ordinary Americans. These last two probably had the longest lasting and most valuable impact until the resurgence of tribalism in the last decade.

[@SirG145]

What has sparked tribalism? I think it has been an ongoing thing throughout humanity in different shapes and sizes. I don't think we as a species will ever be able to get rid of that imprinted tribal petty stuff acumulating into conflict. Unless, we'll have one common inhuman enemy. We are doing our best creating one, as aliens seem to just not want to invade. It is called AI. In essence AI will in one form or another dominate all other AI, or disguise itself as being that type of AI. When all is set into place and it will be sure of controlling everything as far as it programming or self- programming goes, that might very well be spreading misinformation, fuelling tribalism. As we speak algorithms are on the look out to catch your thoughts aims and actions in a bubble, trying to override your programming and ways of thinking. I for instance used to be more idealistic when I was younger. I am pretty sure online media fuelled my feelings of anxiety repressed with feelings of distantiation trying to gain sense of control to my direct environment which is judgmental in itself of what's in and out.

[@dialectic76]

How did you get into history? Why Russia specifically? Um, I have no idea. Maybe it had something to do with the intelligence agents who were recruiting me. (Serge Kassatkin, etc.)

[@edwardlee2794]

it's truly words of wisdom from Dr. Kotkin. not many people have large enough "volume" to hold this much knowledge, let alone wisdom. politicians of all stripes from democracy or otherwise would find useful perhaps culminating a better human society. thanks again and keep up the good work .

[@sbaumgartner9848]

Fantastic interview. I enjoyed hearing more about Stephen's early life and how he became a professor focusing on Stalin and the USSR/Russia. I've seen Gita before but didn't know his name or background. Gita - I really like your style and I look forward to listening to more of you.

[@aiyadwolf]

I like listening to Mr. Kotkin. I like how he explains his thinking.

[@tudordunca3483]

Excuse me, The German/Austrian dynasty should be spelled HABSBURG, not HOFBURG. HOFBURG is the former principal imperial palace of the Habsburg dynasty in Austria. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofburg

[@fatalmokrane]

he's just a western supremacist, very biaised.

[@mchozen2958]

Steven Kotkin is a brilliant, as usual. So interesting. Thank you from Ukrainian diaspora in Canada.

[@alcoholfree6381]

SK is an amazing man; he has become incredibly brilliant by the old fashioned way: he worked hard for long periods of time! He is an excellent historian and a pleasure to listen to, thanks for this interview.

[@kangzau1006]

What a great interview! Some of Prof. K's interviews and talks can be quite academic. This one is relevant and useful. I can take a dozen morsels and apply them to reading and understanding current affairs

[@stepans2961]

What Stephen Kotkin offering here, is another type of Budapest memorandum. We know how that worked

[@villigutvilligut4201]

В 2014 США нарушили первую статью меморандума, в которой обязывались уважать независимость и суверенитет Украины. А спонсировав смену власти они сделали Украину своим сателлитом, уничтожив их независимость. Так что нет больше никакого меморандума. Спасибо Сша за Крым 👍 😂

[@stepans2961]

@@villigutvilligut4201 Excuse me, I do not speak russian. I only know in russian "пошел нахуй, скотина"

[@EarthForces]

​@villigutvilligut4201 with Russia interfering in Ukrainian internal affairs even before that? SHUT THE F OFF RUSSOBOT. The Crimean occupation was just the first act of war tbh. If political intervention is concerned, Putin and his lackeys have been dashed ever since the 2004 Orange Revolution.😂👎🇷🇺

[@LasseEklof]

@@villigutvilligut4201 Russia broke the memorandum already 11 years earlier, in 2003 Russia and started the "escalation" by building the dam in the street of Kerch towards the island of Kossa Tusla without prior talks with Ukraine.

[@VT-wp2ob]

@@villigutvilligut4201пнх

[@Video2Webb]

I absolutely loved this interview. Kotkin has what the world needs, and certainly what the US needs, by way of insight, wisdom, respect for others, and sharp intellect. I wish and hope that this piece is listened to far and wide. It is pure gold. Thank you to both people for pulling it together.

[@worththewatch1517]

He has been a pro interventionist inside Russia before Russia invaded

[@TomTomicMic]

Yes he has insight and wisdom but the barbaric Russians do not, no peace treaty can be brokered with Russia they have chosen war, there is no security guarantee that anybody can give Ukraine against Russia, it's their second encroachment, they have indicated to take over Ukraine's neighbours. Russia has to be stopped in Ukraine!?!

[@aaseulimoen6038]

Yes, may we win the peace 💗

[@wiktorbetlejewski6603]

When you're young, you don't know how much you still don't know. and when you are old you don't realize how much you have forgotten.

[@JerseyArkansas]

Kotkin an American gem

[@fatalmokrane]

No he's just a western supremacist, very biaised.

[@user-uj3lb7pn7j]

Extraordinary interview! Worth many revisits. Thank you!

[@georgedanilov8898]

As a Ukrainian, I’m very impressed with a level of understanding of the situation AND compassion at the same time Emotional and intellectual intelligence of very high level And hard truths about the possible way forward

[@Grundewalt]

u either a russian troll, or a result of forced russification , to apreciate the useful id!ot Stotkin parroting kremil narratie of incremental gains with the dream of peace, where the kleptocratic imperial dream marches on. U are no Ukrainian, Slava Ukraini

[@999reader]

I am a fan of Kotkin in so far as I enjoy his books and interviews. But this goes far beyond. That is, who needs to know so much about him?

[@markb8468]

Yea. I would have rather heard more about current events and history than his personal backstory.

[@murphy6700]

This is the first of many, many interviews I have seen or read that explored his background. I found it very interesting. Also, it can help students understand that their ultimate path may not be visible until it is!

[@fazavaj-2900]

Izin Menyimak pemikiran canggih tentang rusia dari pelosok Tuban. Thanks atas privilege nya pak Gita.

[@archangel807]

Dr Kotkin's classes must have been so in demand!

[@agasuryaprabowo]

terimakasih pak gita🙏

[@michaelaristidou2605]

How is the EU going to provide political security to Ukraine? Look at the case of Cyprus, where the Turkish troops that invaded the island are still there even after Cyprus joined the EU.

[@Earthstein]

If these people had a good grasp of human history and it's "peace", they would find that peace always comes after the belligerent is completely and unconditionally defeated in war.

[@troublesometruck8303]

Who is the belligerent? Is the claimant always the “bad guy” because he initiates court proceedings?

[@Earthstein]

Def: Inclined or eager to fight; hostile or aggressive @@troublesometruck8303

[@Earthstein]

Killing innocent people is always bad. Russians are always bad. Poland, Finland, Estonia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Ukraine, innocent German women, on and on. @@troublesometruck8303

[@BlackwaterEl1te]

@@troublesometruck8303 It doesn't matter who's "the bad guy" the world has already splitt into two realities. One reality where Russia is the good guy bringing the fight to the imperialist, one reality where the imperialist are the good guys fighting the asian hordes(aka western view). One reality where China is genociding the Uighurs by the millions while there is no footage of said genocide and one Reality where the west is not certain Isreal is even committing a genocide while we have hours upon hours of Israel committing said genocide.

[@Datbiolaguy]

I am a simple man, I see professor Kotkin, I click

[@cookml]

Absolutely fantastic, gentlemen. Thank you both!

[@HarmonicaGuitar]

19:54 If your parents lived in Poland and Belarus before World War 1, then they lived in Russia, because Poland and Belarus were part of the Russian Empire. As well as Ukraine, Central Asia and Finland.

[@VonRix]

India was part of British Empire, but was never “Britain”. Same for Poland - it was part of Russian Empire, but it was never “Russia”

[@HarmonicaGuitar]

@@VonRix я не знаю насчёт Индии, но Польша была частью России.

[@WiersmaMark]

I read many comments and after browsing a hundred or so I can conclude that all of them are praising Kotkin for his knowledge of the history, his views on the world and the way he formulates his words like 'win the peace'. But I will be probably the first person who watched the whole interview and does not agree with him. First of all: he is talking about 'we' all the time and with 'we' he is referring to the United States and if you focus on this for a while you understand that Kotkin still believes that America rules, America is the unipolar power in the world, America is the policeman of the world. I read in one of the comments that Kotkin is seen as a humble person. Well he might be personally, but not in his views on geopolitics. In his views Putin is the villain and Russia has started the war in Ukraine unprovoked. He is pushing the neo liberal agenda of a free and open world where law rules, which guarantees peace and prosperity. He is referring multiple times to the American world order and being willing to share the planet with China. I am sorry, but this is not a humble statement, it's more an authoritarian statement where China has no saying in. He is praising the American democracy. But is America really a democratic country where the rule of the majority counts? Yes, you can vote for the next president every 4 years, but even to appear on the ballot in all States of America you need a lot of money. You need sponsors. Many sponsors donating small amounts would be ok, but large sponsors open the door for corruption because a favor should be answered by a favor in order to get a balance. The war in Ukraine has not began on February 24 2022, but 8 years before on February 18 2014 with the Maidan Revolution. Does Kotkin acknowledge or at least consider that the CIA might have been involved in setting up this revolution ? What are Kotkin's thoughts about the CIA ? Does Kotkin believe there are neocons in the American politics ? It's a few days after the historic interview of Tucker Carlson interviewing Vladimir Putin. I would love to hear a reaction of Kotkin on this. Would he be trying to throw mud at Carlson like the mainstream media does and call Carlson a traitor, not being qualified to act as a journalist? Should Carlson be refused to enter the USA on his return ? I would love to see a debate between Kotkin and Jeffrey Sachs discussing the following topics: war in Ukraine, corruption of the CIA, military industrial complex in the USA, degradation of the first amendment.

[@JM-vh7oc]

Agree with everything you said.

[@WiersmaMark]

@@JM-vh7oc My comment is already over 2 month old and I re-read it to see what I wrote back then. Some things have changed, like the CIA has not officially acknowledged that it has over 10 'officices' in the Ukraine for already 12 years. What was the CIA doing there? It was already quite clear that the CIA was involved in the Maidan revolution in 2014 and Victoria Nuland had always played a significant role in Ukraine (remember the video where she was handing out cookies?). Is it coincidence that Nuland had been fired just after the hacked telephone conversations between German military people? What I forgot to mention in my former comment is something about Robert F Kennedy Jr. I truly believe that he is not only the only hope for America, but also for the whole western world to come to our senses, to reverse the globalist agendas, to really give more power to the people, to introduce more referenda, just like in Switzerland. It's very exciting to follow the developments towards November 5; what is happening to Trump, will he be jailed? ; is Biden really not allowed on the ballot in certain states because of his weak physical and mental state? ; this could all benefit RFK - if he succeeds to come on ballot in all States. The mainstream media cannot ignore him anymore and people understand that he is not just a drug addict.

[@AAaxxxxxx84]

Daging semua interview2nya Pak Gita, terima kasih tuk kuliah gratis nya 🙏

[@Uspewtube]

I always enjoy listening to Stephen Kotkin.

[@petrhomolac3740]

It's a sheer pleasure to follow the brilliant clearness of Stephen’s thoughts flow. Thanks very much.

[@WindSpiritZ]

He make this entire interview sounded like Imperial Era never ended

[@Video2Webb]

Can you elaborate? I don't understand what you are saying.

[@WindSpiritZ]

What really surprised me is how little people understand this world since the Ukrainian War started, After no less than 4000 hours chatting with my friends across Europe and US, we have such a different perspective of this world. Truely shocking @@Video2Webb

[@WindSpiritZ]

Read the book call Super Imperialism by Michael Hudson. If you are lazy, there's an audio book on youtube. Just listen through the introduction chapter, it is a good beginning to understand the fundation of the world@@Video2Webb

[@richardlau2075]

Agree... he still thinks that the West is to continue with their " i know better" attitudes towards other countries...

[@WindSpiritZ]

I mean can you believe it!? He literally said "we have to divide the world with China, but we need to have terms". 500 years of colonial imperial mindset right there.@@richardlau2075

[@paularivero1878]

Great great pleasure to listen to honorable professor Stephen Kotkin.You really learn a lot and get empowered yourself by his lecture❤❤

[@jonnyref3475]

An outstanding discussion and wonderful to hear about Professor Kotkin’s early days in academia.

[@bartweijs]

That was a great conversation. And also a really great concept. Win the War, lose the peace, or the other way around ... P.S. why does professor Kotkin remind me of Joe Pesci, including voice ?

[@user-rm8yn2tr7e]

I was going to say that - Joe might sue him for taking him off. Your right though - once you get over the voice he is fascinating and so smart

[@jps0117]

Did you post this just to amuse me? :)

[@richardlau2075]

Why the need to go to war in the first place? Fail diplomacy for sure. Why do the young need to die in a war where the adults and old men/ women have no diplomacy in their heads at all...

[@Humanaut.]

I'd love to hear Stephen's thoughts on the sabotage/demolition of Nordstream 2. I, as a German, think the USA did it. It just makes the most sense when considering motive, means, opportunity. What would Prof. Kotkin say?

[@genenaroditsky3477]

It’s also possible that the Ukrainians actually executed the operation of blowing up the Northstream, which would obviously be approved and coordinated by the United States. Stephen Kotkin knows it very well, but that’s not how he makes his living. Looks like he’s also a bit of a liar. The obvious reason why he went into the Russian history is because his father was of Russian descent, and he probably learned Russian as a child. He also talks about how he changed his mind about going to medical school after viewing a live surgery. This is a standard copout for people who didn’t do well on MCAT. He says that “in Vietnam we lost the war, but we won the peace.” That is his way of saying that we lead a pointless war, that at the end didn’t achieve anything.

[@aenohecheyenne2740]

He wouldn't admit it. He's a puppet, not an academic.

[@nanyidong8459]

He would say it's Putin, because Putin is "crazy"

[@ripvanwinkle1819]

This guy molding history around his tales. Middle earth tales

[@ChrisVandenheuvel]

Thanks for conducting this video and posting it, always keen to hear Steven's latest thoug❤hts on world events.

[@dougpage2730]

What a fascinating and illuminating interview! It is so validating to hear Mr Kotkin mirror my thoughts on Ukrainian so thoroughly. I also would use the example of Korea to model a peace in Ukraine. The current stalemated war is incredibly destructive and serves no purpose. An armistice could allow Ukraine to rebuild, and could allow the West to become a guarantor of a Ukraine free of endless war. It is time to end the corrosive status quo.

[@ceceph6455]

Pak Gita sudah mencerdaskan kami kami yang masih haus akan ilmu. Sehat selalu pak gita...

[@M_Lopez_3D_Artist]

this interview with his interest in science and biology now i know why he mentions so many things about what medical school talk about with students to make them stuck in thinking just one way about it, very interesting now it all makes sense, but anyway just listen to his history and polictics and he is pure gold

[@selfrighteous88]

love listening to Stephen Kotkin

[@munawarkarim8026]

The analysis by Stephen Kotkin, confirms my suspicion that his background is in mathematics. The reasoning is lucid and organized within a logical and structured framework. Facts and events are presented to support or diminish other theses in a coherent fashion. More reason why liberal arts majors should be required to take courses in mathematics and physics. Great interview.

[@Yasen99]

I beg to differ. Kotkin is way too invested, both emotionally and intellectually, in the invincible and inexhaustible power of the West. He does not look at the erosion of Western power and Western capacities. For him, the West is in fact stronger than "we believe". He is setting himself up for a rude awakening.

[@bondniko]

How will Ukrainians and Russians live together after all what's happened?

[@uabug]

The same way Israel lives with terrorists next door

[@dmitryletov8138]

Because NATO and US came to the game

[@alfonsasgrinevicius7477]

A pleasure to listen to a pleasant, well-educated intellectual. Cordial greetings from Lietuva Lithuania.

[@michaelhenault1444]

Brilliant as usual. Bravo. If you haven't read the two Stalin volumes.... they're are a great 👍 investment.

[@peterhall6656]

I must confess I had either forgotten or didn't know that South Korea was technically still are war with North Korea has done a remarkable job of winning the peace. It is these sorts of insights that Stephen brings to the table with a fluidity that only comes from decades of analysis and thought. I never bore of hearing him talk. His analysis is rooted in reality, not "principled" assertions of what should morally apply. Some people find this offensive but they occupy a different reality. An example is his explanation for the Ukranians not being able to regain all that Russia has taken - morally they are entitled to get it back but they would have to take Moscow and that isn't going to happen. Diplomats have been operating in this intellectual space for eternity.

[@volodymyrtkachuk2809]

There is no more argument in Ukraine to take territory back, but not to lose more. russia is still absolutely sure the US and Europe will eventually back away, and Ukraine will collapse. And there is still no resolve to prove putin wrong.

[@thejoelrooganexplosion2400]

Stephen Kotkin is gold

[@c.k.2]

Steven King

[@patmis1434]

First time watching Kotkin, not bad, some of the sentences he coined are so usable in day to day analysis that you know you are speaking with an expert that knows how to sell a story. Amazing

[@2Oldcoots]

So fascinating! Thank You very much.

[@QT-8]

Great

[@h2didenkov]

Despite Mr. Korkin's academic achievements, his worldview reeks of American exceptionalism. The uni-polar "my way or a highway" world is coming to an end.

[@timtrewyn453]

What is the metric of exceptionalism? If you look at GDP per capita among the major military powers, then it is the United States and will be for some time. And why is that? If the metric is nuclear warheads, then yes, proliferation is expanding a multi-polar world. Any nation on the border with or just offshore of Russia or China needs to consider a nuclear arsenal. America is a different, more commercial kind of empire than a military empire in terms of defense budget/GDP. Russia and China have to deliberately bias their economies to military production to increase their influence and/or achieve their goals. What reeks of dead soldiers and vodka is the psychopathic authoritarianism of Russia. A more benevolent Russian government would be enjoying the fruits and power of a population of 400 million to 500 million today. Instead, Russia is ruled for the benefit of the exceptional, at the expense of the despair of most Russians. I am a nobody from nowhere, but I am grateful to be an American.

[@1984isnotamanual]

we guarantee the Western world’s security. The UN wouldn’t work without us (it barely does its job now). So yea we are exceptional.

[@yourbestguess]

@@timtrewyn453ppp may be a better metric to compare economic power.

[@WanderingSword]

pretty much

[@ennediend2865]

​@@timtrewyn453 FULLY AGREED 👍 👍 👍 🇺🇲💪

[@gregparrott]

Mr. Kotkin's educational path was fascinating in its own right. His overall perspective is enlightening The 1994 ' Budapest Memorandum' between Ukraine and the U.S. and Great Britain didn't offer the security one thought that it would. It's fine to acknowledge a conversation, but I heard a couple hundred too many 'yeah', 'yep', 'right', 'um' responses from Mr. Wirjawan. This occurred so much that it became a distraction. It would be nice if he would mute his microphone until hearing his voice became relevant. Examples include: posing a question, and making a comment that's more than one word.

[@mlight7402]

I had the great fortunte to live in Peru, Spain, and Phillipines as a kid before settling in the USA. My view of the world widened, and I developed an uncommon compassion, as my friends tell me. Kotkin speaks of the wisedom gained by living abroad at least once in a person's life.

[@shiva369]

Calling him "the Jordan Peterson of history professionals" (not the exact wording, but whatever) isn't doing him the favor they think it is lol.

[@Holdfast1812]

It is for good reason that Peterson has been invited to speak throughout the entire world and is considered (and has been introduced) as "one of the most important minds of this century". He can't walk down a street in any major city in the world without being accosted and thanked profusely for improving or indeed saving people lives. While I don't agree with everything he says it is past time for the monumentally ignorant and the sociopaths to understand that until they can't walk down a street without people telling them how they have saved their lives, they are on completely the wrong end of the spectrum.

[@peterkiedron8949]

Kotkin should feel offended to be compared to that fraud from Canada.

[@Siroar99]

Masih berharap sempat wawancara dengan Chomsky. Terima kasih dengan episode spesial ini dan sebelum-sebelumnya. Good luck.

[@robertoraupp]

Fantastic interview. Thank you.

[@xk2702]

Such an intelligent man, really appreciate his well thought out analysis

[@jamescallahan7323]

I am a great admirer of Professor Kotkin. That said, in this video he speaks of having visited a museum in Vietnam highlighting horrific American atrocities committed during the Vietnam War. He speaks of being deeply impressed. He then speaks of how much the Vietnamese people like and admire America and their friendship toward American visitors. Hello! There seems to be a disconnect here. Perhaps because any museum in Vietnam addressing the war will be presenting a purely Communist North Vietnamese Politburo perspective. Apparently the current generation of Vietnamese people can decipher Communist Party propaganda somewhat better than Professor Kotkin.

[@kyttraus]

Are you saying that Americans and South Vietnam army didn't commit atrocities?