NY Style Pizza with Tipo “00” Flour?

I did an experiment where I made two dough balls, same measurements and ingredients, other than one dough ball was made with King Arthur Bread Flour, and the other was made with Anna Tipo 00 flour (imported from Italy).
The dough made with Tipo 00 flour was more cohesive and easier to work with. They tasted slightly different (although both very good and flavorful). The crust made with King Arthur flour had slightly larger air bubbles in the crust, although both were lightweight and strong. The crust made with 00 flour had a darker bottom, although a little bit lighter top of the crust.
Recipe for 1x12" pizza crust:
153 g flour
100 ml water
4.3 g table salt
.5 g instant yeast
2 g olive oil
1.5 g sugar

[@joshrush3378]

They both looks really good.

[@jlewicki16]

I've fallen down the rabbit hole as well. What I've settled on is a bromated all purpose flour that you'd get from a restaurant store (can't get bromated flour at consumer stores) like Restaurant Depot. High protein bread flour gives a bakery type pie (which is great), but to be honest my tastes have gravitated more towards the New Haven style recently. Proper NY style slices taste great because they are re-crisped when ordered, which is hard to do in one go (bake) and will take longer.

[@PizzaBro212]

Thanks for the comment. A while back I did a video on different types of American flour you may find interesting: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3OmfaFqqsaFrcUsi=wod106hKS1OdkGR1

[@PizzaBro212]

@@jlewicki16 also, I’m curious why you prefer bromated flour over non-bromated, unleached, etc?

[@jlewicki16]

All trumps is the "preferred" flour to use in New York as it gives the desired finished crust characteristics and the All Trumps flour used there also happens to be bleached and bromated. Does this mean that it HAS to be bleached and bromated? No, you can use just about any flour having 12 to 14.4% protein content to make a decent N.Y. style pizza.

[@jlewicki16]

Pizza making forum has several discussions of interest

[@PizzaBro212]

@@jlewicki16 Thanks, I believe I've seen those same comments on the forum(s). I don't doubt that most of the pizzeria's use bleached or bromated flour, as it is cheaper than unbleached flour, with negligible (or any at all) taste difference. I've been going to NYC about once a year, eating at 3-4 pizzerias each day. Last time I went I paid very close attention to the crust at each pizzeria--the flavor, salt content, density, etc. I know that Joe's (Carmine St., etc.) is probably the most trendy pizzeria in NYC, and I heard they use All Trumps flour, but one day I went to Patsy's, and then Joe's immediately after, and when I did that comparison, Joes crust was absolutely flavorless compared to Patsy's. Joe's crust looked great, great color, crispness, etc., but seriously tasted like cardboard after Patsy's. I wish I knew what type of flour Patsy's uses--I'll ask them next time I go, and hopefully they don't get mad for asking. Scarr's (Orchard St.) also has very flavorful crust, and I read they mill their own flour. With that being said, I don't know if Patsy's and Scarr's crust tastes better because of the flour, or different recipe altogether (more salt, sugar makes a big difference), but I'm going off on a tangent. I guess I'm just thinking out loud in concluding NYC pizzeria's crust varies greatly in taste, and some is better than others. So the question is is All Trumps a big contributing factor in taste, or are the various pizzeria's getting different taste results in their crust despite of using the same All Trumps flour. I have experimented with bleached/bromated flour and unbleached/unbromated flour, as well as different brands of each. And all I can really say is King Arthur bread flour is the most flavorful American flour (that I've found), and the Anna Tipo 00 Italian flour, which is probably very average for Italy, had as good a taste as King Arthur (although it was a slightly different taste). I would love to do a side-by-side experiment with All Trumps and King Arthur flour. If you happen to find a place to buy small amounts of All Trumps, let me know and I'll do an experiment. Thanks.

[@josha1536]

Good old W factor vs Gluten content. I spent like a week building a spreadsheet of gluten and w factor for every flour I could find (both American and Italian) I “may” end up using. That’s apart from the different Italian types, 00,0,1,2,3 ugh… sometimes I feel like I need to be a chemist to get the dough formation right. Maybe add some DMP to increase browning or do you already? Great content! Keep it up

[@PizzaBro212]

Thanks for the comment. Yeah, it's crazy how deep one can go experimenting with different flours. I have not yet experimented with DMP, for a couple reasons: First, usually my pizza crust does have more color. They were lighter in this video--sometimes my home oven really does seem to circulate heat weird and this was one of those times. The pan was 20° hotter than normal, yet the crust was light than normal. Not sure what's going on. And second, my pizza making background started with Pizza Napoletana, which uses an incredibly recipe of only four ingredients. I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible with NY style simply for philosophical purposes--when the old Italians immigrated to NYC, they kept their methods as similar to the methods they used in Southern Italy, compensating only as absolutely required. For example, they found American flour didn't bond as well as Tipo 00, so they added lard to get the dough to bond better. My own personal favorite NYC pizzeria, Patsy's, has been doing it the same way for almost 100 years, and I'm really just trying to recreate Patsy's. Sometime soon I'm going to get another outdoor oven that gets hotter than my home oven (I used to have an Ooni Fyra but it was just very annoying to use), and when I do, the crust should brown up just like Patsy's--as they use a coal oven that gets up to 1000°. With that being said, in your experiments, does DMP make the crust more of a golden color, or darker brown? A couple of pizzeria's in NY (Pronto's, Koronet) have really golden crust, and I'm not sure how they do it. Thanks.

[@joshrush3378]

I like to cover the crust in sauce and cheese. Then cook it.

[@jonathanmardukas5940]

Just wondering if you've considered using a small amount of semolina rimachinata with the bread flour or 00 and honey (maybe a tablespoon) in your dough? Fermentation time though does matter, and likely somewhere around the 60 hour mark could be best for such a small amount of yeast.

[@PizzaBro212]

I've never experimented with semolina. Maybe I will sometime, but at this point I'm mainly trying to re-create pizza from various NY style pizzeria's, and I know most don't use semolina for various reasons, cost being one reason. How does semolina react different from your experience? I do use sugar in all of these recipes, in part because sugar is easier to measure out, and also in part because I know most NY Pizzerias use sugar over honey (probably due to cost). Have you noticed a difference from using honey over sugar?

[@jonathanmardukas5940]

@@PizzaBro212 Well, with respect to the semolina rimachinata - the difference is important on that since it's milled much more finely than regular semolina - but from my experience it adds a better crunch to the crust, though you're right cost is likely a factor but to me it's worth the extra cost since i feel it tastes better too. As far as the honey the only REAL difference i've noticed is in the coloration of the crust being slightly darker and more of what I remember in my youth of NY pizza's., but thanks for the video and the reply, I really love the way you go about explaining what you're doing

[@PizzaBro212]

@@jonathanmardukas5940 Awesome, thanks for your insight. Many more experiments to come--and you've given me some more ideas.

[@jonathanmardukas5940]

@@PizzaBro212 Fantastic! Will look forward to them 👍

[@ccocala720]

Why do you use the top rack? Thank you!

[@joshrush3378]

It works. I didnt know so now I use 5 minutes on top then 5 minutes on the bottom. My pizza taste great crunchy.

[@ccocala720]

@@joshrush3378 Thank you for the tip!

[@PizzaBro212]

Hi, I did some experiments a couple months ago (it's uploaded to my channel), but basically when I used the bottom rack the bottom of the pizza burned before the top got cooked, and when I used the top rack with broiler the top of the pizza got cooked before the bottom got crisped, etc. The best results I've found is to max out the oven--it says 550° but if you let if pre-heat for about 10 minutes after it says "preheated" my pizza pan gets up to about 620°-640° and bake on the top rack. Doing it this way, I can bake the pizza in about 4:00-4:30 minutes, and the top is baked good and the bottom is crispy but not burned.

[@ccocala720]

@@PizzaBro212 I will have to try this for sure. I use a Saltillo floor tile for my pizza pan, I'll try this. Thank you!

[@Dejah2]

I see recipes pizza dough using 00 pizza flour and bread flour together

[@PizzaBro212]

@@Dejah2 yeah I’ve heard of some New York pizzerias doing that. I’ll try it sometime and make a video out of it.

[@Dejah2]

@@PizzaBro212 please do I need a recipe

[@PizzaBro212]

@@Dejah2 check out this video, I put recipes on there.

[@dannotary951]

Isn’t it the goal to make the best tasting pizza at home no matter the cost ? Because you can’t eat at the great places all the time ?

[@PizzaBro212]

@@dannotary951 it depends on the person I guess. It’s not so much about the money with me, but other things I probably didn’t articulate very well in the video. Bread flour is more authentic to New York style pizza than 00 flour. Also, with the bread flour, I can use it more freely with other things that we make at home, dinner rolls, bread, etc., and it’s just a lot easier to keep bread flour stocked in the pantry instead of 00 flour. If I’m running low on bread flour, I can cruise down the store and be back in a few minutes, whereas I have to order 00 flour online. And, depending on how often I use 00 flour (I don’t use often), I can have a hard time keeping it fresh. I’m going to do an experiment soon using 50% bread flour and 50% 00 flour mix, and see how it compares, as I know some New York pizzerias do this.

[@AltimaNEO]

​@@PizzaBro212I find type 00 flour at the grocery store now, I think made with American wheat. King Arthur and Bob's Red Mill both make it. But more surprisingly, I found store brand 00 flour at the local Safeway/Albertsons grocery store.